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#81
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In article ,
"David Gale" wrote: "Lloyd Parker" wrote: And of course, it wasn't necessary. Bush lied to us, or was incompetent and didn't know Saddam didn't have WMD. Either should disqualify him from being president. Or, potentially, becoming president does not, in fact, make one super-human. It should make him responsible. Perhaps Bush looked at the exact same intelligence the congress looked at, and made the decision that, given: a) Saddam is known to have had WMDs; b) Saddam has not shown that he has destroyed said WMDs, despite repeated demands by the UN that he do so; c) Saddam celebrated the 9/11 attack on the US by terrorists; So Bush was that easily duped? therefore, d) Saddam may want to help terrorists attack the US. e) He may not have destroyed his WMDs. f) He may, in fact, be funneling them to terrorists right now. and, since, g) terrorists were able to dramatically kill over 3,000 Americans in one morning with a few box cutters. well, h) terrorists with WMDs would be a Really, Really, Really Bad Thing, and so, especially because of b) (above), i) Saddam is a clear threat to the continuing safety not only of the US, but also the world. Gee, based on those arguments, you could say Mother Theresa was a threat. |
#82
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According to :
Confiscating cannon in town squares is a LOT like the idiotically useless strategy of sending troops to invade a country that had nothing to do with our horror story. Similarly, you must sleep well at night knowing that they "got" the writer of "Peace Train". -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#83
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According to Ian St. John :
Sorry, loser, but with age comes wisdom and a resistance to endless U.S. propaganda stories. Some of it is starting to be as ridiculed as Pravda was in Russian and probably should be renamed 'Truth". A retired Russian admiral once said "The only difference between Soviet and American propaganda is that the Soviet propaganda is much more obvious". -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#84
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"Ian St. John" wrote: David Gale wrote: "Lloyd Parker" wrote: "David Gale" wrote: Read the question that I was answering. He asked who, besides Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, and Cheney believed Saddam to be a threat. I pointed out that most of the high-profile Democrats are on record declaring him to be a threat. Your claim that this is invalid because the Democratic party doesn't have its own intelligence agency is a complete non-sequitor, as well as irrelevant. Or would you claim that Powell has his own intelligence agency? Rumsfeld? They work for Bush. They said what Bush wanted them to say. Which is why Powell, Rumsfeld, etc. have all said things that were rather damaging to the president's image. Of course! It's all clear now! It is impossible to even try to spin the truth about Bushes actions without bringing to like some facts that are damaging. The problem is not in their intent but the **** they have to work with.. Wow, this has *got* to be some of the best tin-foil-beanie thinking I've ever seen. Bush is so conniving, he's surrounded himself with people who are so extremely loyal to him that they'll lie for him, except they're incompetent enough at it that they can't do it well, except they did it so well that they convinced the vast majority of congressmen to ignore the intelligence they had access to and vote to authorize the use of force, as well as convincing many countries around the world to ignore *their* intelligence agencies and come fight with us. So, are they really good liars who suck at lying, or terrible liars who are great at it? |
#85
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wrote:
"David Gale" wrote: If I know I have a million dollars in my bank account, and then my next statement indicates that I don't, and the bank doesn't have any documentation about a withdrawal of funds, am I wrong, or the bank? Oh, that's easy: you're delusional. Or crooked. Or both. So, that's what Bush did, eh? Nah, stealing and lying about a million would be chump change to him. Let me clarify: by "I know", I meant that I have previous bank statements showing my million-dollar ballance. Complete with a record of deposit. So, I know I'm neither delusional or crooked, since I have documented evidence showing my million-dollar ballance. The bank, however, claims that I no longer have that ballance, despite their being able to show how the money left my account. Who is wrong, and whose responsibility is it to document where the money went? (If you're willing to accept the bank's position here, man, I wish I were your banker.) |
#86
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"Ian St. John" wrote:
Kevin Singleton wrote: Your Senators believed the threat to be "continuing". What does that make them? No. They were told by Bush that the threat was continuing. Too bad they believed his horsepuckey. ....instead of actually looking at the intelligence reports they all had access to, and trying to base their decision on the facts as we knew them at the time. Oh, wait, that's what they did. Congressmen have direct access to intelligence reports. To claim that they ignored these and relied solely on the word of the president is ludicrous, at best. |
#87
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On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:14:38 -0400, "Kevin Singleton"
wrote: the left's attempts to defend their foolish congressmen by saying they were tricked by George Bush! That makes 99 senators more stupid than Bush, Hmm. Are we know sure of that? According to conventional Bush doctrine, the experience has made them wiser. "There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee ... that says, fool me once ......... shame .. on ......... shame on you? ............... You fool me, you can't get fooled again." -- Bush, Tennessee, Sep. 17, 2002 |
#88
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#89
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In alt.home.repair Kevin Singleton wrote:
Just because a couple of Costa Ricans had to get back to the banana farm doesn't mean that the coalition has collapsed. Far from it, as the Poles and Australians have proven. You mean the Australia that has a whopping 300 troops there, and the Poland whose prime-minister has said they were "taken for a ride" by the US and are pulling out next year? Are those really the countries you want to use to illustrate the coalition building skills of the Bush administration? |
#90
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"Lloyd Parker" wrote in message
... As you said, it was with the UN. The UN (actually, I believe it was Russia) brokered a cessation of hostilities, contingent on Hussein complying with certain resolutions. He didn't, so hostilities were resumed with the authority granted by the US Congress. It's pretty simple, when you read the documents. Not under international law. There has to be more than a whim. Nope. There hasn't. It's a perk of being a superpower. That's what Hitler said about Poland. He had it, too, until he decided to continue on. Remember the policy of "appeasement". We don't do that, no more. -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#91
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wrote in message
... You mean the Australia that has a whopping 300 troops there, and the Poland whose prime-minister has said they were "taken for a ride" by the US and are pulling out next year? Are those really the countries you want to use to illustrate the coalition building skills of the Bush administration? A friend is a friend. I don't expect every dinky little third-world nation to contribute on the same level as the US. -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#92
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In alt.home.repair Kevin Singleton wrote:
You mean the Australia that has a whopping 300 troops there, and the Poland whose prime-minister has said they were "taken for a ride" by the US and are pulling out next year? Are those really the countries you want to use to illustrate the coalition building skills of the Bush administration? A friend is a friend. I don't expect every dinky little third-world nation to contribute on the same level as the US. You weren't talking about third world countries, you were talking about Poland and Australia, when Poland has said they were deceived by the US (Now would a friend say that? And would the US deceive its friends?), and Australia is only the 12th largest contributor of troops. If those are the best examples you could come up with, that either says something about you or about the coalition. In either case, it's not good. |
#93
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wrote in message
... You weren't talking about third world countries, you were talking about Poland and Australia, when Poland has said they were deceived by the US (Now would a friend say that? And would the US deceive its friends?), and Australia is only the 12th largest contributor of troops. If those are the best examples you could come up with, that either says something about you or about the coalition. In either case, it's not good. I still don't expect every nation to contribute on the same level as the US. Poland has committed to keeping 60% of their current contingency through 2005. That hardly sounds like a nation that believes they were deceived. I didn't invoke the listed nations, so you'll have to contact the original poster to confirm what it means to pull those nations out in the middle of a discussion. I'm simply saying that our friends have come on board and contributed. And, we appreciate their contributions. I think it's good, all the way 'round. -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#94
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: I'm not blaming them. I'm asking you if two men who were so easily tricked by President Bush are any more qualified than he to be president. I submit that they are not. In which case, Bush should surrender his office to Clinton. |
#95
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: So, you're willing to accept that 99 of America's most distinguished were stupid enough to be duped by George Bush, but you'd still accept two of them to run the country "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." --General Herman Goering, President of German Reichstag and Nazi Party, Commander of Luftwaffe during World War II, April 18, 1946. (This quote is said to have been made during the Nuremburg Trials, but in fact, while during the time of the trials, was made in private to an Allied intelligence officer, later published in the book, Nuremburg Diary.) |
#96
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wrote in message
... "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." --General Herman Goering, President of German Reichstag and Nazi Party, Commander of Luftwaffe during World War II, April 18, 1946. (This quote is said to have been made during the Nuremburg Trials, but in fact, while during the time of the trials, was made in private to an Allied intelligence officer, later published in the book, Nuremburg Diary.) I suppose you're trying to make a point. I've no idea what it is, though. The question remains, are you willing to replace President Bush with a couple of senators who have, by your own admission, proven less intelligent than the president? -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#97
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wrote in message
... In which case, Bush should surrender his office to Clinton. Perhaps you've heard of the 22nd Amendment? Well, perhaps not. -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#98
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: I suppose you're trying to make a point. I've no idea what it is, though. Of course not. I don't expect you to get it. I'm posting for to help others see through you and your ilk. |
#99
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." -- President Bush, Jan.28, 2003, in the State of the Union address. This is what the British government reported. If it's a lie, it's not from President Bush. FACT: This whopper was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler, the document carried the signature of an official who had been out of office for 10 years and referenced a constitution that was no longer in effect. The ex-ambassador who the CIA sent to check out the story is ****ed: "They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie," he told the New Republic, anonymously. "They [the White House] were unpersuasive about aluminum tubes and added this to make their case more strongly." |
#100
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: The major event was when we kicked his ass. At what cost, Kevin? At what cost to the nation? To the families of the dead? To America's standing in the world? To what end? What benefit was derived? How did we profit? "We kicked his ass" makes a lousy epitaph. |
#101
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: Ok. You claim it's a lie. Go ahead. Prove it's a lie. I'll wait here. What? I don't have to prove anything to abstain from war. You need to prove it is so. That's not a failure of the Bush administration, bud. Its use in Bush propaganda to immerse this nation in a bankrupting war most certainly is. |
#102
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: wrote in message ... In which case, Bush should surrender his office to Clinton. Perhaps you've heard of the 22nd Amendment? Well, perhaps not. Hey, you are the one implying that the President should be a good liar. Bush and his people suck at it. At least Clinton was a smart crook. |
#103
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wrote in message
... In article , "Kevin Singleton" wrote: The major event was when we kicked his ass. At what cost, Kevin? At what cost to the nation? To the families of the dead? To America's standing in the world? To what end? What benefit was derived? How did we profit? "We kicked his ass" makes a lousy epitaph. Hey, "if it saves one life", right? The cost is miniscule, compared to the cost of not taking action. Keep your blinders on. The rest of us will continue to drag your frightened, lazy, whining ass along towards the ultimate goal, which is to eradicate terrorism, and spread the blessings of liberty. How did we profit? We've liberated an entire nation, at minimal cost in American lives, and created a foundation for democracy and liberty in the Middle East. We've established a base of operations for ensuring stability of governments and Middle Eastern oil supplies, and constructed a basis for another nation in the region that's friendly to Western policy. We exercised our military might, and put the fear of God into Syria and Lybia, and given the North Koreans and Iranians a couple of things to consider. We did what we said we'd do, which is something that hadn't happened in the prior administration, and shown the world that we're willing to take an unpopular stance to enhance the security of our nation. We've produced an environment in which terrorists can, and will, raise their heads, so that we can more readily indentify and eradicate their organizations. We've created alliances with former enemies, and exposed corruption in the UN. I don't see a down side, except, perhaps, that my son has to spend more time in Qatar than he used to. -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#104
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wrote in message
... In article , "Kevin Singleton" wrote: I suppose you're trying to make a point. I've no idea what it is, though. Of course not. I don't expect you to get it. I'm posting for to help others see through you and your ilk. Best of luck to you. -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#105
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wrote in message
... In article , "Kevin Singleton" wrote: Ok. You claim it's a lie. Go ahead. Prove it's a lie. I'll wait here. What? I don't have to prove anything to abstain from war. You need to prove it is so. I didn't make the assertion, and your refusal to support your allegation indicates that you are incapable of doing so. That's not a failure of the Bush administration, bud. Its use in Bush propaganda to immerse this nation in a bankrupting war most certainly is. Continue to ignore the facts. Bush didn't start the war, but we'll happily keep dragging your sorry carcass along behind us, as we advance towards a more secure future. Party on. -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#106
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wrote in message
... In article , "Kevin Singleton" wrote: wrote in message ... In which case, Bush should surrender his office to Clinton. Perhaps you've heard of the 22nd Amendment? Well, perhaps not. Hey, you are the one implying that the President should be a good liar. Bush and his people suck at it. At least Clinton was a smart crook. I'm not the one suggesting we should subvert the law in order to reinstate a president who has served his maximum term. Clinton wasn't so smart. He couldn't even get Arkansas trailer trash to lay down for him. -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#107
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wrote in message ... In article , "Kevin Singleton" wrote: I'm not blaming them. I'm asking you if two men who were so easily tricked by President Bush are any more qualified than he to be president. I submit that they are not. In which case, Bush should surrender his office to Clinton. You mean to the guy who actually had the most votes - Gore. |
#108
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: The cost is miniscule, compared to the cost of not taking action $140,000,000,000 is MINISCULE? A dead son, father, brother, friend, is MINISCULE? As to the "cost of not taking action", your carnakian powers are considerably less than impressive, to say the least. I personally would have been much more likely to support your prognostication--and that of your boy, Bush--if you and/or he had been able to forsee the 9/11 attack as well as you seem to think you are able predict Saddam Hussein's future behavior. But that's how all the decisions are made in your world, right? Out of whole cloth, just like I said in one of my first posts in this thread. How long before Bush decides to take pre-emptive action against Americans like me who disagree with what he does? |
#109
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: We've liberated an entire nation, at minimal cost in American lives, and created a foundation for democracy and liberty in the Middle East. Show me the money. We've established a base of operations for ensuring stability of governments and Middle Eastern oil supplies, and constructed a basis for another nation in the region that's friendly to Western policy. Show me the money, or STFU. We exercised our military might, and put the fear of God into Syria and Lybia, and given the North Koreans and Iranians a couple of things to consider. Show me the friggin' money. further ignoRANT bullyboy blowhard BS snipped |
#110
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In article ,
"Kevin Singleton" wrote: I don't see a down side, except, perhaps, that my son has to spend more time in Qatar than he used to. Let us know when you go to your son's funeral. Don't forget: "We kicked ass" makes a lousy epitaph. |
#111
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In article ,
Some cross-posting asshole calling itself snivelled: In article , "Kevin Singleton" wrote: The cost is miniscule, compared to the cost of not taking action $140,000,000,000 is MINISCULE? A dead son, father, brother, friend, is MINISCULE? As to the "cost of not taking action", your carnakian powers are considerably less than impressive, to say the least. I personally would have been much more likely to support your prognostication--and that of your boy, Bush--if you and/or he had been able to forsee the 9/11 attack as well as you seem to think you are able predict Saddam Hussein's future behavior. But that's how all the decisions are made in your world, right? Out of whole cloth, just like I said in one of my first posts in this thread. How long before Bush decides to take pre-emptive action against Americans like me who disagree with what he does? Actually, it is long overdue. Perhaps they're waiting till after the pending election victory. The pens in the desert are built and waiting. The black helicopters are spinning up. You better hide Claude |
#112
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wrote in message
... $140,000,000,000 is MINISCULE? Compared to the cost of another attack like that suffered on September 11, 2001, it is a pittance. A dead son, father, brother, friend, is MINISCULE? Compared to the number of lives lost on September 11, 2001, or the lives lost in another other major military undertaking, it is as nothing. As to the "cost of not taking action", your carnakian powers are considerably less than impressive, to say the least. I personally would have been much more likely to support your prognostication--and that of your boy, Bush--if you and/or he had been able to forsee the 9/11 attack as well as you seem to think you are able predict Saddam Hussein's future behavior. Bush is not my boy. My boy is an airman in Qatar. Bush is my president. It's not necessary to predict Hussein's future behavior. It is necessary to prevent the possibility that Hussein would transfer WMD to terrorists to be used against US interests, at home, or abroad. Hussein's past behavior is adequate indication of his future behavior. But that's how all the decisions are made in your world, right? Out of whole cloth, just like I said in one of my first posts in this thread. I'm sure I don't recall your earlier posts. I've already scraped them off my shoe. We are at war, and I'm much happier to see Saddam Hussein deposed and incarcerated than I would be to see another US landmark crumbling and thousands more Americans dead. You don't seem to share that sentiment. How long before Bush decides to take pre-emptive action against Americans like me who disagree with what he does? Perhaps you'd better watch what you say. ;) -- Kevin -=#=- www.freerepublic.com |
#113
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Kevin Singleton wrote:
He had it, too, until he decided to continue on. Remember the policy of "appeasement". We don't do that, no more. Yes, by God, we had to stop Saddam before he conquered *all* of the middle east and them set his sights on Europe. |
#114
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"claudel" wrote in message ... Actually, it is long overdue. Perhaps they're waiting till after the pending election victory. Victory???? Bob |
#115
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Bob wrote:
"claudel" wrote in message ... Actually, it is long overdue. Perhaps they're waiting till after the pending election victory. Victory???? In a manner of speaking. Depends on whether you expect elections to be fair and accurate or just a means of 'legiimizing' a dictatorship. First, you force everyone to adopt bad technology under deadlines to make sure it comes in before the election.. http://www.fec.gov/hava/hava.htm Note: Make sure that it is developed by loyal republican companies and that the election oversight commitees have NO rights to view ( proprietary ) code that they then 'certify'. And make sure that local 'audits' at the polling station will not show up a discrepancy. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268819.shtml And http://www.alternet.org/election04/20052/ "Danciu sued for access to the Sequoia source code to see if it was flawed. He was told that the source code was considered a trade secret under Florida law, and that even LePore and her staff ( the election officials) were *not authorised to examine it*, on pain of criminal prosecution. " Make sure that no state can institute a paper trail to ensure a post election check.. couldn't find my reference to this but it is true And make sure that you cannot have an avalance of paper 'advance votes' by people that know damn well that the button they push may not actually register a vote for the candidate they choose. http://www.independent-media.tv/item...r%20Rep orted Then you can rig the election to give yourself a victory. http://www.alternet.org/story/16474 The Theft of Your Vote Is Just a Chip Away Rigging elections, by the way, is hardly even a 'conspiracy theory' in the U.S. where it has a LONG tradition. See http://wheresthepaper.org/ below for a nice illustration of the new RepubliCON election strategy.. but you may have to wait till late at night because either the Republicons are blocking it or it is way overloaded with people discovering for themselves how easy it is to rig an election that is entirely electronic and with no backup record to ensure against tampering. However, the alternet reference should also illustrate the issue. also http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00156.htm http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm http://www.blackboxvoting.org/access-diebold.htm#votes http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...¬Found=true About 30% of the voters will be using video terminals and have no record of who they really voted for. I mean Diebolt manufactures ATM machines and how hard is it to get a receipt from your atm??? And Bush pushed the "Help America Vote Act" which *mandates" video voting by 2008 and pays for the machines ( made by their republican buddies). He wasn't going to chance obvious vote tampering. High tech vote tampering is the way to go.. Then they went back and mandated video voting by 2004 elections! http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.2239: Sec 5a.. http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/sil...ey/6791541.htm Only California has really confronted the issue. http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/ks_dr...rs/decert1.pdf Voter tampering doesn't even have to be by corrupt officials! http://cryptome.org/hack-vote.htm "They were disturbingly successful. It was an "easy matter," they reported, to reprogram the access cards used by voters and vote multiple times. They were able to attach a keyboard to a voting terminal and change its vote count. And by exploiting a software flaw and using a modem, they were able to change votes from a remote location." And note that most video terminals are now equipped with modems because of 'errors' in election officials unable to bring in the electronic recording chip that didn't require online access. The fraud is easier to detect if you need to attach a keyboard to the machine itself. Note that the effort to make the vote 'uncountable' by the republicans is another clue. It ensures that the output of the code *proprietary to and only examined by the three republican companies that make the voting machines* will be the 'last word' not matter how egregious the tampering. http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...printstory.jsp and hand in hand with this legislation, the voting machine manufacturers ( all republican owned) plan to harass any state that tries to provide a paper trail. http://www.coastalpost.com/04/01/01a.htm And how this affects the voting can be easily demonstrated.. http://wheresthepaper.org/ Can you elect John Doe? And other games can be played such as offering alternative 'paper ballots' and then invalidating the votes by claiming error.. http://news.bostonherald.com/nationa...rticleid=28812 But the most telling point will be that, rather than eliminating fraud and vote tampering, the video voting terminals will undoubtably increase both the conflicts and the inabilty to resolve them. "1/13/04 Sun Sentinel, FL: the consequences of no paper audit trail - "Bogdanoff's closest competitor, Lauderdale-by-the-Sea Mayor Oliver Parker, told Broward elections officials that the results of the election wouldn't be legal until they counted all the undervotes by hand. And since machine ballots can't be counted by hand, Parker said the voting machines in South Florida are illegal. Broward County Canvassing Board Attorney Ed Dion dismissed the claim, saying the voting machines had been approved by state officials. A letter Monday from the office of state Secretary Glenda Hood, Florida's top election official, left the decision of how to perform the manual recount up to the local officials. The letter said state law was unclear on how to resolve the Broward dilemma, adding that state recount rules were currently being revised. Parker conceded after Broward's canvassing board chose to manually recount only the five invalid paper ballots cast by absentee -- and not revisit machine-cast ballots." Bob |
#116
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In article ,
Some whining **** posting as Ian St. John mournfully bleated: Some whinging asshole calling himeself "Bob" twittered: "claudel" wrote in message ... Actually, it is long overdue. Perhaps they're waiting till after the pending election victory. Victory???? From dictionary.com. vic·to·r n. pl. vic·to·ries 1. Defeat of an enemy or opponent. 2. Success in a struggle against difficulties or an obstacle. 3. The state of having triumphed. a _whole_ bunch of boring, whining crap deleted As some lefturd once said: "By Any Means Necessary" Claude |
#117
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"Ian St. John" wrote in message ... Bob wrote: "claudel" wrote in message ... Actually, it is long overdue. Perhaps they're waiting till after the pending election victory. Victory???? In a manner of speaking. Depends on whether you expect elections to be fair and accurate or just a means of 'legiimizing' a dictatorship. First, you force everyone to adopt bad technology under deadlines to make sure it comes in before the election.. http://www.fec.gov/hava/hava.htm Note: Make sure that it is developed by loyal republican companies and that the election oversight commitees have NO rights to view ( proprietary ) code that they then 'certify'. And make sure that local 'audits' at the polling station will not show up a discrepancy. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268819.shtml And http://www.alternet.org/election04/20052/ "Danciu sued for access to the Sequoia source code to see if it was flawed. He was told that the source code was considered a trade secret under Florida law, and that even LePore and her staff ( the election officials) were *not authorised to examine it*, on pain of criminal prosecution. " Make sure that no state can institute a paper trail to ensure a post election check.. couldn't find my reference to this but it is true And make sure that you cannot have an avalance of paper 'advance votes' by people that know damn well that the button they push may not actually register a vote for the candidate they choose. http://www.independent-media.tv/item...ory_desc=Under %20Reported Then you can rig the election to give yourself a victory. http://www.alternet.org/story/16474 The Theft of Your Vote Is Just a Chip Away Rigging elections, by the way, is hardly even a 'conspiracy theory' in the U.S. where it has a LONG tradition. See http://wheresthepaper.org/ below for a nice illustration of the new RepubliCON election strategy.. but you may have to wait till late at night because either the Republicons are blocking it or it is way overloaded with people discovering for themselves how easy it is to rig an election that is entirely electronic and with no backup record to ensure against tampering. However, the alternet reference should also illustrate the issue. also http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00156.htm http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm http://www.blackboxvoting.org/access-diebold.htm#votes http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...entId=A42085-2 003Aug10¬Found=true About 30% of the voters will be using video terminals and have no record of who they really voted for. I mean Diebolt manufactures ATM machines and how hard is it to get a receipt from your atm??? And Bush pushed the "Help America Vote Act" which *mandates" video voting by 2008 and pays for the machines ( made by their republican buddies). He wasn't going to chance obvious vote tampering. High tech vote tampering is the way to go.. Then they went back and mandated video voting by 2004 elections! http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.2239: Sec 5a.. http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/sil...ey/6791541.htm Only California has really confronted the issue. http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/ks_dr...rs/decert1.pdf Voter tampering doesn't even have to be by corrupt officials! http://cryptome.org/hack-vote.htm "They were disturbingly successful. It was an "easy matter," they reported, to reprogram the access cards used by voters and vote multiple times. They were able to attach a keyboard to a voting terminal and change its vote count. And by exploiting a software flaw and using a modem, they were able to change votes from a remote location." And note that most video terminals are now equipped with modems because of 'errors' in election officials unable to bring in the electronic recording chip that didn't require online access. The fraud is easier to detect if you need to attach a keyboard to the machine itself. Note that the effort to make the vote 'uncountable' by the republicans is another clue. It ensures that the output of the code *proprietary to and only examined by the three republican companies that make the voting machines* will be the 'last word' not matter how egregious the tampering. http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...te%3DcontentMo dules/printstory.jsp and hand in hand with this legislation, the voting machine manufacturers ( all republican owned) plan to harass any state that tries to provide a paper trail. http://www.coastalpost.com/04/01/01a.htm And how this affects the voting can be easily demonstrated.. http://wheresthepaper.org/ Can you elect John Doe? And other games can be played such as offering alternative 'paper ballots' and then invalidating the votes by claiming error.. http://news.bostonherald.com/nationa...rticleid=28812 But the most telling point will be that, rather than eliminating fraud and vote tampering, the video voting terminals will undoubtably increase both the conflicts and the inabilty to resolve them. "1/13/04 Sun Sentinel, FL: the consequences of no paper audit trail - "Bogdanoff's closest competitor, Lauderdale-by-the-Sea Mayor Oliver Parker, told Broward elections officials that the results of the election wouldn't be legal until they counted all the undervotes by hand. And since machine ballots can't be counted by hand, Parker said the voting machines in South Florida are illegal. Broward County Canvassing Board Attorney Ed Dion dismissed the claim, saying the voting machines had been approved by state officials. A letter Monday from the office of state Secretary Glenda Hood, Florida's top election official, left the decision of how to perform the manual recount up to the local officials. The letter said state law was unclear on how to resolve the Broward dilemma, adding that state recount rules were currently being revised. Parker conceded after Broward's canvassing board chose to manually recount only the five invalid paper ballots cast by absentee -- and not revisit machine-cast ballots." Well, we all know Teamp Chimpy never "won" the 2000 election other than the 5-4 vote on the Supreme Court, which brings up another question - why does anyone call Bush "President Bush"? He's not the frickin' president! He never won the election! The majority of voters voted for Gore. Yeah, I know how the electorial college works, but that did not come into play any more than the popular vote. The chimp was appointed. And now it looks like they're gonna cheat him in there again. Sheeks, what a perverse tragedy and failure of democracy. If there were only some other planet to go to to get away from fascist liars and cheaters, I'd be in heaven. KABONG!~!~!~ "If fascism came to America it would be on a program of Americanism." ~Huey P. Long Bob |
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claudel wrote:
In article , Some whining **** posting as Ian St. John mournfully bleated: Some whinging asshole calling himeself "Bob" twittered: "claudel" wrote in message ... Actually, it is long overdue. Perhaps they're waiting till after the pending election victory. Victory???? From dictionary.com. vic·to·r n. pl. vic·to·ries 1. Defeat of an enemy or opponent. 2. Success in a struggle against difficulties or an obstacle. You presume a 'victory' over reality, truth, and honor? I see. 3. The state of having triumphed. Triump over adversity is a good thing. Triump over democracy is not. a _whole_ bunch of boring, whining crap deleted I am merely stating the facts. They offer few other conclusions which you seem to recognise which is why you avoid trying to rebut it. As to boredom, that it the natural state of the unexamined mind such as your own. As some lefturd once said: This mean that you are a rightard? I guess this is the closest you come to a rational discussion on the matter. "By Any Means Necessary" That is the state of 'democracy' in the U.S. all right. We thought that the worst happened in 2000. Now they will eclipse that without even buying votes, intimidating voters, screwing up the voter lists, voting the graveyard, etc. Now it can be done conveniently by the push of a button. Thanks for confirming the state of decay in the founding principles. Claude |
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Elvis Kabong wrote:
"Ian St. John" wrote in message snip Well, we all know Teamp Chimpy never "won" the 2000 election other than the 5-4 vote on the Supreme Court, which brings up another question - why does anyone call Bush "President Bush"? He's not the frickin' president! He never won the election! Certainly, but you are working under the misapprehension that the U.S. is a democracy. Nothing in the U.S. election laws makes the popular vote binding. It is primarily a function of the fifty states (thus the electoral college system), which may or may not recognise the dominant vote of their own state citizens. The majority of voters voted for Gore. Yeah, I know how the electorial college works, but that did not come into play any more than the popular vote. The chimp was appointed. Certainly. One of the problems is that he is trying to be a 'war president' in order to gain legitimacy that the (s)election did not give him. And now it looks like they're gonna cheat him in there again. Sheeks, what a perverse tragedy and failure of democracy. The corporations have taken control through the rightwing neocons and the rise of fascism. They have no real interest in nations, only power. Economic power has taken over from the old territorial imperatives.. If there were only some other planet to go to to get away from fascist liars and cheaters, I'd be in heaven. Sweden? KABONG!~!~!~ "If fascism came to America it would be on a program of Americanism." ~Huey P. Long Bob |
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In article ,
Some meddling foreign dweeb, posing as Ian St. John cried the blues into too many newsgroups: claudel wrote: In article , Some whining **** posting as Ian St. John mournfully bleated: Some whinging asshole calling himeself "Bob" twittered: "claudel" wrote in message ... Actually, it is long overdue. Perhaps they're waiting till after the pending election victory. Victory???? From dictionary.com. vic·to·r n. pl. vic·to·ries 1. Defeat of an enemy or opponent. 2. Success in a struggle against difficulties or an obstacle. You presume a 'victory' over reality, truth, and honor? I see. You presume much. I provided a link to a dictionary. 3. The state of having triumphed. Triump over adversity is a good thing. Triump over democracy is not. Triump? a _whole_ bunch of boring, whining crap deleted I am merely stating the facts. They offer few other conclusions which you seem to recognise which is why you avoid trying to rebut it. As to boredom, that it the natural state of the unexamined mind such as your own. Facts? Even though you are not American, this fits... http://tinyurl.com/4mmjl As some lefturd once said: This mean that you are a rightard? I guess this is the closest you come to a rational discussion on the matter. "By Any Means Necessary" That is the state of 'democracy' in the U.S. all right. We thought that the worst happened in 2000. Now they will eclipse that without even buying votes, intimidating voters, screwing up the voter lists, voting the graveyard, etc. Now it can be done conveniently by the push of a button. "The Ends Justify the Means..." some other lefturd. Thanks for confirming the state of decay in the founding principles. Ummmm, whose founding principles? Claude |
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