On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:37:28 -0500
"ScottWW" wrote:

For me, its more difficult to sand off the impression of a visible 2H
mark than to erase a visible #1 or 2B mark.

works for me i press the same as i always do and get a lighter mark
with less lead on the wood

thread has evolved into the finer points of drafting pencils.

good one

probably devolved is a better choice for the pun but still good

On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:56:33 -0500
Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with

best cure for rust is to soak it in water then scrape the rust off with
something appropriate

once you get it where you want it dry it well then lightly mineral oil it

Electric Comet wrote in news:n3ief6$3fo$1
@dont-email.me:

On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:56:33 -0500
Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with

best cure for rust is to soak it in water then scrape the rust off with
something appropriate

once you get it where you want it dry it well then lightly mineral oil it


What good would it do to soak a rusty piece of metal in water?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 30 Nov 2015 23:09:38 GMT
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

What good would it do to soak a rusty piece of metal in water?

water is the solvent for rust and does much good
it will really loosen up the rust

i treated a table saw this way and it worked very well
i used a putty knife to scrape away most of the rust
then a wire brush with more water

then dried it well and applied mineral oil let that set a while
then wiped off again with dry towel

On 11/30/15 3:19 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:56:33 -0500
Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with

best cure for rust is to soak it in water then scrape the rust off with
something appropriate


Bull****. Best "cure" for rust is phosphoric acid which is the active
ingredient in any good rust cleaner, including naval jelly.


once you get it where you want it dry it well then lightly mineral oil it


What is your constant aversion to punctuation?
I skip over half the stuff you post because it's barely readable.
When I do happen to read it, it's generally BS like in this post and
that whole "caul" debacle.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/30/15 6:08 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On 30 Nov 2015 23:09:38 GMT
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

What good would it do to soak a rusty piece of metal in water?

water is the solvent for rust and does much good
it will really loosen up the rust

i treated a table saw this way and it worked very well
i used a putty knife to scrape away most of the rust
then a wire brush with more water


If you use a phosphoric acid cleaner, like Boeshield Rust Free, there
would be no scrubbing or scraping necessary. Let science to the hard
work.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/30/15 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Jack writes:
On 11/29/2015 10:56 PM, Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of
silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it
works out.

For heavy rust, I always used Navel gel. Works a treat. When finished
wipe off with water, then lacquer thinner, then coat with Top-Coat type
product.

The problem is that once you clean up a badly rusted
cutting tool, you're often left with pitting near the
cutting edge which, unless lapped completely out,
will make it nigh impossible to sharpen the tool to a
good edge.


How deep could any pitting be? Give me a grinder and 30 seconds and the
pitting is gone. Then another couple minutes to "scary sharp."

Most chisels that actually get used a lot end up an inch or so shorter
than they started from sharpening over and over and over again over
their many years of use.

Decades ago, before you could stop at the local big box and buy new set
of disposable chisels for 30 bucks, cabinet shops had to use theirs down
to the nubs. It was very common to see chisels ranging from a foot long
down to a couple inches. They sharpened and sharpened for years and
years and used just about every inch.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 9:00:29 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

How deep could any pitting be? Give me a grinder and 30 seconds and the
pitting is gone. Then another couple minutes to "scary sharp."

Most chisels that actually get used a lot end up an inch or so shorter
than they started from sharpening over and over and over again over
their many years of use.

Preach it, Mike! All true.

Decades ago, before you could stop at the local big box and buy new set
of disposable chisels for 30 bucks, cabinet shops had to use theirs down
to the nubs. It was very common to see chisels ranging from a foot long
down to a couple inches. They sharpened and sharpened for years and
years and used just about every inch.

I am a sharpening (near) fanatic. All chisels, pocket knives, hunting knives, machetes, planes, kitchen knives and my woodturning tools must be nasty sharp. Always. I sharpen my kitchen knives every single time I use them, and my pocket knives (I carry two) usually about once a week or so.

You learn that the time invested on those mirrored edges prized by some are only worth the effort on some cutting instruments, and they are few. I will set aside fine carving tools and certain specialty chisels, but the rest, not a chance.

Most of the carbon chisels are 10XX, usually something like 1084 0r 1087, and hardened only to about 55 RC or so... usually less. Makes a good cutter for a short bit, but nothing spectacular. Some are lesser steels, hardened to even lower points, and worse, incorrectly hardened. This is unlike a good plane blade (like a Hock) which are I believe 1095, and IIRC, hardened to about 57-58RC. Harder and better steel, but harder for some to sharpen. The reason they don't harden the steels to higher RC points is because most people can't sharpen properly anyway, and people like me that use a cutting tools a lot sharpen (and plan to) frequently.

Since 10XX chisels won't hold their edge to my satisfaction, I usually only sharpen to 320gr on my rougher chisels, and 600gr on my finish. Now on a couple of my pocket knives that have VG10, 154CM, and even D2 that are hardened up to about 60RC, one a bit north, the mirror finish on the edge is worth it.

You used to see those chisels ground down like you described because in some uses a toothier edge yielded better results for cutting. But even a more coarse edge requires sharpening. So off the tradesmen went to their favorite sharpening device, and the chisels paid the price for poor sharpening technique. Like so many pocket knives that have been ground to nothing, the same happens to wood chisels. Until they were stolen, I had a great set of SEARS chisels that were made in the 70s, and they were my favorites. Hard enough to hold and edge pretty well, but soft enough to sharpen in the field.

I just got a set of Buck Bros. chisels earlier this year at HD, and they aren't even good enough to call junk. They are worse than awful, completely useless. You can get a razor edge on one, and it is gone in a few cuts. I am trying out some new ones from Amazon as I need a good 3/4" chisel in my kit, always.

Seeing your post made me think of some of the told timers I worked with in the 70s and 80s that had ground off about 2" on some of their chisels and they looked like some kind of specialty chisel. I didn't know for some time that they actually had sharpened those bad boys that much.

Robert

wrote:
On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 9:00:29 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

How deep could any pitting be? Give me a grinder and 30 seconds and the
pitting is gone. Then another couple minutes to "scary sharp."

Most chisels that actually get used a lot end up an inch or so shorter
than they started from sharpening over and over and over again over
their many years of use.
Preach it, Mike! All true.

Decades ago, before you could stop at the local big box and buy new set
of disposable chisels for 30 bucks, cabinet shops had to use theirs down
to the nubs. It was very common to see chisels ranging from a foot long
down to a couple inches. They sharpened and sharpened for years and
years and used just about every inch.
I am a sharpening (near) fanatic. All chisels, pocket knives, hunting knives, machetes, planes, kitchen knives and my woodturning tools must be nasty sharp. Always. I sharpen my kitchen knives every single time I use them, and my pocket knives (I carry two) usually about once a week or so.

That's a good argument in favor of a "sharpening station", which almost
no one seems to have room for.... I may have to look a little harder.

Bill

-MIKE- writes:
On 11/30/15 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Jack writes:
On 11/29/2015 10:56 PM, Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of
silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it
works out.

For heavy rust, I always used Navel gel. Works a treat. When finished
wipe off with water, then lacquer thinner, then coat with Top-Coat type
product.

The problem is that once you clean up a badly rusted
cutting tool, you're often left with pitting near the
cutting edge which, unless lapped completely out,
will make it nigh impossible to sharpen the tool to a
good edge.


How deep could any pitting be? Give me a grinder and 30 seconds and the
pitting is gone. Then another couple minutes to "scary sharp."

It's the back of the chisel or blade that becomes pitted. You can't
grind those pits out as they're not generally concentrated at the cutting
edge, but rather further away from the bevel. You'd have to grind
off most of the blade to eliminate the pits.

Yes, pits in the cutting edge itself, or on the bevel side can be ground
away. Pits on the back, not so much, and they affect the quality of
the cutting edge.

On 12/01/2015 7:47 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
....

Yes, pits in the cutting edge itself, or on the bevel side can be ground
away. Pits on the back, not so much, and they affect the quality of
the cutting edge.

Unless they're either humongous or exceedingly numerous, the fractional
area lost would be miniscule. If there's one in the current edge area,
it'll go away too if the edge is ground back if it can't be honed away.

--

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:01:17 -0600
-MIKE- wrote:

Bull****. Best "cure" for rust is phosphoric acid which is the
active ingredient in any good rust cleaner, including naval jelly.

as always i prefer the simple and cheap solution

and if i get water on other parts it will dry

not sure what concentration of acid is in those products but acid is usually
not good for paint or wood etc.

so no cost
no gloves
no hazardous cleanup
no effect on other parts

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:03:55 -0600
-MIKE- wrote:

If you use a phosphoric acid cleaner, like Boeshield Rust Free, there
would be no scrubbing or scraping necessary. Let science to the hard
work.


seems to contradict the instruction from the maker


quote
"Directions. For light rust on steel or cast iron, spray RustFree„¢ on a
rag and wipe surface. Do not spray directly on surface, as it may cause
spotting. For heavy rust, spray directly on rusted surface and scrub
with Scotch-Brite„¢ pad. Wipe off and repeat if necessary. RustFree„¢
works best above 70° F.

CAUTION! RustFree„¢ is acidic and should be used with care.

Test on hidden area before use.
Can cause spotting on cast iron and steel.
Rinse off painted surfaces thoroughly and neutralize with soap and
water. Do not use on guns or black oxide tools.
Can dull paint and plastics.
Not for spot cleaning of table tops.
Do not use on polished cast iron surfaces."

On 12/1/15 7:47 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:
On 11/30/15 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Jack writes:
On 11/29/2015 10:56 PM, Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of
silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it
works out.

For heavy rust, I always used Navel gel. Works a treat. When finished
wipe off with water, then lacquer thinner, then coat with Top-Coat type
product.

The problem is that once you clean up a badly rusted
cutting tool, you're often left with pitting near the
cutting edge which, unless lapped completely out,
will make it nigh impossible to sharpen the tool to a
good edge.


How deep could any pitting be? Give me a grinder and 30 seconds and the
pitting is gone. Then another couple minutes to "scary sharp."

It's the back of the chisel or blade that becomes pitted. You can't
grind those pits out as they're not generally concentrated at the cutting
edge, but rather further away from the bevel. You'd have to grind
off most of the blade to eliminate the pits.

Yes, pits in the cutting edge itself, or on the bevel side can be ground
away. Pits on the back, not so much, and they affect the quality of
the cutting edge.


Again, I'd like to see this pitting and ask if it would matter at all.
We're talking wood chisels, here, not surgeons' scalpels.
I imagine all that pitting would do is create a "serrated" edge at those
tiny points.
I suppose if it were an issue one could end up using those chisels to
"hog out" wood and save their finer ones for finishing up for nice,
clean edges.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/1/15 10:16 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:01:17 -0600
-MIKE- wrote:

Bull****. Best "cure" for rust is phosphoric acid which is the
active ingredient in any good rust cleaner, including naval jelly.

as always i prefer the simple and cheap solution

and if i get water on other parts it will dry

not sure what concentration of acid is in those products but acid is usually
not good for paint or wood etc.

so no cost
no gloves
no hazardous cleanup
no effect on other parts


Why do you refuse to "learn" anything from anyone in here?
If you're so worried about those four issues, then I suggest you get out
of woodworking altogether because they are all pretty much daily parts
of the craft.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/1/15 10:37 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:03:55 -0600
-MIKE- wrote:

If you use a phosphoric acid cleaner, like Boeshield Rust Free, there
would be no scrubbing or scraping necessary. Let science to the hard
work.


seems to contradict the instruction from the maker


quote
"Directions. For light rust on steel or cast iron, spray RustFree„¢ on a
rag and wipe surface. Do not spray directly on surface, as it may cause
spotting. For heavy rust, spray directly on rusted surface and scrub
with Scotch-Brite„¢ pad. Wipe off and repeat if necessary. RustFree„¢
works best above 70° F.

CAUTION! RustFree„¢ is acidic and should be used with care.

Test on hidden area before use.
Can cause spotting on cast iron and steel.
Rinse off painted surfaces thoroughly and neutralize with soap and
water. Do not use on guns or black oxide tools.
Can dull paint and plastics.
Not for spot cleaning of table tops.
Do not use on polished cast iron surfaces."


First of all, I was referring to your words, "a putty knife to scrape
away most of the rust
then a wire brush." That's considerably more than simply rubbing the
surface with a Scotch pad. It's akin to 40grit belt sander vs. 220
sandpaper to knock off the nubs from cured lacquer.

Using the Scotch-Brite„¢ pads essentially ensures the acid is getting to
all the rust. I have found it to be unnecessary for about 80% of my
rust removal.

Seriously, rehabbing old power tools is a hobby of mine. Usually when I
get one, whatever metal surface isn't painted with be deeply rusted.
I've tried EVERY technique purported on the internet short of
sandblasting. The only ones that work involve phosphoric acid because
of the chemical and physical reactions it has with rust.

When I first started, I went with RustFree's directions and found the
scrubbing unnecessary. For tough, deep rust, all that is necessary is
to let the product sit a minute or two longer. The reason they tell you
to scrub is the same reason they tell you to NOT use it on polished
surfaces. Because it will cause spotting. The spotting is the acid
somewhat "etching" the metal. Metal workers with use phosphoric acid as
a metal priming technique to give the metal some "bite" for powder
coating. But that's all it will do. It's not an aggressive or
dangerous acid like hydrochloric. That's mostly why they suggest
scrubbing; get it on and get it off quick. It does work fast, by the way.

So, here are the conclusions I came up with for using it.
The places you have deep seated rust on old tools are NOT going to end
up being a smooth polished surface anyway. They are likely cast parts,
that have a rough texture to begin with. Like on a saw: the trunnion,
the underside of the table, etc.
Any parts you that should be smooth, polished surfaces-- like the tables
tops of a saw or jointer, or chisels-- are going to need ground out,
sanded, and polished anyway. So any "pitting," spotting, or etching
done by the phosphoric acid is a moot point, because it'll be sanded out
in the process of smoothing out a polished surface.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- writes:
On 12/1/15 7:47 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:
On 11/30/15 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Jack writes:
On 11/29/2015 10:56 PM, Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of
silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it
works out.

For heavy rust, I always used Navel gel. Works a treat. When finished
wipe off with water, then lacquer thinner, then coat with Top-Coat type
product.

The problem is that once you clean up a badly rusted
cutting tool, you're often left with pitting near the
cutting edge which, unless lapped completely out,
will make it nigh impossible to sharpen the tool to a
good edge.


How deep could any pitting be? Give me a grinder and 30 seconds and the
pitting is gone. Then another couple minutes to "scary sharp."

It's the back of the chisel or blade that becomes pitted. You can't
grind those pits out as they're not generally concentrated at the cutting
edge, but rather further away from the bevel. You'd have to grind
off most of the blade to eliminate the pits.

Yes, pits in the cutting edge itself, or on the bevel side can be ground
away. Pits on the back, not so much, and they affect the quality of
the cutting edge.


Again, I'd like to see this pitting and ask if it would matter at all.
We're talking wood chisels, here, not surgeons' scalpels.
I imagine all that pitting would do is create a "serrated" edge at those
tiny points.

Indeed. For a plane blade, that's a non-starter.

I suppose if it were an issue one could end up using those chisels to
"hog out" wood and save their finer ones for finishing up for nice,
clean edges.


I'll see if I can get some pictures. I've had plane blades where
the back was pitted over more than 50% of the surface. It wasn't
possible to grind the cutting edge back beyond the pitting without
making the blade too short to seat in the plane.

You'll note my original point was for cutting tools, not just chisels.

On 12/1/15 12:16 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:
On 12/1/15 7:47 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:
On 11/30/15 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Jack writes:
On 11/29/2015 10:56 PM, Bill wrote:

I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty
(it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some
of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of
silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it
works out.

For heavy rust, I always used Navel gel. Works a treat. When finished
wipe off with water, then lacquer thinner, then coat with Top-Coat type
product.

The problem is that once you clean up a badly rusted
cutting tool, you're often left with pitting near the
cutting edge which, unless lapped completely out,
will make it nigh impossible to sharpen the tool to a
good edge.


How deep could any pitting be? Give me a grinder and 30 seconds and the
pitting is gone. Then another couple minutes to "scary sharp."

It's the back of the chisel or blade that becomes pitted. You can't
grind those pits out as they're not generally concentrated at the cutting
edge, but rather further away from the bevel. You'd have to grind
off most of the blade to eliminate the pits.

Yes, pits in the cutting edge itself, or on the bevel side can be ground
away. Pits on the back, not so much, and they affect the quality of
the cutting edge.


Again, I'd like to see this pitting and ask if it would matter at all.
We're talking wood chisels, here, not surgeons' scalpels.
I imagine all that pitting would do is create a "serrated" edge at those
tiny points.

Indeed. For a plane blade, that's a non-starter.

I suppose if it were an issue one could end up using those chisels to
"hog out" wood and save their finer ones for finishing up for nice,
clean edges.


I'll see if I can get some pictures. I've had plane blades where
the back was pitted over more than 50% of the surface. It wasn't
possible to grind the cutting edge back beyond the pitting without
making the blade too short to seat in the plane.

You'll note my original point was for cutting tools, not just chisels.


Absolutely!
I can see where it would have a much more negative effect on a plane.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply