On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:23:32 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

That is about where I have arrived at now Jeff. This week, I will spend a
little more time on it just for my own interest, but if it is not giving up
its secrets in fairly short order, then the job will get knocked on the head
once and for all.

I kinda like the hot melt glue theory. Place the unit in an oven and
see if the sides fall off. There are a few products assembled this
way (i.e. Palm V). In the same oven, place a pair of aluminum plates
that are hot melt glued together. When the plates come apart, try
pulling on various parts of the radio. It usually doesn't take much
heat, so don't worry about melting the plastic. The contact paper on
the back plate might try to peel, but that can be reattached before it
cools. Good luck.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:58:31 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


I don't think the manufactory will be much help as their domain
appears to be gone:
http://www.genusdigital.com

google brings up some other info on them:-

Peterden House, 1A Leighton Road
London W13 9EL, UNITED KINGDOM


Copyright Genius Consultancy & Marketing Ltd 2005

020 7575 3298, Fax: +44 20 7575 3198

--
Geo

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:53:15 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:


"PeterD" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:30:28 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:
... then it will be
returned to its owner unrepaired, along with a bill for the workshop time
spent on it.

Nothing beats billing the customer when the repair person doesn't have
the skills to complete the repair...


Thank you friend. Most helpful. Clearly you have no concept of the
practicalities of running a repair business. If you have nothing
constructive to add, please refrain from bothering to comment.

Arfa


Only about 30 years of service experience. Pet pieve: shops that
charge the customer for their lack of skills...

If the customer said they'd pay for an honest try, then bill them. If
not, charging them is inappropriate no matter what you think. It is
not the customer's fault or problem that you can't get the radio
apart.

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:16:31 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:


"Fleetie" wrote in message
news
Thank you friend. Most helpful. Clearly you have no concept of the
practicalities of running a repair business. If you have nothing
constructive to add, please refrain from bothering to comment.

Arfa

Hi Arfa. Been a while!

I do agree that the grandparent's comment was not phrased very nicely,
and I've always enjoyed our interactions on Usenet, but I have to say,
if someone tried that on me, and tried to bill me for providing (from my
point of view) no service, I'd leave the afflicted unit with them, and
walk off forever.

I understand that you expended time and effort attempting to fix it,
but from the customer's point of view, there's been zero benefit.
Why would they pay?

I'm NOT having a go at you; I hope you don't think I am. Is this a
situation that has occurred before with you? If so, what percentage
of the people paid up? I think maybe if you waived the charge,
at least they might come back in future, or at least speak kindly of
you to their acquaintances. Now it sounds like I'm trying to tell you
how to run your business! Sorry; of course I'm not.

Hope you're ok, anyway!


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967
110890
Manchester, U.K.
http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie



Hi Fleetie. No offence taken - from you at least ... ! Grandparent ?
Genuinely ?

Gee, didn't realize it showed. Yes, true.


What I did object to was that someone who knows nothing of me, my training,
my qualifications, my skill levels or my business, saw fit to make a
scathing comment on here about the way this job might ultimately get
handled.

And yet you did the same to me! Come on, let's be fair, the customer
should always receive value for their money. I never have charged for
a failed attempt. I do charge for diagnostic work, but the customer
knows that in advance. Did you advise the customer of that?


It is very common in the domestic repair business, here in the UK at least,
for an advance deposit to be taken from the customer. If the repair goes
ahead, this amount is credited to the final bill.

There are certainly various rules in various areas and regions. I am
not in the UK. We have the customer sign an estimate, which covers
both the estimated repair cost (with a reasonable variance such as +-
15%) and a diagnostic charge.

All of the shops that I
take work from, have this policy, and it is carefully explained to each and
every customer that books an item in, as well as being posted in written
form, behind the counter. I have been in these shops on many occasions when
items have been booked in, and I can't remember ever having heard anyone
object.

As long as that is clear to the customer, and they agreed to it, then
fine. You didn't say that in your post, just that you'd charge the
customer.


The thing is, there are many reasons these days, why repairs don't go ahead.
These include costs of spares which make a repair impractical - DVD lasers
for instance - lack of availability of parts, and the low cost of
replacement of the whole unit by something from the local supermarket or
Argos barn. Sometimes, even a lack of service information is enough to
prevent a practical repair.

So, on a bad week, maybe 20% of jobs might not be completed for one reason
or another. Should I just forfeit a day's earnings because of things out of
my control ? Customers even think that they are doing you a favour by
letting you keep their junk "for spares". I don't want endless pieces of
worthless rubbish stacking up in my workshop. If the repair doesn't go ahead
for whatever reason, either they take it back, or if they leave it with me,
it's going to be disposed of, which nowadays, costs money. You can't just
drop it off at the local tip for free any more, and the money is not going
to come out of my pocket, on top of getting nothing for the time that has
been spent evaluating the repair in the first place.

Of course, it is not a totally black and white situation. If a repair is not
completed because I believe that in some way, my ability to fix it is
lacking - and no matter who might tell you otherwise, it does sometimes
happen, and no matter how good you are at practical component level
fault-finding and repair, the odd one will never-the-less defeat you - then
I *will* waive my charge on it, and the shop that took it in will often
refund theirs as well. I and they, have not managed to continue in business
for 35 years, without understanding the principles of customer goodwill, but
by the same token, we also haven't managed to stay in business that long, by
being impractical in our billing regime.

So, where I have made every practical effort, including bench time,
telephone calls and internet time, to facilitate a fix on a piece of
equipment, but been defeated not by a lack of ability, but by the
manufacturer, due to their pricing or service assistance policies, or even
by them hiding away behind a name that doesn't seem to exist anywhere other
than on the front of their kit, as in this case, I will continue with my
current charging policy. My cable internet provider does not give me service
for free, neither does my phone company give me theirs. I don't give mine
for free either.

Just as a slight aside. A year or two back, I had a problem with my car. It
went into the garage four times, and each time it came back with a bill for
parts and labour, and each time, the problem persisted. I queried why I
should be expected to pay for parts that had been fitted, which had not
cured the problem.

Agreed, this really is bad service. It is unacceptable to charge a
customer for the same repair twice (when the first repair did not
clear the problem), regardless of the excuse!

I was told that most faults on engines these days were
diagnosed by reference to the fault codes held in the EMU, and that once a
part that was pointed to in this way had been ordered and fitted, it could
not be taken back off again and returned, as the seal on the box had been
broken.

Common 'scam' in the automotive world. Most places have 'test' modules
to substitute for suspected failed parts. What you describe is
shot-gun replacement of parts at teh customer's expense.

I put it to them that if the diagnostics or the mechanic's
interpretation of them was wrong, then that wasn't my problem, and the part
should go on their shelf at their cost, for next time. I was told that it
was "just company policy mate", and was "in common with the way that most
garages work."

And a good reason to both not go back there again, and to tell
everyone exactly what happend, where and why you don't go back! g



Now if I ordered a laser in for an item, and it didn't cure the fault, I
would see that as my fault as I had misdiagnosed the problem, and I would
put the owner's original back in. So there you have it. Am I doing anything
worse than them ? If anybody thinks so, then I actually don't really care.

And to Pete D. I'm sorry if my response to your comment offended but,
normally placid guy that I am, I do tend to get a bit spiky when someone who
knows nothing about me, calls my skills, integrity and business acumen, into
question. d;~}

No problem g, I doubt you were any more offended than I was at your
reply! (did that come out right?) This latest reply from you was both
informative and interesting. Perhaps some day we should start a thread
about how to handle cases such as this...

Peter.

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:39:07 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

The issue is a question of what constitutes ethical treatment of the
customer.

Problems occur when the shop charges an hourly rate and runs into a problem
that doesn't quickly yield. I can fully understand -- and completely
sympathize with -- an experienced service tech who can't figure out how to
open a radio with no detectable closures, and a hard-to-find service manual,
even after an hour's work. * But I'm not going to pay an hour's labor for
the time it took to get it open, whether or not he successfully repaired the
radio.

I don't expect a service technician to be ominiscient. Neither do I expect
to pay for his training. When an item goes back repeatedly for the same
problem, the service shop should make some sort of accomodation. In the case
of the incompetent repair of your car, the shop should not have been charged
for labor after the second attempt. "Just company policy" or "that's the way
most garages work" are not valid excuses.

[Please don't take the following personally, because it isn't meant as such.
When I have a problem that isn't satisfactorially resolved, and get hit with
such a remark, I tell the company that I'm only interested in what I want,
and don't care the least about what they want, as businesses are not human
beings, and don't deserve any form of personal consideration. Of course, if
the business doesn't make a consistent profit, it will go out of business,
but what is right for the customer has to take precedence. Businesses have
to treat the customer as they would like to be treated, and find a way to do
it that is consistent with good fiscal practice.]

One of the most-popular Public Radio shows in the US is "Car Talk" with Tom
and Ray Magliazzi, MIT grads who run a service shop. They usually know what
they're talking about, but don't claim to know absolutely everything **
(though sometimes you think they do). Anyhow, last weekend a woman told
about how her brakes would gradually seize -- of their own accord! -- until
the car was undriveable. The shop made two or three attempts -- for which
she was charged parts and labor -- but could not fix the car. Tom & Ray
suggested that the problem was with the power-braking assist pump, which
will probably turn out to be correct. In this particular case, the shop
appears to have been grossly incompetent.

In the US, service shops -- of which there is a declining number -- usually
charge a flat fee (which varies among device types, depending on their
complexity and ease of servicing) to spread out the costs among the easy-
and hard-to-repair units. The customer knows ahead of time what the charge
will be, and can make a rational decision about the repair. As long as the
item is correctly repaired, the customer shouldn't have anything much to
complain about.

Perhaps you should consider switching to a flat-rate system, which would
largely eliminate the problem of deciding what to charge for a difficult
repair. You would probably make more money and have fewer unhappy customers.
And I'll bet you'll work more efficiently and with less mental frustration.

* I've had "simple" problems that I just couldn't figure out. One was a Sony
Walkman with a built-in mono speaker that would not switch to stereo when
headphones were plugged in. Despite having the official sercvice manual, two
hours of aggravating analysis, spread over several days, refused to unearth
the problem, and I tossed it.

** There's a show segment called "Stump the Chumps" (the reference is to
"Stump the Band"), in which someone they'd given advice to returns to reveal
whether it was correct. It usually was -- but not always.


Dear god, let's not bring click and clack into this! Then things would
get messy fast...

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:23:32 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



That is about where I have arrived at now Jeff. This week, I will spend a
little more time on it just for my own interest, but if it is not giving up
its secrets in fairly short order, then the job will get knocked on the head
once and for all.

Arfa


Try using a (strong) magnet around that 'leather' back and see if you
can detect screws under it. That may work.

"PeterD" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:39:07 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

The issue is a question of what constitutes ethical treatment of the
customer.

Problems occur when the shop charges an hourly rate and runs into a
problem
that doesn't quickly yield. I can fully understand -- and completely
sympathize with -- an experienced service tech who can't figure out how to
open a radio with no detectable closures, and a hard-to-find service
manual,
even after an hour's work. * But I'm not going to pay an hour's labor for
the time it took to get it open, whether or not he successfully repaired
the
radio.

I don't expect a service technician to be ominiscient. Neither do I expect
to pay for his training. When an item goes back repeatedly for the same
problem, the service shop should make some sort of accomodation. In the
case
of the incompetent repair of your car, the shop should not have been
charged
for labor after the second attempt. "Just company policy" or "that's the
way
most garages work" are not valid excuses.

[Please don't take the following personally, because it isn't meant as
such.
When I have a problem that isn't satisfactorially resolved, and get hit
with
such a remark, I tell the company that I'm only interested in what I want,
and don't care the least about what they want, as businesses are not human
beings, and don't deserve any form of personal consideration. Of course,
if
the business doesn't make a consistent profit, it will go out of business,
but what is right for the customer has to take precedence. Businesses have
to treat the customer as they would like to be treated, and find a way to
do
it that is consistent with good fiscal practice.]

One of the most-popular Public Radio shows in the US is "Car Talk" with
Tom
and Ray Magliazzi, MIT grads who run a service shop. They usually know
what
they're talking about, but don't claim to know absolutely everything **
(though sometimes you think they do). Anyhow, last weekend a woman told
about how her brakes would gradually seize -- of their own accord! --
until
the car was undriveable. The shop made two or three attempts -- for which
she was charged parts and labor -- but could not fix the car. Tom & Ray
suggested that the problem was with the power-braking assist pump, which
will probably turn out to be correct. In this particular case, the shop
appears to have been grossly incompetent.

In the US, service shops -- of which there is a declining number --
usually
charge a flat fee (which varies among device types, depending on their
complexity and ease of servicing) to spread out the costs among the easy-
and hard-to-repair units. The customer knows ahead of time what the charge
will be, and can make a rational decision about the repair. As long as the
item is correctly repaired, the customer shouldn't have anything much to
complain about.

Perhaps you should consider switching to a flat-rate system, which would
largely eliminate the problem of deciding what to charge for a difficult
repair. You would probably make more money and have fewer unhappy
customers.
And I'll bet you'll work more efficiently and with less mental
frustration.

* I've had "simple" problems that I just couldn't figure out. One was a
Sony
Walkman with a built-in mono speaker that would not switch to stereo when
headphones were plugged in. Despite having the official sercvice manual,
two
hours of aggravating analysis, spread over several days, refused to
unearth
the problem, and I tossed it.

** There's a show segment called "Stump the Chumps" (the reference is to
"Stump the Band"), in which someone they'd given advice to returns to
reveal
whether it was correct. It usually was -- but not always.


Dear god, let's not bring click and clack into this! Then things would
get messy fast...

As it happens, I do charge a flat rate to the trade, and most of the stores
that I deal with do similarly to the customer who brings the item in, the
actual amount being dependant on what exactly the item is. My flat rate
includes parts to a value of 5GBP, which covers general transistors, diodes,
resistors etc. If the cost of parts (or occasionally labour) is going to
exceed that, I contact the store which took it in, and give them a quote.
Sometimes, knowing the customer, or based on indications of what he said he
was prepared to pay when the job was booked in, the store owner can give me
a go-ahead there and then. Sometimes, they have to contact the customer to
get a go ahead. In general, it's a good system, and everyone pretty much
knows where they stand from the outset. From my point of view, it allows a
degree of 'some ya win, some ya lose' flexibility to be automatically built
into jobs from any particular store. However, I don't treat it as a
catch-all that can be applied absolutely rigidly to all jobs. Yes, I am
prepared to lose sometimes against making at others, but it still has to be
based around a basic one hour figure, if the losses are not to exceed the
gains. There are very few 'stock faults' these days, which means that more
and more, every fault has to be 'chased down' which takes you on average,
ever closer to that one hour figure, and not making a reasonable profit
overall.

For that reason, if no other, I will continue to charge in the way that I
always have. It has never caused me a problem in the past, and I don't
envisage that it will in the future. There will always be people who do not
approve of a particular business practice or pricing regime, but as long as
it is leagal, and the majority don't have a problem with it, then any issues
that the minority might have, I see as their problem, not mine. Anyway, none
of this debate, interesting as it is, gets me any closer to resolving the
primary problem, so no more, please ....

Arfa

As it happens, I do charge a flat rate to the trade, and most of the
stores
that I deal with do similarly to the customer who brings the item in, the
actual amount being dependant on what exactly the item is. My flat rate
includes parts to a value of 5GBP, which covers general transistors,
diodes,
resistors etc. If the cost of parts (or occasionally labour) is going to
exceed that, I contact the store which took it in, and give them a quote.
Sometimes, knowing the customer, or based on indications of what he said
he
was prepared to pay when the job was booked in, the store owner can give
me
a go-ahead there and then. Sometimes, they have to contact the customer to
get a go ahead. In general, it's a good system, and everyone pretty much
knows where they stand from the outset. From my point of view, it allows a
degree of 'some ya win, some ya lose' flexibility to be automatically
built
into jobs from any particular store. However, I don't treat it as a
catch-all that can be applied absolutely rigidly to all jobs. Yes, I am
prepared to lose sometimes against making at others, but it still has to
be
based around a basic one hour figure, if the losses are not to exceed the
gains. There are very few 'stock faults' these days, which means that more
and more, every fault has to be 'chased down' which takes you on average,
ever closer to that one hour figure, and not making a reasonable profit
overall.

For that reason, if no other, I will continue to charge in the way that I
always have. It has never caused me a problem in the past, and I don't
envisage that it will in the future. There will always be people who do
not
approve of a particular business practice or pricing regime, but as long
as
it is leagal, and the majority don't have a problem with it, then any
issues
that the minority might have, I see as their problem, not mine. Anyway,
none
of this debate, interesting as it is, gets me any closer to resolving the
primary problem, so no more, please ....


Agreed. But I think it was a valid point. And (though it probably doesn't
matter to you what I think), it seems to me that you /are/ running your
business in a fair and ethical manner.

As to the original problem... I come back to the suggestion of having a
dentist X-ray one side of the cabinet. Other than heating the back in the
hope that peeling off the covering will reveal recessed screws, I don't see
any other way -- short of a service manual -- of finding out just what keeps
it together.

I'll stick with my belief that it slides/snaps into place. Press on the
back, then slide it down. As Sherlock would likely say, you've pretty much
eliminated just about everything else.

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:02:20 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Agreed. But I think it was a valid point. And (though it probably doesn't
matter to you what I think), it seems to me that you /are/ running your
business in a fair and ethical manner.

Dental xrays cover only a very small area. The largest is 2.7x5.4cm.
What you want is one of those bomb detector xray machines used at
airports and government buildings. The aluminum case will be a
penetratin problem, but the wood sides should be transparent.

I recently had some KUB (kidneys, ureters, and bladder) xrays done at
the local hospital. I asked if they could xray small electronics. I
was thinking more about reverse engineering multi-layer PCB's. After
some muddled officious logic, the hospital refused due to some vague
"risk", whatever that may be. My guess is that they just didn't want
to risk they very expensive new xray machine on such projects. There
was also an issue of the cost. Lacking any other guidelines, the
estimated price would have been about the same as the KUB xrays, or
$200US per digital print (including cash discount).

I'm thinking a CT scan might be more useful. I also had to run an
abdominal CT scan for about $1000US (including cash discount).
However, I didn't ask at the radiology imaging service if it were
possible. Probably not, due to the same "risk" and cost issues.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:02:20 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Agreed. But I think it was a valid point. And (though it probably doesn't
matter to you what I think), it seems to me that you /are/ running your
business in a fair and ethical manner.

Dental xrays cover only a very small area. The largest is 2.7x5.4cm.
What you want is one of those bomb detector xray machines used at
airports and government buildings. The aluminum case will be a
penetratin problem, but the wood sides should be transparent.

I recently had some KUB (kidneys, ureters, and bladder) xrays done at
the local hospital. I asked if they could xray small electronics. I
was thinking more about reverse engineering multi-layer PCB's. After
some muddled officious logic, the hospital refused due to some vague
"risk", whatever that may be. My guess is that they just didn't want
to risk they very expensive new xray machine on such projects. There
was also an issue of the cost. Lacking any other guidelines, the
estimated price would have been about the same as the KUB xrays, or
$200US per digital print (including cash discount).

I'm thinking a CT scan might be more useful. I also had to run an
abdominal CT scan for about $1000US (including cash discount).
However, I didn't ask at the radiology imaging service if it were
possible. Probably not, due to the same "risk" and cost issues.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Cultivating a contact in a university archaeology department would perhaps
be more suitable and cheaper.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"PeterD" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:23:32 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



That is about where I have arrived at now Jeff. This week, I will spend a
little more time on it just for my own interest, but if it is not giving
up
its secrets in fairly short order, then the job will get knocked on the
head
once and for all.

Arfa


Try using a (strong) magnet around that 'leather' back and see if you
can detect screws under it. That may work.

OK. I'm in ! Based on the fact that if I couldn't get into it, it was
knackered anyway, I had another go today. Using your idea of a very strong
magnet around the leatherette back panel (which is aluminium underneath) I
could *just* detect a very slight 'pull' at each of the four corners.
Several minutes of quite intense heat on the leatherette, just resulted in
it getting too hot to touch. No signs of any glue melting, so I took my
blunt curve-bladed scalpel, and dug in at the edge, slowly working the blade
under. Turns out that under the leatherette is a layer of some fibrous
cardboardy-type material, which is a good thermal insulator, so no heat gets
through to melt the glue ... Total thickness of material, probably about
1.5mm !

Anyway, once the corners were peeled back, a Philips head screw was revealed
at each corner. Even after these had been removed, the back still resisted
removal. After more work with the scalpel blade in the crack, followed by a
screwdriver tip, it finally came away, after breaking the seal made by the
Space Shuttle tile fixing-grade double sided adhesive tape that had been put
there.

Now call me picky if you like, but I consider this to be taking the **** by
the manufacturer. By using this sort of fixing method, they are clearly
defining this expensive radio, as fundamentally non-repairable.

But here's the real bummer. The original problem was that the unit was dead.
Not just a bit. Totally dead. The coaxial type DC socket felt a little
loose, and I was quite convinced that it would have nicely cracked
(lead-free) joints on it, once I got in there, but no. The joints look fine.
And guess what ? With the PCB out, it now works. Absolutely solid, not the
slightest sign of intermittency. Has run for hours without any sign of a
problem at all. I will go over all the joints in the power supply section
anyway, and maybe replace the little tactile switch that controls the
electronic power switching circuitry.

I think that the leatherette is going to be difficult to glue back down as
neatly as it was originally, because of the cardboard substrate. I think
that I might just poke a tiny hole through it above each screw position, and
tell the owner that if it has to come back, I will be cutting a small cross
in the leatherette above each screw, to allow them to be removed without
repeating the destuctive removal process.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Got there in the end ... :-)

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"PeterD" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:23:32 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



That is about where I have arrived at now Jeff. This week, I will spend a
little more time on it just for my own interest, but if it is not giving
up
its secrets in fairly short order, then the job will get knocked on the
head
once and for all.

Arfa


Try using a (strong) magnet around that 'leather' back and see if you
can detect screws under it. That may work.

OK. I'm in ! Based on the fact that if I couldn't get into it, it was
knackered anyway, I had another go today. Using your idea of a very strong
magnet around the leatherette back panel (which is aluminium underneath) I
could *just* detect a very slight 'pull' at each of the four corners.
Several minutes of quite intense heat on the leatherette, just resulted in
it getting too hot to touch. No signs of any glue melting, so I took my
blunt curve-bladed scalpel, and dug in at the edge, slowly working the
blade under. Turns out that under the leatherette is a layer of some
fibrous cardboardy-type material, which is a good thermal insulator, so no
heat gets through to melt the glue ... Total thickness of material,
probably about 1.5mm !

Anyway, once the corners were peeled back, a Philips head screw was
revealed at each corner. Even after these had been removed, the back still
resisted removal. After more work with the scalpel blade in the crack,
followed by a screwdriver tip, it finally came away, after breaking the
seal made by the Space Shuttle tile fixing-grade double sided adhesive
tape that had been put there.

Now call me picky if you like, but I consider this to be taking the ****
by the manufacturer. By using this sort of fixing method, they are clearly
defining this expensive radio, as fundamentally non-repairable.

But here's the real bummer. The original problem was that the unit was
dead. Not just a bit. Totally dead. The coaxial type DC socket felt a
little loose, and I was quite convinced that it would have nicely cracked
(lead-free) joints on it, once I got in there, but no. The joints look
fine. And guess what ? With the PCB out, it now works. Absolutely solid,
not the slightest sign of intermittency. Has run for hours without any
sign of a problem at all. I will go over all the joints in the power
supply section anyway, and maybe replace the little tactile switch that
controls the electronic power switching circuitry.

I think that the leatherette is going to be difficult to glue back down as
neatly as it was originally, because of the cardboard substrate. I think
that I might just poke a tiny hole through it above each screw position,
and tell the owner that if it has to come back, I will be cutting a small
cross in the leatherette above each screw, to allow them to be removed
without repeating the destuctive removal process.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Got there in the end ...
:-)

Great!
I've been watching this thread hoping you'd find fasteners under the
leatherette.

From my reply of 1/10:

"This is very common in cameras. Some of them have 'fillers' in the screw
holes over the screw heads to prevent 'dimples' from showing in the
leatherette."

I almost got it right, except the 'fillers' were a cardboardy-type material.
:-)

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:40:02 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Turns out that under the leatherette is a layer of some fibrous
cardboardy-type material, which is a good thermal insulator, so no heat gets
through to melt the glue ... Total thickness of material, probably about
1.5mm !

Nope. My guess(tm) is the cardboard is to prevent resonant acoustic
vibration of the back panel. Also, some posssible microphonics, but
that's unlikely with a digital radio. The double sided tape is
possibly part of fixing the same problem. When you put it together,
run an audio sweep with your hypothetical DAB generator to check if
there are any mechanical resonances.

Now call me picky if you like, but I consider this to be taking the **** by
the manufacturer. By using this sort of fixing method, they are clearly
defining this expensive radio, as fundamentally non-repairable.

Yep. However, I don't think that was the original intention. My
guess(tm) is that it was a side effect of the acoustic damping
prevention efforts.

I will go over all the joints in the power supply section
anyway, and maybe replace the little tactile switch that controls the
electronic power switching circuitry.

Good idea. My guess(tm) is a broken conductor hidden inside an
insulated wire near the power connector, or on-off section. Chop the
cable ties and try pulling on each wire to see if any of them come
apart or stretch.

I think that the leatherette is going to be difficult to glue back down as
neatly as it was originally,

Replace the 4 screws in the corners with the equivalent thread and
length, but using a decorative screw head and decorative washer. In
other words, compress the cardboard and leatherette under the
crumbling cardboard and covering.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Got there in the end ... :-)

Congrats. Great idea (PeterD) using a magnet to find the screw heads.

Incidentally, I found parts and pieces of the old genusdigital.com web
pile under archive.org, but there was no detail, support, manuals,
docs, or even decent photos.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"PeterD" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:23:32 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



That is about where I have arrived at now Jeff. This week, I will spend
a
little more time on it just for my own interest, but if it is not giving
up
its secrets in fairly short order, then the job will get knocked on the
head
once and for all.

Arfa


Try using a (strong) magnet around that 'leather' back and see if you
can detect screws under it. That may work.

OK. I'm in ! Based on the fact that if I couldn't get into it, it was
knackered anyway, I had another go today. Using your idea of a very strong
magnet around the leatherette back panel (which is aluminium underneath) I
could *just* detect a very slight 'pull' at each of the four corners.
Several minutes of quite intense heat on the leatherette, just resulted in
it getting too hot to touch. No signs of any glue melting, so I took my
blunt curve-bladed scalpel, and dug in at the edge, slowly working the
blade
under. Turns out that under the leatherette is a layer of some fibrous
cardboardy-type material, which is a good thermal insulator, so no heat
gets
through to melt the glue ... Total thickness of material, probably about
1.5mm !

Anyway, once the corners were peeled back, a Philips head screw was
revealed
at each corner. Even after these had been removed, the back still resisted
removal. After more work with the scalpel blade in the crack, followed by
a
screwdriver tip, it finally came away, after breaking the seal made by the
Space Shuttle tile fixing-grade double sided adhesive tape that had been
put
there.

Now call me picky if you like, but I consider this to be taking the ****
by
the manufacturer. By using this sort of fixing method, they are clearly
defining this expensive radio, as fundamentally non-repairable.

But here's the real bummer. The original problem was that the unit was
dead.
Not just a bit. Totally dead. The coaxial type DC socket felt a little
loose, and I was quite convinced that it would have nicely cracked
(lead-free) joints on it, once I got in there, but no. The joints look
fine.
And guess what ? With the PCB out, it now works. Absolutely solid, not the
slightest sign of intermittency. Has run for hours without any sign of a
problem at all. I will go over all the joints in the power supply section
anyway, and maybe replace the little tactile switch that controls the
electronic power switching circuitry.

I think that the leatherette is going to be difficult to glue back down as
neatly as it was originally, because of the cardboard substrate. I think
that I might just poke a tiny hole through it above each screw position,
and
tell the owner that if it has to come back, I will be cutting a small
cross
in the leatherette above each screw, to allow them to be removed without
repeating the destuctive removal process.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Got there in the end ...
:-)

Arfa



An other idea is to increase the retro look and disguise the damage by
gluing upholstery stud heads (pins criopped off) on the corners.
A magnet on a piece of thread is usually better for divining hidden
iron/steel

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"1D10T" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"PeterD" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:23:32 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



That is about where I have arrived at now Jeff. This week, I will spend
a
little more time on it just for my own interest, but if it is not giving
up
its secrets in fairly short order, then the job will get knocked on the
head
once and for all.

Arfa


Try using a (strong) magnet around that 'leather' back and see if you
can detect screws under it. That may work.

OK. I'm in ! Based on the fact that if I couldn't get into it, it was
knackered anyway, I had another go today. Using your idea of a very
strong magnet around the leatherette back panel (which is aluminium
underneath) I could *just* detect a very slight 'pull' at each of the
four corners. Several minutes of quite intense heat on the leatherette,
just resulted in it getting too hot to touch. No signs of any glue
melting, so I took my blunt curve-bladed scalpel, and dug in at the edge,
slowly working the blade under. Turns out that under the leatherette is a
layer of some fibrous cardboardy-type material, which is a good thermal
insulator, so no heat gets through to melt the glue ... Total thickness
of material, probably about 1.5mm !

Anyway, once the corners were peeled back, a Philips head screw was
revealed at each corner. Even after these had been removed, the back
still resisted removal. After more work with the scalpel blade in the
crack, followed by a screwdriver tip, it finally came away, after
breaking the seal made by the Space Shuttle tile fixing-grade double
sided adhesive tape that had been put there.

Now call me picky if you like, but I consider this to be taking the ****
by the manufacturer. By using this sort of fixing method, they are
clearly defining this expensive radio, as fundamentally non-repairable.

But here's the real bummer. The original problem was that the unit was
dead. Not just a bit. Totally dead. The coaxial type DC socket felt a
little loose, and I was quite convinced that it would have nicely cracked
(lead-free) joints on it, once I got in there, but no. The joints look
fine. And guess what ? With the PCB out, it now works. Absolutely solid,
not the slightest sign of intermittency. Has run for hours without any
sign of a problem at all. I will go over all the joints in the power
supply section anyway, and maybe replace the little tactile switch that
controls the electronic power switching circuitry.

I think that the leatherette is going to be difficult to glue back down
as neatly as it was originally, because of the cardboard substrate. I
think that I might just poke a tiny hole through it above each screw
position, and tell the owner that if it has to come back, I will be
cutting a small cross in the leatherette above each screw, to allow them
to be removed without repeating the destuctive removal process.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Got there in the end ... :-)

Great!
I've been watching this thread hoping you'd find fasteners under the
leatherette.

From my reply of 1/10:

"This is very common in cameras. Some of them have 'fillers' in the screw
holes over the screw heads to prevent 'dimples' from showing in the
leatherette."

I almost got it right, except the 'fillers' were a cardboardy-type
material. :-)



Yes - good call. They are not just fillers though. The entire back is
covered with the stuff, so there was not the slightest chance of being able
to feel even the tiniest disturbance in the overall smoothness of the back.
I can sort of understand it with cameras, as they are extremely specialist
items to repair in the first place, and not something that you would expect
to pay cheap to have repaired. The cosmetics are also important on such
items, but doing it on a transistor radio ? OK, I know it's an elegant
looking thing, and I know it's quite expensive, but the back is hardly going
to be predominantly on display, and even if it were, I'm sure that some nice
chromium plated screws could be found. By using Allen headed types, some
manufacturers even make a decorative feature of them. I'm sure that with
this item, it's mostly a case of them not wanting anyone to get in there.

When I turned on the bench this morning, it came straight on again. Ho hum
.... :-/

Arfa

Now call me picky if you like, but I consider this to be taking
the **** by the manufacturer. By using this sort of fixing method,
they are clearly defining this expensive radio as fundamentally
non-repairable.

No, you're not being picky. This is not unlike using screws and bosses to
hold together a remote control, when the screws alone would have been
enough.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:40:02 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:


"PeterD" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:23:32 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



That is about where I have arrived at now Jeff. This week, I will spend a
little more time on it just for my own interest, but if it is not giving
up
its secrets in fairly short order, then the job will get knocked on the
head
once and for all.

Arfa


Try using a (strong) magnet around that 'leather' back and see if you
can detect screws under it. That may work.

OK. I'm in ! Based on the fact that if I couldn't get into it, it was
knackered anyway, I had another go today. Using your idea of a very strong
magnet around the leatherette back panel (which is aluminium underneath) I
could *just* detect a very slight 'pull' at each of the four corners.
Several minutes of quite intense heat on the leatherette, just resulted in
it getting too hot to touch. No signs of any glue melting, so I took my
blunt curve-bladed scalpel, and dug in at the edge, slowly working the blade
under. Turns out that under the leatherette is a layer of some fibrous
cardboardy-type material, which is a good thermal insulator, so no heat gets
through to melt the glue ... Total thickness of material, probably about
1.5mm !

Anyway, once the corners were peeled back, a Philips head screw was revealed
at each corner. Even after these had been removed, the back still resisted
removal. After more work with the scalpel blade in the crack, followed by a
screwdriver tip, it finally came away, after breaking the seal made by the
Space Shuttle tile fixing-grade double sided adhesive tape that had been put
there.

Now call me picky if you like, but I consider this to be taking the **** by
the manufacturer. By using this sort of fixing method, they are clearly
defining this expensive radio, as fundamentally non-repairable.

But here's the real bummer. The original problem was that the unit was dead.
Not just a bit. Totally dead. The coaxial type DC socket felt a little
loose, and I was quite convinced that it would have nicely cracked
(lead-free) joints on it, once I got in there, but no. The joints look fine.
And guess what ? With the PCB out, it now works. Absolutely solid, not the
slightest sign of intermittency. Has run for hours without any sign of a
problem at all. I will go over all the joints in the power supply section
anyway, and maybe replace the little tactile switch that controls the
electronic power switching circuitry.

I think that the leatherette is going to be difficult to glue back down as
neatly as it was originally, because of the cardboard substrate. I think
that I might just poke a tiny hole through it above each screw position, and
tell the owner that if it has to come back, I will be cutting a small cross
in the leatherette above each screw, to allow them to be removed without
repeating the destuctive removal process.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Got there in the end ... :-)

Arfa


Cool, glad that helped. I do hope it keeps working!

"PeterD" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:30:28 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:
... then it will be
returned to its owner unrepaired, along with a bill for the workshop time
spent on it.

Nothing beats billing the customer when the repair person doesn't have
the skills to complete the repair...



So the servicer should work for free? What is your time worth?

Mark Z.