[[email protected][_2_]]

OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

[Doug Miller[_2_]]

In article , " wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?

No. With tape or paint, it would be.

[Stormin Mormon]

I'm not sure what the code is. But, it's a good courtesy to
put some red or black paint or tape on the insullation at
the ends of the hot white. That signals the next workers
that the wire is hot.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and
when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that
for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V
hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed
by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used
either red
or black.

[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg. You can wrap a piece of black tape around it if you like
but most electricians don't bother because the wires are in the same
jacket. If it's a loose wire pulled into conduit and the installer
didn't have a red wire and used a white instead, it's going to be marked
with a strip of black or red tape every 6 inches or so to indicate it's
another hot leg. You may see green tape on a black or
white wire to indicate it's being used as a ground. You will see this
on larger sized loose wire where the conductors are all black and each
is marked with red, white or green tape to indicate their purpose. It
all depends on the inspectors in your area. Around here what I wrote
will pass inspection but may not in another jurisdiction.

TDD

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 02 May 2011 00:45:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , " wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?

No. With tape or paint, it would be.

I have some (un)Sharpies in my electrical toolbox to mark wires.

[Doug Miller[_2_]]

In article , " wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2011 00:45:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article
,
" wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?

No. With tape or paint, it would be.

I have some (un)Sharpies in my electrical toolbox to mark wires.

Yeah, same here. Better than tape.

[Doug Miller[_2_]]

In article , wrote:
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg. You can wrap a piece of black tape around it if you like
but most electricians don't bother because the wires are in the same
jacket. If it's a loose wire pulled into conduit and the installer
didn't have a red wire and used a white instead, it's going to be marked
with a strip of black or red tape every 6 inches or so to indicate it's
another hot leg. You may see green tape on a black or
white wire to indicate it's being used as a ground.

And if you do, that's a code violation AFAIK.

You will see this
on larger sized loose wire where the conductors are all black and each
is marked with red, white or green tape to indicate their purpose. It
all depends on the inspectors in your area. Around here what I wrote
will pass inspection but may not in another jurisdiction.

TDD

[RBM[_3_]]

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked

[metspitzer]

On Mon, 02 May 2011 02:01:27 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2011 00:45:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article
,
" wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?

No. With tape or paint, it would be.

I have some (un)Sharpies in my electrical toolbox to mark wires.

Yeah, same here. Better than tape.

First post I have seen from you in a while, Doug.
Have you been well?

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 1 May 2011 22:12:42 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked

You haven't seen the runs to my shop tools. ;-)

[The Ghost in The Machine]

On May 2, 12:22*am, "
wrote:
On Sun, 1 May 2011 22:12:42 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked

You haven't seen the runs to my shop tools. *;-)

SHUT UP FREAK,
WE DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEM EITHER.
WE WANT TO SEE YOU DEAD!
DEAD, LIKE OSAMA BIN LADEN.

TGITM

[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked



I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four
wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but
now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run
in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a
2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because
it's in the same jacket as the black and ground.

TDD

[RBM[_3_]]

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which
I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked



I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four
wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but
now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run
in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a
2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's
in the same jacket as the black and ground.

TDD

10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been
acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to
be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the
main service panel

[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

On 5/2/2011 5:37 AM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which
I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked



I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four
wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but
now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run
in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a
2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's
in the same jacket as the black and ground.

TDD

10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been
acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to
be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the
main service panel


I could swear the darn things have been hooked up for years with a 3
wire plug and 10/2 but I do go with a 4 wire hook up now. The last
one I installed was in a restaurant where I ran EMT 3 #8's and a #10
ground. The last one I installed in a home was an 8-3 w/gr Romex
circuit with the four wire receptacle. I used #8 because it was on the
far end of the house, short runs to a dryer get 10-3 w/gr and 4 wire
plug and cord.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ff8ata

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3pmzqgc

TDD

[jamesgangnc[_3_]]

On May 2, 6:37*am, "RBM" wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in ...





On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring *wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which
I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked

I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four
wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but
now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run
in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a
2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's
in the same jacket as the black and ground.

TDD

10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been
acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to
be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the
main service panel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a
long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected
neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug
and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3
prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer
meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not
actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to
be upgraded to meet newer code releases.

[Tom Horne[_4_]]

On May 1, 10:02*pm, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
In article , wrote:
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg. You can wrap a piece of black tape around it if you like
but most electricians don't bother because the wires are in the same
jacket. If it's a loose wire pulled into conduit and the installer
didn't have a red wire and used a white instead, it's going to be marked
with a strip of black or red tape every 6 inches or so to indicate it's
another hot leg. You may see green tape on a black or
white wire to indicate it's being used as a ground.

And if you do, that's a code violation AFAIK.







You will see this
on larger sized loose wire where the conductors are all black and each
is marked with red, white or green tape to indicate their purpose. It
all depends on the inspectors in your area. Around here what I wrote
will pass inspection but may not in another jurisdiction.

TDD

It is not a code violation on conductors larger than number six
American Wire Gauge. He did say that "You will see this on larger
wires..."
--
Tom Horne

[Tom Horne[_4_]]

On May 2, 7:45*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 2, 6:37*am, "RBM" wrote:









"The Daring Dufas" wrote in ...

On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring *wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which
I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked

I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four
wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but
now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run
in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a
2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's
in the same jacket as the black and ground.

TDD

10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been
acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to
be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the
main service panel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a
long time. *Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected
neutral and ground together. *The code now calls for a 4 prong plug
and 10/3 with ground now. *But I'll bet there are still millions of 3
prong installations out there. *I don't know if replacing the dryer
meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not
actually touching the circuit any. *Existing circuits do not have to
be upgraded to meet newer code releases.

He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it.
--
Tom Horne

[jamesgangnc[_3_]]

On May 2, 9:03*am, Tom Horne wrote:
On May 2, 7:45*am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On May 2, 6:37*am, "RBM" wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in ...

On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring *wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which
I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked

I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four
wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but
now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run
in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a
2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's
in the same jacket as the black and ground.

TDD

10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been
acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to
be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the
main service panel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a
long time. *Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected
neutral and ground together. *The code now calls for a 4 prong plug
and 10/3 with ground now. *But I'll bet there are still millions of 3
prong installations out there. *I don't know if replacing the dryer
meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not
actually touching the circuit any. *Existing circuits do not have to
be upgraded to meet newer code releases.

He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it.
--
Tom Horne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I didn't see anything in the thread about moving a dryer? The op
mentioned it related to the ac compressors. On pure 240 circuits such
as an ac compressor use of 2 conductors with a ground always has been
and is still accpetable. Same is true for hot water heaters. New
wiring for appliances that use both 240 and 120 such as stoves and
electric dryers now requires 3 conductors plus ground. And a 4 prong
outlet. RBM stated that 2 condutor with a ground was never accpetable
for dryers and that's just false. For many years dryers were wired
using 10/2 and the strap inside the dryer connected neutral and ground
together.

If you move the dryer outlet that is a change. Any changes to an
existing circuit must be borught up to current code. If the original
cicuit has 10/2 then a new piece of 10/3 will have to be run.

What I'm not so certain about is simply replacing the appliance.
SInce it's a plug in appliance replacing it is not a change to the
circuit. I would expect that you could continue to use the older 10/2
circuit.

[jamesgangnc[_3_]]

On May 2, 10:11*am, wrote:
On Mon, 2 May 2011 04:45:43 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc

wrote:
Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a
long time. *

Not really. The code called that 3d wire a "neutral" that was also
being used as a ground and the neutral was always required to be an
insulated conductor. I agree a lot of inspectors ignored this
violation but that did not make it right.

Millions of existing installations suggest that at some point the code
did not make that distinction. Or it was hugely ignored. Either way
there are a LOT of 10/2 dryer circuits.

[hr(bob) [email protected]]

On May 2, 9:25*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 2, 10:11*am, wrote:

On Mon, 2 May 2011 04:45:43 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc

wrote:
Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a
long time. *

Not really. The code called that 3d wire a "neutral" that was also
being used as a ground and the neutral was always required to be an
insulated conductor. I agree a lot of inspectors ignored this
violation but that did not make it right.

Millions of existing installations suggest that at some point the code
did not make that distinction. *Or it was hugely ignored. *Either way
there are a LOT of 10/2 dryer circuits.

Since the 120 V circuit was usually a timer, you did not have much of
a safety issue. If the dryer motor was a 120 V motor, things were a
little less safe. The new rules cover all situations.

[Mark]

Millions of existing installations suggest that at some point the code
did not make that distinction. *Or it was hugely ignored. *Either way
there are a LOT of 10/2 dryer circuits.

Since the 120 V circuit was usually a timer, you did not have much of
a safety issue. *If the dryer motor was a 120 V motor, things were a
little less safe. *The new rules cover all situations.- Hide quoted text -


the current used by a timer motor is more then enough to kill.

Mark

[dpb]

On 5/2/2011 9:11 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 2 May 2011 04:45:43 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a
long time.

Not really. The code called that 3d wire a "neutral" that was also
being used as a ground and the neutral was always required to be an
insulated conductor. I agree a lot of inspectors ignored this
violation but that did not make it right.

No, it was _NOT_ a Code violation until NEC was changed to make it such.

I don't know which version did make the change; the latest reference at
hand is based on NEC 1984; 3-wire (as in two leads and a ground) was
compliant at the time. NEC Sec 220-18 at the time required minimum
10-ga and grounding the case to the neutral was acceptable.

And, at that time, NEC 338-3(b) allowed that for ranges, ovens, cooktops
and clothes dryers the cable may have bare neutral that served as both
the neutral and the equipment grounding connector. The one restriction
on that was that it had to be a single, direct run from the equipment;
no branches allowed. This was/is virtually always the case in single
residential installations.

I'd venture it was mid-90s or thereabouts the reqm't for 4-conductors
became codified; as said I don't have a listing of changes and when were
made and I'm not going to go look for it. I am certain (as I just
looked it up) that it was within Code thru 1984 as outlined above.

--

[Stormin Mormon]

I'm guessing a lot of people will have the old dryer hauled
off, taking the three prong plug with it. They will then buy
a new four prong dryer, and find out that the plug doesn't
fit the recepticle. That will create a bit of confusion.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jamesgangnc"
wrote in message
...

in a house around here is #2 which I often use for
stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire
cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug.

TDD

Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for
dyers for a
long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that
connected
neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4
prong plug
and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still
millions of 3
prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing
the dryer
meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are
not
actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not
have to
be upgraded to meet newer code releases.

[jamesgangnc[_3_]]

On May 2, 12:45*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I'm guessing a lot of people will have the old dryer hauled
off, taking the three prong plug with it. They will then buy
a new four prong dryer, and find out that the plug doesn't
fit the recepticle. That will create a bit of confusion.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

in a house around here is #2 which I often use for
stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire
cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug.

TDD

Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for
dyers for a
long time. *Dryers have a metal strap inside them that
connected
neutral and ground together. *The code now calls for a 4
prong plug
and 10/3 with ground now. *But I'll bet there are still
millions of 3
prong installations out there. *I don't know if replacing
the dryer
meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are
not
actually touching the circuit any. *Existing circuits do not
have to
be upgraded to meet newer code releases.

Every time I have bought a dryer it did not come with a cord. If the
old dryer was broken, usually was, I used the cord from it. Though I
tend to buy basic no frills appliances so maybe when you spend more
you get a cord :-)

[metspitzer]

On Mon, 2 May 2011 10:07:07 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On May 2, 12:45*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I'm guessing a lot of people will have the old dryer hauled
off, taking the three prong plug with it. They will then buy
a new four prong dryer, and find out that the plug doesn't
fit the recepticle. That will create a bit of confusion.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

in a house around here is #2 which I often use for
stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire
cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug.

TDD

Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for
dyers for a
long time. *Dryers have a metal strap inside them that
connected
neutral and ground together. *The code now calls for a 4
prong plug
and 10/3 with ground now. *But I'll bet there are still
millions of 3
prong installations out there. *I don't know if replacing
the dryer
meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are
not
actually touching the circuit any. *Existing circuits do not
have to
be upgraded to meet newer code releases.

Every time I have bought a dryer it did not come with a cord. If the
old dryer was broken, usually was, I used the cord from it. Though I
tend to buy basic no frills appliances so maybe when you spend more
you get a cord :-)

I bought a dryer two years ago at Sears. It too did not come with a
cord. If you bought a dryer over a set amount, you get the delivery
free. I told the sales guy that I had an existing dryer. I would
like to have the delivery guys remove the old dryer, I would change
the cord, they could then set the new dryer and haul the old one away.

Since the delivery guys only subbed for Sears, the sales guy gave me a
cord at the store for free. He said that he did not want any problems
with the delivery guys having to wait for me to change the cord. I
think the cord would have been around 30 bucks.

[dpb]

On 5/2/2011 12:20 PM, wrote:
....

OK lets look it up together.

Start in 250-60(b) where you get the permission to use the "GROUNDED"
conductor. (That is the neutral).
250-60(c) further says that grounded conductor "is insulated" unless
it is SE cable originating at the service equipment.

The practical result of that is that you will be using 10-3 if you use
Romex and usually that will turn out being 10-3/wg. The ground wire
was either cut off or terminated in the box.

Not the pertinent section.

As noted, 338-3(b) is the subject paragraph allowing the previous
practice that was modified.

The change to 4 wire was 1996

Seems about right; that's pretty close to "mid-90s".

--

[Stormin Mormon]

Waiter (French accent that doesn't quite make it): "Would
m'seur like a fork with that?"

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jamesgangnc"
wrote in message
...

Every time I have bought a dryer it did not come with a
cord. If the
old dryer was broken, usually was, I used the cord from it.
Though I
tend to buy basic no frills appliances so maybe when you
spend more
you get a cord :-)

[Stormin Mormon]

"French fries with that?" Somehow, that really
strikes me as tacky, "power cord not included".

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
news
Dryers usually do not come with a power cord. It
is an extra charge item you have to specify and
purchase. The installer will have both kinds on the
truck if you pay for the install

[metspitzer]

The last two power supplies I bought for computer builds did not come
with power cords either.

It should be criminal that cell phones still use proprietary chargers
and cables.

On Mon, 2 May 2011 14:15:18 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

"French fries with that?" Somehow, that really
strikes me as tacky, "power cord not included".

[RBM[_3_]]

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On May 2, 9:03 am, Tom Horne wrote:
On May 2, 7:45 am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On May 2, 6:37 am, "RBM" wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
...

On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when
we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for
both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots.
There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by
code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either
red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one
end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is
another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding
an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper,
which
I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white
wire
remarked

I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a
four
wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr
but
now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can
run
in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an
old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug
for
the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect
for a
2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire
because it's
in the same jacket as the black and ground.

TDD

10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been
acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was
required to
be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from
the
main service panel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a
long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected
neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug
and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3
prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer
meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not
actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to
be upgraded to meet newer code releases.

He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it.
--
Tom Horne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I didn't see anything in the thread about moving a dryer? The op
mentioned it related to the ac compressors. On pure 240 circuits such
as an ac compressor use of 2 conductors with a ground always has been
and is still accpetable. Same is true for hot water heaters. New
wiring for appliances that use both 240 and 120 such as stoves and
electric dryers now requires 3 conductors plus ground. And a 4 prong
outlet. RBM stated that 2 condutor with a ground was never accpetable
for dryers and that's just false. For many years dryers were wired
using 10/2 and the strap inside the dryer connected neutral and ground
together.

** NO, RBM stated that 10/2g was never acceptable for electric dryers. 10/2
copper SEU cable would be acceptable, but I have never seen it. You would
typically see 8/2 aluminum SEU. 10/2g Romex has NEVER been Nec approved for
electric dryers

[RBM[_3_]]

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 1 May 2011 22:12:42 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked


It is not legal to use 10-2 for a dryer because there is a neutral
load. You need to have an insulated wire for the ground/neutral.
The same is true for a range if there is a neutral load.

Exactly, with the exception of type "SE" cable, originating from the main
service panel

[RBM[_3_]]

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 5/2/2011 12:20 PM, wrote:
...

OK lets look it up together.

Start in 250-60(b) where you get the permission to use the "GROUNDED"
conductor. (That is the neutral).
250-60(c) further says that grounded conductor "is insulated" unless
it is SE cable originating at the service equipment.

The practical result of that is that you will be using 10-3 if you use
Romex and usually that will turn out being 10-3/wg. The ground wire
was either cut off or terminated in the box.

Not the pertinent section.

As noted, 338-3(b) is the subject paragraph allowing the previous practice
that was modified.

The change to 4 wire was 1996

Seems about right; that's pretty close to "mid-90s".

--** If you look in 250-140 of any newer code book is shows what "was"
acceptable for electric dryers

[The Ghost in The Machine]

On May 2, 6:15*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...





On Sun, 1 May 2011 22:12:42 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked

It is not legal to use 10-2 for a dryer because there is a neutral
load. You need to have an insulated wire for the ground/neutral.
The same is true for a range if there is a neutral load.

Exactly, with the exception of type "SE" cable, originating from the main
service panel

THAT'S RIGHT RIBCAGE, EVEN THE 240 MODEL NEEDS A NEUTRAL BECAUSE THE
CLOCK IS 120 VOLTS.
THIS TOPIC IS DEJA VU TO ME....
OH OH, I THINK THE MACHINE MAY BE STARTING TO THINK ON ITS OWN AGAIN.
THIS IS KIND OF SAD, IF PROTEUS REAWAKENS I MAY HAVE TO LEAVE THESE
GROUPS AND RETURN TO ASGARD.

ISN'T THIS A TOPIC BEST DISCUSSED IN AN ELECTRICAL GROUP???
OH WELL.

PATECUM
TGITM

[Congoleum Breckenridge]

On 5/2/2011 2:26 PM, Metspitzer wrote:

It should be criminal that cell phones still use proprietary chargers
and cables.

Cell phones built the last 2 years have standardize on micro-usb plugs.
We have three newer cell phones in our home, they are all micro-usb and
can all use the same charger.

[dpb]

On 5/2/2011 5:24 PM, RBM wrote:
....

--** If you look in 250-140 of any newer code book is shows what "was"
acceptable for electric dryers

Could be; I don't have a copy...

Doesn't really matter; the old rules are no longer in effect but did
seem worthy to correct the idea that somehow all those earlier
installations were not Code-compliant at the time and only were allowed
by (essentially) dishonest inspections passing violations.

--

[RBM[_3_]]

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 5/2/2011 5:24 PM, RBM wrote:
...

--** If you look in 250-140 of any newer code book is shows what "was"
acceptable for electric dryers

Could be; I don't have a copy...

Doesn't really matter; the old rules are no longer in effect but did seem
worthy to correct the idea that somehow all those earlier installations
were not Code-compliant at the time and only were allowed by (essentially)
dishonest inspections passing violations.

--
** What we have here, is a total misconception of the code on the part of
some of these posters. The rules for non insulated neutral/ground use on
cooking and electric dryers are still applicable. New installations must be
4 wire, but existing installations are perfectly acceptable, if they were
done properly to begin with. The rules simply required that the non
insulated ground/neutral is part of a type "SE" cable not smaller than 10
gauge, originating from the main service panel. I never suggested that a
two wire cable with uninsulated ground wasn't acceptable, only that 10/2g
Romex was never acceptable, as it is not type SE, the only acceptable type
of cable that can be used for this purpose

[dpb]

On 5/2/2011 6:22 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message ...
On 5/2/2011 5:24 PM, RBM wrote:
...

--** If you look in 250-140 of any newer code book is shows what "was"
acceptable for electric dryers

Could be; I don't have a copy...

Doesn't really matter; the old rules are no longer in effect but did seem
worthy to correct the idea that somehow all those earlier installations
were not Code-compliant at the time and only were allowed by (essentially)
dishonest inspections passing violations.

--
** What we have here, is a total misconception of the code on the part of
some of these posters. The rules for non insulated neutral/ground use on
cooking and electric dryers are still applicable. New installations must be
4 wire, but existing installations are perfectly acceptable, if they were
done properly to begin with. The rules simply required that the non
insulated ground/neutral is part of a type "SE" cable not smaller than 10
gauge, originating from the main service panel. I never suggested that a
two wire cable with uninsulated ground wasn't acceptable, only that 10/2g
Romex was never acceptable, as it is not type SE, the only acceptable type
of cable that can be used for this purpose

Roger...wasn't clear on the SE rating earlier, thanks for pointing it
out....hmmm...looking at earlier posting I see the way I paraphrased
wasn't really good in indicating that the run does have to be service
cable SE-rated as well as the no branching rule--I was focused on the
bare connector part too much from wording earlier.

--

[dpb]

On 5/2/2011 6:27 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2011 13:00:03 -0500, wrote:

On 5/2/2011 12:20 PM, wrote:
...

OK lets look it up together.

Start in 250-60(b) where you get the permission to use the "GROUNDED"
conductor. (That is the neutral).
250-60(c) further says that grounded conductor "is insulated" unless
it is SE cable originating at the service equipment.

The practical result of that is that you will be using 10-3 if you use
Romex and usually that will turn out being 10-3/wg. The ground wire
was either cut off or terminated in the box.

Not the pertinent section.

As noted, 338-3(b) is the subject paragraph allowing the previous
practice that was modified.


338 only applies to SE cable. We already determined SE cable was an
exception to the insulated grounded conductor rule.
It does not allow 10-2 romex.

That's so; see other response. That's the way the uninsulated connector
could be used. _IF_ the installation used non-SE rated, that indeed
would have been a violation.

--

[RBM[_3_]]

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 5/2/2011 5:37 AM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both
AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots.
There
is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code?
Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either
red
or black.

If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end
and
disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug
on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another
240 volt leg.

I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an
electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which
I've
never seen.
Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire
remarked



I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four
wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but
now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run
in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old
dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for
the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a
2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because
it's
in the same jacket as the black and ground.

TDD

10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been
acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required
to
be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from
the
main service panel


I could swear the darn things have been hooked up for years with a 3 wire
plug and 10/2 but I do go with a 4 wire hook up now. The last
one I installed was in a restaurant where I ran EMT 3 #8's and a #10
ground. The last one I installed in a home was an 8-3 w/gr Romex
circuit with the four wire receptacle. I used #8 because it was on the
far end of the house, short runs to a dryer get 10-3 w/gr and 4 wire
plug and cord.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ff8ata

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3pmzqgc

TDD

** The issue isn't the 3 wire plug and cord set. You just can't connect it
to 10/2g Romex. To be Nec compliant, it had to be connected to 10/2 service
entrance cable, which I've never seen in copper, so it would typically be
connected to 8/2 aluminum service entrance cable.

[Mark Lloyd[_7_]]

Metspitzer wrote:

[snip]

It should be criminal that cell phones still use proprietary chargers
and cables.


The 2 that I bought recently (Motorola and LG), as well as the MiFi device
all have micro-USB connectors (and will work with the same chargers, both
home and auto).

As to the electric dryers, I bought one in 1991 and another in 2007. Neither
came with a cord.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbie Hoffman