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Sideboard Strategies?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 20th 07, 11:28 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 10,052
Default Sideboard Strategies?

"Swingman" wrote in message news:...
There was an article (have a copy, thanks) many years ago in FWW, by the
subject name, whereby the author, a teacher at a respected woodworking
school in Boston, taught/proposed a four part, casework construction

method
that was a bit unusual for traditional sideboard construction - basically

a
dovetailed box, turned on its side, with legs attached (although, sans

legs,
not unusual in many *cabinet* casework methods).

Having sought out, seen, and paid particular attention to the construction
used in many old and antique sideboards these past few years, and having
consistently noted problems that seem to be commonly shared among even the
best made of the bunch(cracks/racking/sagging, etc.), there are many

things
I like about the author's ideas: wood's dimensional instability is pretty
well nullified as an issue, many fewer joints needed, pretty much sag

proof,
etc


The first part of this experiment with an alternate method of designing and
building a sideboard, the casework, is basically complete:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/Projects13.htm

Although quite fussy to effect, I am impressed with the "method" thus far,
as this dovetailed case, with the partitions being housed as well as joined
with through tenons, and the laminated end panels, makes for unbelievably
strong basic framework.

Another advantage, which has become more apparent as the project progresses,
is the relative low cost for a project of this size due to the amount of
secondary wood being utilized.

Here's hoping the surprises continue to be pleasant.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07


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  #2  
Old February 21st 07, 04:19 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 2,999
Default Sideboard Strategies?

I seem to remember earlier discourse from you on this method. Now
seeing it on your site makes it easier to understand.

So... let me see if I do. You are building a dovetailed box, then
veneering it with the appearance grade wood of your choice. You are
then using hidden mechanical joints as needed in the final assembly.
Yes? No?

The CAD sketch looks quite elegant, but in the construction phase it
looks like a gun safe. How much will that weigh when it is finished?

One more thing... I see the detail of the tenon sticking out top and
bottom to attach the legs. Will those be the only points and means of
attachement?

(Think of Artie Johnson's voice here...) Veeeeery intersting....

Robert

  #3  
Old February 21st 07, 01:48 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 10,052
Default Sideboard Strategies?

wrote in message

So... let me see if I do. You are building a dovetailed box, then
veneering it with the appearance grade wood of your choice.


Side panels only are "veneered" with the primary wood.

In this case, the primary QSWO veneer is 5/8" thick, and, with the 3/4"
thick secondary wood that it is veneered to the oak (poplar, containing the
dovetails that hold the top and bottom to the sides), the sides give you a 1
3/8" thick, long grain-long grain, glue surface for the legs.

I chose those particular dimensions to allow a 1/4" reveal on the 1 5/8"
thick legs when all is assembled.

You are
then using hidden mechanical joints as needed in the final assembly.
Yes? No?


The legs are joined as below ... all other components use traditional
joinery methods, but way fewer "joints" are necessary with this method than
with traditional frame and panel sides.

The CAD sketch looks quite elegant, but in the construction phase it
looks like a gun safe. How much will that weigh when it is finished?


A bit more than traditional frame and panel construction.

The extra will come from a double top, (the real one, which will be fastened
to the casework top ... which, BTW, also acts as a kicker for the top
drawers), and the thicker, laminated sides,

All other components of the sideboard (web frames, drawers, doors, etc)
would be there any way, plus the frame/casework construction is of secondary
wood, which is lighter than the primary wood.

.... and cheaper.

The additional weight should be offset by a marked decrease in
susceptibility to wood movement (all grain in the basic "frame" of the piece
runs in the same direction), plus a huge increase in structural strength,
with less susceptibility to the racking and sagging that plagues these wide,
four legged pieces over time.

One more thing... I see the detail of the tenon sticking out top and
bottom to attach the legs. Will those be the only points and means of
attachement?


Those mortise and tenons you mention, plus 2 more on each leg (the ones you
don't see yet are an addtional M&T joint attaching the front and side bottom
aprons to the legs), PLUS a long grain to long grain glue joint between the
legs and the 1 3/8" thick case sides, running the full height of the case
work.

... actually more leg joint strength than what you get with traditional
frame and panel construction.

(Think of Artie Johnson's voice here...) Veeeeery intersting....


I thought so too ... this is a big piece (63" long) and other than making it
8 legged, which has traditionally been the method to keep long sideboards
from sagging and racking, I was looking for another method.

That said, it is an experimental piece, but with the same degree of planning
and thought that goes into a more traditional project, and with the hope
that it turns out as well in final appearance/design as if it were more
traditional construction.

We'll see ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07


  #4  
Old February 21st 07, 05:34 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 2,999
Default Sideboard Strategies?

Thanks for the detailed reply. I am probably thinking about the
process and mechanical design wayyyy more than I should, but I see
from your post you too were thinking of the savings when using more
secondary appearance materials.

A design like that could also be a great answer help with the low
quality of woods that seem to be the norm. Every time I go the
hardwood store it seems that they either have really good material
(rare) at unbelievably high prices, or they have so so material at
unbelievably high prices.

They also sell crap that should probably be burned.

I like the whole strength consideration, and looking at the design I
am wondering why it took so long for someone to come up with it. But
you are certainly the first one I know to try it. I remember seeing
that mag with the guy's article, but I think your site explains it
better. I had no interest when I saw the article.

I sure hope you let us know (me especially!) how this piece progresses
and how your hands on time compares to the more traditional way.

Robert

  #5  
Old February 21st 07, 08:16 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 10,052
Default Sideboard Strategies?


wrote in message

Thanks for taking a look, Robert.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I am probably thinking about the
process and mechanical design wayyyy more than I should, but I see
from your post you too were thinking of the savings when using more
secondary appearance materials.


~Pro's:
Wood cost
Strength
Mitigation of wood dimensional instability
Overcome racking and sag
Fewer joints

~Con's (thus far)
Weight
Design limitations (?)
Fussy to obtain RCH square on casework

.... and I am a _square_ freak!!

A design like that could also be a great answer help with the low
quality of woods that seem to be the norm. Every time I go the
hardwood store it seems that they either have really good material
(rare) at unbelievably high prices, or they have so so material at
unbelievably high prices.

They also sell crap that should probably be burned.


The secondary material is poplar, which is ubiquitous, can be bought at
midnight at a BORG, and, compared to the primary stock, is reasonable priced
even at those prices.

I like the whole strength consideration, and looking at the design I
am wondering why it took so long for someone to come up with it. But
you are certainly the first one I know to try it. I remember seeing
that mag with the guy's article, but I think your site explains it
better. I had no interest when I saw the article.


I was originally interested because I wanted a long sideboard, but with four
legs instead of eight, and most of the old ones I see have ill fitting doors
and drawers because of racking and sag over time.

I sure hope you let us know (me especially!) how this piece progresses
and how your hands on time compares to the more traditional way.


Don't worry ... I'll bore the crap out of everyone with the details as it
goes along.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07


  #6  
Old February 21st 07, 09:46 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 296
Default Sideboard Strategies?

Swingman wrote:

: In this case, the primary QSWO veneer is 5/8" thick


That ain't veneer.


, and, with the 3/4"
: thick secondary wood that it is veneered to the oak
: The additional weight should be offset by a marked decrease in
: susceptibility to wood movement (all grain in the basic "frame" of the piece
: runs in the same direction)


Is the rate of expansion for QSWO the same as for
flatsawn poplar? if not, you're likely going to have some problems.

-- Andy Barss
  #7  
Old February 21st 07, 11:28 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 6,037
Default Sideboard Strategies?


"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...
Swingman wrote:

: In this case, the primary QSWO veneer is 5/8" thick


That ain't veneer.


If it is not structural and is attached over another material it's a veneer.
Most brick homes are Brick Veneer.



Is the rate of expansion for QSWO the same as for
flatsawn poplar? if not, you're likely going to have some problems.



Hummm,,, might be a good reason the rebate the legs.


  #8  
Old February 22nd 07, 12:08 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 296
Default Sideboard Strategies?

Leon wrote:

: "Andrew Barss" wrote in message
: ...
: Swingman wrote:
:
: : In this case, the primary QSWO veneer is 5/8" thick
:
:
: That ain't veneer.

: If it is not structural and is attached over another material it's a veneer.
: Most brick homes are Brick Veneer.


Yeah, okay. But veneer construction has a property that solid wood
construction doesn't: you don't need to worry that the veneer and its
substrate will differentially expand and contract, breaking the
piece of furniture.


When one is gluing one 5/8" thick board to another 3/4 thick board of a
different species and cut differently (QS vs. flatsawn), you
really do need to worry about this.

: Hummm,,, might be a good reason the rebate the legs.

Might be a good idea to redesign the entire case, actually.


-- Andy Barss
  #9  
Old February 22nd 07, 12:37 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 2,999
Default Sideboard Strategies?

On Feb 21, 5:08 pm, Andrew Barss wrote:


When one is gluing one 5/8" thick board to another 3/4 thick board of a
different species and cut differently (QS vs. flatsawn), you
really do need to worry about this.

: Hummm,,, might be a good reason the rebate the legs.

Might be a good idea to redesign the entire case, actually.


I cannot think (unless it is San Antonio) of a better aquarium to test
the tangenital differences of the two attached products than Houston.
Average humidity... 1,040%, give or take. A drought for Houston is 3
weeks without rain. However, they have the distinct addition to this
mix of getting hotter than hell in the summer.
So da Swinger has a perfect lab to test.

It should be interesting. Say both woods are dried down to between 8
- 12% then laminated. The piece is completed, then finished - inside
and out.

The unknown variable is the addition of the finish and the location of
the piece in the house. I work on a lot of old houses, and have been
told time and time again "that old table likes that spot". Meaning,
when it is put in an area of heavy airflow they see joints open and
drawers stick. Back in its happy place (a less drafty, more
temperature stable area), it will reagain itself after a period of
time. Jon Vogt of Vogt antiques had to confirm this not rare at all
phenomenon, because I believed a little movement was possible, but not
THAT much.

As far as the finishing goes, today's finishes can really grind down
the gears of expansion and contraction. The lacquers I shoot come in
the can around 22% solids, and I understand others are even more.
Some of todays polys are no less than 30% solids! About three coats
of that and you have encased your project in plastic! (But remember
Karl uses his own witches brew and method.... bubble bubble... toil
and trouble...). If this is the protocol he describes on his website,
it will be well sealed, indeed.

While It may not prevent movement altogether, but it will make a huge
difference in mitigating it.

He might be asking for it, but to me it is a toss leaning towards
there being no problems. Sealed properly I don't think the climate for
expansion and contraction will be that drastic since it wll be inside
a home. For him, it is a great science experiment that we will all
benefit from.

Just my 0.02.

Go Swing Go!

Robert

  #10  
Old February 22nd 07, 02:04 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 10,052
Default Sideboard Strategies?

wrote in message
On Feb 21, 5:08 pm, Andrew Barss wrote:


Might be a good idea to redesign the entire case, actually.


He might be asking for it, but to me it is a toss leaning towards
there being no problems. Sealed properly I don't think the climate for
expansion and contraction will be that drastic since it wll be inside
a home. For him, it is a great science experiment that we will all
benefit from.

Just my 0.02.

Go Swing Go!


I wouldn't have seen that if you hadn't replied to it, but I'm sure that
dickhead would just love for his dire prediction to be the case.

FYI, both woods were carefully selected in cut to have almost identical
movement values, .0016 and .0018, respectively. Check out:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...tr113/ch12.pdf

.... for the judge.

While there is still the possibility of slight movement over the 16" span,
sealing will most likely take that out as a factor.

dickhead, still batting zero, should have learned his lesson by now.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07


 




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