[FlaBill[_2_]]

Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

[Jeff The Drunk[_2_]]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 07:44:03 -0800 (PST), FlaBill
wrote:

Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

30 years? Replace it. Probably filled with sediment reducing the
amount of water by 30% or more.

[RBM[_3_]]

"FlaBill" wrote in message
...
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill


If you got 30 years out of an electric water heater, you got your money's
worth. It is time. I don't know about an electric tankless as a replacement
though, I'd probably stick with something similar to what you have

[Robert Neville]

FlaBill wrote:

Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.

Assuming you have an electric water heater, yes. Failure of the lower element
can lead to limited hot water quantity. Failure of the upper element can lead to
long recovery times. If you aren't up to checking the element continuity
yourself, you can have a plumber stop by.

A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??

Not if you are concerned about economics and performance. The most inexpensive
solution will be to replace the heater with a modern unit.

[Colbyt]

"FlaBill" wrote in message
...
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

I agree with the sediment in the bottom. Also quite probable that one of
the two elements has died.

An element replacement does not justify a new heater but 30 years old does
in my mind.

[Steve B[_3_]]

"FlaBill" wrote in message
...
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

It's past time. The biggest thing with the tankless ones are having the
electricity available at that location. They take a lot of juice.

Steve

[Steve B[_3_]]

"Colbyt" wrote in message
m...

"FlaBill" wrote in message
...
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

I agree with the sediment in the bottom. Also quite probable that one of
the two elements has died.

An element replacement does not justify a new heater but 30 years old does
in my mind.

It could be likely impossible to replace the element due to galling and
corrosion anyway.

Steve

[Steve B[_3_]]

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"FlaBill" wrote in message
...
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill


If you got 30 years out of an electric water heater, you got your money's
worth. It is time. I don't know about an electric tankless as a
replacement though, I'd probably stick with something similar to what you
have

I wanted tankless to replace mine. You need a big power feed to do it. If
you replace with another regular one, get a good one, put a catch pan, an
earthquake strap, use flex hoses with threaded connectors, and put a
blanket. The savings will pile up.

Steve

[ransley]

On Dec 26, 9:44*am, FlaBill wrote:
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

Electric? probably one of 2 bad elements or just a bad thermostat,
there are 2. Can you go gas its usualy 20-50% cheaper to run, an
electric tankless big enough for a house may need its own 100+ amp
circuit and special wiring. Did you try adjustng the upper and lower
thermostat or test it with a meter

[Puddin' Man]

Others have commented well on tankless.

If you tinker at all, I'd recomend tinker unless you're extremely
pressed for time.

It has a drain spout? Get a pan, drain some to get a handle on sediment.

If it has an anode rod, I'd carefully finesse it out for inspection.

Etc, etc.

While it's a good candidate for immediate replacement, you don't really
know what the current problem is. It's possible you could get another
5+ years of use from it. Unless it's extremely inefficient energy-wise,
I'd guess it's worth investigating.

P

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 07:44:03 -0800 (PST), FlaBill wrote:

Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

[Roger Shoaf]

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
Others have commented well on tankless.

If you tinker at all, I'd recomend tinker unless you're extremely
pressed for time.

It has a drain spout? Get a pan, drain some to get a handle on sediment.

If it has an anode rod, I'd carefully finesse it out for inspection.

Etc, etc.

While it's a good candidate for immediate replacement, you don't really
know what the current problem is. It's possible you could get another
5+ years of use from it. Unless it's extremely inefficient energy-wise,
I'd guess it's worth investigating.

P
Good advice, I will add to be sure if you are going to drain the WH, don't
have the power on when the elements are not submerged, this will kill them
in short order.

--

__
Roger Shoaf

Important factors in selecting a mate:
1] Depth of gene pool
2] Position on the food chain.

[Nate Nagel]

Roger Shoaf wrote:
"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
Others have commented well on tankless.

If you tinker at all, I'd recomend tinker unless you're extremely
pressed for time.

It has a drain spout? Get a pan, drain some to get a handle on sediment.

If it has an anode rod, I'd carefully finesse it out for inspection.

Etc, etc.

While it's a good candidate for immediate replacement, you don't really
know what the current problem is. It's possible you could get another
5+ years of use from it. Unless it's extremely inefficient energy-wise,
I'd guess it's worth investigating.

P
Good advice, I will add to be sure if you are going to drain the WH, don't
have the power on when the elements are not submerged, this will kill them
in short order.


And do it while your local hardware store is open, in case the drain
valve doesn't shut again. (have had that problem several times.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:04:23 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Roger Shoaf wrote:
"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
Others have commented well on tankless.

If you tinker at all, I'd recomend tinker unless you're extremely
pressed for time.

It has a drain spout? Get a pan, drain some to get a handle on sediment.

If it has an anode rod, I'd carefully finesse it out for inspection.

Etc, etc.

While it's a good candidate for immediate replacement, you don't really
know what the current problem is. It's possible you could get another
5+ years of use from it. Unless it's extremely inefficient energy-wise,
I'd guess it's worth investigating.

P
Good advice, I will add to be sure if you are going to drain the WH, don't
have the power on when the elements are not submerged, this will kill them
in short order.


And do it while your local hardware store is open, in case the drain
valve doesn't shut again. (have had that problem several times.)

nate
Just make sure you have a "cap" that fits the thread on the valve to
seal it off if it doesn't close properly. And if it doesn't - don't
try to REPLACE the leaking valve - just get fittings to put a second
valve in series with the defective one. Attempting to remove the
original drain valve UWSUALLY proved futile.

When I drain sediment from a water heater I GENERALLY use a garden
hose to direct the sediment/water either to a drain or outside - so a
small leak when shut off can be temorarily dealt with by sticking the
end of the hose down the drain.

[mcp6453[_2_]]

wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:34:51 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:04:23 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Roger Shoaf wrote:
"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
Others have commented well on tankless.

If you tinker at all, I'd recomend tinker unless you're extremely
pressed for time.

It has a drain spout? Get a pan, drain some to get a handle on sediment.

If it has an anode rod, I'd carefully finesse it out for inspection.

Etc, etc.

While it's a good candidate for immediate replacement, you don't really
know what the current problem is. It's possible you could get another
5+ years of use from it. Unless it's extremely inefficient energy-wise,
I'd guess it's worth investigating.

P
Good advice, I will add to be sure if you are going to drain the WH, don't
have the power on when the elements are not submerged, this will kill them
in short order.

And do it while your local hardware store is open, in case the drain
valve doesn't shut again. (have had that problem several times.)

nate
Just make sure you have a "cap" that fits the thread on the valve to
seal it off if it doesn't close properly. And if it doesn't - don't
try to REPLACE the leaking valve - just get fittings to put a second
valve in series with the defective one. Attempting to remove the
original drain valve UWSUALLY proved futile.

When I drain sediment from a water heater I GENERALLY use a garden
hose to direct the sediment/water either to a drain or outside - so a
small leak when shut off can be temorarily dealt with by sticking the
end of the hose down the drain.


I have nasty water and scale is a regular thing. I figured out on
about my second water heater that the drain valve they use will screw
up right away and probably won't pass the big chunks anyway. I put in
a short 3/4" pipe nipple and a gate valve before I even installed the
next new one. You screw in a 3/4 to hose adapter on the output side.
A gate valve opens to the full pipe size and you can take it apart
easily if it cruds up, but that hasn't happened.

I've read of recommendations for changing the drain valve to a metal one, but I
have also heard that the valves can be difficult to impossible to remove after
the unit has any age on it. If the valve stem breaks off, can the remaining
fragments be coaxed out, or is the water heater toast?

[The Daring Dufas[_6_]]

wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:34:51 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:04:23 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Roger Shoaf wrote:
"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
Others have commented well on tankless.

If you tinker at all, I'd recomend tinker unless you're extremely
pressed for time.

It has a drain spout? Get a pan, drain some to get a handle on sediment.

If it has an anode rod, I'd carefully finesse it out for inspection.

Etc, etc.

While it's a good candidate for immediate replacement, you don't really
know what the current problem is. It's possible you could get another
5+ years of use from it. Unless it's extremely inefficient energy-wise,
I'd guess it's worth investigating.

P
Good advice, I will add to be sure if you are going to drain the WH, don't
have the power on when the elements are not submerged, this will kill them
in short order.

And do it while your local hardware store is open, in case the drain
valve doesn't shut again. (have had that problem several times.)

nate
Just make sure you have a "cap" that fits the thread on the valve to
seal it off if it doesn't close properly. And if it doesn't - don't
try to REPLACE the leaking valve - just get fittings to put a second
valve in series with the defective one. Attempting to remove the
original drain valve UWSUALLY proved futile.

When I drain sediment from a water heater I GENERALLY use a garden
hose to direct the sediment/water either to a drain or outside - so a
small leak when shut off can be temorarily dealt with by sticking the
end of the hose down the drain.


I have nasty water and scale is a regular thing. I figured out on
about my second water heater that the drain valve they use will screw
up right away and probably won't pass the big chunks anyway. I put in
a short 3/4" pipe nipple and a gate valve before I even installed the
next new one. You screw in a 3/4 to hose adapter on the output side.
A gate valve opens to the full pipe size and you can take it apart
easily if it cruds up, but that hasn't happened.

I prefer a ball valve over a gate valve. It seems that every gate valve
I've ever come across will leak. On every hot water circulating system
I've ever repaired or installed, I will use ball valves.

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

That is a very wise thing to do. I replaced my hot water
heater a couple years ago, and should have done just exactly
that.

Maybe I should put a full flow drain on my cold water
heater, too?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

I have nasty water and scale is a regular thing. I figured
out on
about my second water heater that the drain valve they use
will screw
up right away and probably won't pass the big chunks anyway.
I put in
a short 3/4" pipe nipple and a gate valve before I even
installed the
next new one. You screw in a 3/4 to hose adapter on the
output side.
A gate valve opens to the full pipe size and you can take it
apart
easily if it cruds up, but that hasn't happened.

[Stormin Mormon]

Ball valves have the advantage of being very simple design.
Thanks for the field report.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas"

wrote in message
...

I prefer a ball valve over a gate valve. It seems that every
gate valve
I've ever come across will leak. On every hot water
circulating system
I've ever repaired or installed, I will use ball valves.

TDD

[Jules[_2_]]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:26:51 -0600, Puddin' Man wrote:
It has a drain spout? Get a pan, drain some to get a handle on sediment.

If it has an anode rod, I'd carefully finesse it out for inspection.

My situation on a 12yo tank (after consulting here and getting some good
advice!):

Both heater elements checked good on a meter (about 13ohms across
terminals, nothing between terminals and tank)

Lower element jammed in solid; even with something like 6' of
breaker bar on it, it still wouldn't come out.

Tank very badly silted up; lower element completely buried.

Lower thermostat showing severe signs of overheating (to the point
that contacts were sticking). Presumably due to lower element
running almost constantly and never tripping the thermostat, but
just creating a local hot spot on the tank body.

.... the thing was, the drain valve is a completely stupid design that just
can't allow larger bits of sediment out - so with it fully open clear
water would come out even if there was a whole pile of sediment in there.
Looking at new designs, they seem to be no different, so are prone to
gradual build-up in the same way.

Anyway, I pulled the upper element (that one would come out) and could
then get a bent bit of bar inside to dislodge sediment from above. I took
the drain valve (just the handle and valve stem, not the body) off and
could then get a bit of bar inside that way and drag sediment out. With
some poking around (and a lot of patience) I got a few buckets worth of
sediment out of the thing.

It's been working fine ever since (after replacing the lower thermostat) -
but one day that lower element will die and then it'll be new tank time
because there's no way I can replace it.

If the OP has a couple of hours to kill then they might try the same - but
I'd question how close a 30yo tank is to just rusting out anyway...

cheers

Jules

[Nate Nagel]

Jules wrote:

... the thing was, the drain valve is a completely stupid design that just
can't allow larger bits of sediment out - so with it fully open clear
water would come out even if there was a whole pile of sediment in there.
Looking at new designs, they seem to be no different, so are prone to
gradual build-up in the same way.

This seems to be typical of all water heaters; even the ones that have
good brass-bodied valves use simple stop valves and not ball or gate
valves which would be far preferable. IMHO the one mod that should be
done to every water heater (if there's still time) is to replace the
stock drain valve with a 3/4" threaded ball valve, a dielectric nipple,
and a 3/4 MPT to male garden hose adapter. With a brass cap on it just
for insurance. Otherwise you're wasting your time trying to drain out
sediment (you just won't get enough flow, and the bigger chunks won't
pass) and you run the real risk of having the valve fail open.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[nefletch]

Nate, I wholeheartily agree with all you've said, but why
the expense of a dielectric nipple? just curious...


stock drain valve with a 3/4" threaded ball valve, a dielectric nipple,
and a 3/4 MPT to male garden hose adapter. With a brass cap on it just
for insurance. Otherwise you're wasting your time trying to drain out
sediment (you just won't get enough flow, and the bigger chunks won't
pass) and you run the real risk of having the valve fail open.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 12/27/2009 12:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Jules wrote:

... the thing was, the drain valve is a completely stupid design that
just
can't allow larger bits of sediment out - so with it fully open clear
water would come out even if there was a whole pile of sediment in there.
Looking at new designs, they seem to be no different, so are prone to
gradual build-up in the same way.

This seems to be typical of all water heaters; even the ones that have
good brass-bodied valves use simple stop valves and not ball or gate
valves which would be far preferable. IMHO the one mod that should be
done to every water heater (if there's still time) is to replace the
stock drain valve with a 3/4" threaded ball valve, a dielectric nipple,
and a 3/4 MPT to male garden hose adapter. With a brass cap on it just
for insurance. Otherwise you're wasting your time trying to drain out
sediment (you just won't get enough flow, and the bigger chunks won't
pass) and you run the real risk of having the valve fail open.

nate


Should I try to make this change on a seven year old electric water heater? I'm
concerned that if I do, the old one will break off instead of unscrew, and I'm
replacing the hot water heater.

I'd like to find the valve shown in the YouTube video, but this brand doesn't
seem to be around any more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaVEIkZtXi4

[Nate Nagel]

mcp6453 wrote:
On 12/27/2009 12:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Jules wrote:

... the thing was, the drain valve is a completely stupid design that
just
can't allow larger bits of sediment out - so with it fully open clear
water would come out even if there was a whole pile of sediment in
there.
Looking at new designs, they seem to be no different, so are prone to
gradual build-up in the same way.

This seems to be typical of all water heaters; even the ones that have
good brass-bodied valves use simple stop valves and not ball or gate
valves which would be far preferable. IMHO the one mod that should be
done to every water heater (if there's still time) is to replace the
stock drain valve with a 3/4" threaded ball valve, a dielectric nipple,
and a 3/4 MPT to male garden hose adapter. With a brass cap on it just
for insurance. Otherwise you're wasting your time trying to drain out
sediment (you just won't get enough flow, and the bigger chunks won't
pass) and you run the real risk of having the valve fail open.

nate


Should I try to make this change on a seven year old electric water
heater? I'm concerned that if I do, the old one will break off instead
of unscrew, and I'm replacing the hot water heater.

That's a decision only you can make. I managed to get two out that were
far older (bought a house with old heaters in it) but you may not be so
lucky. You pays your money and takes your chances.

I'd like to find the valve shown in the YouTube video, but this brand
doesn't seem to be around any more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaVEIkZtXi4


That appears to be exactly what I was describing above, simply packaged
all together. just a 3/4" ball valve. Not that it's not worthwhile, it
doesn't appear any different than what I was able to cobble together
in the plumbing section at my local Big Box. If you like ordering
online, check out waterheaterrescue.com

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[Jules[_2_]]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 14:11:15 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
Should I try to make this change on a seven year old electric water
heater? I'm concerned that if I do, the old one will break off instead
of unscrew, and I'm replacing the hot water heater.

That's a decision only you can make. I managed to get two out that were
far older (bought a house with old heaters in it) but you may not be so
lucky.

Yes - for the record, I tried it with my 12yo one, figuring I'd replace
the valve with something sane rather than the crap it had (and re-use it
on the eventual replacement), but there was just no way the old one was
coming off without cracking the plastic body.

cheers

Jules

[Ray[_10_]]

Very good chance the dip tube in the cold water inlet has rotted off.

I believe it can be replaced.

If so, only the top few gallons would heat up. This applies to a gas tank,
but not 100 % sure if an electric has a dip tube


"FlaBill" wrote in message
...
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

[Steve Barker[_5_]]

FlaBill wrote:
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill


I'll bet your dip tube on your inlet fitting has broken off. If you
have enough headroom, you can put a new one in.

s

[Red Green]

"Colbyt" wrote in
m:


"FlaBill" wrote in message
.
..
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It
never used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading
element. The heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only
estimate age to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

I agree with the sediment in the bottom. Also quite probable that one
of the two elements has died.

An element replacement does not justify a new heater

Ditto

but 30 years old does in my mind.

Ditto ditto

[Red Green]

Puddin' Man wrote in
:

Others have commented well on tankless.

If you tinker at all, I'd recomend tinker unless you're extremely
pressed for time.

It has a drain spout? Get a pan, drain some to get a handle on
sediment.


30 yrs old.

1. Get a 3ft pipe wrench.
2. For punishment go to 5
3. Whack spout with pipe wrench
4 Shortcut taken so go to 8
5. Open valve with 3ft wrench.
6. After you're done it won't close fully.
7. Use 3ft pipe wrench to attempt removing spout
8. Broken spout at this point.
9. Replace heater.

If it has an anode rod, I'd carefully finesse it out for inspection.

Similar to spout deal.


Etc, etc.

While it's a good candidate for immediate replacement, you don't
really know what the current problem is. It's possible you could get
another 5+ years of use from it. Unless it's extremely inefficient
energy-wise, I'd guess it's worth investigating.

P

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 07:44:03 -0800 (PST), FlaBill
wrote:

Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."



BTW, where is this super senior citzen located? Warning: if you say
anywhere in the house be prepared for a group assault.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 26 2009, 10:44�am, FlaBill wrote:
Lately my hot water cools down before I'm finished showering. It never
used to do this. Wondering if it is a symptom of a fading element. The
heater is a 30gal Ruud Pacemaker Ruudglass but can only estimate age
to be approx. 30yrs.
A tankless heater will be its replacement. Is it time??
Bill

Forget a electric tankless. Unless you want to upgrade your home
electric service to 400 amps, with brand new service very very
expensive. and even then if you live in cold area you may not have hot
enough water.

it takes a lot of electric to heat water in a tankless. since it must
heat water as it flows thru homes plumbing......

your far better off replacing old tank with a new one.

unless you have 5 grand to waste.........