Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

NO!


If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.


Parts soldered to gold-plated FR4.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...r/Z356_Top.JPG





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On 9/15/2014 12:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

That depends, a lot, on what is being prototyped, the
packaging of the components, performance expected from the
circuit, etc.

E.g., too many leads makes many microcomputer (not microCONTROLLER)
designs impractical to prototype in that manner. Likewise, high
operating frequencies, low supply voltages (i.e., poor noise
margins), high power signals, etc. all can make that sort of
breadboarding more hassle than it is worth.

[And, a lot of stuff can more readily be *simulated* -- if the
purpose of the breadboard is "design verification"]

OTOH, a slow analog circuit is ideal for that sort of approach.
Just be aware of the limitations that come with it (as well as
connections that can be flakey, come loose, etc.)

If you're ever going to *do* anything with the design (i.e.,
commit it to foil), then it is usually better to just prototype
*in* foil. I've taken this approach for more than 30 years, now,
and it has served me well (though it gets more expensive to
make the prototypes as packaging has evolved).

Consider: if you will eventually commit the design to foil,
then there will come a time when you have to make your first
*foil* prototype(s). And, you'll spend some time troubleshooting
layout/routing errors, mechanical interference issues, etc. So,
you'll probably need to turn the crank, again (I dislike releasing
"cobbled" boards with softwire patches, cut foils, etc.).

With that in mind, let your *first* prototype be the *foil*
prototype and deal with design/layout/routing issues in that
first shot -- skipping one iteration (ideally). This has the
added benefit that you can (relatively easily) create a second
copy of that first prototype -- not that easy with other
approaches!

[I.e., maybe you want to play with the design a bit and risk butchering
the *one* prototype in the process]

Of course, you have to be reasonably confident in the design before
you begin!

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014, Don Kuenz wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Is this one of those surveys in advance of one of those kickstarter
campaigns? I seem to recall filling one out months ago, but I can't
remember if it really was related to breadboarding. I know the people
behind the survey had no real idea of the market.

And then, just last week, I saw something about a kickstarter campaign of
a little plastic gizmo that amounted to a microUSB connector with leads
that fit the breadboard. Have we dumbed things down that much? Forty
years ago, when those breadboards were new and I got one, I'd just wire
some bits of wire to things that didn't fit into the breadboard holes. No
need to buy something.

That said, one uses what fits the situation.

Those white breadboards are great for ICs since they are layed out for
ICs. They aren't so great for discrete components.

So you put your IC breadboarding on the white breadboards, and then hou
use scraps of copper circuit board for the rest, soldering to the copper
when you need a ground connection, and keeping everything in the air above
the board. Works fine for breadboarding, you can use components salvaged
fro something with small leads, or (if the circuit allows it) use parts
without cutting their leads, so they can be reused later. I used the same
piece of circuit board for years, it's even better after a bit of use
since the solder is already on the board, you just need to heat it a bit,
maybe add a bit of solder, and solder the component lead. This
arragnement makes it really easy to change things, or scrap it all.
Perfboard is lousy for making changes.

If you build compactly, you can just make the "breadboard" the finished
product, hide it behind a panel somewhere.

Michael

On 9/15/2014 3:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

I use PCBs for prototyping. There are ways to get them inexpensively if
you aren't in a hurry.

If I'm in a hurry it means I am being paid for the work and the costs of
a quicker prototype is part of my quote.

--

Rick

On 9/15/14, 2:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz

I occasionally use one of these for simple and low frequency stuff:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...2336-ND/180293

ChesterW

On 9/15/2014 3:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

Never. Dead bug all the way, with SMD breakout boards and some
uC/CPLD/interface boards from vendors.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

In article , Don Kuenz
wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

Depends on the nature of the project. For some things, these are fine -
if you don't loan them out to idiots and are not one yourself. I used to
maintain a labful of them, and we had to treat them as largely
disposable due to idiocy making them disfunctional after a relatively
short time. My personal one, bought new, has held up much longer.

Many other options for things where the stray capacitance of these is a
problem have been discussed in the group in the past. Those are
generally of either the "build up sections of insulator and copper on
top of a copper-clad board" or "cut islands into a copper-clad board"
flavor. When Mr. Larkin is diverted from politics long enough to post
about electronics he often has links to pictures of this sort of thing.

Perfboard with or without little copper rings is another option for some
types of work, and you can sometimes even make the little copper rings
work with 3-terminal surface mount devices, since through-hole devices
are becoming scarcer.

Some types of things you simply have to spin a board to prototype
effectively, especially with the rise of surface-mount and the shrinkage
of pin-pitch.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

The best intentions often don't quite result in a neat breadboard:
https://www.google.com/search?q=messy+breadboard&tbm=isch

I have a small collection of those white breadboards and bags of
jumpers. That last time I used them was about 20 years ago for a
simple low frequency logic circuit. They're useless for anything over
a few MHz, or a few amps. Screwing around with all the little jumper
connections takes more time than building a "dead bug" circuit on a
PCB. The only real advantage to using one of those white breadboards
is that there's no soldering involved. However, I can solder, so
that's not much of a benefit.

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

Dead bug or 3D bug on a PCB. For discrete components, a single sided
PCB with the copper layer on top acting as a ground. Components are
mounted on the PCB using drilled holes. I use a small router bit or
end mill to clear out the ground plane around un-grounded leads.
Interconnections are done on the unclad bottom of the PCB using
plastic sleeves over component leads.

For SMT, I use small carrier PCB's to bring out the leads so that they
can be soldered.
https://www.google.com/search?q=SMT+breadboard&tbm=isch
They're also handy for easily replacing the SMT device after I blow it
up.

For RF prototypes, I either etch a PCB approximation of the strip
lines, or pay the price and have the PCB fabricated. Ocassionally,
I'll build up the strip lines using copper tape on a single sided PCB.
Xacto knife to make changes and fix mistakes.

The uglier the breadboard, the better it works.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In sci.electronics.design John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

NO!


If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Parts soldered to gold-plated FR4.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...er/Z356_Top.JP

That's so beautiful that it belongs in an art museum after you finish
your prototype! It seems that SMT makes solderless breadboard a thing of
the past.

--
Don Kuenz

In sci.electronics.design Don Y wrote:
On 9/15/2014 12:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

That depends, a lot, on what is being prototyped, the
packaging of the components, performance expected from the
circuit, etc.

E.g., too many leads makes many microcomputer (not microCONTROLLER)
designs impractical to prototype in that manner. Likewise, high
operating frequencies, low supply voltages (i.e., poor noise
margins), high power signals, etc. all can make that sort of
breadboarding more hassle than it is worth.

[And, a lot of stuff can more readily be *simulated* -- if the
purpose of the breadboard is "design verification"]

OTOH, a slow analog circuit is ideal for that sort of approach.
Just be aware of the limitations that come with it (as well as
connections that can be flakey, come loose, etc.)

If you're ever going to *do* anything with the design (i.e.,
commit it to foil), then it is usually better to just prototype
*in* foil. I've taken this approach for more than 30 years, now,
and it has served me well (though it gets more expensive to
make the prototypes as packaging has evolved).

Consider: if you will eventually commit the design to foil,
then there will come a time when you have to make your first
*foil* prototype(s). And, you'll spend some time troubleshooting
layout/routing errors, mechanical interference issues, etc. So,
you'll probably need to turn the crank, again (I dislike releasing
"cobbled" boards with softwire patches, cut foils, etc.).

With that in mind, let your *first* prototype be the *foil*
prototype and deal with design/layout/routing issues in that
first shot -- skipping one iteration (ideally). This has the
added benefit that you can (relatively easily) create a second
copy of that first prototype -- not that easy with other
approaches!

[I.e., maybe you want to play with the design a bit and risk butchering
the *one* prototype in the process]

Of course, you have to be reasonably confident in the design before
you begin!

Although your approach requires more time and effort up front, it ought
to speed things along later and create a thoroughly thought out design.

--
Don Kuenz

In sci.electronics.design Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014, Don Kuenz wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Is this one of those surveys in advance of one of those kickstarter
campaigns? I seem to recall filling one out months ago, but I can't
remember if it really was related to breadboarding. I know the people
behind the survey had no real idea of the market.

And then, just last week, I saw something about a kickstarter campaign of
a little plastic gizmo that amounted to a microUSB connector with leads
that fit the breadboard. Have we dumbed things down that much? Forty
years ago, when those breadboards were new and I got one, I'd just wire
some bits of wire to things that didn't fit into the breadboard holes. No
need to buy something.

That said, one uses what fits the situation.

Those white breadboards are great for ICs since they are layed out for
ICs. They aren't so great for discrete components.

So you put your IC breadboarding on the white breadboards, and then hou
use scraps of copper circuit board for the rest, soldering to the copper
when you need a ground connection, and keeping everything in the air above
the board. Works fine for breadboarding, you can use components salvaged
fro something with small leads, or (if the circuit allows it) use parts
without cutting their leads, so they can be reused later. I used the same
piece of circuit board for years, it's even better after a bit of use
since the solder is already on the board, you just need to heat it a bit,
maybe add a bit of solder, and solder the component lead. This
arragnement makes it really easy to change things, or scrap it all.
Perfboard is lousy for making changes.

If you build compactly, you can just make the "breadboard" the finished
product, hide it behind a panel somewhere.

I've done something similar. I've used a nylon breadboard to prototype,
then migrated all components to a breadboard perfboard, and finally hid
the whole contraption in a bud box. What goes on inside the bud box,
stays inside the bud box.

--
Don Kuenz

In sci.electronics.design rickman wrote:
On 9/15/2014 3:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

I use PCBs for prototyping. There are ways to get them inexpensively if
you aren't in a hurry.

If I'm in a hurry it means I am being paid for the work and the costs of
a quicker prototype is part of my quote.

This may be the only way to prototype high density SMT.

--
Don Kuenz

In sci.electronics.design ChesterW wrote:
On 9/15/14, 2:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

I occasionally use one of these for simple and low frequency stuff:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...2336-ND/180293

That was my approach until I read _Troubleshooting Analog Circuits_ by
Pease. For solderless breadbroads Pease recommends perfboard and
Digikey A208 and A209.

--
Don Kuenz

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:58:13 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

That was my approach until I read _Troubleshooting Analog Circuits_ by
Pease. For solderless breadbroads Pease recommends perfboard and
Digikey A208 and A209.

Are you sure you want to follow Bob Pease's example?
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/bob-pease-breadboard.htm

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 9/15/2014 7:57 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
In sci.electronics.design rickman wrote:
On 9/15/2014 3:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

I use PCBs for prototyping. There are ways to get them inexpensively if
you aren't in a hurry.

If I'm in a hurry it means I am being paid for the work and the costs of
a quicker prototype is part of my quote.

This may be the only way to prototype high density SMT.

Certainly for anything with higher pin counts it is. I've seen untold
numbers of folks who hand solder QFN devices on adapter boards and
certainly QFPs and similar are no real problem. But with the higher pin
counts adapters are just too difficult.

I don't typically do designs where there is a lot of uncertainly in the
basic design. If there is much uncertainty I do it a different way,
like by wiring eval boards together.

You have to plan on two spins of the board though as there is almost
always something that will need changed. Still, PCBs are a lot cheaper
than they used to be.

--

Rick

[*thought* I had replied to this but I suspect yet another brainfart]

On 9/15/2014 4:55 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
In sci.electronics.design Don Y wrote:

With that in mind, let your *first* prototype be the *foil*
prototype and deal with design/layout/routing issues in that
first shot -- skipping one iteration (ideally). This has the
added benefit that you can (relatively easily) create a second
copy of that first prototype -- not that easy with other
approaches!

[I.e., maybe you want to play with the design a bit and risk butchering
the *one* prototype in the process]

Of course, you have to be reasonably confident in the design before
you begin!

Although your approach requires more time and effort up front, it ought
to speed things along later and create a thoroughly thought out design.

It really depends on what your goals are and what you are doing.
Having "early foil" is often a win -- it lets manufacturing take
a look at what will (eventually, in some form) be coming down the
road. It lets them buy into the design at an earlier stage instead
of feeling like it is just *dropped* in their laps while the
marketing folks clamor for shipped product to satisfy orders, etc.

It also lets you play with a design in ways that would be too
tedious with other implementations: lift foils, add components,
connectors, test points, etc. It's one thing to trash a board
and "expense" the components that were on it; quite another
thing to deal with all the labor lost on a "one off" breadboard!

[I had a colleague "debug" a motor driver with the smoke-n-smell
technique. While the boss wasn't pleased with the number of
components that gave up the ghost in the process, he was *much*
happier knowing a new board would only set him back about an hour
in labor costs!]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:50:46 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

In sci.electronics.design John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

NO!


If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Parts soldered to gold-plated FR4.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...er/Z356_Top.JP

That's so beautiful that it belongs in an art museum after you finish
your prototype! It seems that SMT makes solderless breadboard a thing of
the past.

This is my favorite, but I did it on non-gold-plated FR4, and it
quickly tarnished.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...rotos/LDP2.JPG

The copperclad breadboards allow really fast, high-current stuff. And
you can write on them, and keep them for future reference.

I find them (live bug!) easier to understand, too. The solderless
things confuse me, and dead bug makes me count backwards.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

--

Rick

On 2014-09-15, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

sometimes.

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This stuff. "multicomp n254-899" stripboard

available from farnell(etc), and occasionally resold on amazon.

It's tinned, so solders more easily than the bare copper stripboards giving
a reliable joint more easily.

element14.co.nz and ".au" seem to have it heavily discounted today.

--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 9/15/2014 8:57 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:50:46 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

In sci.electronics.design John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

NO!


If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Parts soldered to gold-plated FR4.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...er/Z356_Top.JP

That's so beautiful that it belongs in an art museum after you finish
your prototype! It seems that SMT makes solderless breadboard a thing of
the past.

This is my favorite, but I did it on non-gold-plated FR4, and it
quickly tarnished.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...rotos/LDP2.JPG

The copperclad breadboards allow really fast, high-current stuff. And
you can write on them, and keep them for future reference.

I find them (live bug!) easier to understand, too. The solderless
things confuse me, and dead bug makes me count backwards.

Like the flexible Werner von Braun, according to Tom Lehrer:

"You too can be a big hero / Just learn to count backwards to zero.
'Once the rockets go up / who cares where they come down?
That's not my department' / says Werner von Braun"

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On 9/15/2014 8:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:58:13 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

That was my approach until I read _Troubleshooting Analog Circuits_ by
Pease. For solderless breadbroads Pease recommends perfboard and
Digikey A208 and A209.

Are you sure you want to follow Bob Pease's example?
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/bob-pease-breadboard.htm


Perf board is way too slow, I find--it takes at least twice as long as
dead-bug when both methods apply. All that cutting and stripping of
wires takes ages, and wire-wrap wire is too easy to nick.

Also the thickness of the board takes up vertical space that's very
useful for making connections. With dead bug, you just use clipped-off
component leads for hookup wire, and you can easily get three vertical
layers of connections without shorts.

One layer is pins bent directly down to the package (e.g. shorting pins
2 and 6 of an op amp follower), the next is where the leads neck down,
and the top one arches over that one. You can make the layout pretty
tight if you use the bodies of resistors and capacitors to force the
wires apart.

So I use perf board only rarely. When I do, it's Vector 8007
(pad-per-via plus ground plane).

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:49 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

On 9/15/2014 8:57 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:50:46 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

In sci.electronics.design John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

NO!


If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Parts soldered to gold-plated FR4.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...er/Z356_Top.JP

That's so beautiful that it belongs in an art museum after you finish
your prototype! It seems that SMT makes solderless breadboard a thing of
the past.

This is my favorite, but I did it on non-gold-plated FR4, and it
quickly tarnished.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...rotos/LDP2.JPG

The copperclad breadboards allow really fast, high-current stuff. And
you can write on them, and keep them for future reference.

I find them (live bug!) easier to understand, too. The solderless
things confuse me, and dead bug makes me count backwards.

Like the flexible Werner von Braun, according to Tom Lehrer:

"You too can be a big hero / Just learn to count backwards to zero.
'Once the rockets go up / who cares where they come down?
That's not my department' / says Werner von Braun"

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Werner is said to be the origin of

"One experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions."

which is the email sigfile of a Fellow of United Technologies.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

In sci.electronics.design Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:58:13 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

That was my approach until I read _Troubleshooting Analog Circuits_ by
Pease. For solderless breadbroads Pease recommends perfboard and
Digikey A208 and A209.

Are you sure you want to follow Bob Pease's example?
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/bob-pease-breadboard.htm

Pease the jester put that tangle on the cover of his book. It posses
a certain charismatic enthralling aspect that draws me into its blooming
crazy.

It reminds me of the open air boardless circuit that used to hang on an
old boss' wall as abusive art. Imagine, if you will, a perfboard circuit
minus the perfboard with lots of stiff wire "tracers" to keep everything
in place.

The stiff wire tracers were generally kept strictly horizontal and
vertical, which lent an air of respectability to the tangle. The art was
voice activated. It made obnoxious sounds - chirping and doing what not
when one spoke. It was the audio equivalent of rolling one's eyes. It
was unsettling and kept employees such as me on the defensive, to the
delight of my boss, no doubt.

But, it was also art. It was fun to look at.

--
Don Kuenz

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 03:02:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

Yeah, a real PCB could have been done faster than making that by hand.
And you could order 5 of them. If this was Dolby, the cost of a
quick-turn multilayer board would be trivial.

(Around here, a lot of the people that you interview have worked for
Dolby. Turnover seems pretty high. They are like ILM, expecting people
to work for glory.)


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On 9/16/2014 11:56 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 03:02:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

Yeah, a real PCB could have been done faster than making that by hand.
And you could order 5 of them. If this was Dolby, the cost of a
quick-turn multilayer board would be trivial.

Don't know about 5, but 6 is very doable, see my other post...

--

Rick

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 15:46:30 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
wrote:

Pease the jester put that tangle on the cover of his book. It posses
a certain charismatic enthralling aspect that draws me into its blooming
crazy.

When I was designing marine radios, we would build a breadboard on a
piece of plywood, using small PCB's representing sub-systems and
stages. Typically, one to four engineers and maybe 3 technicians
would contribute to the prototype construction. Artistic value and
neatness varied, but the final result usually worked quite well. For
many years, one such working plywood prototype was hanging on the wall
of the lab (the only safe place), permanently wired to a power supply
and antenna. It was very commonly used as a "reference" radio for
comparison with current production units. When something went wrong,
it was a big help. Anyone borrowing parts from the breadboard were
threatened with violence, so it remained functional for at least 5
years.

It reminds me of the open air boardless circuit that used to hang on an
old boss' wall as abusive art. Imagine, if you will, a perfboard circuit
minus the perfboard with lots of stiff wire "tracers" to keep everything
in place.

http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/e-hatband.html
This will require some explanation. I was temporarily in hospital
with a sprained ankle, torn ligaments, and a possible concussion.
After the first day, I became seriously bored. A friend delivered my
box of junk parts, a soldering iron, some small tools, and ordered me
to build something. The best I could do was a hat band, the remains
of which is in the picture. Solder and wire leads do not tolerate
much flexing, which caused the hatband to break. It may not look like
much, but as I was seeing double at the time, soldering all that junk
together was a real challenge.

I've built quite a few multi-layer 3D type circuits. However, I
always have built them on a piece PCB to provide the necessary
support. I also have a fair collection of 22M resistors, which I use
for standoffs and mechanical support.

But, it was also art. It was fun to look at.

The uglier the breadboard, the better it works.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 9/16/2014 8:46 AM, Don Kuenz wrote:

It reminds me of the open air boardless circuit that used to hang on an
old boss' wall as abusive art. Imagine, if you will, a perfboard circuit
minus the perfboard with lots of stiff wire "tracers" to keep everything
in place.

The stiff wire tracers were generally kept strictly horizontal and
vertical, which lent an air of respectability to the tangle. The art was
voice activated. It made obnoxious sounds - chirping and doing what not
when one spoke. It was the audio equivalent of rolling one's eyes. It
was unsettling and kept employees such as me on the defensive, to the
delight of my boss, no doubt.

But, it was also art. It was fun to look at.

A friend *always* "air wired" (simple) things. I think he enjoyed
the three-dimensional puzzle aspect of it ("Hmmm... how can I get
this component to bridge these two points in space?").

When done, he would wrap the circuit in toilet paper (!) and
stuff it in a tin can.

shrug Different strokes...

Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz
Haven't we been thru this garbage before recently?

In sci.electronics.repair John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 03:02:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

Yeah, a real PCB could have been done faster than making that by hand.
And you could order 5 of them. If this was Dolby, the cost of a
quick-turn multilayer board would be trivial.

I'd cut them slack (and give some credit too) considering how old that
thing is. It's actually pretty cool. I had some 70s/early 80s
"Sega/Gremlin" arcade machine boards that all appeared to have been layed
out by hand with vinyl decals. Every single trace. boards and boards of
74xx series logic circling a z80 or something like that, all done by hand.
These were production boards, but somebody spend lots of time designing
those boards. Not sure what sort of board layout tools they had back then,
although they must have existed. Anybody know?

(Around here, a lot of the people that you interview have worked for
Dolby. Turnover seems pretty high. They are like ILM, expecting people
to work for glory.)

Has Dolby done anything new or interesting in the past decade?

On 9/17/2014 2:25 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 03:02:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

Yeah, a real PCB could have been done faster than making that by hand.
And you could order 5 of them. If this was Dolby, the cost of a
quick-turn multilayer board would be trivial.

I'd cut them slack (and give some credit too) considering how old that
thing is. It's actually pretty cool. I had some 70s/early 80s
"Sega/Gremlin" arcade machine boards that all appeared to have been layed
out by hand with vinyl decals. Every single trace. boards and boards of
74xx series logic circling a z80 or something like that, all done by hand.
These were production boards, but somebody spend lots of time designing
those boards. Not sure what sort of board layout tools they had back then,
although they must have existed. Anybody know?

Yeah, PCB layout back then was supported by... I can't think of the name
of the company that made those pads and strips. They made them with
scale factors so you could more easily see what you were doing, 2x and
4x that I recall. You set your design rules by picking the tape width
and the pad diameter. If you were a little tight and wanted to shave a
little off a pad... you shaved a little off a pad. lol

I didn't do layout then, but I've seen the artwork. Xacto knives are
your friends even if it is just for picking up the tracks and pads and
placing them.

I don't think CAD systems were used much even for layout until around
the time the PC hit the scene. I guess the big companies had them...
with "huge" 20" CRTs and light pens most likely. Don't know for sure.

--

Rick

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:25:08 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

In sci.electronics.repair John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 03:02:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

Yeah, a real PCB could have been done faster than making that by hand.
And you could order 5 of them. If this was Dolby, the cost of a
quick-turn multilayer board would be trivial.

I'd cut them slack (and give some credit too) considering how old that
thing is. It's actually pretty cool. I had some 70s/early 80s
"Sega/Gremlin" arcade machine boards that all appeared to have been layed
out by hand with vinyl decals. Every single trace. boards and boards of
74xx series logic circling a z80 or something like that, all done by hand.
These were production boards, but somebody spend lots of time designing
those boards. Not sure what sort of board layout tools they had back then,
although they must have existed. Anybody know?

I used to lay out my own boards, decals and black crepe tape on
pin-aligned mylar. There would be a padmaster (pads only) and a
separate sheet for each trace layer. We sent it out to Lorry Ray in
Mountain View to be photographed. They could also do cool ground plane
tricks, all with wet photography. We'd send the film out to the fab
house and expect to get it back.

I still have a few layouts around, to show the kids. It was labor
intensive.


(Around here, a lot of the people that you interview have worked for
Dolby. Turnover seems pretty high. They are like ILM, expecting people
to work for glory.)

Has Dolby done anything new or interesting in the past decade?

Big sound systems for movie theatres (a dying biz) and a new home 3D
sound system.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On 9/16/2014 12:43 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/16/2014 8:46 AM, Don Kuenz wrote:

It reminds me of the open air boardless circuit that used to hang on an
old boss' wall as abusive art. Imagine, if you will, a perfboard circuit
minus the perfboard with lots of stiff wire "tracers" to keep everything
in place.

The stiff wire tracers were generally kept strictly horizontal and
vertical, which lent an air of respectability to the tangle. The art was
voice activated. It made obnoxious sounds - chirping and doing what not
when one spoke. It was the audio equivalent of rolling one's eyes. It
was unsettling and kept employees such as me on the defensive, to the
delight of my boss, no doubt.

But, it was also art. It was fun to look at.

A friend *always* "air wired" (simple) things. I think he enjoyed
the three-dimensional puzzle aspect of it ("Hmmm... how can I get
this component to bridge these two points in space?").

When done, he would wrap the circuit in toilet paper (!) and
stuff it in a tin can.

shrug Different strokes...

I've wrapped several of my projects in toilet paper and stuffed them.

On 9/16/2014 11:17 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz
Haven't we been thru this garbage before recently?


Yeah. But, is anyone interested in the way I do it? It's slightly
different from the rest of the posts.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 21:17:38 -0700, Robert Baer
wrote:

Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz
Haven't we been thru this garbage before recently?

Every society needs its rituals.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

In sci.electronics.repair John S wrote:
On 9/16/2014 11:17 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz
Haven't we been thru this garbage before recently?

"One man's garbage is another man's treasure."

It's an electronics group. One can expect discussions about breadboards,
SPICE, and Pease to surface from time to time. Those things are on
topic.

Yeah. But, is anyone interested in the way I do it? It's slightly
different from the rest of the posts.

*I* am interested and that's why I posted the question in the first
place. Everyone else can (and will) speak for themselves.

--
Don Kuenz

On 09/17/2014 12:02 PM, John S wrote:
On 9/16/2014 11:17 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz
Haven't we been thru this garbage before recently?


Yeah. But, is anyone interested in the way I do it? It's slightly
different from the rest of the posts.

I don't know. Are you good at it? All wisdom welcome!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 03:00:04 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/17/2014 2:25 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 03:02:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

Yeah, a real PCB could have been done faster than making that by hand.
And you could order 5 of them. If this was Dolby, the cost of a
quick-turn multilayer board would be trivial.

I'd cut them slack (and give some credit too) considering how old that
thing is. It's actually pretty cool. I had some 70s/early 80s
"Sega/Gremlin" arcade machine boards that all appeared to have been layed
out by hand with vinyl decals. Every single trace. boards and boards of
74xx series logic circling a z80 or something like that, all done by hand.
These were production boards, but somebody spend lots of time designing
those boards. Not sure what sort of board layout tools they had back then,
although they must have existed. Anybody know?

Yeah, PCB layout back then was supported by... I can't think of the name
of the company that made those pads and strips.

Brady?

They made them with
scale factors so you could more easily see what you were doing, 2x and
4x that I recall. You set your design rules by picking the tape width
and the pad diameter. If you were a little tight and wanted to shave a
little off a pad... you shaved a little off a pad. lol

We used 1:1 on a lathe sort of cutter. The white/black copy was
mounted to one drum and copper-clad mounted to a second drum. A
light/photocell and audio amplifier then drove a solenoid with a knife
blade to make the copy on the copper-clad sheet as the lathe turned.

I didn't do layout then, but I've seen the artwork. Xacto knives are
your friends even if it is just for picking up the tracks and pads and
placing them.

Yep. I did a lot of it in college.

I don't think CAD systems were used much even for layout until around
the time the PC hit the scene. I guess the big companies had them...
with "huge" 20" CRTs and light pens most likely. Don't know for sure.

I last used the tape method when I graduated. Everything at the PPoE
was done with CAD after that (long before the PC). The early CAD was
pretty crude, though. The graphical tools were quite limited until,
perhaps, '76 or so. Everything was done with text netlists before
that but there was no tape and hadn't been for some time.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:25:08 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

In sci.electronics.repair John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 03:02:11 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ess+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

Yeah, a real PCB could have been done faster than making that by hand.
And you could order 5 of them. If this was Dolby, the cost of a
quick-turn multilayer board would be trivial.

I'd cut them slack (and give some credit too) considering how old that
thing is. It's actually pretty cool. I had some 70s/early 80s
"Sega/Gremlin" arcade machine boards that all appeared to have been layed
out by hand with vinyl decals. Every single trace. boards and boards of
74xx series logic circling a z80 or something like that, all done by hand.
These were production boards, but somebody spend lots of time designing
those boards. Not sure what sort of board layout tools they had back then,
although they must have existed. Anybody know?

In the late 1960s i remember ICS, Daisy and Mentor systems that would do
board layout. Rather expensive though, about %50K for the base
workstation (often 2901 based) as much more for the software, another
chunk $70k for the photo plotter (Gerber compatible). All plus an
expensive person or two to drive it. And about $1k/month HW and SW
maintenance contracts to keep it running. They did 4-layer and 6-layer
boards or IC layouts with different and more expensive software.

My dad was a EE and got all the trade rags there were lots of ads.

(Around here, a lot of the people that you interview have worked for
Dolby. Turnover seems pretty high. They are like ILM, expecting people
to work for glory.)

Has Dolby done anything new or interesting in the past decade?