As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Like most of us, I suspect, I have hundreds of component drawers, which over
the years have become mixed up and confused, so in the circumstances of work
being very quiet at the moment, I decided to have a major tidy up and clear
out of redundant components. As a first move, I decided to rationalise the
resistors, and re-store them by individual value, rather than in groups of
values in the same drawer.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL that had come free
in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once it has warmed up in the
morning - at least one coffee drinking time needed for this - it seemed to
work reasonably well. Until, that is, I started trying to identify the
resistors in my old drawers to move them into the individual value drawers
in the new location.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is almost
impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from blue or
grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60 watt pearl
bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to take a low
voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v transformer.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily is a Bloody Whinger "


The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from
blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless.


** FFS - get a CFL that is rated for "Daylight White" colour balance.

My bench ( planetary arm) lamp uses a 22 watt " Daylight 6400K " spiral
CFL.

The light quality and quantity are both excellent.



..... Phil

On 10/23/2010 6:28 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is almost
impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from blue or
grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60 watt pearl
bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to take a low
voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v transformer.

Hate to say it, Arfa, but you sound like a Croat ranting about how much
he hates automobiles, having driven nothing but Yugos all his life.

CFLs used to be like that, sure. The ones I use (here in the Untied
Snakes) are much better in all the parameters you mentioned: instant on,
no appreciable warm-up time, pleasing color spectrum, long life.

(Well, their packages still leave something to be desired in some
applications, but other than that they're good.)


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

Hi David,

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 10/23/2010 6:28 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet
from blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more
60 watt pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the
lampholder to take a low voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it
to a 12v transformer.

Hate to say it, Arfa, but you sound like a Croat ranting about how much
he hates automobiles, having driven nothing but Yugos all his life.

CFLs used to be like that, sure. The ones I use (here in the Untied
Snakes) are much better in all the parameters you mentioned: instant on,
no appreciable warm-up time, pleasing color spectrum, long life.

Sadly, our experience (also US) has not been that satisfying.
Warmups of 15-30 seconds and I don't think any have lasted
more than 2 years. We have been replacing them with commercial
grade incandescents as they blow out (and donating the "free
replacement" bulbs to a local charity).

We've tried three different brands and have been disgusted
with all of them. (neighbors seem to share our opinion)

And the "dimmable" lamps are absolutely worthless.

(Well, their packages still leave something to be desired in some
applications, but other than that they're good.)

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention

One of these?
http://www.shopadilly.co.uk/Auctions/vintage+anglepoise+lamp

Ummm.... there should be a sticker on the Angelpoise desk lamp
indicating that due to the miserable ventilation design, the maximum
incandescent light bulb size is 60 watts. Anything bigger will blow
up rather rapidly due to overheating, as I found out in my previous
lamp. My current lamp is a Ledu, which specifies 75 watts max, mostly
because it has much larger vent holes and side ventilation slots.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is almost
impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from blue or
grey.

You're using junk CFL bulbs. The ones I buy come on instantly. I do
have one in the kitchen that I'm too lazy to replace that takes a few
minutes to warm up. The others are almost instant on. CFL bulbs are
available in various color temperatures.

If you have a glass prism or diffraction grating, you can test your
bulbs for color spectra. Incandescent shows a continuous spectra,
while CFL shows a series of discontinuous color blobs. If the color
of your resistor band is missing from the spectra, you will have
problems even if all the other colors are present. See spectrum photo
on the right of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#Spectrum_of_light
Also, look for CRI on the package. The closer to 100, the better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Arfa Daily wrote:
As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Actually I live CFLs. They provide a cheap source of light where I need light
but don't care how bad it looks. For example outisde lighting which is mostly
there so someone sees a light on and prefers to walk somewhere else, if even
just because it messes with their night vision.

I like them for places that I have to have a light on such as my windowless
bathroom. It's cheaper to leave one on 24/7 than have it on a timer.
Especially if I have to get up to use the toilet at 3am when the timer would
have the light off.

Over the years since I first got them in the late 1990's they have gotten
more efficient and finally someone wised up and is making them "warm",
which is close to the color that I can actually see.

The latest ones are brighter per watt, about 30%. I could see that about
a month ago when I replaced a bunch of them. I replace the one in the
bathroom when it goes out (and keep a spare as it usually happens late
at night), the others about once a year, just because.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL that had come free
in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once it has warmed up in the
morning - at least one coffee drinking time needed for this - it seemed to
work reasonably well. Until, that is, I started trying to identify the
resistors in my old drawers to move them into the individual value drawers
in the new location.

We still have plenty of incadescent bulbs for sale here, and they are cheap.
I expect we are the dumping ground for bulbs made in eastern Europe but
can't be sold there. I've bought plenty of them to stock up.

We use them for reading lamps so there are 5 of them still in use in
our house.

I also have a good supply of 12v halogen bulbs, but to be honest, I'm not
sure where the lamp that the fit is. :-)

Although they are long gone on the commercial market, they are still needed
for photgraphic enlargers. 3200k color temperature (about what you are used
to) and pearl or opal finish (very smooth even distribution of light).

Since they were often hung base up printing on the top would become part of
the image, so they had the wattage etc printed on the side, like a vacuum
tube (or valve as you would say).

You can find them if you search the web for suppliers of photgraphic darkroom
equipment, which has become a thriving niche market.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
To help restaurants, as part of the "stimulus package", everyone must order
dessert. As part of the socialized health plan, you are forbidden to eat it. :-)

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...
As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Like most of us, I suspect, I have hundreds of component drawers, which
over
the years have become mixed up and confused, so in the circumstances of
work
being very quiet at the moment, I decided to have a major tidy up and
clear
out of redundant components. As a first move, I decided to rationalise the
resistors, and re-store them by individual value, rather than in groups of
values in the same drawer.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL that had come free
in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once it has warmed up in the
morning - at least one coffee drinking time needed for this - it seemed to
work reasonably well. Until, that is, I started trying to identify the
resistors in my old drawers to move them into the individual value drawers
in the new location.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost
impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from blue or
grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60 watt pearl
bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to take a low
voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v transformer.

Arfa


You can get your own back when you scrap them
one GE 11TBXT 3/827 10Y, 240V, 105mA CFL gave these "useful" bits
10R fusible R
2 x BU102 ?? high V, TO92
2.8uF, 400V, 105 deg F with nice long leads
30 V diac BLDB3 / DB3
high temp textile sleeving
4mH inductor
ferrite ring
2x 0.5R

N_Cook wrote:
You can get your own back when you scrap them
one GE 11TBXT 3/827 10Y, 240V, 105mA CFL gave these "useful" bits
10R fusible R
2 x BU102 ?? high V, TO92
2.8uF, 400V, 105 deg F with nice long leads
30 V diac BLDB3 / DB3
high temp textile sleeving
4mH inductor
ferrite ring
2x 0.5R

How do you scrap them? The ones I have (and had in the past) were all encased
in some sort of ceramic, and to me they can only be taken apart with a hammer.

Thanks,

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
To help restaurants, as part of the "stimulus package", everyone must order
dessert. As part of the socialized health plan, you are forbidden to eat it. :-)

On 10/24/2010 1:34 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:

N_Cook wrote:

You can get your own back when you scrap them one GE 11TBXT 3/827
10Y, 240V, 105mA CFL gave these "useful" bits 10R fusible R 2 x
BU102 ?? high V, TO92 2.8uF, 400V, 105 deg F with nice long leads
30 V diac BLDB3 / DB3 high temp textile sleeving 4mH inductor
ferrite ring 2x 0.5R

How do you scrap them? The ones I have (and had in the past) were all
encased in some sort of ceramic, and to me they can only be taken
apart with a hammer.

Plastic, not ceramic. Still requires a few love-taps from a hammer, but
the circuit board can be retrieved undamaged.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

David Nebenzahl wrote in message
.com...
On 10/24/2010 1:34 AM Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:

N_Cook wrote:

You can get your own back when you scrap them one GE 11TBXT 3/827
10Y, 240V, 105mA CFL gave these "useful" bits 10R fusible R 2 x
BU102 ?? high V, TO92 2.8uF, 400V, 105 deg F with nice long leads
30 V diac BLDB3 / DB3 high temp textile sleeving 4mH inductor
ferrite ring 2x 0.5R

How do you scrap them? The ones I have (and had in the past) were all
encased in some sort of ceramic, and to me they can only be taken
apart with a hammer.

Plastic, not ceramic. Still requires a few love-taps from a hammer, but
the circuit board can be retrieved undamaged.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)


The white cone part is one-time fitted via pawls to the main part. Dremmell
grind a small hole into the cone at the break, where in case of both GE or
Philips logo is , seems to coincide with a pawl. Then lever off with
screwdriver. Cut the wires to the outside connector or desolder I suppose.
These days fibre reinforced plastic or mineralised plastic, used to be
ceramic in the original ones, Googling for BU102 + TO92 gets nowhere, I
assume as diac in there then triacs

Inside Philips Genie 8W CFL
10R, 1W
2 x Si 13001 triac?
105 deg C electros 1.8uF 400V and 2x 22uF lower V
1cm cube choke
ferrite ring
4.7mH choke
probably diac as well as "diodes" not checked

As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime. :-(

Not so. At least not so with the lamps I use, CFLs from Home Despot.

They come on instantly (and reach full brightness in about 30s); their odd
appearance is usually covered by a shade or fixture; their color balance is
good enough for color photography (and under a glass fixture is
indistinguishable from tungsten); and their-less-than-claimed lifespan is
still pretty long (about 2K hours for these lamps), especially considering
they use about 1/4 the energy of a comparable-output tungsten lamp.

Fluorescent lamps have always suffered from weak red output and a
discontinuous spectrum. The use of CFLs in "non-industrial" environments
(kitchens, shops, businesses, offices) has forced manufacturers to "do
something" about these problems.

I had tried CFLs (Philips) when they first came out, because the electric
company subsidized them. They were bulky, dim when they came on (the Home
Despots aren't), and took "forever" to reach full brightness. And they
didn't last very long.

Several years ago Home Despot handed out free CFLs. I tried one and was
sold. I no longer use tungsten lighting. (If I needed a high-intensity desk
lamp, though, I would use tungsten.) As I write this, I'm sitting in my den
of iniquity, illuminated by a 24W Home Despot CFL. It's in a beautiful IKEA
fixture (no longer made, of course), and -- other than the fact you don't
feel a blast of infrared when you stand near it -- I defy you to tell it's
tungsten without looking at the bulb.

I use them "nekkid" in the bathroom, and though /slightly/ cool, the color
is anything but "sick". I'd call it a brilliant cool white. It in no way
resembles conventional fluorescents.

As for your problems with metamerism... I don't know whether the Home Despot
CFLs would solve the problem. However, it seems unlikely that /some/ GB
retailer isn't importing the same bulbs.

PS: I stuck one of Home Despot's free lamps in the fixture outside my condo.
It has lasted at least twice as long as the "long-life" incandescents the
condo association uses.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
As for your problems with metamerism... I don't know whether the Home Despot
CFLs would solve the problem. However, it seems unlikely that /some/ GB
retailer isn't importing the same bulbs.

Nope. The ones sold here (and I assume in the UK) are Hyundai (Korea),
Osram (eastern Europe), and a bunch of Chinese brands that sound like
famous Japanese ones but are not.

And they are ceramic, not plastic. :-(

I do occasionaly see Philps ones (at twice the price or more than the
others) and I have lots of GE incandescent bulbs which are made in
eastern Europe.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
To help restaurants, as part of the "stimulus package", everyone must order
dessert. As part of the socialized health plan, you are forbidden to eat it. :-)

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Like most of us, I suspect, I have hundreds of component drawers, which
over the years have become mixed up and confused, so in the
circumstances of work being very quiet at the moment, I decided to have
a major tidy up and clear out of redundant components. As a first move,
I decided to rationalise the resistors, and re-store them by individual
value, rather than in groups of values in the same drawer.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as
it was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an
animal any more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL that
had come free in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once it has
warmed up in the morning - at least one coffee drinking time needed for
this - it seemed to work reasonably well. Until, that is, I started
trying to identify the resistors in my old drawers to move them into the
individual value drawers in the new location.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from
blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60
watt pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to
take a low voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v
transformer.

Arfa

I like the 6500k CFLs for security lighting and my bench light. I'm very
surprised at the longevity of the outdoor 23 watters. They have been in
use dusk to dawn in all kinds of weather, all mounted inverted and in
some sort of shroud one actually totally enclosed in a globe. Only one
has failed after two years and I expected it to fail, the globe enclosed
CFL. None of these 4 outdoor lamps are rated for inverted use either. I
did some reading on inverting a CFL and the base temperature increases
dramatically when the lamp is inverted. So I would expect cheap
electrolytics to dry up in no time.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 10/23/2010 6:28 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from
blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60 watt
pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to take
a low voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v transformer.

Hate to say it, Arfa, but you sound like a Croat ranting about how much he
hates automobiles, having driven nothing but Yugos all his life.

CFLs used to be like that, sure. The ones I use (here in the Untied
Snakes) are much better in all the parameters you mentioned: instant on,
no appreciable warm-up time, pleasing color spectrum, long life.

(Well, their packages still leave something to be desired in some
applications, but other than that they're good.)


--

Over the years since this technology was vaunted as the 'replacement' for
incandescent light, I have bought many examples from different
manufacturers. Whilst there has been some improvement in their performance
in that time, they remain, IMHO, a 'substitute' technology, rather than a
'replacement' one. They do not start up in the few mS that it takes an
incandescent to come on, no matter how good and up to date they are in that
respect. Neither do they reach full output for some considerable time after
they are powered. Most seem to be rated to produce 80% of their maximum
light output after 15 seconds. The remaining 20% takes a lot longer than
that. Both shortcomings are exacerbated by low ambient temperature. The
power ratings and light output are typically specced for an ambient
temperature of 25 deg C. Whilst some parts of the world may achieve this
most of the time, we don't here in the UK, and UK homes are certainly not
heated to that level from autumn through spring. Apart from that, they don't
sit properly in many decorative light fittings, and change the colour
aesthetics of some lampshades - notably for instance, in a rather nice
Tiffany style table lamp that I have. When I tried one in that, the
beautiful ruby red panels changed to a muddy colour, and the whole shade
took on a muted look, with much of the colour vibrancy that is a trademark
of this type of shade, gone. I went back to an incandescent in it. I was
able to use a clear one, as the bulb is not visible.

As another example of dubious output spectrum and CRI, I recently bought an
expensive example to go in a new light fitting in my hallway, which I had
just decorated. It was sold as a 'warm white' for household interior
lighting uses, and with a claimed equivalent light output of a 100 watt
incandescent. I chose a type that had a pearl 'globe' around the CFL spiral,
as the lampshade it was going in, was formed from glass crystal beads,
making the bulb completely visible, and part of the overall visual design.
An 'open' spiral or loop CFL design would have looked dreadful.

However, when it was fitted, the light from it was barely adequate, despite
the fact that previously, the hallway had been lit perfectly well with a 60
watt pearl incandescent bulb, and was now decorated in lighter colours than
it was before. Further, the colour spectrum was so poor that the background
of the wallpaper - actually a 'calico' colour - appeared to be a 'sick' pale
green, completely different in shade to the calico emulsion paint used
elsewhere in the hall, and which is indistinguishable from the wallpaper
background under natural daylight, or incandescent light.

My daughter, who is an artist and understands a lot about colour, saw the
new decoration for the first time after it had been completed and this new
bulb fitted, at night, and she was horrified at the effect, asking how on
earth we could have picked such horrible and mismatched colours. She knows
nothing of the technicalities and shortcomings of CFLs, and was just
reacting to something she was seeing from the artistic perspective.

My wife and I were so disappointed with her comments, that I immediately
removed the dreadful thing, and replaced it with a 60 watt pearl bulb that I
had rescued from my mother's stash after she died recently. Unfortunately,
it was the last one she, or I, had.

Once I had done this, my daughter couldn't believe the difference she was
seeing. To her, it had been 'just a light bulb'.

So, it's not just me. I think that many people don't like them - or the many
other eco, production and disposal implications (but that's another whole
story) - but are just going along with the whole thing because they are
being left with no other choice. They have their uses for sure. In areas
that have to be continuously lit for instance, or perhaps where aesthetics
don't matter. But as a replacement for incandescent light in all
circumstances ? No sir. Not yet. Not by a long long way ... And if that
makes me a Luddite and pommy whinger (just for you Philip) then yes, guilty
as charged ...

Arfa

Over the years since this technology was vaunted as the
'replacement' for incandescent light, I have bought many
examples from different manufacturers.

You've obviously had bad luck. Or there aren't any good ones in your neck of
the woods.


They do not start up in the few ms that it takes an
incandescent to come on...

True. They come on instantly. You can see the difference -- there's a
visible lag with incandescents.


Neither do they reach full output for some considerable time
after they're turned on.

Mine take about 30s. And they're acceptably from the moment they're turned .
(The older Philips were really dim at turn on.)


It appears that your government is aggressively forcing a conversion to CFLs
and other low-energy lighting. Forced conversion tends to short-circuit the
normal market forces that encourage companies to produce products people
really like. Your manufacturers have no real motivation to produce CFLs with
pleasing color balance.

"Meat Plow" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Like most of us, I suspect, I have hundreds of component drawers, which
over the years have become mixed up and confused, so in the
circumstances of work being very quiet at the moment, I decided to have
a major tidy up and clear out of redundant components. As a first move,
I decided to rationalise the resistors, and re-store them by individual
value, rather than in groups of values in the same drawer.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as
it was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an
animal any more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL that
had come free in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once it has
warmed up in the morning - at least one coffee drinking time needed for
this - it seemed to work reasonably well. Until, that is, I started
trying to identify the resistors in my old drawers to move them into the
individual value drawers in the new location.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from
blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60
watt pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to
take a low voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v
transformer.

Arfa

I like the 6500k CFLs for security lighting and my bench light. I'm very
surprised at the longevity of the outdoor 23 watters. They have been in
use dusk to dawn in all kinds of weather, all mounted inverted and in
some sort of shroud one actually totally enclosed in a globe. Only one
has failed after two years and I expected it to fail, the globe enclosed
CFL. None of these 4 outdoor lamps are rated for inverted use either. I
did some reading on inverting a CFL and the base temperature increases
dramatically when the lamp is inverted. So I would expect cheap
electrolytics to dry up in no time.



But this totally underlines my point about them being a 'substitute' rather
than 'replacement' technology. Many many household fittings are either
enclosed, semi-enclosed, or use a bulb that hangs down. In fact I would have
to say that fittings that have the bulb base facing up, other than perhaps
in table lamps, are few and far between, and fittings that do employ such a
scheme, and are then able to take CFLs, are even rarer. My son has a
three-branch 'chandelier' fitting in his hallway. He has fitted CFLs to
this, and because of the larger bases that these have to accommodate the
ballast electronics, they stick out of the tops of the glass shades, and
look ridiculous.

Arfa

On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:08:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention

More...

"Emission spectra of some compact fluorescent lamps"
http://web.ncf.ca/jim/misc/cfl/

You can check the spectra of some CFL lamps at:
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Compact%20Fluorescent.htm

"The Double Amici Prism Hand-Held Spectroscope."
Emission spectra of various lamps are furthur down the page.
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/spectroscope/amici.html
Incidentally, you might find it amusing to see what CCFL backlit white
looks like on a laptop LCD display [1.3.7], and a Sony Trinitron
[1.11.3]. Also, the authors comments on "Full-Spectrum Lamps" near
the bottom of the page.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:50:24 +0100, "N_Cook"
wrote:

These days fibre reinforced plastic or mineralised plastic, used to be
ceramic in the original ones,

Reinforced Polybutylene Terephthalate (PBT) or Polyethylene
Terephthalate (PET) plastic resin with about 30% glass fiber mixed in
to minimally meet UL-94 V-0 flame retartent specs.

MSDS for CFL from Home Despot:
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/fd/fd8f96e1-4ff3-4a86-9070-e8583d3e636e.pdf

Googling for BU102 + TO92 gets nowhere, I
assume as diac in there then triacs

What's inside and how it works:
"Self Oscillating 25W CFL Lamp Circuit"
http://www.nxp.com/documents/application_note/AN00048.pdf

Fiat Lux
(let there be light).

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:57:42 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

"Meat Plow" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Like most of us, I suspect, I have hundreds of component drawers,
which over the years have become mixed up and confused, so in the
circumstances of work being very quiet at the moment, I decided to
have a major tidy up and clear out of redundant components. As a first
move, I decided to rationalise the resistors, and re-store them by
individual value, rather than in groups of values in the same drawer.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and
as it was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an
animal any more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL
that had come free in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once
it has warmed up in the morning - at least one coffee drinking time
needed for this - it seemed to work reasonably well. Until, that is, I
started trying to identify the resistors in my old drawers to move
them into the individual value drawers in the new location.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet
from blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more
60 watt pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the
lampholder to take a low voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it
to a 12v transformer.

Arfa

I like the 6500k CFLs for security lighting and my bench light. I'm
very surprised at the longevity of the outdoor 23 watters. They have
been in use dusk to dawn in all kinds of weather, all mounted inverted
and in some sort of shroud one actually totally enclosed in a globe.
Only one has failed after two years and I expected it to fail, the
globe enclosed CFL. None of these 4 outdoor lamps are rated for
inverted use either. I did some reading on inverting a CFL and the base
temperature increases dramatically when the lamp is inverted. So I
would expect cheap electrolytics to dry up in no time.



But this totally underlines my point about them being a 'substitute'
rather than 'replacement' technology. Many many household fittings are
either enclosed, semi-enclosed, or use a bulb that hangs down. In fact I
would have to say that fittings that have the bulb base facing up, other
than perhaps in table lamps, are few and far between, and fittings that
do employ such a scheme, and are then able to take CFLs, are even rarer.
My son has a three-branch 'chandelier' fitting in his hallway. He has
fitted CFLs to this, and because of the larger bases that these have to
accommodate the ballast electronics, they stick out of the tops of the
glass shades, and look ridiculous.

Arfa

I wasn't arguing the fact that they are 'substitutes' as you put it. But
what is a person to do unless you are willing to blow your own glass and
buy tungsten from Norway or Sweden or wherever it comes from and
refurbish your own incandescents? You could start stockpiling your
favorite incandescents to have them on hand when they finally disappear
for good but what after that? Although fluorescents have been around for
60 years or more used in commercial lighting those that manufacture CFLs
are going to have to beef up the technology and design better lamps with
better quality components but keep the cost down at the same time.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

http://tinyurl.com/2eqh6vp

GE hybrid CFL

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:57:42 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

But this totally underlines my point about them being a 'substitute' rather
than 'replacement' technology. Many many household fittings are either
enclosed, semi-enclosed, or use a bulb that hangs down. In fact I would have
to say that fittings that have the bulb base facing up, other than perhaps
in table lamps, are few and far between, and fittings that do employ such a
scheme, and are then able to take CFLs, are even rarer. My son has a
three-branch 'chandelier' fitting in his hallway. He has fitted CFLs to
this, and because of the larger bases that these have to accommodate the
ballast electronics, they stick out of the tops of the glass shades, and
look ridiculous.

Agreed on all points. The lifetime of the CFL bulb seems to be
dramatically less if the bulb is enclosed in any manner (covered lamp
or reflector). See upper bar graph for 1,000 hr test at:
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/resources/newsroom/pdf/2007/PEARL8511.pdf
80% of the bare bulbs made it past 1,000 hrs (which still sucks),
while only about 35% of the covered bulbs survived. If you run a lamp
for 6 hrs per day (evening only), then 1000 hrs is only about 6
months. Not exactly my idea of "long life" CFL bulbs, many of which
claim 6,000 to 15,000 hr lifetimes. If the 20% failure rate at 1,000
hrs figure is assumed, then after 5000 hrs, all of the test bulbs will
be dead.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:46:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:08:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention

More...

"Emission spectra of some compact fluorescent lamps"
http://web.ncf.ca/jim/misc/cfl/

You can check the spectra of some CFL lamps at:
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Compact%20Fluorescent.htm

"The Double Amici Prism Hand-Held Spectroscope."
Emission spectra of various lamps are furthur down the page.
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/spectroscope/amici.html
Incidentally, you might find it amusing to see what CCFL backlit white
looks like on a laptop LCD display [1.3.7], and a Sony Trinitron
[1.11.3]. Also, the authors comments on "Full-Spectrum Lamps" near
the bottom of the page.

Cool stuff. Always interesting to "see" that what we perceive is not
always (or often) 1:1 with what's really there.

Make Magazine vol 24 (due out any day now) will have a DIY article on a
hand-held diffraction grating spectroscope.
http://makezine.com/magazine/ (Note that as of today the link shows
volume 23; subscribers should have received an email link to number 24).

There's also http://sciencefirst.com/product_info...roducts_id=403.
It's kind of clunky (basically a kid's toy) but it does have an
adjustable scale so it can be kinda-sorta calibrated using a known
spectral line from a fluorescent lamp.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:46:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:08:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention

More...

"Emission spectra of some compact fluorescent lamps"
http://web.ncf.ca/jim/misc/cfl/

You can check the spectra of some CFL lamps at:
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Compact%20Fluorescent.htm

"The Double Amici Prism Hand-Held Spectroscope."
Emission spectra of various lamps are furthur down the page.
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/spectroscope/amici.html
Incidentally, you might find it amusing to see what CCFL backlit white
looks like on a laptop LCD display [1.3.7], and a Sony Trinitron
[1.11.3]. Also, the authors comments on "Full-Spectrum Lamps" near
the bottom of the page.

But can it grow superb colas?
--
****! I thought no one knew, goddammit!
http://preview.tinyurl.com/29p4ody
Me, jacking off! http://preview.tinyurl.com/3xpntge Available For
Lessons!

http://tinyurl.com/2eqh6vp
GE hybrid CFL

Bad, bad idea. That halogen bulb is not going to last very long.

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:54:24 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/2eqh6vp
GE hybrid CFL

Bad, bad idea. That halogen bulb is not going to last very long.

Who asked you?



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:37:01 -0400, Rich Webb
wrote:

Cool stuff. Always interesting to "see" that what we perceive is not
always (or often) 1:1 with what's really there.

Our eyes adapt very nicely to different color illumination. For
example, we see "white" light from a flourescent fixture, while the
light is heavily green tinged when viewed on an uncompensated
photograph taken with a digital or film camera.

Make Magazine vol 24 (due out any day now) will have a DIY article on a
hand-held diffraction grating spectroscope.
http://makezine.com/magazine/ (Note that as of today the link shows
volume 23; subscribers should have received an email link to number 24).

I've resisted subscribing because I know that I'll spend the rest of
my life building and playing with interesting toys. Sigh.

There's also http://sciencefirst.com/product_info...roducts_id=403.
It's kind of clunky (basically a kid's toy) but it does have an
adjustable scale so it can be kinda-sorta calibrated using a known
spectral line from a fluorescent lamp.

Some more on the Star Spectrometer.
http://home.comcast.net/~mcculloch-brown/astro/spectwhat.html
http://home.comcast.net/~mcculloch-brown/astro/spectrostar.html
http://www.scientificsonline.com/precision-economy-spectrometer.html

Kinda overkill for this application. All you need is a slit and a
glass prism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Simple_spectroscope.jpg

If you want really simple, there are diffraction glasses and slides:
http://www.mutr.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1009604
http://www.rainbowsymphonystore.com/difgratglas.html
http://www.scientificsonline.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=grating

If you're really into crude, you can use a DVD as a diffraction
grating:
http://www.mutr.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1009497
https://secure-mutr.co.uk/catalog/images/spectroscope.pdf?osCsid=8cckpjuiqluci60s4k6ubbhoc5

Ummm....
http://www.scientificsonline.com/party-bulbs.html
Black bulb???

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 10/24/2010 1:23 PM, Meat Plow wrote:
On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:54:24 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/2eqh6vp
GE hybrid CFL

Bad, bad idea. That halogen bulb is not going to last very long.

Who asked you?

You don't have to ask him, just put anything out where he can find it.

As to the hybrid lamp, probably a good idea if it was designed as
a "transition" to give light while a slower (more efficient?) CFL
comes up to full brilliance.

Otherwise it may just be another product for a need we never knew
we had.

Jeff

http://tinyurl.com/2eqh6vp
GE hybrid CFL

Bad, bad idea. That halogen bulb is not going to last very long.

Who asked you?

You don't have to ask him, just put anything out where he can find it.

What is it about UseNet that attracts "human beings" who have nothing better
to do than behave in a nasty, insulting fashion to anyone who displeases
their sense of arrogant self-importance? What do your friends see in you
two, anyway?

I've had private communications with Mr Plow, who made it clear he has the
absolute right to say whatever he likes, for whatever reason, and no one has
any right to question or criticize him. He doesn't want friends; he just
wants to be surrounded by people who will graciously allow him to abuse
them.

You wouldn't dare spew your nastiness directly in the face of any member of
this group. You're sniveling cowards hiding behind the physical anonymity of
a UseNet group.

What rotten "people" you are.

PS: Posting anything in a group implicitly opens the subject for discussion.

Jeff Liebermann wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:50:24 +0100, "N_Cook"
wrote:

These days fibre reinforced plastic or mineralised plastic, used to be
ceramic in the original ones,

Reinforced Polybutylene Terephthalate (PBT) or Polyethylene
Terephthalate (PET) plastic resin with about 30% glass fiber mixed in
to minimally meet UL-94 V-0 flame retartent specs.

MSDS for CFL from Home Despot:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdf...a86-9070-e8583
d3e636e.pdf

Googling for BU102 + TO92 gets nowhere, I
assume as diac in there then triacs

What's inside and how it works:
"Self Oscillating 25W CFL Lamp Circuit"
http://www.nxp.com/documents/application_note/AN00048.pdf

Fiat Lux
(let there be light).

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


So bipolar, not triacs, from the philips pdf. Also 105 deg C not F for the
caps, previously stated

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 11:30:14 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:37:01 -0400, Rich Webb
wrote:

Cool stuff. Always interesting to "see" that what we perceive is not
always (or often) 1:1 with what's really there.

Our eyes adapt very nicely to different color illumination. For
example, we see "white" light from a flourescent fixture, while the
light is heavily green tinged when viewed on an uncompensated
photograph taken with a digital or film camera.

Yup, a lot of what we see is really what we perceive, and we're rather
easy to fool.

Some illuminating illustrations of this are over at:
http://www.lottolab.org/articles/illusionsoflight.asp

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

On 10/24/2010 8:32 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...

On 10/23/2010 6:28 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it
is almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or
violet from blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't
find any more 60 watt pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to
modify the lampholder to take a low voltage halogen downlighter
bulb, and hook it to a 12v transformer.

Hate to say it, Arfa, but you sound like a Croat ranting about how
much he hates automobiles, having driven nothing but Yugos all his
life.

CFLs used to be like that, sure. The ones I use (here in the Untied
Snakes) are much better in all the parameters you mentioned:
instant on, no appreciable warm-up time, pleasing color spectrum,
long life.

(Well, their packages still leave something to be desired in some
applications, but other than that they're good.)

Over the years since this technology was vaunted as the 'replacement'
for incandescent light, I have bought many examples from different
manufacturers. Whilst there has been some improvement in their
performance in that time, they remain, IMHO, a 'substitute'
technology, rather than a 'replacement' one. They do not start up in
the few mS that it takes an incandescent to come on, no matter how
good and up to date they are in that respect. Neither do they reach
full output for some considerable time after they are powered. Most
seem to be rated to produce 80% of their maximum light output after
15 seconds. The remaining 20% takes a lot longer than that. Both
shortcomings are exacerbated by low ambient temperature. The power
ratings and light output are typically specced for an ambient
temperature of 25 deg C. Whilst some parts of the world may achieve
this most of the time, we don't here in the UK, and UK homes are
certainly not heated to that level from autumn through spring. Apart
from that, they don't sit properly in many decorative light fittings,
and change the colour aesthetics of some lampshades - notably for
instance, in a rather nice Tiffany style table lamp that I have. When
I tried one in that, the beautiful ruby red panels changed to a muddy
colour, and the whole shade took on a muted look, with much of the
colour vibrancy that is a trademark of this type of shade, gone. I
went back to an incandescent in it. I was able to use a clear one, as
the bulb is not visible.

[snip]

First let me say that I totally believe you and your tale of woe
concerning CFLs vs. incandescents.

But as someone else here pointed out, this merely points to what is
apparently the comparatively poor availability of decent CFLs in your
island nation compared to other places (U.S., for example). More's the pity.

And yes, contrary to your strenuous assertions to the contrary, there
*are* compelling environmental and energy-conservation reasons to switch
to CFLs, and damn fast too. Not just some empty-headed notion from tree
huggers.

But it would be in the best interests of UK citizens if they were
presented a decent range of alternatives to incandescent bulbs before
being forced to give them up. The process actually seems to be going
pretty well on this side of the ocean, with many people switching on
account of a good range of inexpensive alternatives to the old
heat-producers.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

Arfa Daily wrote:
As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Like most of us, I suspect, I have hundreds of component drawers, which
over the years have become mixed up and confused, so in the
circumstances of work being very quiet at the moment, I decided to have
a major tidy up and clear out of redundant components. As a first move,
I decided to rationalise the resistors, and re-store them by individual
value, rather than in groups of values in the same drawer.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as
it was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an
animal any more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL that
had come free in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once it has
warmed up in the morning - at least one coffee drinking time needed for
this - it seemed to work reasonably well. Until, that is, I started
trying to identify the resistors in my old drawers to move them into the
individual value drawers in the new location.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from
blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60
watt pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to
take a low voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v
transformer.

Arfa

People like you have real issues. I have had 100% CFL's in my home for
decades. Guess what, they are better than candles.
I will be switching to LED's when they are available for all around use.

--
LSMFT

Simple job, assist the assistant of the physicist.

I've been buying various brands of CFLs in the U.S. for about 5 years, and
initially, they seemed more problematic than they might be worth.
The early ones were slow to attain their full brightness, colors of light
were yellowish and reddish, and typically failed within a year.

The CFLs that I've found to provide "good" lighting, are the daylight or
sunlight versions (various brands).
Most of my lighting in living areas have fixtures that orient the lamps
base-down, and the result is bounce lighting from overhead and adjacent wall
surfaces. This type of lighting is very agreeable to me, and I don't
particularly like to have a lamp shining directly onto something I'm looking
at, unless I'm trying to get a close look at something within a piece of
equipment.

Placing a cool or soft-white CFL near a 6000 degree daylight CFL, with both
lighting a white wall, should reveal a very different color of light coming
from the cool/soft lamp. The cool or soft-white CFLs were making many colors
appear to be different in my comparisons.

Early on, I was glad to discover that CCD and digital camera devices worked
very well with the higher light temperatures of 5000+.
Around 6500 degrees works very well for my eyes and camera images, in my
experience.

In the workshop, I found that the light from cheap workshop/garage
cool/soft-white fluorescent twin tube fixtures was slightly uncomfortable
(for my eyes), and that issue was fixed by also having a few regular
incandescent bulbs in the work area. The result was an improvement but not
as good as sunlight CFLs (for my eyes).

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Like most of us, I suspect, I have hundreds of component drawers, which
over the years have become mixed up and confused, so in the circumstances
of work being very quiet at the moment, I decided to have a major tidy up
and clear out of redundant components. As a first move, I decided to
rationalise the resistors, and re-store them by individual value, rather
than in groups of values in the same drawer.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL that had come free
in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once it has warmed up in the
morning - at least one coffee drinking time needed for this - it seemed to
work reasonably well. Until, that is, I started trying to identify the
resistors in my old drawers to move them into the individual value drawers
in the new location.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from
blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60 watt
pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to take a
low voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v transformer.

Arfa

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:08:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as
it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal
any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention

More...

"Emission spectra of some compact fluorescent lamps"
http://web.ncf.ca/jim/misc/cfl/

You can check the spectra of some CFL lamps at:
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Compact%20Fluorescent.htm

"The Double Amici Prism Hand-Held Spectroscope."
Emission spectra of various lamps are furthur down the page.
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/spectroscope/amici.html
Incidentally, you might find it amusing to see what CCFL backlit white
looks like on a laptop LCD display [1.3.7], and a Sony Trinitron
[1.11.3]. Also, the authors comments on "Full-Spectrum Lamps" near
the bottom of the page.

--
Jeff Liebermann


Thanks for the links, Jeff. Very interesting reading, as always. The last
one shows very clearly why the human animal is 'at ease' with daylight,
incandescent light, light from fire and so on, but in some cases - notably
*me* for instance - not with the light from CFLs. The discontinuity and lack
of general 'body' to the spectrum is very telling. Also, interesting to see
the spectrum from regular linear flourescent tubes. Those diagrams show me
very clearly why I don't have a problem with the light from them. That just
leaves (and begs) the question of why, when broad spectrum phosphors are
obviously readily and cheaply available, as evidenced by their use in linear
tubes, they are not using them in CFLs, instead ****ing about with limited
bandwidth emission triphosphor coatings, which produce the objectionable
light quality that I, and others like me, are being forced to endure. Do the
CFLs on sale in other parts of the world, in fact use linear tube phosphors
?

Arfa

"Rich Webb" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:46:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:08:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:28:14 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as
it
was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an animal
any
more due to EU ecobollox intervention

More...

"Emission spectra of some compact fluorescent lamps"
http://web.ncf.ca/jim/misc/cfl/

You can check the spectra of some CFL lamps at:
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Compact%20Fluorescent.htm

"The Double Amici Prism Hand-Held Spectroscope."
Emission spectra of various lamps are furthur down the page.
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/spectroscope/amici.html
Incidentally, you might find it amusing to see what CCFL backlit white
looks like on a laptop LCD display [1.3.7], and a Sony Trinitron
[1.11.3]. Also, the authors comments on "Full-Spectrum Lamps" near
the bottom of the page.

Cool stuff. Always interesting to "see" that what we perceive is not
always (or often) 1:1 with what's really there.

Make Magazine vol 24 (due out any day now) will have a DIY article on a
hand-held diffraction grating spectroscope.
http://makezine.com/magazine/ (Note that as of today the link shows
volume 23; subscribers should have received an email link to number 24).

There's also http://sciencefirst.com/product_info...roducts_id=403.
It's kind of clunky (basically a kid's toy) but it does have an
adjustable scale so it can be kinda-sorta calibrated using a known
spectral line from a fluorescent lamp.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

I wonder whether colour blindness has anything to do with this, and the
reason why some of us seem to have a problem with the colour rendition of
CFLs, whilst others don't ? Long ago when I was in senior school, I was
tested for colour blindness, and was declared red blind and green
insensitive (I think) which I understood to mean that I couldn't pick out
certain shades of green amongst other colours, and couldn't see some shades
of red at all. In normal everyday life, this has never caused me any
problem, and as far as I am concerned, I see and distinguish colour as well
as the next guy, (although maybe differently in perception) but that is
assuming the natural condition of daylight, which all of the 'traditional'
light sources, including linear flourescents, mimic reasonably well, at
least at the lower end, and in terms of the spectra being reasonably 'bulky'
and continuous. However, that is not the case for the typical CFL spectrum,
which is *extremely* discontinuous. Could it be that the zero emission dips
in the spectrum, correspond wholly or in part, to spectrum sensitivity
deficiencies in my eyes, causing my colour blindness to become significant
under that light, and leading to some colours all but disappearing to me.
That would certainly account for why some blend colours like orange or
violet on the resistor colour bands that started all this, become
indistinguishable (to me) from the single colour components which make them
up.

Arfa

"LSMFT" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
As if any more reasons were needed on top of their horrible startup
characteristics, their ugliness, their sick coloured light, and their
inability to last for a fraction of the claimed lifetime :-(

Like most of us, I suspect, I have hundreds of component drawers, which
over the years have become mixed up and confused, so in the
circumstances of work being very quiet at the moment, I decided to have
a major tidy up and clear out of redundant components. As a first move,
I decided to rationalise the resistors, and re-store them by individual
value, rather than in groups of values in the same drawer.

Now the other day, the bulb in my Anglepoise bench light failed, and as
it was the last 60 watt pearl one I had - nowhere stocking such an
animal any more due to EU ecobollox intervention - I put in a CFL that
had come free in a cornflake packet or some such nonsense. Once it has
warmed up in the morning - at least one coffee drinking time needed for
this - it seemed to work reasonably well. Until, that is, I started
trying to identify the resistors in my old drawers to move them into the
individual value drawers in the new location.

The spectrum from this lamp is so poor and discontinuous, that it is
almost impossible to resolve red from brown from orange, or violet from
blue or grey. Absolutely bloody useless. If I can't find any more 60
watt pearl bulbs on the 'net, then I'm going to modify the lampholder to
take a low voltage halogen downlighter bulb, and hook it to a 12v
transformer.

Arfa

People like you have real issues. I have had 100% CFL's in my home for
decades. Guess what, they are better than candles.
I will be switching to LED's when they are available for all around use.

--
LSMFT

Maybe I do have issues - see my post in this thread about colour blindness.
But setting that aside, I am sick of people telling me that I can't actually
see what I clearly can, because *they* can't see it, and are happy to be led
by the nose down the route of this substitute technology in the name of
green mist brigade ecobollox.

And you know what else ? You're right ! CFLs are better than candles. But
compared to incandescent lamps, they suck big time. So if that's the sum
total of your contribution, and you are happy with the ****street pieces of
crap, that's just fine.

I, and thousands of others, are not.

Arfa

On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 02:20:53 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

The last
one shows very clearly why the human animal is 'at ease' with daylight,
incandescent light, light from fire and so on, but in some cases - notably
*me* for instance - not with the light from CFLs. The discontinuity and lack
of general 'body' to the spectrum is very telling.

Yep. It took me literally 20 years to get used to using ordinary
fluorescent desk lamps.

Also, interesting to see
the spectrum from regular linear flourescent tubes. Those diagrams show me
very clearly why I don't have a problem with the light from them. That just
leaves (and begs) the question of why, when broad spectrum phosphors are
obviously readily and cheaply available, as evidenced by their use in linear
tubes, they are not using them in CFLs, instead ****ing about with limited
bandwidth emission triphosphor coatings, which produce the objectionable
light quality that I, and others like me, are being forced to endure. Do the
CFLs on sale in other parts of the world, in fact use linear tube phosphors

Dunno, but I can guess that incremental improvements as a sales tool
might be at work. If the industry produced the ultimate perfect CFL
light, that lasted forever, it might as well close up shop after about
10 years. So, we have incremental improvements in order to inspire us
to "upgrade" our lighting. Perpetual obsolescence is the price of
technical progress.

This might help:
2700K (warm tone)
4100K (Cool White)
5000K (Natural Day Light)
5500K (Full Spectrum)
6500K (Day Light)
from:
http://www.naturallighting.com/web/shop.php?crn=571
Presumably, you're looking for 5500K, which is commonly available. For
example:
http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/6792/FC23-SFS.html
I don't know exactly which phosphors (or mixes) are currently in use.

I had the not-so-great idea of using my digital camera and some
software as a spectrograph. I found what I thought was some suitable
softwa
http://rsb.info.nih.gov/ij/plugins/color-inspector.html
http://rsb.info.nih.gov/ij/
It's really cool software, but never obtained anything like the CFL
spectra on the various web pages. Seen any software that will take a
solid color, from a JPG of a CFL lamp, and break it up into spectral
lines?

Drivel: I was defrosting the fridge with a screwdriver and hammer,
when I managed to puncture the cooling coils, releasing the gas. I
hate days like this.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Drivel: I was defrosting the fridge with a screwdriver and hammer,
when I managed to puncture the cooling coils, releasing the gas. I
hate days like this.

My first wife did that circa 1974. You can patch the coils and refill them,
HOWEVER what I did not learn until a few years ago is that you have to
to empty the coils with a vacuum pump before you add new refrigerant.

Adding new refigerant to a system with air in it does not work very well.

You also may want to not mention this to anyone, don't you need a permit
to release refrigerant into the air in California?

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
To help restaurants, as part of the "stimulus package", everyone must order
dessert. As part of the socialized health plan, you are forbidden to eat it. :-)

I wonder whether colour blindness has anything to do with this, and the
reason why some of us seem to have a problem with the colour rendition of
CFLs, whilst others don't ? Long ago when I was in senior school, I was
tested for colour blindness, and was declared red blind and green
insensitive (I think) which I understood to mean that I couldn't pick out
certain shades of green amongst other colours, and couldn't see some
shades
of red at all. In normal everyday life, this has never caused me any
problem, and as far as I am concerned, I see and distinguish colour as
well
as the next guy, (although maybe differently in perception) but that is
assuming the natural condition of daylight, which all of the 'traditional'
light sources, including linear flourescents, mimic reasonably well, at
least at the lower end, and in terms of the spectra being reasonably
'bulky'
and continuous. However, that is not the case for the typical CFL
spectrum,
which is *extremely* discontinuous. Could it be that the zero emission
dips
in the spectrum, correspond wholly or in part, to spectrum sensitivity
deficiencies in my eyes, causing my colour blindness to become significant
under that light, and leading to some colours all but disappearing to me.
That would certainly account for why some blend colours like orange or
violet on the resistor colour bands that started all this, become
indistinguishable (to me) from the single colour components which make
them
up.

Color vision is usually tested by seeing whether people can /distinguish/
colors, rather than identify them. Human males sometimes suffer from
red/green "color blindness" -- difficulty in distinguishing them. My father
had that problem; fortunately I didn't inherit it.

Peter Wensberg, a vice-president at Polaroid, reported that Dr Land ran the
entire book of color-perception charts past him, and said he was the first
person he'd met who failed every one. Whether this meant Mr Wensberg could
not see color at all, I don't know. But he couldn't /distinguish/ them very
well.

A co-worker once asked me to help with selecting colors for a page he was
designing. It turned out he had red-green problems. I showed him a
fluorescent-green pen. "What color does that look like to you?" "Orange". I
don't know what "orange" looked like to him, but he couldn't distinguish
that green from orange.

It isn't clear how the lack of red in fluorescent lamps would interact with
red/green blindness.

For what it's worth, conventional "linear" fluorescents, regardless of their
color balance, have never looked "right" to me. The better CFLs are the
first fluorescents that look fairly natural.