I apoligize for the OT post, but I guess that many people at
sci.electronics.repair work not only on electronic things but
mechanical things as well. The connection to sci.environment should be
evident.

The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.

Beloved Leader wrote:
I apoligize for the OT post, but I guess that many people at
sci.electronics.repair work not only on electronic things but
mechanical things as well. The connection to sci.environment should be
evident.

The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.

I had a similar problem, and here's how I got around it.

First let me explain why I didnt feel bad about this.

I had TWO cars of the same year, same model. One measured at 2% of
allowable emissions (that's the one I took good care of since it was a
pup).

The second car I bought used, and had been a bit misused, and had
carbon deposits on the valves-- it ran at 114% of allowable limits.

The dang testing folks didnt see my logic-- on an average, my cars were
running at 60% of limits. They also would not give me a waiver, as
they only gave waivers if the repair costs exceeded $300 IF the problem
had to do with "rings". Silly rules. Even mentioning that I drove
the car 8 miles a day, 1600 miles a year, as a commuter, thereby
putting out less than 15% of typical emissions, didnt faze them.


One way would be to run the gas tank almost dry, then put in a gallon
or so of 100% isopropyl alcohol (gas line "heet", or dryer). Then many
cars will pass emissions tests.

The way I actually did it was have my mechanic adjust the timing until
it passed emissions (but got poor gas milage), ran it thru the testing
agency, then turned the timing back to the economy setting.

Not exactly legal, but can help you around the beuracratic hassles.

Beloved Leader wrote:
I apoligize for the OT post, but I guess that many people at
sci.electronics.repair work not only on electronic things but
mechanical things as well. The connection to sci.environment should be
evident.

The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.

Hi...

I read a couple of automotive groups that may be of interest
to you - but I'm not sure how much respect you'd garner on the
subject interesting you... just a heads-up.

Try rec.autos.makers.chrysler and/or alt.autos.gm

Take care.

Ken

"Beloved Leader" wrote in
ups.com:

I apoligize for the OT post, but I guess that many people at
sci.electronics.repair work not only on electronic things but
mechanical things as well. The connection to sci.environment should be
evident.

The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.


Check the specific newsgroup for your brand of car.
(which you didn't mention)
alt.autos.xxxxx

Alt.autos.honda is great for Honda/Acura. I hear the Toyota NG is good,too.
You would be surprised at the knowledge you can find on those newsgroups.
Quirky problems turn out to be common,and someone likely has a fix for it.

If your car is 1994 or later,the electronics stores codes relating to your
engine problems,Autozone will read the codes for you at no charge,I've
heard.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

In article . com,
says...

I apoligize for the OT post, but I guess that many people at
sci.electronics.repair work not only on electronic things but
mechanical things as well. The connection to sci.environment should be
evident.

The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.

When in doubt, read the manual. If the car is newer than 1996, get the On
Board Diagnostics tests done. Fix the sensors, etc. Rather simple, really.
But not the thing a back yard mechanic (like me) can do for cheap....

--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Eric Swanson wrote:
When in doubt, read the manual.

Check.

If the car is newer than 1996, get the On
Board Diagnostics tests done.

1989, no OBD or OBD II.

Fix the sensors, etc. Rather simple, really.

My code scanner finds no problems with sensors, but the GM CCC system
in use is less robust than OBD II. For example, there's no code set for
vacuum leaks. I find them with a vacuum gauge and by examination of the
hoses.

But not the thing a back yard mechanic (like me) can do for cheap....

Why not? Find what's wrong; fix it. Same as always. Parts just have
different shapes - and higher prices - now.

rec.autos.tech seems to be the group for me. Now I have to write up the
lengthy description of the problems.

Thanks. Thanks to all.

Jim Yanik wrote:
Check the specific newsgroup for your brand of car.
(which you didn't mention)
alt.autos.xxxxx

Oldsmobile. There's a group, but it's not too active. The same engine,
a "Y" code 307 V8, was used in some Cadillacs too.

If your car is 1994 or later,the electronics stores codes relating to your
engine problems,Autozone will read the codes for you at no charge,I've
heard.

There's an Autozone near me. I have seen them go out to the parking lot
to do just that for a customer. My car, an '89, has the CCC system, not
OBD II.

Thanks.

In article . com,
Beloved Leader wrote:
The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.

Do a search on your model of car. There will almost certainly be a
newsgroup devoted to at least the make. There are also Yahoo type mail
lists devoted to particular models, and yours may be one if it has a
sufficient enthusiast following.

--
*Life is hard; then you nap

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Beloved Leader" wrote in message
ups.com...

The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Carburetor or fuel injection? My old car had a carburetor and a mechanic
showed me how to pull one tube off it so it would pass every time (bled air
into the mixture). I'd just pull the tube, run it through, get a pass, stick
the tube back on and be good for another year.

IMO most all of the older cars going through are rigged to pass. My newer
car has fuel injection so no problem now.

Homer J Simpson wrote:
Carburetor or fuel injection?

Carburetor. The "Y" code 307 V8 was just about the last of the
carbureted engines in automobiles. It may have been the cleanest
carbureted gasoline automotive engine of all time too. GM got one more
year out of it, using it in 1990-model cars too. In the 1991-model
cars, GM replaced it with the injected Chevy-based 305.

I'm squeamish about the idea of pulling things off to get through the
test. I know, you do what you have to do, but that sounds as if it
would introduce a vacuum leak.

"Beloved Leader" wrote in message
oups.com...

Homer J Simpson wrote:
Carburetor or fuel injection?

Carburetor. The "Y" code 307 V8 was just about the last of the
carbureted engines in automobiles. It may have been the cleanest
carbureted gasoline automotive engine of all time too. GM got one more
year out of it, using it in 1990-model cars too. In the 1991-model
cars, GM replaced it with the injected Chevy-based 305.

I'm squeamish about the idea of pulling things off to get through the
test. I know, you do what you have to do, but that sounds as if it
would introduce a vacuum leak.

You do what you have to do. Ask a friendly mechanic.

Ancient_Hacker wrote:
Beloved Leader wrote:
I apoligize for the OT post, but I guess that many people at
sci.electronics.repair work not only on electronic things but
mechanical things as well. The connection to sci.environment should be
evident.

The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.

I had a similar problem, and here's how I got around it.

First let me explain why I didnt feel bad about this.

I had TWO cars of the same year, same model. One measured at 2% of
allowable emissions (that's the one I took good care of since it was a
pup).

The second car I bought used, and had been a bit misused, and had
carbon deposits on the valves-- it ran at 114% of allowable limits.

The dang testing folks didnt see my logic-- on an average, my cars were
running at 60% of limits. They also would not give me a waiver, as
they only gave waivers if the repair costs exceeded $300 IF the problem
had to do with "rings". Silly rules. Even mentioning that I drove
the car 8 miles a day, 1600 miles a year, as a commuter, thereby
putting out less than 15% of typical emissions, didnt faze them.


One way would be to run the gas tank almost dry, then put in a gallon
or so of 100% isopropyl alcohol (gas line "heet", or dryer). Then many
cars will pass emissions tests.

The way I actually did it was have my mechanic adjust the timing until
it passed emissions (but got poor gas milage), ran it thru the testing
agency, then turned the timing back to the economy setting.

Not exactly legal, but can help you around the beuracratic hassles.

Hi,

Which part of the emissions test are you failing, CO, CO2, NOx, or
Hydrocarbons?


-Landon

lj_robins wrote:
Hi,

Which part of the emissions test are you failing, CO, CO2, NOx, or
Hydrocarbons?


-Landon

Hydrocarbons. The last test, yesterday, I missed by 4 ppm at 15mph. The
limit is 55 ppm, and I came in at 59 ppm. Everything else passed. CO %
and NO ppm are great.

I've been writing a text file that I will post at rec.autos.tech or an
Oldsmobile group. So far, I'm only up to the end of August. I have
taken the test five times. I started on August 16.

Beloved Leader wrote:
lj_robins wrote:
Hi,

Which part of the emissions test are you failing, CO, CO2, NOx, or
Hydrocarbons?


-Landon

Hydrocarbons. The last test, yesterday, I missed by 4 ppm at 15mph. The
limit is 55 ppm, and I came in at 59 ppm. Everything else passed. CO %
and NO ppm are great.

I've been writing a text file that I will post at rec.autos.tech or an
Oldsmobile group. So far, I'm only up to the end of August. I have
taken the test five times. I started on August 16.

Hi,

Hydrocarbons is the tough (and sometimes expensive) failure to get rid
of. I don't remember what you have... if you have a carb with adjustable
fuel mixture screws you could try leaning the fuel mixture a little bit.
Also try to tighten ALL the screws on the carb where ever they might be
so that vacuum isn't pulling gas from where it isn't supposed to into
the engine.

Check your fuel pressure at the inlet of the carb, if it is more than
6psi it could be pushing gas through cracks into the engine. If you
have fuel injection check the pressure too, too much will push gas past
seals.

If you have fuel injection you might have an injector that is leaking
into the intake manifold. It could be valve seals leaking oil into the
combustion chamber, a stuck ring on one of the pistons, or a small head
gasket leak. Really, its hard to say what is doing it.


Good luck though,

-Landon

Beloved Leader wrote:

lj_robins wrote:

Which part of the emissions test are you failing, CO, CO2, NOx, or
Hydrocarbons?

Hydrocarbons. The last test, yesterday, I missed by 4 ppm at 15mph. The
limit is 55 ppm, and I came in at 59 ppm. Everything else passed. CO %
and NO ppm are great.

Any GM web site or news group should do since the fuel/emissions
systems are the same for all of them. Chevroletforums.com is one. Try
to find a GM factory manual or Mitchell manual since they're much
better than Haynes and Chilton's, especially for fuel/emission
diagnosis. High HC with low CO and NOx points to an ignition problem,
but post all the test results since you may actually have high CO or
NOx even if they're far below legal limits. High CO is a fuel or valve
problem, but high NOx can be from a vacuum leak or very lean mixture,
which can also make HC high. Your state should have an emissions lab
that can answer technical questions or even test the vehicle more
extensively than the typical garage or emissions station can. The lab
here once pinpointed a high HC problem to worn distributor bearings,
something few garages would have caught.

Here's a table I found somewhere. It's more legible with a
nonproportional font, like Courier:


Typical State Automobile Emissions Idle Test Limits
and Performance of Vehicles in Good Working Order


Model Year Typical State Limits Normal Vehicle Emissions

CO HC CO HC
------------------------------------------------------------------

pre-1968 7.5-12.5% 750-2000 PPM 2.0-3.0% 250-500 PPM
1969-70 7.0-11.0 650-1250 1.5-2.5 200-300
1971-74 5.0-9.0 425-1200 1.0-1.5 100-200
1975-79 3.0-6.5 300-650 0.5-1.0 50-100
1980 1.5-3.5 275-600 0.3-1.0 50-100
1981-93 1.0-2.5 200-300 0.0-0.5 10-50
1994+ 1.0-1.5 50-100 0.0-0.2 2-20

Homer J Simpson wrote:

You do what you have to do. Ask a friendly mechanic.

But not just any since most are bad at emissions diagnosis.

In article .com,
Beloved Leader wrote:
Hydrocarbons. The last test, yesterday, I missed by 4 ppm at 15mph. The
limit is 55 ppm, and I came in at 59 ppm. Everything else passed. CO %
and NO ppm are great.

When you say great - are they better than maker's spec? High HC low CO
suggest a weak mixture, so possibly an air leak in the induction system
or engine breathers?

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article .com,
says...


Homer J Simpson wrote:
Carburetor or fuel injection?

Carburetor. The "Y" code 307 V8 was just about the last of the
carbureted engines in automobiles. It may have been the cleanest
carbureted gasoline automotive engine of all time too. GM got one more
year out of it, using it in 1990-model cars too. In the 1991-model
cars, GM replaced it with the injected Chevy-based 305.

I'm squeamish about the idea of pulling things off to get through the
test. I know, you do what you have to do, but that sounds as if it
would introduce a vacuum leak.

Your approach to fixing the problems reminds me of similar problems I had a
while back. Older carbs with plastic floats tend to have problems as they age
due to the float slowly soaking up gasoline and becoming too heavy, thus
setting the float height will lead to too much gas in the float bowl. I fought
with a Carter carb on a '79 GM for years, due to the power valve needle jet
mechanism corroding and thus sticking open. Those GM inlet air heaters can
fail, thus preventing the carb temperature from reaching the proper level, a
symptom being that it's extra hard to start in colder weather. Platinum plugs
are great, as well as new plug wires. When you go in for inspection, be sure
the car is completely warmed to normal operating temperature and don't leave it
parked before the test, which will cool it down. On another vehicle, I finally
bit the bullet and replaced the catalytic converter, which then passed.

--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Beloved Leader wrote:
lj_robins wrote:
Hi,

Which part of the emissions test are you failing, CO, CO2, NOx, or
Hydrocarbons?


-Landon

Hydrocarbons. The last test, yesterday, I missed by 4 ppm at 15mph. The
limit is 55 ppm, and I came in at 59 ppm. Everything else passed. CO %
and NO ppm are great.

You might have carbon buildup on the intake valves. No simple way to
fix that. On expensive BMW's they sandblast the stuff off ( not with
sand, with walnut shells ). But for some unfathomable reason they want
$600 for that treatment.

Since you're not too far off, have you tried an "Italian Tuneup"? Find
a reason to take the highway, driving as fast as reasonable for 20 to
40 miles. That might do the trick.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

When you say great - are they better than maker's spec? High HC low CO
suggest a weak mixture, so possibly an air leak in the induction system
or engine breathers?

===============

wrote:

Try
to find a GM factory manual or Mitchell manual since they're much
better than Haynes and Chilton's, especially for fuel/emission
diagnosis. High HC with low CO and NOx points to an ignition problem,
but post all the test results since you may actually have high CO or
NOx even if they're far below legal limits.

Here are the results of my latest test:

October 4, 11:17 a.m.
Idle 538-540 rpm according to the test machine's display. (Should be
550)
HC, ppm: 15 mph: limit 55; actual 59 (fail)
HC, ppm, 25 mph: limit 100; actual 79 (pass)

CO, %, 15 mph: limit 0.22; actual 0.01 (pass)
CO, %, 25 mph: limit 0.32; actual 0.04 (pass)

NO, ppm, 15 mph; limit 720; actual 136 (pass)
NO, ppm, 25 mph; limit 700; actual 188 (pass)
Overall test results: fail.

The only manual I have for the car is a Haynes manual, the one for
full-size GMs. There is a Haynes emissions manual, I think, but I don't
have it. I am within two miles of a Cadillac dealer and within four
miles of a community college with an automotive program. The community
college has a library of factory manuals and loads of CDs too. I'll be
able to pick a lot of brains if need be, but I want to do as much of my
own homework as I can first. Virginia's DEQ office is a local call.

I did turn down the idle from its initial ~800 rpm to the specified
550. At this rpm, the engine sometimes stalls. I'll probably have to
turn it back up after I've passed the test.

An old message at rec.autos.tech says to look at the air injection
system. I'll have to find it again, print it out, and think about it.

As for the catalytic converter, the Cadillac tech said that if that
were bad, all the readings would be haywire. It's a three-way
converter, so it wouldn't be cheap. At least it would be an easy fix,
as it is readily accessible.

Thanks to everyone for writing.

Ancient_Hacker wrote:
You might have carbon buildup on the intake valves. No simple way to
fix that.

take the highway, driving as fast as reasonable for 20 to
40 miles. That might do the trick.

GM sells this stuff called "Top Engine Cleaner." I've used it before, a
few years back, on this car. In August, the Cadillac techs felt it
would be a waste of money, but after I flunked the test again on the
4th, one of them suggested pouring in a can. I bought a can and poured
it in, following the instructions on the can religiously. Huge clouds
of smoke came out with the Top Engine Cleaner in the combustion
chambers, presumablyfrom the carbon being burned off.

The tech also said to take it out and "drive it hard." I've had some
some other non-automotive chores that had to be done, so I've haven't
got around to the brisk drive yet. I will do that.

In article . com,
Beloved Leader wrote:
Here are the results of my latest test:

October 4, 11:17 a.m.
Idle 538-540 rpm according to the test machine's display. (Should be
550)
HC, ppm: 15 mph: limit 55; actual 59 (fail)
HC, ppm, 25 mph: limit 100; actual 79 (pass)

CO, %, 15 mph: limit 0.22; actual 0.01 (pass)
CO, %, 25 mph: limit 0.32; actual 0.04 (pass
NO, ppm, 15 mph; limit 720; actual 136 (pass)
NO, ppm, 25 mph; limit 700; actual 188 (pass)
Overall test results: fail.

Confirms my earlier diagnosis. It's running weak. Check first for air
leaks anywhere in intake system and engine breathers. Only then check carb.

--
*I am a nobody, and nobody is perfect; therefore I am perfect*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Beloved Leader wrote:

GM sells this stuff called "Top Engine Cleaner."

My auto service guy says the stuff does little or nothing.

If the stuff really removed carbon, it would be used as oven cleaner,
less dangerous than lye.

Hmmm, too bad lye is hard on aluminum, maybe a can of "easy off"
would remove the Carbon?

"Beloved Leader" wrote in message
ups.com...

October 4, 11:17 a.m.
Idle 538-540 rpm according to the test machine's display. (Should be
550)
HC, ppm: 15 mph: limit 55; actual 59 (fail)
HC, ppm, 25 mph: limit 100; actual 79 (pass)

Did you change the oil before the test? That can make a lot of difference
I'm told.

Ancient_Hacker wrote:
Beloved Leader wrote:

I apoligize for the OT post, but I guess that many people at
sci.electronics.repair work not only on electronic things but
mechanical things as well. The connection to sci.environment should be
evident.

The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive
emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them,
nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls.
Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the
emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the
point.

Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.



What specific car are we dealing with? There's many newsgroups that
cater to just about every brand of car there is, and most have many
helpful folks on them.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Confirms my earlier diagnosis. It's running weak. Check first for air
leaks anywhere in intake system and engine breathers. Only then check carb.

Do you mean "lean?" That would be the terminology used in the States.
How do you account for the high intake manifold vacuum and the steady
needle on the vacuum gauge?

I posed the novella about my car at the Usenet group rec.autos.tech.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...efb17c8d47e636

or
http://tinyurl.com/lvb9n

Thanks again to everyone.

Ancient_Hacker wrote:
Beloved Leader wrote:

GM sells this stuff called "Top Engine Cleaner."

My auto service guy says the stuff does little or nothing.

I, too, am leary of the "engine rebuild in a can" chemicals, but the
old timers all swear by the stuff. It's mostly naptha.

In article . com,
Beloved Leader wrote:
Confirms my earlier diagnosis. It's running weak. Check first for air
leaks anywhere in intake system and engine breathers. Only then check
carb.

Do you mean "lean?" That would be the terminology used in the States.

Yes. Lower than normal CO and high HC is a classic symptom.

How do you account for the high intake manifold vacuum and the steady
needle on the vacuum gauge?

Do you know what the vacuum reading should be? However, if you're sure
there are no leaks, sound like the carb is faulty. Presumably being a late
type it has electronically controlled mixture and idle speed?

--
*If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Do you know what the vacuum reading should be?

21" with the needle steady, not wobbling, is considered good. It had
been so long since I had last used one that I had to get on the
Internet to look up how to go about using one.

How to Use and Interpret a Vacuum Gauge
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

sound like the carb is faulty. Presumably being a late
type it has electronically controlled mixture and idle speed?

No. The Oldsmobile 5L/307 cid V8 is the last of the carbureted engines.
The carburetor (US spelling) has a throttle position sensor, but
everything about the carburetor's operation is mechanical, not
electronic, unless there's something I'm overlooking.

Thanks.

"Beloved Leader" wrote in
oups.com:


Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Do you know what the vacuum reading should be?

21" with the needle steady, not wobbling, is considered good. It had
been so long since I had last used one that I had to get on the
Internet to look up how to go about using one.

How to Use and Interpret a Vacuum Gauge
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

sound like the carb is faulty. Presumably being a late
type it has electronically controlled mixture and idle speed?

No. The Oldsmobile 5L/307 cid V8 is the last of the carbureted engines.
The carburetor (US spelling) has a throttle position sensor, but
everything about the carburetor's operation is mechanical, not
electronic, unless there's something I'm overlooking.

Thanks.



The only use for a throttle position sensor(TPS) is to electronically
control the engine. If only the ignition timing,which will affect
emissions.

Are you sure it's a carburetor and not just a throttle body with single
port injection? Is the TPS wired up? Maybe somebody put the wrong carb on.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Beloved Leader wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Here are the results of my latest test:

Idle 538-540 rpm according to the test machine's display. (Should be 550)
HC, ppm: 15 mph: limit 55; actual 59 (fail)
HC, ppm, 25 mph: limit 100; actual 79 (pass)

CO, %, 15 mph: limit 0.22; actual 0.01 (pass)
CO, %, 25 mph: limit 0.32; actual 0.04 (pass)

NO, ppm, 15 mph; limit 720; actual 136 (pass)
NO, ppm, 25 mph; limit 700; actual 188 (pass)

Can you also post the CO2 and O2 readings? I won't know what they
mean, but someone will.

The only manual I have for the car is a Haynes manual, the one for
full-size GMs. There is a Haynes emissions manual, I think, but I don't
have it. I am within two miles of a Cadillac dealer and within four
miles of a community college with an automotive program. The community
college has a library of factory manuals and loads of CDs too. I'll be
able to pick a lot of brains if need be, but I want to do as much of my
own homework as I can first. Virginia's DEQ office is a local call.

I once glanced at the Haynes emissions manual and found it to be little
mroe than a rehash of the emissions chapters from other Haynes books.
It lacked the hundreds of pages of diagnostic tables found in the
Mitchell and factory manuals. That community college may not only let
you see the books but even fix your car at low cost, but don't be
surprised if they want to keep it for a few days.

Are you using only GM ignition parts -- AC plugs, wires, rotor, and
distributor cap? Some plugs don't substitute well, even when they're
supposed to, and trick wires (magnetic supression, as opposed to
resistive supression) can cause problems. I wouldn't even try AC
Rapidfires, simply because they're not factory original equipment.
Some brands of rotors and caps are made of bad plastic that cracks from
high voltage. I realize you changed all the vacuum hoses, but did you
check for vacuum leaks at the intake manifold gaskets and base of the
carburetor by spraying there with choke cleaner?

I did turn down the idle from its initial ~800 rpm to the specified
550. At this rpm, the engine sometimes stalls. I'll probably have to
turn it back up after I've passed the test.

Try injecting propane or choke cleaner into the air intake (leave air
filter and cover in place -- prevents fires in case of spit back) for a
few seconds. If the idle (set to about 550 RPM) smooths out (injecting
chemicals will make it speed up by as much as 200 RPM), suspect a
vacuum leak or a carburetor problem. The idle mixture solenoid has
been troublesome in some feedback carbs. I don't know if there's any
kind of idle speed regulation (throttle air bypass valve, throttle
kicker or motor), but a carburetor problem may be completely unrelated
to your high HC.

By the way, run the air conditioner compressor for at least 10 minutes
in a row each week, even during the winter, to keep the shaft seal from
drying out. You have a Freon R-12 system and don't want any of that
gas to leak out, and you don't want to convert to R-134a the wrong way
(cheap, quick conversions don't perform well and have high failure
rates).

I don't see the purpose of top engine cleaner here, and I'm surprised a
dealer mechanic would recommend it, at least not without first reading
out the CCC data stream during engine operation to find any
abnormalities (temperatures, barometric and manifold pressures, oxygen
sensor voltage, throttle position, fuel mixture solenoid duty cycle,
etc.).

In article .com,
Beloved Leader wrote:
sound like the carb is faulty. Presumably being a late
type it has electronically controlled mixture and idle speed?

No. The Oldsmobile 5L/307 cid V8 is the last of the carbureted engines.
The carburetor (US spelling) has a throttle position sensor, but
everything about the carburetor's operation is mechanical, not
electronic, unless there's something I'm overlooking.

Then presumably has an adjustment for the idle mixture?

--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Jim Yanik wrote:
Are you sure it's a carburetor and not just a throttle body with single
port injection?

Totally, absolutely, positively, one hundred thousand, million,
billion, trillion percent. The carbureted 307 was last used in the
1990-model cars. In 1991, GM replaced it with the FI 305.

Is the TPS wired up?

Yes.

Maybe somebody put the wrong carb on.

Not a chance. The car has been in the family since new. It has the
factory carburetor.

wrote:
Can you also post the CO2 and O2 readings?

No. The test equipment in use by the Commonwealth of Virginia does not
test for CO2 or O2. I've provided all that I've got.

I once glanced at the Haynes emissions manual and found it to be little
mroe than a rehash of the emissions chapters from other Haynes books.

I'm not surprised by that.

It lacked the hundreds of pages of diagnostic tables found in the
Mitchell and factory manuals. That community college may not only let
you see the books but even fix your car at low cost, but don't be
surprised if they want to keep it for a few days.

Oh, yes, I do get to look at the library. I'd also like to talk to some
of the instructors there. I still want to do the repairs myself, being
of the "if you want the job done right, you've got to do it yourself"
mentality. I also feel that I'd be a more meticulous mechanic than the
18- and 19-year olds taking the courses at the local CC.

Are you using only GM ignition parts -- AC plugs, wires, rotor, and
distributor cap?

No.


Try injecting propane or choke cleaner into the air intake (leave air
filter and cover in place -- prevents fires in case of spit back) for a
few seconds. If the idle (set to about 550 RPM) smooths out (injecting
chemicals will make it speed up by as much as 200 RPM), suspect a
vacuum leak or a carburetor problem.

I can try that, using an unlit propane torch. Bear in mind that the
idle's not rough, just low. Nonetheless, I find it hard to argue with
such a sterling reading on my vacuum gauge. For the record, I'm getting
my vacuum reading from a port that leads to the vacuum chamber for the
car's vacuum-actuated cruise control.

By the way, run the air conditioner compressor for at least 10 minutes
in a row each week, even during the winter, to keep the shaft seal from
drying out. You have a Freon R-12 system

Ice cold, baby. The real deal. The good stuff.

I don't see the purpose of top engine cleaner here, and I'm surprised a
dealer mechanic would recommend it, at least not without first reading
out the CCC data stream during engine operation to find any
abnormalities (temperatures, barometric and manifold pressures, oxygen
sensor voltage, throttle position, fuel mixture solenoid duty cycle,
etc.).

The oldtimers like the stuff. Remember that the CCC system is ancient,
being of the same vintage as 8088-based computers. It is way obsolete
compared to OBD II. There is no such thing as a CCC data stream. It
does not provide the sort of information you mention. My code scanner
does no more than short two terminals. By so doing, I can count flashes
on the "check engine light" that direct me to any suspect sensors. The
CCC system does not, as I have learned, make note of vacuum leaks.

I'm getting more responses at sci.electronics.repair and
sci.environment than I am at rec.autos.tech.

Thanks for writing, one and all.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Then presumably has an adjustment for the idle mixture?

Yes, but they're sealed. Federal law and so forth. I mean, no one would
ever know, but to get at the idle mixture adjustment screws, I'd have
to take the carburetor off and drill out the sealing plugs. There are
quite a few connections to the carburetor, so its removal is a major
undertaking.

In article m,
Beloved Leader wrote:
Then presumably has an adjustment for the idle mixture?

Yes, but they're sealed. Federal law and so forth. I mean, no one would
ever know, but to get at the idle mixture adjustment screws, I'd have
to take the carburetor off and drill out the sealing plugs.

On UK cars with this feature (for export to the US, etc) it's much easier
than that to remove the plug.

There are quite a few connections to the carburetor, so its removal is a
major undertaking.

Yup. Other thing to check for if the mixture is 'lean' at idle while
otherwise ok is air leaks round the buttefly spindle bushes. Smear some
grease round the outside for a temporary 'cure'. If the idle speed then
goes to normal you've got the reason.

--
*Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called rush hour?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
ups.com...

By the way, run the air conditioner compressor for at least 10 minutes
in a row each week, even during the winter, to keep the shaft seal from
drying out. You have a Freon R-12 system and don't want any of that
gas to leak out, and you don't want to convert to R-134a the wrong way
(cheap, quick conversions don't perform well and have high failure
rates).

What about http://www.duracool.com/ ??

"Beloved Leader" wrote in
ups.com:


Jim Yanik wrote:
Are you sure it's a carburetor and not just a throttle body with single
port injection?

Totally, absolutely, positively, one hundred thousand, million,
billion, trillion percent. The carbureted 307 was last used in the
1990-model cars. In 1991, GM replaced it with the FI 305.

Is the TPS wired up?

Yes.

Well,what do you think the car does with that data?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
Is the TPS wired up?

Yes.

Well,what do you think the car does with that data?

The data from the throttle position sensor is sent to the ECM, along
with the data from all the other sensors. The ECM uses that data to
control, in accordance with a look-up table in the ECM's memory, the
setting or position of a variety of actuators.

In article .com,
says...
wrote:


Try injecting propane or choke cleaner into the air intake (leave air
filter and cover in place -- prevents fires in case of spit back) for a
few seconds. If the idle (set to about 550 RPM) smooths out (injecting
chemicals will make it speed up by as much as 200 RPM), suspect a
vacuum leak or a carburetor problem.

I can try that, using an unlit propane torch. Bear in mind that the
idle's not rough, just low. Nonetheless, I find it hard to argue with
such a sterling reading on my vacuum gauge. For the record, I'm getting
my vacuum reading from a port that leads to the vacuum chamber for the
car's vacuum-actuated cruise control.

You didn't mention the mileage on the engine. Consider that older engines tend
to have trouble with valve guide seals, which harden with age. A bit of extra
oil will seep past into the intake and may add to your HC emissions, especially
at low speeds when the throttle is almost closed. Also, your rings may be
allowing some oil into the cylinders. One final point to check, if you haven't
already done so, would be your PCV valve, which should close at high vacuum,
but may be so dirty or worn that it is not doing so, thus allowing excessive
amounts of gas into the intake manifold from the crankcase.

--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------