What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and does
get below freezing from time to time.

Hey Keith,

As a rule, any products that are water-base, such as glue, stains, paint, etc. are usually destroyed once they freeze. The thawing process prevents them from recombining back to their original state. Plus, I'm sure heating up and cooling down any wood you have in your shop is reeking havoc with the moisture content of it.

Ed
Boston Accent Furniture

Tired of working for the man?
Turn your woodworking into a full-time income and fire your boss!
Find out how right he
http://bostonaccentfurniture.com/apprentice

"Keith" wrote in message news:1106492054.9a423b701a92b4c1ccbc86a3037f3e46@1 usenet...
What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and does
get below freezing from time to time.

Sheetrock can loosen and cracks form in the mud with temperature extremes.

"Keith" wrote in message
news:1106492054.9a423b701a92b4c1ccbc86a3037f3e46@1 usenet...
What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls
are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of
the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge
vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products
stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop
heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and
does
get below freezing from time to time.


It will ruin the glue (some can take a freeze cycle or two) and most any
water based products. I store all my finishing stuff in the house. I keep
any cordless tool batteries in the house.

Machines are not bothered. I've not had any problems with wood. I tend not
to do any fancy stuff from January to at least mid March though. While I'm
not aware of any wood related problems, I am aware of how I don't like
working in the very cold.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"BAF" wrote in message
...
Hey Keith,

As a rule, any products that are water-base, such as glue, stains, paint,
etc. are usually destroyed once they freeze. The thawing process prevents
them from recombining back to their original state. Plus, I'm sure heating
up and cooling down any wood you have in your shop is reeking havoc with the
moisture content of it.

Won't hurt the wood. Transition times between extremes are short, and wood
can't catch up. Frozen wood won't dry, though.

A trick my father-in-law uses in his shop. Put all of you glues, etc.. into
a small cabinet, also mount a light bulb in the cabinet and leave the light
on. As long as it doesn't get into the negative temps you should be good to
go, at the very least it should keep everything above freezing. The key
here is small cabinet, a light bulb does give off heat but not enough to
heat some the size of a refrigerator. If you have a lot of stuff to
protect either make two small cabinets or go to multiple light bulbs.
Remember to raise everything up off the floor of the cabinet to allow air
flow.

John C

"Keith" wrote in message
news:1106492054.9a423b701a92b4c1ccbc86a3037f3e46@1 usenet...
What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls
are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of
the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge
vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products
stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop
heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and
does
get below freezing from time to time.

Keith wrote:

so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products
stored in the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the
shop heated up in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17
last night and does get below freezing from time to time.

Like everybody else said, don't let your glue and other freezables freeze.
Titebond can take a freeze or two, but many other types of glue will turn
into useless glop immediately after one freeze.

Most everything else should be fine. I haven't been bothering to take in my
finishing materials, and I've had an unheated, freeze-prone shop for a
number of years now. Mineral spirits based stuff will get too cold to work
in freezing temperatures, but it seems to thaw out just fine.
Alcohol-based stuff (ie shellac) doesn't seem to care about being frozen at
all. It needs to be applied above a certain ambient temperature for the
magic to happen, but it doesn't seem to object to being exposed to freezing
temperatures repeatedly. It can also be applied successfully at a much
lower temperature than any other finish I'm aware of, which was one of the
big lures of shellac for me.

I do most of my woodworking when it's hella cold out. Better hella cold
than 120 F, which is where my shop sits in any kind of sunny weather. It's
even gotten into the 80s out there a couple times this winter. I really
need air conditioning.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Biggest worry would be condensation and RUST on your stationary tools

Also, many glues advise NOT to let them freeze, and I would worry
about some of the finishing products as well, might be worth calling
the tech support folks for the products and ask THEM about THEIR
products.

But, MY major worry would be warming the AIR faster than the big hunks
of IRON and getting sweating/condensation and RUST on my tools

John

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:03:43 -0500, Keith
wrote:

What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and does
get below freezing from time to time.

Many thanks for the suggestions and concerns about freezing. Guess I need to
remove those items to the house or rig up a small box the heat.
I'll watch for rust also on some of my new toys(Delta Table saw).


Keith wrote:

What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and does
get below freezing from time to time.

"John" wrote in message
...
Biggest worry would be condensation and RUST on your stationary tools
----snip-------
But, MY major worry would be warming the AIR faster than the big hunks
of IRON and getting sweating/condensation and RUST on my tools

About a week or so it warmed up here to around 65 deg. The sidewalks were
wet with condensation as was the garage floor as was my Unisaw table.
Boeshield didn't help much. I finally had to work off the rust with a 3M
maroon pad on my finishing sander. And then when it got cold again, the
blade crank squeeks when I had to cut some picture frames.

Larry

Keith wrote:

Many thanks for the suggestions and concerns about freezing. Guess I need
to remove those items to the house or rig up a small box the heat.
I'll watch for rust also on some of my new toys(Delta Table saw).

I wouldn't watch for it, I'd try to prevent it proactively. I have an
unheated shop too, and when the conditions are right for rust, rust happens
fast. Overnight things go from clear and shiny to absolutely covered in
rust. Literally overnight. Go out the next morning and "What the hell
happened to my tools?!"

There have been thousands of posts about how to deal with rust on this
newgroup. A brief summary of what works for me is: Johson's paste wax on
all iron/steel surfaces, applied and maintained diligently; and a cheap box
fan keeping the air circulating around. Faster moving air has some effect
on the dingleflootchie manuver or something and somehow magically keeps the
condensation from settling down. Not my idea, and I obviously don't quite
remember how it's supposed to work, but work it does. I don't quite
remember when the conditions are supposed to be ripe for this to happen
either, so I just leave the thing going 24/7. Cheap insurance. I would
probably cry if I woke up one morning to a rusty saw top.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

"snowdog" wrote in message
om...
A trick my father-in-law uses in his shop. Put all of you glues, etc..
into
a small cabinet, also mount a light bulb in the cabinet and leave the
light
on. As long as it doesn't get into the negative temps you should be good
to
go, at the very least it should keep everything above freezing. The key
here is small cabinet, a light bulb does give off heat but not enough to
heat some the size of a refrigerator. If you have a lot of stuff to
protect either make two small cabinets or go to multiple light bulbs.
Remember to raise everything up off the floor of the cabinet to allow air
flow.

John C

That's a good idea that I've used to prevent instrument senders freezing.
Use 2 bulbs though. That way when one blows, you are still protected.

John

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:03:43 -0500, Keith
wrote:

What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and does
get below freezing from time to time.

Keep glue, paint, and finishes from freezing.

"Lawrence L'Hote" wrote in message


I finally had to work off the rust with a 3M
maroon pad on my finishing sander.
Larry



Top Saver. Incredibly good stuff.

"Keith" wrote in message
news:1106492054.9a423b701a92b4c1ccbc86a3037f3e46@1 usenet...
What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls
are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of
the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge
vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products
stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop
heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and
does
get below freezing from time to time.


Don't forget about battery operated tools. Freezing temps aren't great for
batteries.

From the Dewalt Battery FAQ (NiCad):
Does the outside temperature affect batteries? How?
Yes. If the batteries are too hot (1050F or higher) or too cold (below
400F), the batteries will not take a full charge. Attempting to charge
batteries outside the 400F-1050F range can result in a permanent loss of
runtime. When batteries are being charged and discharged a chemical reaction
is taking place, and if it is too hot or cold the chemical reaction is
disturbed causing a loss of runtime.

Tim

Tim wrote:
....
From the Dewalt Battery FAQ (NiCad):
...batteries are too hot (1050F or higher) or too cold (below
400F), the batteries will not take a full charge. Attempting to charge
batteries outside the 400F-1050F range ...

Damn!! That's my problem...I keep trying to use the darn things at room
temps!

(I'm presuming a decimal got dropped in the translation although that
would seem more precise than necessary???)

I'm building a light box now so I'll try to make it big enough for the batteries
to. I'm starting with a 100 watt bulb for now but two 40 watt bulbs may be the
way to go.


"Tim" wrote:


"Keith" wrote in message
news:1106492054.9a423b701a92b4c1ccbc86a3037f3e46@ 1usenet...
What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls
are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of
the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge
vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products
stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop
heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and
does
get below freezing from time to time.


Don't forget about battery operated tools. Freezing temps aren't great for
batteries.

From the Dewalt Battery FAQ (NiCad):
Does the outside temperature affect batteries? How?
Yes. If the batteries are too hot (1050F or higher) or too cold (below
400F), the batteries will not take a full charge. Attempting to charge
batteries outside the 400F-1050F range can result in a permanent loss of
runtime. When batteries are being charged and discharged a chemical reaction
is taking place, and if it is too hot or cold the chemical reaction is
disturbed causing a loss of runtime.

Tim

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Tim wrote:
...
From the Dewalt Battery FAQ (NiCad):
...batteries are too hot (1050F or higher) or too cold (below
400F), the batteries will not take a full charge. Attempting to charge
batteries outside the 400F-1050F range ...

Damn!! That's my problem...I keep trying to use the darn things at room
temps!

(I'm presuming a decimal got dropped in the translation although that
would seem more precise than necessary???)

Yep, the translation to plain text lost the decimals. It should be 105 F or
higher or below 40.0 F. I guess 40.1 is okay...

Tim

A 100 watt light bulb puts off approximately 300 BTU's. If you place
it in the bottom of a closed cabinet that allows some ventilation
between the shelves it is more than enough to keep most water based
woodworking products from freezing.

If you cover the cabinet in one of the construction foam board
materials, it will be even tastier inside. Home Depot and Lowes sell a
small thermostat that plugs into an extension cord or an outlet. You
can then plug a lighting fixture into it. The device will turn on
around 40 degrees and off around 50 degrees F.

Some folks put a thermometer inside the cabinet so that they can
verify that it is warm enough to keep their glue and water-based
materials safe. Also, remember that if the power goes off, that you
might have only a very short time to empty the cabinet and bring the
contents to a location that is above freezing.

Two years ago, one of my friends who went through a seven-day power
outage in January kept his glue and water-based finishes from freezing
by rigging up a Coleman catalytic heater to keep his paint cabinet
from freezing.

The small model runs about 18 hours on a small propane bottle. It did
the trick.



On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:38:49 -0500, Keith
wrote:

I'm building a light box now so I'll try to make it big enough for the batteries
to. I'm starting with a 100 watt bulb for now but two 40 watt bulbs may be the
way to go.


"Tim" wrote:


"Keith" wrote in message
news:1106492054.9a423b701a92b4c1ccbc86a3037f3e46 @1usenet...
What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls
are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of
the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge
vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products
stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop
heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and
does
get below freezing from time to time.


Don't forget about battery operated tools. Freezing temps aren't great for
batteries.

From the Dewalt Battery FAQ (NiCad):
Does the outside temperature affect batteries? How?
Yes. If the batteries are too hot (1050F or higher) or too cold (below
400F), the batteries will not take a full charge. Attempting to charge
batteries outside the 400F-1050F range can result in a permanent loss of
runtime. When batteries are being charged and discharged a chemical reaction
is taking place, and if it is too hot or cold the chemical reaction is
disturbed causing a loss of runtime.

Tim

In article ,
Pete Bucy wrote:
A 100 watt light bulb puts off approximately 300 BTU's. If you place
it in the bottom of a closed cabinet that allows some ventilation
between the shelves it is more than enough to keep most water based
woodworking products from freezing.

I have to point out that the above is utter nonsense. It ain't right,
it ain't wrong. It's a *meaningless* assertation -- too many 'critical
details' left unstated.

How much of a temperature differential between inside the cabinet, and
outside of it, is a function of the thermal transmission characteristics of
the cabinet (i.e. the 'insulation').

_What_ the inside temperature will be is thus a function of both the
transmission characteristics (insulation), *and* the 'outside' temperature.

In "Northern" climes, in a poorly-insulated, free-standing outbuilding, with
even R-19 insulation(say), on the cabinet itself, 100 watts is *not* at all
likely to be adequate under severe conditions. Ditto for an unheated
_attached_ garage.

In extreme environments, I've known folks to use an upright freezer, with
_several_ hundred watts of heating in it. Usually in the form of several
'banks', each of which kick on at slightly lower 'inside' temperatures.

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:03:43 -0500, Keith
wrote:

What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and does
get below freezing from time to time.

This is only the second year that my shop is heated 24/7...although I
only keep it set at 45 degrees ...until I actually walk in the
door...Still evaluating the costs however....Last winter the bill was
about 160 bucks for the winter...not that bad. in my opinion

Prior to that...the last 25 years or so it was completely unheated
until I walked in the door and fired up the Ready heater...smelly
noisy Kero type...

BUT I really never had a problem... rust from condensation being the
biggest problem..especially on stored band saw blades...

I kept my glue etc inside a wall mounted cabinet that I had installed
a single 25 watt light bulb inside ...kept it warm enough so the glue
would not freeze...

Bob Griffiths

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
...
In "Northern" climes, in a poorly-insulated, free-standing outbuilding,
with
even R-19 insulation(say), on the cabinet itself, 100 watts is *not* at
all
likely to be adequate under severe conditions. Ditto for an unheated
_attached_ garage.

In extreme environments, I've known folks to use an upright freezer, with
_several_ hundred watts of heating in it. Usually in the form of several
'banks', each of which kick on at slightly lower 'inside' temperatures.


Of course -20 F isn't extreme, nor is 46 20 north, but a 60 watt bulb keeps
the 1/4 hose to the pressure switch on my pump from freezing inside an
uninsulated, unheated shed if I put a tarp over the pump. If it burns out -
hair dryer time.

Oil-based finishes can suffer coagulation in freezing temperatures, too.
Only things in the garage at my house are a spare 5 gallons of diesel and
gas for the snowblower.

Probably depends on where you live. I live in central Texas and have an
unheated garage that is 9x19. I have 3 100 watt light bulbs that heat the
entire shop on most winter days.

For the cold nights, I turn on one of those electric radiators that has a
"no freeze" thermostat setting. It seems relatively safe and keeps the shop
above 40 degrees without much trouble.

Mark

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Pete Bucy wrote:
A 100 watt light bulb puts off approximately 300 BTU's. If you place
it in the bottom of a closed cabinet that allows some ventilation
between the shelves it is more than enough to keep most water based
woodworking products from freezing.

I have to point out that the above is utter nonsense. It ain't right,
it ain't wrong. It's a *meaningless* assertation -- too many 'critical
details' left unstated.

How much of a temperature differential between inside the cabinet, and
outside of it, is a function of the thermal transmission characteristics
of
the cabinet (i.e. the 'insulation').

_What_ the inside temperature will be is thus a function of both the
transmission characteristics (insulation), *and* the 'outside'
temperature.

In "Northern" climes, in a poorly-insulated, free-standing outbuilding,
with
even R-19 insulation(say), on the cabinet itself, 100 watts is *not* at
all
likely to be adequate under severe conditions. Ditto for an unheated
_attached_ garage.

In extreme environments, I've known folks to use an upright freezer, with
_several_ hundred watts of heating in it. Usually in the form of several
'banks', each of which kick on at slightly lower 'inside' temperatures.

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:03:43 -0500, Keith
wrote:

What is the harm if my wood shop freezes from time to time?
My wood shop is a 20x20 separate building with a concrete floor. The walls are
insulated and covered. The roof is 9 feet and has a pitch of 4 because of the
low snow fall in the area. The roof is still open but doesn't have a ridge vent
so it will hold it somewhat. I have glue and wood finishing products stored in
the shop along with my tools. I use a propane heater to get the shop heated up
in the morning and turn it off at night. It got down to 17 last night and does
get below freezing from time to time.

One other thing that I always worry about is the cords and plastic
casings on cheaper tools. If you've got a rubber cord, it stays
pliable, but when I was moving the weekend before last, my power
strips were so stiff that I could hold them straight out by the end of
the plug, and some of my less expensive tools were having the same
issues. I was very careful packing them, so there wasn't a problem,
but I imagine that if I had tried to use any of them, those cords
would've cracked right open. I also lost a plastic knob on my router
when I set it on the tablesaw- dang thing was so cold that it cracked
right off. While the temp was pretty extreme (-25f), it still would
make a me a little leery of using my tools until they were warmed up
above freezing.


Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

Tim wrote:

batteries outside the 400F-1050F range can result in a permanent loss of

Where are you charging these things? The surface of Venus?

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/