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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? My guess is that anytime something was connected to the diagnostic connector the car turned on all the emissions systems. I know that here in AZ they have been doing the emissions test for cars for quite a few years now by plugging into the diagnostic connector and reading the computer looking for pending codes that haven't turned on the CEL. If you have more then a couple pending codes you fail. My PT is a 2009 model and it's always been tested that way so the time frame is certainly doable. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? I found that interesting for two things. I assume the car's computer knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I assume the car's computer knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA. http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf Most use tailpipe testing. Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure on a dynomometer. Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's being tested for emissions. Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car knows it is being tested. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Will you have any choice? If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real" emissions, they will FAIL. If you care about air quality, you have to do that. Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. You want VW to FIX the problem consistently with the original driveablilty and economy. Since that's likely not possible, what do you do now? Force them to replace the whole car? Fix the emissions by reprogramming the computer (Let the air quality test people enforce owner compliance. Maybe require a recall complete document. Maybe require VW to supply a zillion adapters to make the tests right.) AND refund the owner the current (pre-disclosure) bluebook value of the vehicle...let that be the fine and paid to the people actually financially harmed? That sounds like a simple solution that puts the cash where it's needed and fixes the emissions and hits VW where it hurts. No fuss, no muss, no new laws, just enforce the existing ones. It's a win-win...except for VW. OR we could just Fine them billions and fritter it away wherever such fines are frittered? Do nothing and get a better gas mask? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I assume the car's computer knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA. http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf Most use tailpipe testing. Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure on a dynomometer. Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's being tested for emissions. Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car knows it is being tested. How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most of the states do not use a dyno any longer. Alaska, Arizona, California (in areas that require "enhanced" emissions testing), Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri (St. Louis), Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Oregon, Texas (Houston and Dallas/Ft. Worth), Utah (Salt Lake City), Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin, New Jersey, New York (in areas that require emissions testing), Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh and Philadelphia) and Virginia ALL use some type of OBD II testing, some use both OBD II and tailpipe. As to how it knows it's being tested. Simple, as soon as the OBD test link gets plugged into the port it starts asking the ECM which protocol it communicates with. Emissions testing uses a specific test protocol, that doesn't query ALL of the systems on the vehicle. Easy enough to tell the ECM - When this protocol is queried activate this programming. No different than the way software is set up in some cars to change the driving parameters based on different "modes" or valet keys or key fob type. -- Steve W. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I assume the car's computer knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA. http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf Most use tailpipe testing. Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure on a dynomometer. Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's being tested for emissions. Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car knows it is being tested. http://obdclearinghouse.com/index.php -- Steve W. |
THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS
"Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. " THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS. When there is not enough exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) there are more oxides or nitrogen produced because of the higher peak combustion temperature. The EGR valve, by lettting in exhaust which is oxygen starved atmosphere, lowers the burning tmperature of the mixture, and thus "burns" less nirogen into N2O. You had it backwards. |
THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS
I mean you mean that they only turn ON the EGR for the test.
I am not saying you are wrong in your mind (well) I am asking, did you mistype that ? But really the EGR reduces N2O, so logically ... |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? I'm likely mistaken, but my gut sense is that lower emissions means lower performance, and lower mileage. My guess is that the "fix" will be a downgrade of some kind. - .. Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .. www.lds.org .. .. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/18/2015 5:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? Can't speak for all states, but in California one of the first steps in an emissions test is for the codes to be read via the OBD-II port. They won't even proceed to the tailpipe test if there are incomplete self-tests on the vehicle (I ran into this once when I brought a vehicle in just after I changed the car battery). It would be rather simple for the vehicle's computer to note that the OBD-II port was active and to change the emissions system settings for the next 30 minutes to an hour. I suspect that most states with smog tests read the codes via the OBD-II port prior to proceeding with tailpipe testing. My brother-in-law had a Smog Pros franchise for many years and just sold it last month. In some cases he would do pre-tests prior to hooking to the state's computer so a vehicle could be repaired before being labeled a gross polluter. A VW TDI would never pass a pre-test via the EGA (exhaust gas analyzer unless the codes had been read first. But I doubt he ever had done a pre-test on a VW TDI. He told me that once he had a vehicle that was only slightly out of compliance and he offered to repair it for $40. The owner declined, saying he would fix it himself. Without an EGA that really isn't a good idea, but the owner left then came back for his free retest under the "Pass or Retest Free." So he did the retest and now the vehicle was so far out of compliance that it was a gross polluter. The owner then wanted to pay $40 for the repair and have it tested again but it was too late. He could get the repairs done but the vehicle's status had been sent to the state and now the owner had to take the car to a different "Test-Only" smog check station and pay again. He also would have to now get a smog check every year instead of every two years (that requirement is no longer in effect). |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of 'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote:
On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Will you have any choice? If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real" emissions, they will FAIL. If you care about air quality, you have to do that. Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. Some cut. Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in states with no testing. -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
"EwaldBöhm" wrote in message ...
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? My question is HOW did they name you ewald? LOL |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote: If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Will you have any choice? If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real" emissions, they will FAIL. If you care about air quality, you have to do that. Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. Some cut. Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in states with no testing. Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes. The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing will be able to tell. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 9:17 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of 'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts. Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil change? Dirty air filter? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote: If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes. The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing will be able to tell. Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". -- Steve W. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 12:12 PM, Steve W. wrote:
I don't know if the equipment doing the testing will be able to tell. Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. Ahhh, that will do it. The spotted owl breaths easier. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. May not be able to pass emmissions next year if the recall is not done. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). The "fix" may be a lot more involved than removing the "over-ride" code. It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
.. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote: Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under the umbrella of the EPA laws. VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars for cash" BS. -- Steve W. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I assume the car's computer knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA. http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf Most use tailpipe testing. Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure on a dynomometer. Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's being tested for emissions. Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car knows it is being tested. Don't know how other jurisdictions do it, but in Ontario the old "drive clean" test was a "rolling road" sniffer test at two speeds, with the car connected to the computer via the diagnostic port, but not accessing discrete codes. The new system does away with both the "rolling road" and the sniffer, meaning it can only "guess" or "deduce" if the NOX is within range - it cannot tell if the reduction catalyst is working because only the oxidizing catalyst is monitored by the secondary O2 sensor. It is POSSIBLE that VW implements the "over-ride" whenever a certain sequence of events is performed that are substantially the same as the initialization procedure for running the test (There is a perscribed sequence of events that MUST be performed to get a valid test result) (like 20 many seconds at a particular RPM, followed by another given period of time at another RPM) which, if performed during the normal process of driving would also put the system in "bypass" for the anticipated duration of the test. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 08:25:23 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote: On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? I'm likely mistaken, but my gut sense is that lower emissions means lower performance, and lower mileage. My guess is that the "fix" will be a downgrade of some kind. Then how do you explain the FACT that todays engines - 1)produce higher spedific output than engines in the past 2) Consume fewer gallons of gas per unit distance travelled AND 3) produce lower exhaut emissions -than the engines of only a few years back - muchless the "uncontrolled" engines of the 50s and 60s, and the early emission engines of the 70s and 80s? VW will just have to step up to the plate and spend in retrofits what they should have spent in initial design and production - plus. - . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 12:20 PM, Steve W. wrote:
. wrote: On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote: Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under the umbrella of the EPA laws. I've still yet to hear or read of a single case myself. VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express intent of violating the EPA laws. Yes, I know. But the EPA will be the only route by which this could be addressed given that many states don't even do testing. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:36:27 -0500, "." wrote:
On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote: If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Will you have any choice? If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real" emissions, they will FAIL. If you care about air quality, you have to do that. Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. Some cut. Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in states with no testing. Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. I will respectfully dissagree - with qualifications. In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap off the road. Annual safety checks in Ontario only affect commercial vehicles - and again there is a pretty high failure rate - and since selective enforcement has been in place the number of wheels coming off commercial vehicles and killing drivers of other vehicles has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. Enforcement is the key. As for emission testing - in the early years it had merit. There were a LOT of "gross poluters" on our roads - and it was very simple to defeat emission controls and change the calibration of an rngine (by adjusting timing, rejetting carbs etc) so that what left the manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same. With today's computer controlled vehicles, unleaded gas, etc, the VAST majority of vehicles pass, even when 20 years old - if reasonably maintained, and the OBD2 only testing is a total farce and nothing but a money-grab - Safety shecks for vehicle transfer and annually for commercial vehicles is both a consumer protection AND safety issue - and worth continuing. (along with "selective enforcement" on the roads - see a "questionable" vehicle - pull it over and inspect it for basic safety standards, and possible send for "secondary inspecion" by a registered safety inspection station. Bring it up to standard or take it off the road. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:45:01 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/19/2015 9:17 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote: Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of 'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts. Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil change? Dirty air filter? Not even for driving in the winter with bald summer tires. The insurance company HAS to pay up - but they can make it EXTREMELY difficult to afford insurance in the future - - - - - - - - - - - |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:12:41 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote: Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote: If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes. The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing will be able to tell. Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. Not any more. The ECU is linked to the VIN, and the OBD2 tester reads the VIN directly from the ECU IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue. I hope they don't follow the Microsoft Windows 10 model, where upgrades and patches will be installed automatically no matter what you do. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:34:45 -0500, "." wrote:
On 9/19/2015 12:20 PM, Steve W. wrote: . wrote: On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote: Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under the umbrella of the EPA laws. I've still yet to hear or read of a single case myself. Spot checking of modified vehicles at large "car shows" has been promised, and reported. Just because your car is registered as a 1927 model "T" ford does not mean it is exempt from emissions testing if it has a 2009 Chevy LT between the frame rails. Officially it needs to meet the requirements for the 2009 vehicle the LT was originally supplied for (determined by the engine number). VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express intent of violating the EPA laws. Yes, I know. But the EPA will be the only route by which this could be addressed given that many states don't even do testing. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
wrote:
Then how do you explain the FACT that todays engines - 1)produce higher spedific output than engines in the past 2) Consume fewer gallons of gas per unit distance travelled AND 3) produce lower exhaut emissions -than the engines of only a few years back - muchless the "uncontrolled" engines of the 50s and 60s, and the early emission engines of the 70s and 80s? This is almost entirely the result of fuel injection combined with accurate feedback control. Feedback control makes a huge improvement in the efficiency of the engine and that means both lower emissions and more power. And, it's true that it took the emission control regulations to force the car manufacturers to start thinking out of the box at new ideas to try and improve efficiency back in the seventies. Had it not been for the emission control regulations, we might never have got the engine improvements that make engines so much more efficiency today. BUT, it's true that many of the other tricks used to get emissions numbers down have been at the expense of performance, and many of them have been just plain attempts to game the system. There is a very longstanding tradition of gaming the system, dating back to air pumps back in the seventies which did in fact improve the efficiency of early catalytic converters, but mostly just diluted the exhaust so that the concentration of emissions was reduced. The actual amount of emission was the same, but the numbers recorded at the smog station were lower. This current attempt on VW's part is not something new in isolation, this is part of a tradition going back forty years now. It shouldn't surprise anyone, and it's certainly not anything specific to VW. VW will just have to step up to the plate and spend in retrofits what they should have spent in initial design and production - plus. Odds are that instead they will take the route of just leaving the controller in "low emissions" mode all the time, which probably will affect performance. Part of how that will work out will depend on what they were actually doing to bring the numbers down, and we don't know that without actually measuring it or looking at the controller source. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:57:04 -0500, "." wrote:
On 9/19/2015 12:46 PM, wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:36:27 -0500, "." wrote: Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. I will respectfully dissagree - with qualifications. In the early years of safety checking, at least in Ontario, the initial passs rate was quite low - and the requirement that a cat pass a safety check when changing ownership took a LOT of dangerous crap off the road. If only there were any documentation to support that claim. Well, as a mechanic back then, I can assure you I failed a LOT of dangerous cars, repaired many of them, and scrapped almost as many. Annual safety checks in Ontario only affect commercial vehicles - and again there is a pretty high failure rate - and since selective enforcement has been in place the number of wheels coming off commercial vehicles and killing drivers of other vehicles has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. Enforcement is the key. My comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars. Which here in Ontario only require safety checks for transfer, or if older than a certain age, depending on the insurance company, to get or maintain insurance coverage. As for emission testing - in the early years it had merit. There were a LOT of "gross poluters" on our roads - and it was very simple to defeat emission controls and change the calibration of an rngine (by adjusting timing, rejetting carbs etc) It still is. Tell me how the average hack can adjust the timing on his 2002 Ford Taurus 3.0 32 valve V6??? Or even adjust the mixture? so that what left the manufacturer and what was on the road were not necessarilly the same. And those that in any manner overrode emission controls were an insignificant percentage of the motoring public. You would be surprised how many Olds 350 rockets back in the mid seventies had the timing significantly altered to eliminate overheating when pulling a trailer, or how many "super six" mopars had the carburetion and timing adjusted off-spec to get rid of "driveability problems" - and how many "lean burn" mopars were "converted" to non-lean-burn without changing the camshaft (which was required if you were going to be anywhere CLOSE to passing emissions) and how many AIR systems were removed from GM engines - and how many EGR systems were disconnected ---- just for starters. (under the mistaken idea that they could get better mileage by simply removing them) The numbers WERE significant. With today's computer controlled vehicles, unleaded gas, etc, the VAST majority of vehicles pass, even when 20 years old - if reasonably maintained, and the OBD2 only testing is a total farce and nothing but a money-grab - Safety shecks for vehicle transfer and annually for commercial vehicles is both a consumer protection AND safety issue - and worth continuing. (along with "selective enforcement" on the roads - see a "questionable" vehicle - pull it over and inspect it for basic safety standards, and possible send for "secondary inspecion" by a registered safety inspection station. Bring it up to standard or take it off the road. Again, my comment referred only to individual owned passenger cars. And "selective enforcement" can be, and is, applied to private passenger vehicles as well - at least here in Ontario. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
wrote:
VW will just have to step up to the plate and spend in retrofits what they should have spent in initial design and production - plus. And the resulting diesels may be a lot less desired. The diesel differences between testing and reality are not a new thing. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...y-diesels.html |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Steve W. wrote:
. wrote: On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote: Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under the umbrella of the EPA laws. VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before under the "cars for cash" BS. Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance will be terrible. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
mike posted for all of us...
OR we could just Fine them billions and fritter it away wherever such fines are frittered? Just like all the fines imposed on Co's and people. Found money for the gov't. Like the tobacco Co's the states get all this money and what exactly do they do with it. If education is it having an impact? Should be for the medical costs. Instead that is spread amongst the ratepayers or taxpayers through third party payers. How to fix IDK... -- Tekkie |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
In article ,
Ewald Böhm wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM.../VW-Caught-Che ating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...oftware-to-che at-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? I'd like to know how the EPA found out about this hack |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
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