Tom Miller wrote:
"Mayayana" wrote in message
...
Arrests will do nothing.

I don't see how you can look at it that way. If
executives were held crimially liable for corporate
law breaking then very little of it would happen.
It's the difference between *maybe* risking their
bonus and definitely risking years in jail.
As long as the corporation is treated as an able,
non-human party, and punished financially, that's
an implicit statement that we as a society recognize
no legal or ethical requirements for people doing
business.



Murder is illegal but people still do it.

But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the
crime.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something
like that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people
work on projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The
cost t fix it is in the billions and for what?

I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?

Do you think it was a small cadre?
Or basically everyone?


In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to
50 engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build,
test, and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would
probably have no idea, just another part. Higher level in
engineering would know.

And every one of them should experience serios prison time.

On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:


Murder is illegal but people still do it.

But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the
crime.


But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:


Murder is illegal but people still do it.

But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
doing the crime.


But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.

We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious
prison time.

I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions
than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US
crime.

Bob F wrote:
Bob F wrote:
NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Tony Hwang wrote:

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

The MB and BMW diesels both use the exhaust fluid. That's not to say that
they aren't cheating something somewhere in the control system, just that
the main reason why VW cheated isn't an issue with the MB and BMW diesels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

| Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel
engines
| is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to
cheating on
| 11 million diesel engines worldwide.
|

I saw the NYT version of that. It casts the whole
issue in a somewhat less extreme light. It turns out
most of the cars are in Europe, where despite
environmentalist idealism being high, regulations are
light and testing is limited.

So while their scam in the US seems to be pure idiocy,
in Europe it comes across as something less extreme.
A questionable way to increase gas mileage rather than
an outright lie and illegal deception. Contemptible, but
not necessarily guaranteed to be self-destructive, as it
seems in the US.

Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

You would still need to measure actual
emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.

I think this makes sense.

The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever.

In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch".

Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but
that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance
(i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW
engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the
NOx emissions.

Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings,
VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions
be damned.

There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing
money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their
wallet out on the kitchen table without checking.

The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever).

The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house
guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house
guest stole money out of your wallet.


Actually the fuel mapping would be the reverse of that. Running rich on
a diesel reduces NOx because the extra fuel cools the burn. Lean it out
and create more heat and you get higher NOx.

This is the reason why 99% of the VW owners bragged about getting better
mpg numbers than the EPA tests as well.

--
Steve W.

Bob F wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:

Murder is illegal but people still do it.
But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
doing the crime.


But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.

We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious
prison time.

I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions
than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US
crime.





Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners
bragged about.

The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars
in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no
longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would
be revoked.

VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.

--
Steve W.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
in the billions and for what?
I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?

Do you think it was a small cadre?
Or basically everyone?


In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50
engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test,
and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably
have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know.

The only real change is in the code map in the ECM. They basically had a
"normal" map for constant driving and a "test map" that only engaged
when undergoing tests. I would bet it took fewer that 10 people to do
the entire thing.

You need to consider that the engineers already know how to make the
engine run and get good mileage and wrote the software to do that.
However that programming didn't pass the EPA testing.

The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about
anywhere but is likely very simple.
Something like
IF the engine is running at XXX rpm but there is a connector in the OBD
test port, with no input from the steering rack and the parking brake is
set, add 2% fuel enrichment to the drive cycle.

Extra fuel cools the fuel burn and drops the NOx to legal limits. Car
passes.


--
Steve W.

| But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing
the
| crime.

| But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
| deterrent.

By that logic there is no role in society for
a criminal justice system. You paint it as
just black and white.

There's a far bigger group in between -- People
who will do immoral things only if they know there's no
risk and no one will see them. Those are two factors:
personal conscience and risk of suffering. Risk is also
related to one's position. A multi-millionaire executive
with a family has more to lose than most people.

Isn't public civility really a combination of personal
conscience and risk of punishment? That's why we
have locks on doors and windows. The doors can be
kicked in fairly easily. Windows can be broken. But the
need for force deters most people. They have to be
more aggressive and more intent on stealing in order
to break in. Most people will be stopped by their
conscience, their fear, their common sense strategy
to avoid suffering, or all those things, before breaking
into your house.

On the other hand, if you leave your laptop sitting
on your front steps, someone passing by doesn't
need to be aggressive or intrude. They can also
rationalize that maybe you meant to give it away.
A lot more people will take that laptop than will break
in to take it.

Much of what we do in shame we do with such a
rationalization. Our thinking mind lies to itself to
justify satisfying our impulse. Some people are better
at lying to themselves than other people. (Which is
the essence of true laziness.) But we all do it in
degrees. The less adept we are at lying to ourselves,
the less likely we are to do something we consider
wrong if there's a risk that someone else may bear
witness. We have to be lying to ourselves on the
level of psychosis to ignore the risk of punishment
or other ramifications.

The CEO of VW is so far refusing to acknowledge
guilt on his own part, but if he were risking jail time,
along with his sidekicks and yes-men, it's a good
bet the software cheat never would have happened.
He's almost certainly a man obsessed with wealth
and power to have got to where he is. Jail is the
opposite of that. He's almost certainly not fully
psychotic. He just imagines he's out to "win" at
something. That kind of obsession helps people to
lie to themselves. But it's likely that he wouldn't have
put his position at such risk if it meant risking all of
his chips for just a slightly bigger win. Even if he
doesn't feel shame, the threat of jail would probably
temper his obsession.

As things stand now, it's easy for the people at
the top to lie to themselves because the justice
system is pretending that the corporation itself --
a mere legal/financial/tax entity -- was the perpetrator
of the crime.

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:19:10 -0500, Ewald Böhm
wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

The CEO of VW is stepping down.
http://preview.alturl.com/jxppg
It's too bad he's German. We might run
out of candidates for U.S. President.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On 9/19/2015 9:36 AM, . wrote:
On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.

The VW case is a conspicuous textbook example of how and why
emissions testing is a doomed to failure approach similar to solving
drug abuse by arresting individual users. As even the admitted guilty
party have undeniably exposed, emissions control MUST be properly
addressed at the point of manufacture.

On 9/19/2015 9:36 AM, . wrote:
On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.

The VW case is a conspicuous textbook example of how and why
emissions testing is a doomed to failure approach similar to solving
drug abuse by arresting individual users. As even the admitted guilty
party have undeniably exposed, emissions control MUST be properly
addressed at the point of manufacture.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards

I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.

Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:08:40 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50
engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test,
and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably
have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know.

I don't know how VW works, but, in one newspaper, they "speculated" that
this kind of cheat had to be approved at the top level.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:23:43 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about
anywhere but is likely very simple.

But don't you think the code, which clearly had legal implications
known to all involved, would have to be signed off at the highest
level?

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 07:03:25 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:

They shouldn't be parking in the special parking spaces for
low emission vehicles.

That's an interesting observation!

"but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR
the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load."

Not so sure about that. There is probably an exemption for law enforcement purposes.

Plus the fact it is really not worth copyrighting. It's not like Microsoft Office or anything, all it does is engine control.

Winston_Smith wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards

I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.

The cars can meet the standards as built. The only real change would be
that the mpg numbers will fall to the original EPA numbers. The only
other thing will be an increase in the amount of times the systems burn
the residuals in the trap.

--
Steve W.

On 9/23/2015 10:00 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Bob F wrote:


VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.

Doubt they will walk away from a huge market where they have been well
established.

On 9/23/2015 9:00 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:

Murder is illegal but people still do it.
But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
doing the crime.

But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.

We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some
serious prison time.

I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious
prosecutions than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen.
This is not just a US crime.

Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners
bragged about.

The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars
in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no
longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would
be revoked.

VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.

It has been reported that less than one in twenty-two
problem cars were actually sold in the U.S.

"Winston_Smith" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.

Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.

My crim. prof didn't believe much in deterrence and pointed out that in
Merry Olde England "Pickpockets picked pockets at the hangings of
pickpockets."

People were so entranced by watching someone *else* dying that they became
excellent targets for pickpockets.

It's also been shown that it's very hard to deter crimes of passion because
people are often way out of their minds when they kill lovers, spouses,
children, etc.

--
Bobby G.

Virtually all marketing material is a lie.

Did you really think that shopvac you bought at McLowesDepotBigBoxSuperMart has a 6HP motor on it?

Did you really think that $49 TV antenna can pull in stations from 200 miles away?

Did you really think your new car would actually get the mpg advertised on the sticker?

You really think your extended warranty will cover everything?

Did you really think Dick Network would deliver all those channels for $19.95 / mo?

So what if VW stretches the truth a bit, they ***all*** do.

Do you know how to tell if a car salesperson is lying? Their lips are moving.

"Dean Hoffman" wrote in
news

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.



it was to cool the shafts and blades so the oil wouldn`t coke up. not spin
down. KB

Robert Green wrote:
"Winston_Smith" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.

Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.

My crim. prof didn't believe much in deterrence and pointed out that
in Merry Olde England "Pickpockets picked pockets at the hangings of
pickpockets."

People were so entranced by watching someone *else* dying that they
became excellent targets for pickpockets.

It's also been shown that it's very hard to deter crimes of passion
because people are often way out of their minds when they kill
lovers, spouses, children, etc.

Corporate crime is not in that category. Serious prison terms for corporate
officers and anyone else involved would probably be a strong deterant. Corporate
shortcuts that result in multiple deaths should alway result in strong
prosecutions. Just like presecution of corporation officers for hiring illegal
immigrants is the only real solution to the problem the Repubs whine so much
about. Way cheaper than building the wall they want.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:25:51 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Bob F wrote:
Bob F wrote:
NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.
BMW and MB use DEF - I believe it wsas only Volkswagen's "clean diesel
technology" that did not - and now we know how THAT worked.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 05:59:50 -0500, "Dean Hoffman"
wrote:


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.
Toyota's solution was a water cooled turbo.

On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).

The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..

On 2015-09-23, Bob F wrote:
Really!!

Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government
has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been
theft, extortion, murder, and slavery.

Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves,
thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions
are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary
EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the
concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use
more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.)

Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The
best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site:

Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation.
Massa plans to whip their asses.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 9/23/2015 8:21 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
On 2015-09-23, Bob F wrote:
Really!!

Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government
has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been
theft, extortion, murder, and slavery.

Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves,
thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions
are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary
EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the
concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use
more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.)

This reads more like a comedy routine than a serious protest.

Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The
best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site:

Screw the lead, asbestos and dioxin, full speed ahead.

Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation.
Massa plans to whip their asses.

That much is true, Felipe Massa always hopes to beat every driver.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:47:55 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

You would still need to measure actual
emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.

I think this makes sense.

The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever.

In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch".

Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but
that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance
(i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW
engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the
NOx emissions.

Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings,
VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions
be damned.

There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing
money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their
wallet out on the kitchen table without checking.

The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever).

The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house
guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house
guest stole money out of your wallet.

Yes. The real mystery here is who implemented this and who all knew
about it. I think they have to run the cars on test tracks for 50 or
60K miles to verify they system holds up but even if not, surely
during development of any engine system they must run them fully
instrumented for quite a while to see what the "real world" results
look like as well as how well the "lab strategy" works in the field.
Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested
instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions
standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild"
but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the
"switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they
should be.

Ewald Böhm wrote in :

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

This video says that the VW TDI meets all California and US & Europe requirements!
https://youtu.be/GzuFXeO48Rw?t=635

Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.

What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:07:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested
instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions
standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild"
but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the
"switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they
should be.

I have to agree with you.

Notice what Winterkorn said, which was that he wasn't aware, "to his
knowledge", that he cheated. Hmmmm...

And Clinton didn't have sexual relations with that woman either.

Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on
diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The
company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice
system (which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to
"WHO" did it).
The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..

Maybe this will be the time for a change??

Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen wrote:
Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.

What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?


Backwards.

Less fuel = hotter burn in the combustion chamber = higher NOx numbers
It shows up as vehicles that get better EPA mileage numbers than the
sticker says because they are burning less fuel.

To correct the issue they need to increase the fuel to the engine to
cool the combustion temperatures.

The end result will be that the EPA MPG numbers will be closer to
reality because the engine is now using the fuel to keep the NOx numbers
down. The only "bad" side effect will be that the particulate trap and
the NOx catalyst will need to burn more often to regenerate.

OR VW could come up with a DEF retrofit to drop the NOx numbers.

--
Steve W.