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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Tom Miller wrote:
"Mayayana" wrote in message ... Arrests will do nothing. I don't see how you can look at it that way. If executives were held crimially liable for corporate law breaking then very little of it would happen. It's the difference between *maybe* risking their bonus and definitely risking years in jail. As long as the corporation is treated as an able, non-human party, and punished financially, that's an implicit statement that we as a society recognize no legal or ethical requirements for people doing business. Murder is illegal but people still do it. But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the crime. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote: On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is in the billions and for what? I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this? Do you think it was a small cadre? Or basically everyone? In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50 engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test, and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know. And every one of them should experience serios prison time. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
Murder is illegal but people still do it. But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the crime. But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little deterrent. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote: Murder is illegal but people still do it. But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the crime. But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little deterrent. We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious prison time. I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US crime. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
Bob F wrote:
Bob F wrote: NoSpamForMe wrote: On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt. I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind resistance to push against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh! Wow! Cluelessness at it's best! Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide. Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250 Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250 Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap. I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down. There might've been some cooling also. An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer money. -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
Tony Hwang wrote:
Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250 Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap. The MB and BMW diesels both use the exhaust fluid. That's not to say that they aren't cheating something somewhere in the control system, just that the main reason why VW cheated isn't an issue with the MB and BMW diesels. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
| Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel
engines | is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on | 11 million diesel engines worldwide. | I saw the NYT version of that. It casts the whole issue in a somewhat less extreme light. It turns out most of the cars are in Europe, where despite environmentalist idealism being high, regulations are light and testing is limited. So while their scam in the US seems to be pure idiocy, in Europe it comes across as something less extreme. A questionable way to increase gas mileage rather than an outright lie and illegal deception. Contemptible, but not necessarily guaranteed to be self-destructive, as it seems in the US. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote: You would still need to measure actual emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements. I think this makes sense. The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever. In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch". Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance (i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the NOx emissions. Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings, VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions be damned. There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their wallet out on the kitchen table without checking. The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever). The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house guest stole money out of your wallet. Actually the fuel mapping would be the reverse of that. Running rich on a diesel reduces NOx because the extra fuel cools the burn. Lean it out and create more heat and you get higher NOx. This is the reason why 99% of the VW owners bragged about getting better mpg numbers than the EPA tests as well. -- Steve W. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Bob F wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote: Murder is illegal but people still do it. But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the crime. But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little deterrent. We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious prison time. I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US crime. Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners bragged about. The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would be revoked. VW might just decide to leave the market in the US. -- Steve W. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote: On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is in the billions and for what? I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this? Do you think it was a small cadre? Or basically everyone? In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50 engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test, and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know. The only real change is in the code map in the ECM. They basically had a "normal" map for constant driving and a "test map" that only engaged when undergoing tests. I would bet it took fewer that 10 people to do the entire thing. You need to consider that the engineers already know how to make the engine run and get good mileage and wrote the software to do that. However that programming didn't pass the EPA testing. The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about anywhere but is likely very simple. Something like IF the engine is running at XXX rpm but there is a connector in the OBD test port, with no input from the steering rack and the parking brake is set, add 2% fuel enrichment to the drive cycle. Extra fuel cools the fuel burn and drops the NOx to legal limits. Car passes. -- Steve W. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
| But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing
the | crime. | But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little | deterrent. By that logic there is no role in society for a criminal justice system. You paint it as just black and white. There's a far bigger group in between -- People who will do immoral things only if they know there's no risk and no one will see them. Those are two factors: personal conscience and risk of suffering. Risk is also related to one's position. A multi-millionaire executive with a family has more to lose than most people. Isn't public civility really a combination of personal conscience and risk of punishment? That's why we have locks on doors and windows. The doors can be kicked in fairly easily. Windows can be broken. But the need for force deters most people. They have to be more aggressive and more intent on stealing in order to break in. Most people will be stopped by their conscience, their fear, their common sense strategy to avoid suffering, or all those things, before breaking into your house. On the other hand, if you leave your laptop sitting on your front steps, someone passing by doesn't need to be aggressive or intrude. They can also rationalize that maybe you meant to give it away. A lot more people will take that laptop than will break in to take it. Much of what we do in shame we do with such a rationalization. Our thinking mind lies to itself to justify satisfying our impulse. Some people are better at lying to themselves than other people. (Which is the essence of true laziness.) But we all do it in degrees. The less adept we are at lying to ourselves, the less likely we are to do something we consider wrong if there's a risk that someone else may bear witness. We have to be lying to ourselves on the level of psychosis to ignore the risk of punishment or other ramifications. The CEO of VW is so far refusing to acknowledge guilt on his own part, but if he were risking jail time, along with his sidekicks and yes-men, it's a good bet the software cheat never would have happened. He's almost certainly a man obsessed with wealth and power to have got to where he is. Jail is the opposite of that. He's almost certainly not fully psychotic. He just imagines he's out to "win" at something. That kind of obsession helps people to lie to themselves. But it's likely that he wouldn't have put his position at such risk if it meant risking all of his chips for just a slightly bigger win. Even if he doesn't feel shame, the threat of jail would probably temper his obsession. As things stand now, it's easy for the people at the top to lie to themselves because the justice system is pretending that the corporation itself -- a mere legal/financial/tax entity -- was the perpetrator of the crime. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:19:10 -0500, Ewald Böhm
wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? The CEO of VW is stepping down. http://preview.alturl.com/jxppg It's too bad he's German. We might run out of candidates for U.S. President. -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 9:36 AM, . wrote:
On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote: If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Will you have any choice? If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real" emissions, they will FAIL. If you care about air quality, you have to do that. Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. Some cut. Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in states with no testing. Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. The VW case is a conspicuous textbook example of how and why emissions testing is a doomed to failure approach similar to solving drug abuse by arresting individual users. As even the admitted guilty party have undeniably exposed, emissions control MUST be properly addressed at the point of manufacture. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 9:36 AM, . wrote:
On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote: On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote: If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Will you have any choice? If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real" emissions, they will FAIL. If you care about air quality, you have to do that. Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. Some cut. Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in states with no testing. Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. The VW case is a conspicuous textbook example of how and why emissions testing is a doomed to failure approach similar to solving drug abuse by arresting individual users. As even the admitted guilty party have undeniably exposed, emissions control MUST be properly addressed at the point of manufacture. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original EPA standards I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea system. Either will be expensive. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:
The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment, regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws covering things like this, then it's open season and and a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners, going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go further. Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment that deters crime, but the certainty of it. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide. And the CEO stepped down today. VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system (which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it). |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:08:40 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50 engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test, and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know. I don't know how VW works, but, in one newspaper, they "speculated" that this kind of cheat had to be approved at the top level. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:23:43 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about anywhere but is likely very simple. But don't you think the code, which clearly had legal implications known to all involved, would have to be signed off at the highest level? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 07:03:25 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:
They shouldn't be parking in the special parking spaces for low emission vehicles. That's an interesting observation! |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
"but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR
the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load." Not so sure about that. There is probably an exemption for law enforcement purposes. Plus the fact it is really not worth copyrighting. It's not like Microsoft Office or anything, all it does is engine control. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Winston_Smith wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote: I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original EPA standards I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea system. Either will be expensive. The cars can meet the standards as built. The only real change would be that the mpg numbers will fall to the original EPA numbers. The only other thing will be an increase in the amount of times the systems burn the residuals in the trap. -- Steve W. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/23/2015 10:00 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Bob F wrote: VW might just decide to leave the market in the US. Doubt they will walk away from a huge market where they have been well established. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/23/2015 9:00 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Bob F wrote: Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote: Murder is illegal but people still do it. But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the crime. But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little deterrent. We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious prison time. I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US crime. Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners bragged about. The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would be revoked. VW might just decide to leave the market in the US. It has been reported that less than one in twenty-two problem cars were actually sold in the U.S. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
"Winston_Smith" wrote in message
... On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote: The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment, regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws covering things like this, then it's open season and and a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners, going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go further. Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment that deters crime, but the certainty of it. My crim. prof didn't believe much in deterrence and pointed out that in Merry Olde England "Pickpockets picked pockets at the hangings of pickpockets." People were so entranced by watching someone *else* dying that they became excellent targets for pickpockets. It's also been shown that it's very hard to deter crimes of passion because people are often way out of their minds when they kill lovers, spouses, children, etc. -- Bobby G. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Virtually all marketing material is a lie. Did you really think that shopvac you bought at McLowesDepotBigBoxSuperMart has a 6HP motor on it? Did you really think that $49 TV antenna can pull in stations from 200 miles away? Did you really think your new car would actually get the mpg advertised on the sticker? You really think your extended warranty will cover everything? Did you really think Dick Network would deliver all those channels for $19.95 / mo? So what if VW stretches the truth a bit, they ***all*** do. Do you know how to tell if a car salesperson is lying? Their lips are moving. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
"Dean Hoffman" wrote in
: Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250 Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap. I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down. There might've been some cooling also. An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer money. it was to cool the shafts and blades so the oil wouldn`t coke up. not spin down. KB |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Robert Green wrote:
"Winston_Smith" wrote in message ... On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote: The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment, regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws covering things like this, then it's open season and and a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners, going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go further. Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment that deters crime, but the certainty of it. My crim. prof didn't believe much in deterrence and pointed out that in Merry Olde England "Pickpockets picked pockets at the hangings of pickpockets." People were so entranced by watching someone *else* dying that they became excellent targets for pickpockets. It's also been shown that it's very hard to deter crimes of passion because people are often way out of their minds when they kill lovers, spouses, children, etc. Corporate crime is not in that category. Serious prison terms for corporate officers and anyone else involved would probably be a strong deterant. Corporate shortcuts that result in multiple deaths should alway result in strong prosecutions. Just like presecution of corporation officers for hiring illegal immigrants is the only real solution to the problem the Repubs whine so much about. Way cheaper than building the wall they want. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:25:51 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote: Bob F wrote: Bob F wrote: NoSpamForMe wrote: On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt. I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind resistance to push against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh! Wow! Cluelessness at it's best! Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide. Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250 Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap. BMW and MB use DEF - I believe it wsas only Volkswagen's "clean diesel technology" that did not - and now we know how THAT worked. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 05:59:50 -0500, "Dean Hoffman"
wrote: Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250 Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap. I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down. There might've been some cooling also. An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer money. Toyota's solution was a water cooled turbo. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote: Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide. And the CEO stepped down today. VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system (which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it). The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and tell us they did not know about it, and a few janitors will go to jail. Oh, and profits might go down a bit....... White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent.. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 2015-09-23, Bob F wrote:
Really!! Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been theft, extortion, murder, and slavery. Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves, thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.) Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site: Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation. Massa plans to whip their asses. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.) NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/23/2015 8:21 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
On 2015-09-23, Bob F wrote: Really!! Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been theft, extortion, murder, and slavery. Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves, thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.) This reads more like a comedy routine than a serious protest. Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site: Screw the lead, asbestos and dioxin, full speed ahead. Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation. Massa plans to whip their asses. That much is true, Felipe Massa always hopes to beat every driver. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:47:55 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote: On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote: You would still need to measure actual emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements. I think this makes sense. The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever. In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch". Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance (i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the NOx emissions. Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings, VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions be damned. There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their wallet out on the kitchen table without checking. The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever). The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house guest stole money out of your wallet. Yes. The real mystery here is who implemented this and who all knew about it. I think they have to run the cars on test tracks for 50 or 60K miles to verify they system holds up but even if not, surely during development of any engine system they must run them fully instrumented for quite a while to see what the "real world" results look like as well as how well the "lab strategy" works in the field. Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild" but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the "switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they should be. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
Ewald Böhm wrote in :
My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? This video says that the VW TDI meets all California and US & Europe requirements! https://youtu.be/GzuFXeO48Rw?t=635 |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:07:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild" but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the "switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they should be. I have to agree with you. Notice what Winterkorn said, which was that he wasn't aware, "to his knowledge", that he cheated. Hmmmm... And Clinton didn't have sexual relations with that woman either. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote: On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote: Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide. And the CEO stepped down today. VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system (which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it). The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and tell us they did not know about it, and a few janitors will go to jail. Oh, and profits might go down a bit....... White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent.. Maybe this will be the time for a change?? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen wrote:
Ashton Crusher wrote in : That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business. What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more* fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx emissions. So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if that's the case. When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were? Backwards. Less fuel = hotter burn in the combustion chamber = higher NOx numbers It shows up as vehicles that get better EPA mileage numbers than the sticker says because they are burning less fuel. To correct the issue they need to increase the fuel to the engine to cool the combustion temperatures. The end result will be that the EPA MPG numbers will be closer to reality because the engine is now using the fuel to keep the NOx numbers down. The only "bad" side effect will be that the particulate trap and the NOx catalyst will need to burn more often to regenerate. OR VW could come up with a DEF retrofit to drop the NOx numbers. -- Steve W. |
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