I have been looking at the post-February-2009 TV situation for my
summer cabin, which is about 20 miles outside of Flagstaff AZ. Being
mountainous, and semi-rural, it appears that there will still be a lot
of analog repeater signals, even after the digital switchover date.
Specifically, the TVFool website indicates that there will be 4 or 5
digital signals coming from Flagstaff, an azimuth of 56 degrees from
my location; and maybe a dozen analog repeater signals that I am
receiving now, mostly coming from a place called Mingus Mountain, an
azimuth of 228 degrees from my location.

Not really interested in using an antenna rotator. Did enough Googling
to see that stacking antennas might be my answer, point one at
Flagstaff and the other at Mingus.

Can I just connect the antenna leads together, or do I need something
to combine the signals from the separate antennas?

Any other hints on how to maximize my reception?

Also, the digital converter box I bought does not have analog
passthrough. When I got it, I thought even the repeater stations would
be going digital in February, I didn't know that they would be staying
analog for some unknown amount of time. So, I guess I need to be set
up to handle both signals, analog and digital.

I was thinking to do the following to switch between analog and
digital reception. Connect the antenna lead from the roof to the input
of an A-B switch (3 bucks at Frys Electronics). Connect the A output
of the switch to the RF input on the TV, use normal TV analog tuner
for the analog repeater stations. Connect the B output of the switch
to the RF input of the digital converter, connect the AV outputs of
the converter to the AV inputs of the TV, set the TV to AV In. Is that
going to work?

Thanks in advance for any helpful hints,
Jerry

Combining the coax output of the two antennas into a common splitter,
then one coax to the switch should work OK as long as the signals are
realatively strong. If not, you can always put an amplifier in the
line. Both can be purchased at Radio Shack.

Instead of using a splitter and a switch, you would be better off just
running the individual antenna leads to the digital box and TV. Then
you would only be switching the TV, and not the TV and switch every
time you wanted to change from digital to analog.

Dick - In view of Mingus Mountain


On Tue, 13 May 2008 15:16:56 -0700 (PDT), Jerry
wrote:

I have been looking at the post-February-2009 TV situation for my
summer cabin, which is about 20 miles outside of Flagstaff AZ. Being
mountainous, and semi-rural, it appears that there will still be a lot
of analog repeater signals, even after the digital switchover date.
Specifically, the TVFool website indicates that there will be 4 or 5
digital signals coming from Flagstaff, an azimuth of 56 degrees from
my location; and maybe a dozen analog repeater signals that I am
receiving now, mostly coming from a place called Mingus Mountain, an
azimuth of 228 degrees from my location.

Not really interested in using an antenna rotator. Did enough Googling
to see that stacking antennas might be my answer, point one at
Flagstaff and the other at Mingus.

Can I just connect the antenna leads together, or do I need something
to combine the signals from the separate antennas?

Any other hints on how to maximize my reception?

Also, the digital converter box I bought does not have analog
passthrough. When I got it, I thought even the repeater stations would
be going digital in February, I didn't know that they would be staying
analog for some unknown amount of time. So, I guess I need to be set
up to handle both signals, analog and digital.

I was thinking to do the following to switch between analog and
digital reception. Connect the antenna lead from the roof to the input
of an A-B switch (3 bucks at Frys Electronics). Connect the A output
of the switch to the RF input on the TV, use normal TV analog tuner
for the analog repeater stations. Connect the B output of the switch
to the RF input of the digital converter, connect the AV outputs of
the converter to the AV inputs of the TV, set the TV to AV In. Is that
going to work?

Thanks in advance for any helpful hints,
Jerry

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Although I mentioned that you "could" combine the two antennas into
one lead, the reason you may not want to is something called
"ghosting." The two antennas will be receiving the same stations,
although not from the same direction. Signals can bounce off
mountains, etc. and you will get two signals of the same station
arriving at your TV at two different times, even though they are of
different signal strength. This causes your picture to have a ghost
appearance. For that reason, I would run separate coax leads from the
two antennas and forget the switch.

Dick


On Tue, 13 May 2008 15:16:56 -0700 (PDT), Jerry
wrote:

I was thinking to do the following to switch between analog and
digital reception. Connect the antenna lead from the roof to the input
of an A-B switch (3 bucks at Frys Electronics). Connect the A output
of the switch to the RF input on the TV, use normal TV analog tuner
for the analog repeater stations. Connect the B output of the switch
to the RF input of the digital converter, connect the AV outputs of
the converter to the AV inputs of the TV, set the TV to AV In. Is that
going to work?

Thanks in advance for any helpful hints,
Jerry

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On May 13, 4:32*pm, Dick wrote:
Combining the coax output of the two antennas into a common splitter,
then one coax to the switch should work OK as long as the signals are
realatively strong. *If not, you can always put an amplifier in the
line. *Both can be purchased at Radio Shack.

Instead of using a splitter and a switch, you would be better off just
running the individual antenna leads to the digital box and TV. *Then
you would only be switching the TV, and not the TV and switch every
time you wanted to change from digital to analog.

Dick - In view of Mingus Mountain

We're in the Mund's Park area, already have an amplifier inline, Flag
Channel 2 comes in REAL strong, but even with the amplifier the
repeater stations on Mingus Mountain are usually kinda snowy. Think my
antenna is pointed more or less in the general direction of Mingus
Mt., but now that I got the azimuth off the TVFool website, I'll have
to get back up on the roof and point the antenna a little better. We
were up there for the weekend a few weeks ago, brought the digital
converter along to try it, was able to pick up digital signals for AZ-
TV and Telefutura, hope I can do a little better than that with
another antenna.

Jerry

On May 13, 7:26*pm, Jerry wrote:
On May 13, 4:32*pm, Dick wrote:

Combining the coax output of the two antennas into a common splitter,
then one coax to the switch should work OK as long as the signals are
realatively strong. *If not, you can always put an amplifier in the
line. *Both can be purchased at Radio Shack.

Instead of using a splitter and a switch, you would be better off just
running the individual antenna leads to the digital box and TV. *Then
you would only be switching the TV, and not the TV and switch every
time you wanted to change from digital to analog.

Dick - In view of Mingus Mountain

We're in the Mund's Park area, already have an amplifier inline, Flag
Channel 2 comes in REAL strong, but even with the amplifier the
repeater stations on Mingus Mountain are usually kinda snowy. Think my
antenna is pointed more or less in the general direction of Mingus
Mt., but now that I got the azimuth off the TVFool website, I'll have
to get back up on the roof and point the antenna a little better. We
were up there for the weekend a few weeks ago, brought the digital
converter along to try it, was able to pick up digital signals for AZ-
TV and Telefutura, hope I can do a little better than that with
another antenna.

Jerry

As previously mentioned, combining signals form two antennas onto one
downlead will not work in 95% of the cases as there are time
differences in signal reception due to pickup of reflections. Even if
there are no reflections, pickup of the signal on the back lobe of the
antenna pointed away from the desired direction may add or subtract
from the main signal.

Greetings Jerry..

Interesting situation but not unlike what has been going on for years
in the south SF Bay Area (San Jose). Sutro Tower is towards SF for
about 50 miles while KNTV (Channel 11) is the opposite direction right
in San Jose - behind you. For several years (many years ago now), KNTV
sold a small 2 element antenna that you could mount on your TV mast
and point the opposite direction to your normal TV antenna. It worked
like a champ and got rid of what Dick calls:

Reference:
"Although I mentioned that you "could" combine the two antennas into
one lead, the reason you may not want to is something called
"ghosting." The two antennas will be receiving the same stations,
although not from the same direction."

This is the laymen's term for multipath interference. Two paths
instead of a straight line point A = B. That reflection comes in a
bit slower than the original signal path, thus the delay results in a
"ghosting" affect. This can also be quite noticeable on FM reception.
Indeed, as a radio amateur, we can actually use it to our advantage by
reflecting our signals off natural points!

Although we tended to use 300 ohm twin lead back in those days, you
should be fine with 75 ohm coax. As Dick has mentioned, if you want
the trouble and expense of two pieces of coax to run (really
un-needed) go for it. Personally, I would either get an inexpensive
rotator (programmable now days) with a remote for it and put up a nice
single array OR go with two antennas and run the coax between them. I
should also mention, a large number of apartment complexes across this
country are doing the two antenna (or more) with a single lead in
routine.

Cheers,
Mr. Mentor

Jerry, be careful listing your actual e-mail address on Usenet, there
are folks out here that you REALLY don't want e-mailing you! Just put
in something bogus, it will take it! Notice what mine is...



"Jerry" wrote in message
...
|I have been looking at the post-February-2009 TV situation for my
| summer cabin, which is about 20 miles outside of Flagstaff AZ. Being
| mountainous, and semi-rural, it appears that there will still be a
lot
| of analog repeater signals, even after the digital switchover date.
| Specifically, the TVFool website indicates that there will be 4 or 5
| digital signals coming from Flagstaff, an azimuth of 56 degrees from
| my location; and maybe a dozen analog repeater signals that I am
| receiving now, mostly coming from a place called Mingus Mountain, an
| azimuth of 228 degrees from my location.
|
| Not really interested in using an antenna rotator. Did enough
Googling
| to see that stacking antennas might be my answer, point one at
| Flagstaff and the other at Mingus.
|
| Can I just connect the antenna leads together, or do I need
something
| to combine the signals from the separate antennas?
|
| Any other hints on how to maximize my reception?
|
| Also, the digital converter box I bought does not have analog
| passthrough. When I got it, I thought even the repeater stations
would
| be going digital in February, I didn't know that they would be
staying
| analog for some unknown amount of time. So, I guess I need to be set
| up to handle both signals, analog and digital.
|
| I was thinking to do the following to switch between analog and
| digital reception. Connect the antenna lead from the roof to the
input
| of an A-B switch (3 bucks at Frys Electronics). Connect the A output
| of the switch to the RF input on the TV, use normal TV analog tuner
| for the analog repeater stations. Connect the B output of the switch
| to the RF input of the digital converter, connect the AV outputs of
| the converter to the AV inputs of the TV, set the TV to AV In. Is
that
| going to work?
|
| Thanks in advance for any helpful hints,
| Jerry

In article ,
dBc wrote:

Greetings Jerry..

Interesting situation but not unlike what has been going on for years
in the south SF Bay Area (San Jose). Sutro Tower is towards SF for
about 50 miles while KNTV (Channel 11) is the opposite direction right
in San Jose - behind you. For several years (many years ago now), KNTV
sold a small 2 element antenna that you could mount on your TV mast
and point the opposite direction to your normal TV antenna.

My understanding is that KNTV 11 moved their transmitter site a couple
of years ago.

The old site on Mt. Loma Prieta was shut down in 2006. The new
transmitter site is on San Bruno Mountain, quite some distance to the
north: coordinates 37 deg, 41 min, 07 sec, West Longitude: 122 deg, 26
min, 01 sec.

Back when the NBC affiliation was moved to Channel 11, I had to add a
second antenna in order to pick it up properly (our primary antenna i
a standard log-periodic/reflector aimed north towards Sutro). I made
a single-channel Yagi for Channel 11, aimed it southwards, and merged
the signal to the main coax using a "Join-tenna" single-channel
combiner. Worked like a charm.

Doesn't work worth beans nowadays, since the Yagi towards Loma Prieta
rather than towards Mt. Bruno, and the Join-tenna is blocking the
Channel 11 signal coming in from the log-periodic. All we get on 11
is ghosts and snow. I need to go up on the roof, and either re-aim
the Yagi, or just jumper out the combiner and use the
northwards-pointing log-periodic for all channels - the beamwidth is
probably plenty sufficient.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Greetings Dave..

I did mention many years ago now.. To qualify that, how about back in
the 60's & 70's. I see that stations and licenses have moved all
around the place. Back in those days KNTV wasn't affiliated with
anyone since they were an independent station. Consider,
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNTV). Heck, I remember when KLIV 1590
(as I recall) in San Jose was playing top 40 rock and roll music - NOT
exclusively news at all. In fact, I was one of those 15th callers
after hearing a certain song that won me a Coke jacket as I remember.
Too many years ago now but I AM curious how many San Jose folks would
ever remember KLIV playing top 40 - probably not many these days..

Those small two-element antennas mounted under the larger TV log are
still on MANY roofs in San Jose. Granted, probably not in the best of
shape but they're there! The twin lead would come from the larger log
down to the two-element Yagi, connect to it before going to the TV
inside the house. After all the complaints of bad video, KNTV did
something about it by offering these antennas - it DID work well!
Further, it was a inexpensive solution. They sold them like hotcakes
back in those days..

Regarding:
"I need to go up on the roof, and either re-aim the Yagi, or just
jumper out the combiner and use the northwards-pointing log-periodic
for all channels - the beamwidth is probably plenty sufficient."

You should try (at least initially) to re-aim it and see if that
resolves the issue. My bet, it will then work like a charm!! The
beam-width on a two-element array is broad as a barn! In fact, if you
were to only move it an inch or so right now, it would probably clear
up considerably. You're probably picking up multipath off of Loma.
Move away from that reflection point, and things will clear up
substantially if not totally. My bet will be totally clear video.

Ah, the things we do to avoid purchasing an inexpensive TV antenna
rotator..

Cheers,
Mr. Mentor




"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
| In article ,
| dBc wrote:
|
| Greetings Jerry..
|
| Interesting situation but not unlike what has been going on for
years
| in the south SF Bay Area (San Jose). Sutro Tower is towards SF for
| about 50 miles while KNTV (Channel 11) is the opposite direction
right
| in San Jose - behind you. For several years (many years ago now),
KNTV
| sold a small 2 element antenna that you could mount on your TV mast
| and point the opposite direction to your normal TV antenna.
|
| My understanding is that KNTV 11 moved their transmitter site a
couple
| of years ago.
|
| The old site on Mt. Loma Prieta was shut down in 2006. The new
| transmitter site is on San Bruno Mountain, quite some distance to
the
| north: coordinates 37 deg, 41 min, 07 sec, West Longitude: 122 deg,
26
| min, 01 sec.
|
| Back when the NBC affiliation was moved to Channel 11, I had to add
a
| second antenna in order to pick it up properly (our primary antenna
i
| a standard log-periodic/reflector aimed north towards Sutro). I
made
| a single-channel Yagi for Channel 11, aimed it southwards, and
merged
| the signal to the main coax using a "Join-tenna" single-channel
| combiner. Worked like a charm.
|
| Doesn't work worth beans nowadays, since the Yagi towards Loma
Prieta
| rather than towards Mt. Bruno, and the Join-tenna is blocking the
| Channel 11 signal coming in from the log-periodic. All we get on 11
| is ghosts and snow. I need to go up on the roof, and either re-aim
| the Yagi, or just jumper out the combiner and use the
| northwards-pointing log-periodic for all channels - the beamwidth is
| probably plenty sufficient.
|
| --
| Dave Platt
AE6EO
| Friends of Jade Warrior home page:
http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
| I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
| boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Dave..

I should have mentioned that other than KSFO (560 kHz) in S.F. the
local south bay news station back in the earlier days was..

Do you remember what it was?

KXRX was the south bay news radio station. Yes, I realize that it's
not even in the state of Calif. these days. Nor does it have any
history on its Web site. To be able to rack up some free flight time,
my father flew the Peeper-in-the-Piper back in those days with the
late Bob Hallman of KNTV Channel 11 weather giving traffic reports as
my father flew. Later, Bob got his own license and started flying and
reporting on his own. After referencing KNTV history on Wikipedia, I'm
amazed to see no mention of Bob on KNTV alumni. I wonder if those
records are just lost or the company just doesn't keep historical
personnel files. With the transition of owners, I'll bet many a record
is either discarded or lost.

This was about the time my father was flying - perhaps a year or so
befo
http://www.historysanjose.org/exhibi...xhibit=3&ps=48

Notice ALL the open space at then San Jose Airport - this was _before_
it became San Jose Municipal Airport.

Cheers,
Mr. Mentor



"dBc" wrote in message
...
| Greetings Dave..
|
| I did mention many years ago now.. To qualify that, how about back
in
| the 60's & 70's. I see that stations and licenses have moved all
| around the place. Back in those days KNTV wasn't affiliated with
| anyone since they were an independent station. Consider,
| (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNTV). Heck, I remember when KLIV 1590
| (as I recall) in San Jose was playing top 40 rock and roll music -
NOT
| exclusively news at all. In fact, I was one of those 15th callers
| after hearing a certain song that won me a Coke jacket as I
remember.
| Too many years ago now but I AM curious how many San Jose folks
would
| ever remember KLIV playing top 40 - probably not many these days..
|
| Those small two-element antennas mounted under the larger TV log are
| still on MANY roofs in San Jose. Granted, probably not in the best
of
| shape but they're there! The twin lead would come from the larger
log
| down to the two-element Yagi, connect to it before going to the TV
| inside the house. After all the complaints of bad video, KNTV did
| something about it by offering these antennas - it DID work well!
| Further, it was a inexpensive solution. They sold them like hotcakes
| back in those days..
|
| Regarding:
| "I need to go up on the roof, and either re-aim the Yagi, or just
| jumper out the combiner and use the northwards-pointing log-periodic
| for all channels - the beamwidth is probably plenty sufficient."
|
| You should try (at least initially) to re-aim it and see if that
| resolves the issue. My bet, it will then work like a charm!! The
| beam-width on a two-element array is broad as a barn! In fact, if
you
| were to only move it an inch or so right now, it would probably
clear
| up considerably. You're probably picking up multipath off of Loma.
| Move away from that reflection point, and things will clear up
| substantially if not totally. My bet will be totally clear video.
|
| Ah, the things we do to avoid purchasing an inexpensive TV antenna
| rotator..
|
| Cheers,
| Mr. Mentor
|
|
|
|
| "Dave Platt" wrote in message
| ...
|| In article ,
|| dBc wrote:
||
|| Greetings Jerry..
||
|| Interesting situation but not unlike what has been going on for
| years
|| in the south SF Bay Area (San Jose). Sutro Tower is towards SF for
|| about 50 miles while KNTV (Channel 11) is the opposite direction
| right
|| in San Jose - behind you. For several years (many years ago now),
| KNTV
|| sold a small 2 element antenna that you could mount on your TV
mast
|| and point the opposite direction to your normal TV antenna.
||
|| My understanding is that KNTV 11 moved their transmitter site a
| couple
|| of years ago.
||
|| The old site on Mt. Loma Prieta was shut down in 2006. The new
|| transmitter site is on San Bruno Mountain, quite some distance to
| the
|| north: coordinates 37 deg, 41 min, 07 sec, West Longitude: 122 deg,
| 26
|| min, 01 sec.
||
|| Back when the NBC affiliation was moved to Channel 11, I had to add
| a
|| second antenna in order to pick it up properly (our primary antenna
| i
|| a standard log-periodic/reflector aimed north towards Sutro). I
| made
|| a single-channel Yagi for Channel 11, aimed it southwards, and
| merged
|| the signal to the main coax using a "Join-tenna" single-channel
|| combiner. Worked like a charm.
||
|| Doesn't work worth beans nowadays, since the Yagi towards Loma
| Prieta
|| rather than towards Mt. Bruno, and the Join-tenna is blocking the
|| Channel 11 signal coming in from the log-periodic. All we get on
11
|| is ghosts and snow. I need to go up on the roof, and either re-aim
|| the Yagi, or just jumper out the combiner and use the
|| northwards-pointing log-periodic for all channels - the beamwidth
is
|| probably plenty sufficient.
||
|| --
|| Dave Platt
| AE6EO
|| Friends of Jade Warrior home page:
| http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
|| I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I
will
|| boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
|
|

In article ,
dBc wrote:

Regarding:
"I need to go up on the roof, and either re-aim the Yagi, or just
jumper out the combiner and use the northwards-pointing log-periodic
for all channels - the beamwidth is probably plenty sufficient."

You should try (at least initially) to re-aim it and see if that
resolves the issue. My bet, it will then work like a charm!!

That's certainly the easiest thing to do.

The
beam-width on a two-element array is broad as a barn!

The Yagi I built is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 elements...
I decided I wanted some real gain and multipath immunity. I scaled
down one of the multi-element beam designs from the ARRL handbook by
around 10:1.

I was rather amazed when I tried it out. Even down at ground level,
with nearby buildings and trees in the way, I got a very clear picture
on 11 just by pointing it towards Loma. Up on the roof it works like
gangbusters.

In fact, if you
were to only move it an inch or so right now, it would probably clear
up considerably. You're probably picking up multipath off of Loma.
Move away from that reflection point, and things will clear up
substantially if not totally.

It has pretty good front-to-back rejection with deep side lobes, so
yeah, I'm just getting a confused mass of multipath backscatter from
Loma Prieta, nearby buildings, trees, and so forth.

Swinging it around towards SFO should certaily do the trick.

Ah, the things we do to avoid purchasing an inexpensive TV antenna
rotator..

Oh, I've got one, and we used to use it quite a lot... but they don't
play well in a household with two independent TiVo DVRs! We really
needed to have "all the signal, all of the time".

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!