Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Old September 19th 15, 01:25 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.


According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?


I'm likely mistaken, but my gut sense is that lower emissions
means lower performance, and lower mileage. My guess is that
the "fix" will be a downgrade of some kind.

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Old September 19th 15, 01:44 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/18/2015 5:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?


Can't speak for all states, but in California one of the first steps in
an emissions test is for the codes to be read via the OBD-II port. They
won't even proceed to the tailpipe test if there are incomplete
self-tests on the vehicle (I ran into this once when I brought a vehicle
in just after I changed the car battery).

It would be rather simple for the vehicle's computer to note that the
OBD-II port was active and to change the emissions system settings for
the next 30 minutes to an hour.

I suspect that most states with smog tests read the codes via the OBD-II
port prior to proceeding with tailpipe testing.

My brother-in-law had a Smog Pros franchise for many years and just sold
it last month. In some cases he would do pre-tests prior to hooking to
the state's computer so a vehicle could be repaired before being
labeled a gross polluter. A VW TDI would never pass a pre-test via the
EGA (exhaust gas analyzer unless the codes had been read first. But I
doubt he ever had done a pre-test on a VW TDI.

He told me that once he had a vehicle that was only slightly out of
compliance and he offered to repair it for $40. The owner declined,
saying he would fix it himself. Without an EGA that really isn't a good
idea, but the owner left then came back for his free retest under the
"Pass or Retest Free." So he did the retest and now the vehicle was so
far out of compliance that it was a gross polluter. The owner then
wanted to pay $40 for the repair and have it tested again but it was too
late. He could get the repairs done but the vehicle's status had been
sent to the state and now the owner had to take the car to a different
"Test-Only" smog check station and pay again. He also would have to now
get a smog check every year instead of every two years (that requirement
is no longer in effect).

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Old September 19th 15, 02:17 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,477
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.


According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?


Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if
the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and
the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of
'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts.
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Old September 19th 15, 02:40 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote:

On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald Bhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.


According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.


Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

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Old September 19th 15, 03:11 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Sep 2015
Posts: 83
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

"EwaldBöhm" wrote in message ...

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

My question is HOW did they name you ewald?
LOL





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Old September 19th 15, 03:36 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 34
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.


Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.


Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.


Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.
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Old September 19th 15, 03:39 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Mar 2008
Posts: 11,664
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote:


If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?


You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes.
The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer
pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing
will be able to tell.
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Old September 19th 15, 03:45 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 11,664
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/19/2015 9:17 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?


Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if
the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and
the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of
'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts.


Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil
change? Dirty air filter?

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Old September 19th 15, 05:12 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 1,665
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Bhm wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?


You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes.
The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer
pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing
will be able to tell.


Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".

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Old September 19th 15, 05:21 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 34
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:

Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove
that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a
dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just
flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your
VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected.

That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be
to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one
through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because
this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW
could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so
they should pay a fine as well".


When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners?


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