The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

Google for a servo potentiometer,
or a conductive plastic potentiometer.
They are expensive, but are mechanically strong and
have a live of milions of cycles.

On 8/25/2009 9:12 PM Sylvia Else spake thus:

The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

You don't actually spell that thing "-metre", do you? Please tell me you
don't.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather flaky.
Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is that
it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal is in
constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never designed with
that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

It's not unusual to find pots in such applications, and there are types
which are specifically designed to have very long mechanical lives. Using a
pot keeps the circuitry simple. As an alternative, many guitar effects
pedals use an optical arrangement instead, where a shaded or shaped
'shutter' mechanically connected to the pedal, passes between an LED and a
phototransistor or diode, the varying DC resistance of the device caused as
a result of this, serving as the equivalent of the varying resistance of
your pot.

Arfa

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 8/25/2009 9:12 PM Sylvia Else spake thus:

The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed
12 screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the
business end consists of a potentiometre.

You don't actually spell that thing "-metre", do you? Please tell me you
don't.



By "you", I presume you mean people in my part of the world.

In truth, no, but why would it worry you if we did?

Sylvia.

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather flaky.
Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is that
it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal is in
constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never designed with
that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

It's not unusual to find pots in such applications, and there are types
which are specifically designed to have very long mechanical lives. Using a
pot keeps the circuitry simple. As an alternative, many guitar effects
pedals use an optical arrangement instead, where a shaded or shaped
'shutter' mechanically connected to the pedal, passes between an LED and a
phototransistor or diode, the varying DC resistance of the device caused as
a result of this, serving as the equivalent of the varying resistance of
your pot.

The latter seems a beter solution. Take a typical piece of Piano music -
Beethoven's well known "Moonlight Sonata" - it involves about 60 pedal
cycles. Apart from wirewound (and horribly expensive) pots, the best
I've found claims 100,000 cycles. I'd get through that in a year and
half, easily.

Sylvia.

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

It's not unusual to find pots in such applications, and there are types
which are specifically designed to have very long mechanical lives. Using
a pot keeps the circuitry simple. As an alternative, many guitar effects
pedals use an optical arrangement instead, where a shaded or shaped
'shutter' mechanically connected to the pedal, passes between an LED and
a phototransistor or diode, the varying DC resistance of the device
caused as a result of this, serving as the equivalent of the varying
resistance of your pot.

The latter seems a beter solution. Take a typical piece of Piano music -
Beethoven's well known "Moonlight Sonata" - it involves about 60 pedal
cycles. Apart from wirewound (and horribly expensive) pots, the best I've
found claims 100,000 cycles. I'd get through that in a year and half,
easily.

Sylvia.

So how long has the original lasted ? If it seems to have done reasonable
service, would it not be best to just replace it with a genuine one from
Yamaha ? They are very experienced in the field of keyboard instruments, and
I would have thought that they knew what they were doing in terms of best
cost / performance ratios when choosing components for their designs. The
only alternative that I see, is to use one of the 'horribly expensive" types
to improve on the original specification. If you are that bothered about the
lifetime of the standard device fitted, and having to replace it
periodically, then I would have thought that the one-off additional cost was
worth it ?

Arfa

Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal[...]is become rather flaky[...]
So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism
[...]and was rather surprised to see that the business end
consists of a potentiometre.

Decades ago, on a Lowrey organ IIRC,
I saw a lamp and a photocell used in the expression pedal.
The pedal actuated a plate with a slot cut in it.
The plate separated the 2 devices;
the slot expanded from a slit at one end to wide at the other.
No noise from the device and wear wasn't an issue.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing.
In fact, the surprise is that it's lasted so long.

....since the bean counters get the last word
on what components go into the final product.

When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal is in constant use.
I can't help feeling potentiometres were never designed
with that kind of use in mind.

Think about a guided missile constantly being buffeted
out on the wing of an aircraft and the sensing devices in that.
It's all about specing the device for the job.

The design seems rather primitive.

....but not uncommon.

Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

At least Yamaha are willing to supply just the pot. I was expecting them
to want to supply a complete replacement pedal mechanism, at some
exorbitant price.

Spares guy described it as a "volume" pot for the sustaining pedal

None in stock here, though - order from Japan - takes 4 weeks.

So much for supporting their product.

Sylvia.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:27:25 -0400, Meat Plow
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:12:42 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote:

The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

Which Yamaha model piano? Most Yamaha pedal mechanisms made in the
last 20 years have been optical, not mechanical. For example:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=5037157
"# Interference-free optical key, and pedal sensors"

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetailPF.html?CNTID=1379&CTID=202200&LG FL=Y
"Sustain and shift pedals are equipped with continuous-position
digital optical sensors"

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

Ummm... thanks for not calling it a rheostat.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

Probably just needs a good cleaning. I own an old Yamy pedal. Used it
with my Kawai keyboard for decades.

This FC-4 piano pedal?
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-FC4-Piano-Style-Pedal/dp/B0002F52EW

If so, I also have one. The one I've been using on my Korg DSS-1 has
lasted about 15 year so far. I haven't had to tear it apart yet, so I
don't know if it's optical or a pot.

However, I do have one problem with the FC-4. Despite the anti-slip
rubber tread on the bottom, it still manages to slip around the
carpet. I keep wanting to bolt it to a piece of plywood, but never
have bothered.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:27:25 -0400, Meat Plow
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:12:42 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote:

The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

Which Yamaha model piano? Most Yamaha pedal mechanisms made in the
last 20 years have been optical, not mechanical. For example:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=5037157
"# Interference-free optical key, and pedal sensors"

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetailPF.html?CNTID=1379&CTID=202200&LG FL=Y
"Sustain and shift pedals are equipped with continuous-position
digital optical sensors"

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

Ummm... thanks for not calling it a rheostat.

Why on Earth would I do that?


I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

Probably just needs a good cleaning. I own an old Yamy pedal. Used it
with my Kawai keyboard for decades.


This FC-4 piano pedal?
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-FC4-Piano-Style-Pedal/dp/B0002F52EW

It's the sustaining pedal on a 7 year old CLP-970. The sensor looks for
all the world like a pot.


If so, I also have one. The one I've been using on my Korg DSS-1 has
lasted about 15 year so far. I haven't had to tear it apart yet, so I
don't know if it's optical or a pot.

However, I do have one problem with the FC-4. Despite the anti-slip
rubber tread on the bottom, it still manages to slip around the
carpet. I keep wanting to bolt it to a piece of plywood, but never
have bothered.


Fortunately, the CLP-970 is heavy enough to require two people to lift,
so there's no problem of its moving around.

Sylvia.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:09:15 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote:

Ummm... thanks for not calling it a rheostat.

Why on Earth would I do that?

Because it really is a rheostat. Officially, if there are three wires
involved, it a potentiometer. If there are only two, it's rheostat.
Since my FC-4 has only two connection on the phone jack, it's a
rheostat. However, the internal variable resistors in the non-optical
pedal mechanisms I've seen, use 3 wires.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer
Unfortunately, just about everyone uses these terms interchangeably.

It's the sustaining pedal on a 7 year old CLP-970. The sensor looks for
all the world like a pot.

http://music.yamaha.com/products/main.html?productId=109
Release data is Jan 1, 2000 which makes it at the bitter edge of when
Yamaha started using optical pedal mechanisms. It doesn't specify the
pedal mechanism, but only says "Half pedal effect (Right)" which makes
me wonder why they bothered to use a pot instead of two switches.

Fortunately, the CLP-970 is heavy enough to require two people to lift,
so there's no problem of its moving around.

Well, yeah. The pedals are part of the cabinet.

I'm rather surprised that you opted to get the original part from
Yamaha. Potentiometers are fairly generic and available. If you have
the old part, try to determine the taper (linear, log, audio, weird,
etc), and the value of the pot with an ohms-guesser. Also the shaft
type. Then go shopping online for a suitable replacement. If you
need help, do some measuring and supply a photo.

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is that
it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal is in
constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never designed
with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

At least Yamaha are willing to supply just the pot. I was expecting them
to want to supply a complete replacement pedal mechanism, at some
exorbitant price.

Spares guy described it as a "volume" pot for the sustaining pedal

None in stock here, though - order from Japan - takes 4 weeks.

So much for supporting their product.

**How old is it? Beyond 7 years (or is it 5 now?) they don't have to do
diddly about spare parts supply, if they don't want to. Just appreciate that
they can get you the right part in 4 weeks. I could tell you stories about
ather brands, whose products have only been on the market for less than 2
years and the parts are NLA. Yamaha, IME, are one of the better companies
for spare parts support.

OTOH, let your fingers do the walking and look through the Farnell
cattle-dog. They have some very superior quality parts, which you may be
able coax into the right spot.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:09:15 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote:

Ummm... thanks for not calling it a rheostat.
Why on Earth would I do that?

Because it really is a rheostat. Officially, if there are three wires
involved, it a potentiometer. If there are only two, it's rheostat.

It has three. Five volts on side. Zero on the other. Middling in the
middle. This presumably reduces its sensitivity to track wear.


Since my FC-4 has only two connection on the phone jack, it's a
rheostat. However, the internal variable resistors in the non-optical
pedal mechanisms I've seen, use 3 wires.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer
Unfortunately, just about everyone uses these terms interchangeably.

It's the sustaining pedal on a 7 year old CLP-970. The sensor looks for
all the world like a pot.

http://music.yamaha.com/products/main.html?productId=109
Release data is Jan 1, 2000 which makes it at the bitter edge of when
Yamaha started using optical pedal mechanisms. It doesn't specify the
pedal mechanism, but only says "Half pedal effect (Right)" which makes
me wonder why they bothered to use a pot instead of two switches.

Fortunately, the CLP-970 is heavy enough to require two people to lift,
so there's no problem of its moving around.

Well, yeah. The pedals are part of the cabinet.

I'm rather surprised that you opted to get the original part from
Yamaha. Potentiometers are fairly generic and available. If you have
the old part, try to determine the taper (linear, log, audio, weird,
etc), and the value of the pot with an ohms-guesser. Also the shaft
type. Then go shopping online for a suitable replacement. If you
need help, do some measuring and supply a photo.



I was looking at sourcing online yesterday. But the pot's in a quite
restricted space, has an anti-rotation tab, and specific requirements on
the position of the flat on the shaft (maybe that's standard). Also, I
was quite unable to get a stable reading on the resistance from the
centre connection to either end, even after soldering wires to it -
presumably because of its wear. Also, it's impractical to make
(presumably voltage therefore) measurements in situe - the pedal
requires too much force, so I'd have to pull it out, and then either put
it back (it works most of the time), or do without for however long it
takes to source a replacement.

If Yamaha had offered me a replacement pedal unit for $lots, I'd have
taken a second look, but for about $25 including postage, I get a
replacement that's guaranteed to fit. Finding a substitute would likely
be more trouble that it was worth.

If the replacement fails before the piano definitively dies, or I do,
then I may look at retrofitting an optical sensor. I really only need
on/off. The pot's used for "pitch bending" which is not something I use.

Sylvia.

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is that
it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal is in
constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never designed
with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.
At least Yamaha are willing to supply just the pot. I was expecting them
to want to supply a complete replacement pedal mechanism, at some
exorbitant price.

Spares guy described it as a "volume" pot for the sustaining pedal

None in stock here, though - order from Japan - takes 4 weeks.

So much for supporting their product.

**How old is it? Beyond 7 years (or is it 5 now?) they don't have to do
diddly about spare parts supply, if they don't want to.

From the ACCC web site

"What is ‘reasonably available’ will depend on the particular
circumstances, such as the nature of the product and its expected useful
life. There is no minimum period for a manufacturer or importer to
provide facilities and spare parts for repair. However, a manufacturer
or importer will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the
failure to provide repair facilities and parts is found to be unreasonable."

This is a piano we're talking about, not an iPod. It cost not much shy
of $5000 seven years ago. I'd be surprised if a court found that it was
reasonable to cease supplying parts so soon.

Just appreciate that
they can get you the right part in 4 weeks. I could tell you stories about
ather brands, whose products have only been on the market for less than 2
years and the parts are NLA. Yamaha, IME, are one of the better companies
for spare parts support.

OTOH, let your fingers do the walking and look through the Farnell
cattle-dog. They have some very superior quality parts, which you may be
able coax into the right spot.

Maybe, though when I went through Farnell's site yesterday, and
considered the mechanical requirements, I couldn't find anything suitable.

Sylvia.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:29:43 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote:

It has three. Five volts on side. Zero on the other. Middling in the
middle. This presumably reduces its sensitivity to track wear.

Nope. The mechanical wear is all mechanical. Looking at a typical
spec sheet for commodity cermet potentiometers, I'm finding cycle
lifetimes from 100,000 to 1,000,000 cycles.

Someone suggested wirewound. Bad idea as they're only good for
perhaps 10,000 cycles:
http://www.calcentron.com/Pages/clarostat/clarostat_potentiometers.htm

I was looking at sourcing online yesterday. But the pot's in a quite
restricted space, has an anti-rotation tab, and specific requirements on
the position of the flat on the shaft (maybe that's standard). Also, I
was quite unable to get a stable reading on the resistance from the
centre connection to either end, even after soldering wires to it -
presumably because of its wear. Also, it's impractical to make
(presumably voltage therefore) measurements in situe - the pedal
requires too much force, so I'd have to pull it out, and then either put
it back (it works most of the time), or do without for however long it
takes to source a replacement.

I'll assume you tried lubing and cleaning it. If sealed, find a way
to open it. If it's a square pot, drill out the rivets and replace
them with 0-80 screws and nuts (or a piece of brass rod with the ends
smashed to form a rivet.

You're not supplying enough info to find a suitable replacement. End
to end resistance. If the voltage is half at midpoint, it's a linear
taper pot. The rest is mechanical. Anti-rotation tabs are standard.
The flat is usually where the screw goes on a know, which is on the
OPPOSITE side of where the arm would be pointing. If it's what I'm
guessing this is, you should have no problem finding a replacement.
Photo?

If Yamaha had offered me a replacement pedal unit for $lots, I'd have
taken a second look, but for about $25 including postage, I get a
replacement that's guaranteed to fit. Finding a substitute would likely
be more trouble that it was worth.

Well, that's why I have a well stocked junk box, some old devices to
cannibalize, and friends with an equal or greater mess of parts.

If the replacement fails before the piano definitively dies, or I do,
then I may look at retrofitting an optical sensor. I really only need
on/off. The pot's used for "pitch bending" which is not something I use.

Sorry. I assumed it was the damper. I wouldn't imagine the pitch
bending (portamento) control to be so heavily used as to wear out.
Something else is probably going on. It could be a defective pot, but
might also be some other type of failure. If the terminals are
available, you might want to temporarily attach an electrically
similar pot to the leads and see if it works.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Sorry. I assumed it was the damper. I wouldn't imagine the pitch
bending (portamento) control to be so heavily used as to wear out.

It's the same pedal - just used in a different mode. If you want both
functions simultaneously, you have to buy another pedal.

Sylvia.

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.
At least Yamaha are willing to supply just the pot. I was expecting them
to want to supply a complete replacement pedal mechanism, at some
exorbitant price.

Spares guy described it as a "volume" pot for the sustaining pedal

None in stock here, though - order from Japan - takes 4 weeks.

So much for supporting their product.

**How old is it? Beyond 7 years (or is it 5 now?) they don't have to do
diddly about spare parts supply, if they don't want to.

From the ACCC web site

"What is ‘reasonably available’ will depend on the particular
circumstances, such as the nature of the product and its expected useful
life. There is no minimum period for a manufacturer or importer to provide
facilities and spare parts for repair. However, a manufacturer or importer
will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the failure to
provide repair facilities and parts is found to be unreasonable."

This is a piano we're talking about, not an iPod. It cost not much shy of
$5000 seven years ago. I'd be surprised if a court found that it was
reasonable to cease supplying parts so soon.

Just appreciate that
they can get you the right part in 4 weeks. I could tell you stories
about ather brands, whose products have only been on the market for less
than 2 years and the parts are NLA. Yamaha, IME, are one of the better
companies for spare parts support.

OTOH, let your fingers do the walking and look through the Farnell
cattle-dog. They have some very superior quality parts, which you may be
able coax into the right spot.

Maybe, though when I went through Farnell's site yesterday, and considered
the mechanical requirements, I couldn't find anything suitable.

Sylvia.

I don't get what the problem is here. The pot has done 7 years. It's
knackered. Ho hum. Yammy will supply a direct replacement that will do
probably another 7 years for just $25 shipped. That's less than 7c a week. I
appreciate that the piano cost $5k (Aus ??) initially, but at the end of the
day, it's not exactly a Steinway, is it ? You could pay that much for a top
end LCD TV or a mediocre plasma, and find that you couldn't get parts, or
that they were prohibitively expensive, as little as 2 years down the line.

You might even have just been unlucky to have your pot fail in 7 years. If
Yammy don't have it available anywhere in your country, needing to de-stock
it from Japan, that might suggest that there is little call for
replacements.

Personally, I wouldn't give myself the grief of trying to shoehorn an
alternative in, with no guarantee that it's going to perform as the original
did, when a direct manufacturer's replacement is available at what I think
is a very reasonable cost, and with a life expectancy of at least another 7
years. Half of that cost is probably shipping and handling anyway, so get
two whilst you're at it for probably not a lot more, then you'll be ready to
roll again in another seven years ... d;~}

Arfa

"What is ‘reasonably available’ will depend on the particular
circumstances, such as the nature of the product and its
expected useful life. There is no minimum period for a
manufacturer or importer to provide facilities and spare parts
for repair.

There used to be.


However, a manufacturer
or importer will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the
failure to provide repair facilities and parts is found to be
unreasonable."

That's interesting. Could you point to a reference?


This is a piano we're talking about, not an iPod. It cost not much shy
of $5000 seven years ago. I'd be surprised if a court found that it was
reasonable to cease supplying parts so soon.

One shouldn't have to go to a court.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"What is ‘reasonably available’ will depend on the particular
circumstances, such as the nature of the product and its
expected useful life. There is no minimum period for a
manufacturer or importer to provide facilities and spare parts
for repair.

There used to be.


However, a manufacturer
or importer will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the
failure to provide repair facilities and parts is found to be
unreasonable."

That's interesting. Could you point to a reference?

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.../itemId/716812

Search the page for "spare parts"

The obligation to provide spare parts arises from the Trade Practices Act

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...4149/s74f.html

It's not clear where the ACCC got their figure of ten years from.



This is a piano we're talking about, not an iPod. It cost not much shy
of $5000 seven years ago. I'd be surprised if a court found that it was
reasonable to cease supplying parts so soon.

One shouldn't have to go to a court.



No, one shouldn't, but the courts are the final arbiters, so it makes
sense to base one's actions (to the extent that they're not voluntary
actions) on what the courts would decide if asked.

Sylvia.

However, a manufacturer
or importer will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the
failure to provide repair facilities and parts is found to be
unreasonable."

That's interesting. Could you point to a reference?

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.../itemId/716812

Ah. I keep forgetting that a large percentage of the people in this group
aren't Americans. US laws are somewhat different.

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"What is ‘reasonably available’ will depend on the particular
circumstances, such as the nature of the product and its
expected useful life. There is no minimum period for a
manufacturer or importer to provide facilities and spare parts
for repair.

There used to be.


However, a manufacturer
or importer will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the
failure to provide repair facilities and parts is found to be
unreasonable."

That's interesting. Could you point to a reference?

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.../itemId/716812

Search the page for "spare parts"

The obligation to provide spare parts arises from the Trade Practices Act

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...4149/s74f.html

It's not clear where the ACCC got their figure of ten years from.



This is a piano we're talking about, not an iPod. It cost not much shy
of $5000 seven years ago. I'd be surprised if a court found that it was
reasonable to cease supplying parts so soon.

One shouldn't have to go to a court.



No, one shouldn't, but the courts are the final arbiters, so it makes
sense to base one's actions (to the extent that they're not voluntary
actions) on what the courts would decide if asked.

Sylvia.

How has this gone from a simple knackered pot, that *is* freely available
from the manufacturer, and *is* very reasonably priced, to talk of court
cases, and forcing manufacturers to supply parts .... ??

Arfa

William Sommerwerck wrote:
However, a manufacturer
or importer will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the
failure to provide repair facilities and parts is found to be
unreasonable."

That's interesting. Could you point to a reference?

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.../itemId/716812

Ah. I keep forgetting that a large percentage of the people in this group
aren't Americans. US laws are somewhat different.



Ah yes, though Trevor is in Australia.

Sylvia.

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"What is ‘reasonably available’ will depend on the particular
circumstances, such as the nature of the product and its
expected useful life. There is no minimum period for a
manufacturer or importer to provide facilities and spare parts
for repair.
There used to be.


However, a manufacturer
or importer will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the
failure to provide repair facilities and parts is found to be
unreasonable."

That's interesting. Could you point to a reference?
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.../itemId/716812

Search the page for "spare parts"

The obligation to provide spare parts arises from the Trade Practices Act

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...4149/s74f.html

It's not clear where the ACCC got their figure of ten years from.


This is a piano we're talking about, not an iPod. It cost not much shy
of $5000 seven years ago. I'd be surprised if a court found that it was
reasonable to cease supplying parts so soon.
One shouldn't have to go to a court.


No, one shouldn't, but the courts are the final arbiters, so it makes
sense to base one's actions (to the extent that they're not voluntary
actions) on what the courts would decide if asked.

Sylvia.

How has this gone from a simple knackered pot, that *is* freely available
from the manufacturer, and *is* very reasonably priced, to talk of court
cases, and forcing manufacturers to supply parts .... ??

Arfa



Such is the way of the Usenet.

Sylvia.

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:09:15 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote:

Ummm... thanks for not calling it a rheostat.

Why on Earth would I do that?

Because it really is a rheostat. Officially, if there are three wires
involved, it a potentiometer. If there are only two, it's rheostat.
Since my FC-4 has only two connection on the phone jack, it's a
rheostat. However, the internal variable resistors in the non-optical
pedal mechanisms I've seen, use 3 wires.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer
Unfortunately, just about everyone uses these terms interchangeably.

It's the sustaining pedal on a 7 year old CLP-970. The sensor looks for
all the world like a pot.

http://music.yamaha.com/products/main.html?productId=109
Release data is Jan 1, 2000 which makes it at the bitter edge of when
Yamaha started using optical pedal mechanisms. It doesn't specify the
pedal mechanism, but only says "Half pedal effect (Right)" which makes
me wonder why they bothered to use a pot instead of two switches.

Fortunately, the CLP-970 is heavy enough to require two people to lift,
so there's no problem of its moving around.

Well, yeah. The pedals are part of the cabinet.

I'm rather surprised that you opted to get the original part from
Yamaha. Potentiometers are fairly generic and available. If you have
the old part, try to determine the taper (linear, log, audio, weird,
etc), and the value of the pot with an ohms-guesser. Also the shaft
type. Then go shopping online for a suitable replacement. If you
need help, do some measuring and supply a photo.




That is not my experience at all. Potentiometers fited to musical equipment
are far from generic, and you cannot buy most of them off the shelf.




Gareth.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed
12 screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the
business end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.
At least Yamaha are willing to supply just the pot. I was expecting
them to want to supply a complete replacement pedal mechanism, at some
exorbitant price.

Spares guy described it as a "volume" pot for the sustaining pedal

None in stock here, though - order from Japan - takes 4 weeks.

So much for supporting their product.

**How old is it? Beyond 7 years (or is it 5 now?) they don't have to do
diddly about spare parts supply, if they don't want to.

From the ACCC web site

"What is 'reasonably available' will depend on the particular
circumstances, such as the nature of the product and its expected useful
life. There is no minimum period for a manufacturer or importer to
provide facilities and spare parts for repair. However, a manufacturer or
importer will remain liable for damages for up to 10 years if the failure
to provide repair facilities and parts is found to be unreasonable."

This is a piano we're talking about, not an iPod. It cost not much shy of
$5000 seven years ago. I'd be surprised if a court found that it was
reasonable to cease supplying parts so soon.

Just appreciate that
they can get you the right part in 4 weeks. I could tell you stories
about ather brands, whose products have only been on the market for less
than 2 years and the parts are NLA. Yamaha, IME, are one of the better
companies for spare parts support.

OTOH, let your fingers do the walking and look through the Farnell
cattle-dog. They have some very superior quality parts, which you may be
able coax into the right spot.

Maybe, though when I went through Farnell's site yesterday, and
considered the mechanical requirements, I couldn't find anything
suitable.

Sylvia.

I don't get what the problem is here. The pot has done 7 years. It's
knackered. Ho hum. Yammy will supply a direct replacement that will do
probably another 7 years for just $25 shipped. That's less than 7c a week.
I appreciate that the piano cost $5k (Aus ??) initially, but at the end of
the day, it's not exactly a Steinway, is it ? You could pay that much for
a top end LCD TV or a mediocre plasma, and find that you couldn't get
parts, or that they were prohibitively expensive, as little as 2 years
down the line.

You might even have just been unlucky to have your pot fail in 7 years. If
Yammy don't have it available anywhere in your country, needing to
de-stock it from Japan, that might suggest that there is little call for
replacements.

Personally, I wouldn't give myself the grief of trying to shoehorn an
alternative in, with no guarantee that it's going to perform as the
original did, when a direct manufacturer's replacement is available at
what I think is a very reasonable cost, and with a life expectancy of at
least another 7 years. Half of that cost is probably shipping and handling
anyway, so get two whilst you're at it for probably not a lot more, then
you'll be ready to roll again in another seven years ... d;~}

Arfa




I'm totally with Arfa on this one.
It is unlikely you will find a pot that will fit without having to bodge
some way of getting it to work somehow. However it is completely likely
that Yamaha will sell you the correct one which will fit and work perfectly
for 7 years, as you have discovered.

I'm not really sure why there is any debate on this matter, other than the
few weeks wait as the pot is not in stock.




Gareth.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:16:10 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
put finger to keyboard and composed:


"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
. ..
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather flaky.
Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is that
it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal is in
constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never designed with
that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

It's not unusual to find pots in such applications, and there are types
which are specifically designed to have very long mechanical lives. Using a
pot keeps the circuitry simple. As an alternative, many guitar effects
pedals use an optical arrangement instead, where a shaded or shaped
'shutter' mechanically connected to the pedal, passes between an LED and a
phototransistor or diode, the varying DC resistance of the device caused as
a result of this, serving as the equivalent of the varying resistance of
your pot.

Arfa

IIRC, I have two Yamaha service manuals, one for a piano (CP10) and
one for an organ (Electone). I believe the organ uses a noiseless
"optical pot", but I'll have to check the piano. Both instruments are
probably around 20-30 years old.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:14:30 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

How has this gone from a simple knackered pot, that *is* freely available
from the manufacturer, and *is* very reasonably priced, to talk of court
cases, and forcing manufacturers to supply parts .... ??

Arfa

It's a corollary of Godwin's Law.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:29:43 +1000, Sylvia Else
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:09:15 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote:

Ummm... thanks for not calling it a rheostat.
Why on Earth would I do that?

Because it really is a rheostat. Officially, if there are three wires
involved, it a potentiometer. If there are only two, it's rheostat.

It has three. Five volts on side. Zero on the other. Middling in the
middle. This presumably reduces its sensitivity to track wear.

Yamaha's YC-45D and YC-25D combo organs use optical sensors -- two
wires for a 14V bulb, and two for a CdS photocell. Strictly speaking,
you should measure the resistance of your pot, in the absence of
power, to be sure that your device is not some fancy optical gadget
that is simulating a mechanical pot. But it does sound like it may be
the latter, and for $25 you would probably only want to treat this as
an academic exercise to satisfy your curiosity.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:29:43 +1000, Sylvia Else
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:09:15 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote:

Ummm... thanks for not calling it a rheostat.
Why on Earth would I do that?
Because it really is a rheostat. Officially, if there are three wires
involved, it a potentiometer. If there are only two, it's rheostat.
It has three. Five volts on side. Zero on the other. Middling in the
middle. This presumably reduces its sensitivity to track wear.

Yamaha's YC-45D and YC-25D combo organs use optical sensors -- two
wires for a 14V bulb, and two for a CdS photocell. Strictly speaking,
you should measure the resistance of your pot, in the absence of
power, to be sure that your device is not some fancy optical gadget
that is simulating a mechanical pot. But it does sound like it may be
the latter, and for $25 you would probably only want to treat this as
an academic exercise to satisfy your curiosity.

- Franc Zabkar

I did measure the resistance without power. It showed as 10K.

Sylvia.

Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:14:30 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

How has this gone from a simple knackered pot, that *is* freely available
from the manufacturer, and *is* very reasonably priced, to talk of court
cases, and forcing manufacturers to supply parts .... ??

Arfa

It's a corollary of Godwin's Law.

- Franc Zabkar

That would be 'Godwin's Lawyer' which states that the longer a usenet
thread runs, the more likely it is that one party will threaten another
with legal action.



Ron

That would be 'Godwin's Lawyer' which states that the longer a usenet
thread runs, the more likely it is that one party will threaten another
with legal action.

Are the Nazis and Commies at it again? Oh wait! The Commies are really
Nazis in disguise! They just hate the other Nazis!!
Bwaaa Ha Ha Ha Haaaaaaaaaaa!!

On Aug 26, 12:12*am, Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

I have three pedals on my General Music PRO-1 keyboard. Two are are
KORG brand and the other is something else but the same design. I
took one apart a few year ago to clean and, IIRC, it was a compression
design. They work perfectly, don't fail and I only paid about $25
each.
Cheers,
Roger

"Engineer" wrote in message
...
On Aug 26, 12:12 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

I have three pedals on my General Music PRO-1 keyboard. Two are are
KORG brand and the other is something else but the same design. I
took one apart a few year ago to clean and, IIRC, it was a compression
design. They work perfectly, don't fail and I only paid about $25
each.
Cheers,
Roger

You got me there. What's a 'compression' design ?

Arfa

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 01:56:48 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

"Engineer" wrote in message

I have three pedals on my General Music PRO-1 keyboard. Two are are
KORG brand and the other is something else but the same design. I
took one apart a few year ago to clean and, IIRC, it was a compression
design. They work perfectly, don't fail and I only paid about $25
each.
Cheers,
Roger

You got me there. What's a 'compression' design ?

Arfa

Strain gauge??? Capacitive transducer???

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

On Sep 11, 8:54*pm, Franc Zabkar wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 01:56:48 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

"Engineer" wrote in message
I have three pedals on my General Music PRO-1 keyboard. *Two are are
KORG brand and the other is something else but the same design. *I
took one apart a few year ago to clean and, IIRC, it was a compression
design. *They work perfectly, don't fail and I only paid about $25
each.
Cheers,
Roger

You got me there. What's a 'compression' design ?

Arfa

Strain gauge??? Capacitive transducer???

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Yes, a strain gauge of some type for variable resistance... it's been
a while since I looked inside them! No potentiometers or linkages
except pedal fulcrum.
Cheers,
Roger

Sylvia Else wrote:
The sustaining pedal on my Yamaha electronic piano is become rather
flaky. Sometimes it doesn't sustain when pressed.

So I disassembled the piano enough to get at the mechanism, (removed 12
screws, and 6 bolts), and was rather surprised to see that the business
end consists of a potentiometre.

I'm not really surprised that it's failing. In fact, the surprise is
that it's lasted so long. When a piano is played, the sustaining pedal
is in constant use. I can't help feeling potentiometres were never
designed with that kind of use in mind.

The design seems rather primitive.

Sylvia.

I just today received the new pot.

It's an odd device. Over most of its range the resistance doesn't vary.
All the change occurs within quite a small angle. This makes a kind of
sense, given that the pedal mechanism doesn't rotate it far. But it
seems to imply that the pots were specially made, which can't have
helped to keep the price down.

Sylvia.