I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

"Phisherman" wrote in message

I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

I routinely use a relatively cheap Black and Decker "Bullseye" to mark
reference lines when installing cabinets/shelves, etc. Beats the hell out
of a level for layout, IMO, and although probably considered cheesy by "pro"
standards, it works for me and fits your budget.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

Sears, Ryobi, Black & Decker all sell low cost laser levels that use a
variety of methods to hang on the wall, and all of them seem to me to work
well indoors, as long as they're not put through the abuse pros might give
them. There are probably a couple more out there.

Note the "indoors" above. Almost all current low cost laser tools are not
bright enough to be easily visible in sunshine. A few are. Some of the pro
layout tools are, but here you're probably eyeballing $700 or more for the
gear.

"Swingman" wrote in message

I routinely use a relatively cheap Black and Decker "Bullseye" to mark
reference lines when installing cabinets/shelves, etc. Beats the hell out
of a level for layout, IMO, and although probably considered cheesy by
"pro"
standards, it works for me and fits your budget.

Forgot to mention ... don't buy it thinking the"stud finder" is a plus. It's
as basically useless as the proverbial tits on a boar hog.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

If you buy one, get a better one than mine. I don't know the brand I bought
but it was around $20. You get what you pay for! It shoots a nice straight
line, but level? Not even close. It's off by 1/2" on less than 20 feet.
You could also consider a water level.

--

-Mike-

In article , wrote:
I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

First the general comments...

Before you buy anything, I'd _strongly_ suggest you look at the manufacturer's
claimed accuracy. Some of the less expensive ones claim to be accurate to
within, for example, +/- 3/8" at 25 feet -- and that's really pretty damn poor
IMHO. I figure I can get pretty near that close to level just by eye, without
any tools at all, and I *know* I can do a lot better than that with a water
level (long clear vinyl tube full of water).

I've also seen one or two of the cheaper ones that claim "99-point-something
percent" accuracy, which sounds good until you think about it a bit, and
realize that 25 feet is 300 inches... and "99.5% accuracy" means an error of
an _inch_and_a_half_!

As the price goes up, so does the accuracy... but I am not persuaded that any
of these devices offer any improvement over plumb bobs and the various types
of conventional levels, other than convenience. And the convenience isn't much
use, if the accuracy isn't there. I know from experience that I can lay out
horizontal lines around a large room, using only a water level, a pencil, a
couple chairs, and a helper, with an accumulated error across all four corners
of only about 1/16". Homeowner-grade laser levels just aren't that accurate.
I'm sure that many professional-grade tools *are*... if you want to spend in
four figures.

Now the specific:

I bought a David White "Tri-Beam Torpedo Laser Level" at Lowes a few months
ago -- and returned it after using it (or, more precisely, *trying* to use it)
for only 30 minutes. It was a piece of crap. For seventy bucks, I expect a
laser that projects a fairly small, sharp dot. Not! At only 25 feet, the dot
was fuzzy, and at least 3/8" across, while a five-dollar laser pointer
projected a crisp dot less than half as large. The "vertical" beam was even
worse: at only eight feet, it was fuzzy, 1/4" wide, and out of plumb by nearly
half an inch! Again, I can do as well by eye, and much better with basic
tools. I sure don't need a $70 laser to get a stud within a half inch of
plumb.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:26:48 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

I'm wondering if I should buy a laser lever device

Last time I did some tiling I bought one of these
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...28030&ts=67110
One of the best gadgets I ever bought! Paid for itself on one job. It's
a pair of line projector lasers, one vertical and one horizontal.
Excellent for tiling or anything where you're doing complicated two axis
stuff in a small area at a time.

For a simple level around a whole room, I'd probably get a "whirling
spot" device. These aren't quite so visible, but they have a wider
usable arc (360°) without repositioning.

Prices vary a lot. Cheap ones are less bright and less robust, but still
accurate and useful.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:26:48 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners.

I've never done crown moulding but why would you need a level? If you
need a line for the bottom of the moulding why not cut a board to the
right width and just mark along the bottom? You want the line to
follow the ceiling not necessarily be level, don't you?


-Leuf

Leuf wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:26:48 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners.

I've never done crown moulding but why would you need a level? If you
need a line for the bottom of the moulding why not cut a board to the
right width and just mark along the bottom? You want the line to
follow the ceiling not necessarily be level, don't you?


-Leuf

Leuf is right. I've done plenty of crown moulding in my home. A level
is worthless because the ceiling isn't necessarily level, and you don't
want any gaps.

What I tend to do is cut a piece of scrap moulding about 1' long and
use it to mark off every foot or so around the wall. This gives a
perfect reference when setting the moulding into place.

Leuf (in ) said:

| On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:26:48 GMT, Phisherman
| wrote:
|
|| I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
|| molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners.
|
| I've never done crown moulding but why would you need a level? If
| you need a line for the bottom of the moulding why not cut a board
| to the right width and just mark along the bottom? You want the
| line to follow the ceiling not necessarily be level, don't you?

Damn! I used to have a file named applause.wav for occasions like this
(mumble)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Phisherman wrote:

I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

For your project, I'd go with the chalk line. You have two end points, and
they're on a fixed surface, so you're in pretty good shape.

I've found laser levels (especially the ones with multiple lasers at 90
degree angles) to be useful for two things. First, they're great for
lining up things where you don't have a good surface to snap a chalk line
on, e.g. grassy ground. I used one to lay out border stone around some
trees, and to line up a section of decorative fence. It's also great for
finding a square when there's no square surface nearby. The walls in my
house were put up by people who fear straight lines, so when I put tile in
an entryway, finding a true square was made much less painful with two of
the lasers.
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:01:28 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

For a simple level around a whole room, I'd probably get a "whirling
spot" device. These aren't quite so visible, but they have a wider
usable arc (360°) without repositioning.

I don't know enough about these, so I have to ask. Aren't they
levelled using bubbles? If so, what's the advantage? If your eyes
are out of whack, and its' slightly tilted, you'll go full circle, but
at an angle. Also, a slight angle error is a large dimension error at
a distance. That's why I never bothered buying one. I'm curious, and
would really like to know if I'm missing something [and keep the jokes
to yourselves.]

I ran a line around my previous house, 30' square, as a baseline for
putting up siding. I used a stringline and line level. A neighbour
held the other end raising lowering from my point, and we marked our
way around the corners. I called when it was level, and he marked
ahead of me. When it came back to the first corner [I was at the
last, just marked], I called when it was level, and he called back
saying it was right on the first mark. It doesn't get better than
that for anything I'd be doing. I used a level and square to put up
ceiling tile, and you'd need a microscope to see any flaws.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Phisherman" wrote in message

I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

I routinely use a relatively cheap Black and Decker "Bullseye" to mark
reference lines when installing cabinets/shelves, etc. Beats the hell out
of a level for layout, IMO, and although probably considered cheesy by
"pro"
standards, it works for me and fits your budget.

--

I've looked real hard @ the Bullseye level, thinking about it's
"self-leveling" claim. I bought one of the Crapsman ones a couple years
back, and although it was nice to be able to put it on top of a tripod, as
others here have pointed out, the bubble levels are so small you can't get
decent accuracy.

--
Nahmie
The only road to success is always under construction.

Phisherman wrote:
I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

The self leveling kind are the best. IMO, it seems like a waste to
spend cash on a laser line that still requires a mechanical level.

I bought the black & decker from HD that has vertical and horizontal
lines, self leveling, and can be hung from a strap at any level. I
used it when framing my basement, and finding the studs when
drywalling. It really works well.

I can't recall the price $80-$100 I believe.

if you have a camera tripod, I think it will attach to this.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:58:37 -0500, Guess who
wrote:

I don't know enough about these, so I have to ask. Aren't they
levelled using bubbles?

Bubbles or pendulum, depending on what you spend.

If so, what's the advantage?

Convenience. You set up one gadget in the middle of the room, then you
have a horizontal datum all the way round almost instantly. Great for
tiling.

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:55:24 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

Convenience. You set up one gadget in the middle of the room, then you
have a horizontal datum all the way round almost instantly. Great for
tiling.

OK, but it's still a level only because it has a bubble or a pendulum,
not because its a laser. It seems that the laser part is only for
eliminating marking. That would make sense to me now.

Just remember, Swingman, God put tits on boar hogs (and men) "just in
case".

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:59:32 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in message

I routinely use a relatively cheap Black and Decker "Bullseye" to mark
reference lines when installing cabinets/shelves, etc. Beats the hell out
of a level for layout, IMO, and although probably considered cheesy by
"pro"
standards, it works for me and fits your budget.

Forgot to mention ... don't buy it thinking the"stud finder" is a plus. It's
as basically useless as the proverbial tits on a boar hog.

In article ,
"Norman D. Crow" wrote:

I've looked real hard @ the Bullseye level, thinking about it's
"self-leveling" claim.

The cheaper 'self levelling' ones are only as good as the
'frictionlessness' (if there isn't such a word,well..too bad..lol) of
the bearings the laser is mounted on.
The errors are easily measured when you compare accuracy to a K & E 18"
WYE engineers level... and mine is 80+ years old.
Tip the laser one way, allow it to right itself (say from the bottom up)
and drop your cross hair onto the centre of the laser dot. Then tilt the
laser backwards and allow to settle from the top to the bottom.
You'll be less than impressed with the results.

IMHO, the Borg type of lasers are fine for fences and decks and a decent
choice for interior use, like kitchen cabinets. I wholeheartedly agree
with Swingman that 'good enough' is all it needs to be and the added
benefit is that you don't have to clean the pencil- and chalkline marks
off the wall.

But 'accurate??? Try dropping a couple of grand for starters.

IMHO, one is much better off to buy a decent mid-range dumpy level.
With all the rage for lasers, there are lots of used dumpies on the
market.

My 2.2 cents

I just had reason to use a laser level. I bought a cheap Black and
Decker (BDL400S) for $30 (? I think?; NOT much more than that, fer
sure.)

I used it to strike a level line across 6 4X4 posts (3 old and 3 new)
that hold up my patio cover. It's not the 360 deg kind, I had to
strike the level line sequentially across the first 3 posts, then from
the 1st to the 4th, and from the 4th through 5th and 6th. The
longest span was ~25 ft. Most importantly, I was able to use it
alone.

It worked perfectly, saved a LOT of time, and the results were great.
The patio cover came out perfectly, with all rafters and supports
measuring perfectly "level" on a 4-ft bubble level.

-Zz


On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:26:48 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:21:15 -0800, Zz Yzx
wrote:

Just remember, Swingman, God put tits on boar hogs (and men) "just in
case".

I thought it was just something else for teenaged boys to pierce and
**** their parents off.

Rule # 1.

In a bar fight, go for the piercings first.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Norman D. Crow" wrote:

I've looked real hard @ the Bullseye level, thinking about it's
"self-leveling" claim.

The cheaper 'self levelling' ones are only as good as the
'frictionlessness' (if there isn't such a word,well..too bad..lol) of
the bearings the laser is mounted on.
The errors are easily measured when you compare accuracy to a K & E 18"
WYE engineers level... and mine is 80+ years old.
Tip the laser one way, allow it to right itself (say from the bottom up)
and drop your cross hair onto the centre of the laser dot. Then tilt the
laser backwards and allow to settle from the top to the bottom.
You'll be less than impressed with the results.

IMHO, the Borg type of lasers are fine for fences and decks and a decent
choice for interior use, like kitchen cabinets. I wholeheartedly agree
with Swingman that 'good enough' is all it needs to be and the added
benefit is that you don't have to clean the pencil- and chalkline marks
off the wall.

But 'accurate??? Try dropping a couple of grand for starters.

IMHO, one is much better off to buy a decent mid-range dumpy level.
With all the rage for lasers, there are lots of used dumpies on the
market.

I've resisted the temptation of getting a laser level... I've had a water
level for about 25 years that I've used for leveling buildings, leveling
floors, leveling ceilings, installing cabinets, building decks, hanging
exterior siding, setting fence top levels, and for setting grade levels for
driveways, yards, retaining walls, foundations, etc.

I've got it filled with blue colored automotive windshield washer fluid so I
can see the water level easier and so it doesn't freeze. The batteries are
never dead, it only takes one guy to operate, the worse case scenario for
dropping it is having to add more washer fluid, you can set levels outside
line-of-sight (I've hung the water bottle inside the house and marked level
references on the all the outside walls of a house by sticking the hose
through window and door openings), and it was and is cheap. The one I have
uses water only, no electronic gizmo to bust or have dead batteries!

John
Who cannot justify an electronic gizmo when water works just fine... ;~)

Oops... forgot which account I was using... vv is me!

"vv" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Norman D. Crow" wrote:

I've looked real hard @ the Bullseye level, thinking about it's
"self-leveling" claim.

The cheaper 'self levelling' ones are only as good as the
'frictionlessness' (if there isn't such a word,well..too bad..lol) of
the bearings the laser is mounted on.
The errors are easily measured when you compare accuracy to a K & E 18"
WYE engineers level... and mine is 80+ years old.
Tip the laser one way, allow it to right itself (say from the bottom up)
and drop your cross hair onto the centre of the laser dot. Then tilt the
laser backwards and allow to settle from the top to the bottom.
You'll be less than impressed with the results.

IMHO, the Borg type of lasers are fine for fences and decks and a decent
choice for interior use, like kitchen cabinets. I wholeheartedly agree
with Swingman that 'good enough' is all it needs to be and the added
benefit is that you don't have to clean the pencil- and chalkline marks
off the wall.

But 'accurate??? Try dropping a couple of grand for starters.

IMHO, one is much better off to buy a decent mid-range dumpy level.
With all the rage for lasers, there are lots of used dumpies on the
market.

I've resisted the temptation of getting a laser level... I've had a water
level for about 25 years that I've used for leveling buildings, leveling
floors, leveling ceilings, installing cabinets, building decks, hanging
exterior siding, setting fence top levels, and for setting grade levels
for driveways, yards, retaining walls, foundations, etc.

I've got it filled with blue colored automotive windshield washer fluid so
I can see the water level easier and so it doesn't freeze. The batteries
are never dead, it only takes one guy to operate, the worse case scenario
for dropping it is having to add more washer fluid, you can set levels
outside line-of-sight (I've hung the water bottle inside the house and
marked level references on the all the outside walls of a house by
sticking the hose through window and door openings), and it was and is
cheap. The one I have uses water only, no electronic gizmo to bust or have
dead batteries!

John
Who cannot justify an electronic gizmo when water works just fine... ;~)

Is this an example of "Intelligent" design?

"Zz Yzx" wrote in message
...
Just remember, Swingman, God put tits on boar hogs (and men) "just in
case".

Phisherman wrote:
I'm planning to install about 400 feet of (three layered) crown
molding in 5 rooms with several outside corners. I'm wondering if I
should buy a laser lever device or just use what I have (4' bubble
level and chalk line). At the BORG I saw several laser level types
and prices. Any suggestions on brands/types? It would be nice to
keep the price under $50 (I saw some over $300!). What are the big
advantages over a traditional chalk line? I did not particularly like
the 3M stick strips, but I guess there are limited ways to hold the
device up 10' on the wall. TIA

I havent had much luck with "leveling" at all. Id rather make the
surfaces "align" than level. Sometimes the room itself is not level and
your leveling can look off because of this. I found this a lot in
hanging pictures and drapes, etc.

One room has long windows in my house and the ceiling is not aligned
with the windows but you coudnt tell since its all white. When I hung
curtains I was stuck not knowing if I should align to windows or
ceiling. In the end I aligned to ceiling since you cant see the window
line once the drape was installed. This was a redo. The first install I
did with a B&D laser level, and it didnt match either window or ceiling.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

"dnoyeB" wrote in message

I havent had much luck with "leveling" at all. Id rather make the
surfaces "align" than level.

When you install cabinets and shelves, you damn well better "level".

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

Ok. I give up. I have never heard of the term "dumpy level" before nor can I
figure out what it means by the context. Will someone please take pity on
poor ol' me and pound the meaning into my thick head. Thanks. Larry
"Robatoy" wrote in
snip
IMHO, one is much better off to buy a decent mid-range dumpy level.
With all the rage for lasers, there are lots of used dumpies on the
market.

My 2.2 cents

In article , larry
wrote:

Ok. I give up. I have never heard of the term "dumpy level" before nor can I
figure out what it means by the context. Will someone please take pity on
poor ol' me and pound the meaning into my thick head. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumpy_level

--
Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
- Mark Twain.