Anyone have any experience using a jointer with a spiral cutterhead? It
looks like they cost about 30-40% more than a knife jointer. Are they worth
the additional expense?

--

"Jeremy" wrote in message
news
Anyone have any experience using a jointer with a spiral cutterhead? It
looks like they cost about 30-40% more than a knife jointer. Are they
worth
the additional expense?

Will you be using the jointer "daily"? No? Probably not worth it unless
you can write it off as a business expense to help offset the additional
cost.

Leon responds:

Jeremy" wrote in message
news
Anyone have any experience using a jointer with a spiral cutterhead? It
looks like they cost about 30-40% more than a knife jointer. Are they
worth
the additional expense?

Will you be using the jointer "daily"? No? Probably not worth it unless
you can write it off as a business expense to help offset the additional
cost.

I've been looking at a Grizzly 8" spiral head for the past couple weeks for an
article. It is about $400 higher than the similar model Grizzly. If I were in
the market for a jointer right now, I think this is the one I'd jump on, or the
12" version. Simple reason: adjusting jointer knives is, at best, a PITA. That
single adjustment creates more problems than any other adjustment in the
woodshop, except for the table saw fence. It is GONE with spiral heads. There
are 40 little carbide teeth with 4 edges each. Simply unscrew, lift, rotate,
and screw back in place. You've got 4 edges before you have to buy a new set,
and the edges are all carbide.

Actually, I had best stop thinking about this before I add another tool....

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer

If you use the Jointer for jointing edges mostly then it's not worth
it.

If you do a lot of break down of rough stock so you're doing face work
all the time it will be better. Especially if you use figured woods. In
the long run, I'd say its worth it just from the maintenance aspect.

Keep in mind however that the segmented spiral heads is somewhat better
than knife blades but not as good as true helical knife. It will not
salve all your chip outs of highly figured wood (dimensional sanding is
a better alternative if you have it as an option for curl, burl, etc).
With segmented spirals, instead of getting the big bang, bang, bang of
a straight knife head you are getting lots of smaller bangs. However
you are not getting a true slicing effect of the helical which is, much
quieter and cleaner.

BW

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Leon responds:

Jeremy" wrote in message
news
Anyone have any experience using a jointer with a spiral cutterhead? It
looks like they cost about 30-40% more than a knife jointer. Are they
worth
the additional expense?

Will you be using the jointer "daily"? No? Probably not worth it unless
you can write it off as a business expense to help offset the additional
cost.

I've been looking at a Grizzly 8" spiral head for the past couple weeks
for an
article. It is about $400 higher than the similar model Grizzly. If I were
in
the market for a jointer right now, I think this is the one I'd jump on,
or the
12" version. Simple reason: adjusting jointer knives is, at best, a PITA.
That
single adjustment creates more problems than any other adjustment in the
woodshop, except for the table saw fence. It is GONE with spiral heads.
There
are 40 little carbide teeth with 4 edges each. Simply unscrew, lift,
rotate,
and screw back in place. You've got 4 edges before you have to buy a new
set,
and the edges are all carbide.

Actually, I had best stop thinking about this before I add another
tool....

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable."
Eric
Hoffer



Not to have to deal with the jointer knifes anymore is one of the biggest
reasons for considering the spiral cutterhead. This is for a home shop and 4
edges would keep me in fresh cuts for a long time. I was also looking at the
Grizzly jointers. Torn between the 6 inch anniversary model G0526 and the 8
inch G0543. $345 difference. The 12 inch is too big for me in price and
size.

What about the quality of the cut. Are the results better, worse or the same
with a spiral cutter as compared to knives?

Thanks for your input.

Jeremy

Jeremy wrote:
[snip]
Not to have to deal with the jointer knifes anymore is one of the biggest
reasons for considering the spiral cutterhead. This is for a home shop and 4
edges would keep me in fresh cuts for a long time. I was also looking at the
Grizzly jointers. Torn between the 6 inch anniversary model G0526 and the 8
inch G0543. $345 difference. The 12 inch is too big for me in price and
size.

What about the quality of the cut. Are the results better, worse or the same
with a spiral cutter as compared to knives?

Thanks for your input.

Jeremy


I have the G0500 with standard knives. I spent the extra for the 8"
over the 6" but couldn't quit pry the wallet open that extra bit for the
spiral. Having also owned a 6", the first time you face joint that 6
1/2" piece makes it all worth while.
mahalo,
jo4hn

Jeremy wrote:
....
...jointers. Torn between the 6 inch anniversary model G0526 and the 8
inch G0543. $345 difference. The 12 inch is too big for me in price and
size.

There's no size jointer too big... Cost, maybe...

I'd say you'll more than be glad you bit the bullet and went with an 8"
every time you use it...not only the width but the extra table length is
maybe of even more value and it's there on every cut...


What about the quality of the cut. Are the results better, worse or the same
with a spiral cutter as compared to knives?

Assuming they're equal quality knives and within tolerances, the spiral
cut will be better in figured and curly, difficult woods
particularly...I've not used the multi-tooth, but have used the
skew-mounted solid knives w/ planers -- just like a hand plane, the
slicing action makes a big difference.

I have the 8" spiral and 6" straight. IMHO the spiral is worth the
money for two reasons:

1. Easier to manage the cutters (replace, adjust, etc).

2. For face jointing wide boards, the machine "feels" smoother, which
for me means a gentler hold, less stress on me, more focus on
making the wood do what I want, etc.

As for surface quality, it's a close call for common woods. The
straight leaves a washboard, the spiral leaves the occasional (and
mostly invisible) fence-parallel lines (where the corners of the
cutters are). I think the spiral results are better, and easier to
clean up with a scraper when needed.

The 8" spiral seems quieter, but that might be because it's bigger and
not because of the spiral cutter.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
news:20041221130406.06002.00001557@mb-



Actually, I had best stop thinking about this before I add another
tool....

LOL.. Keep talking...




Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable."
Eric
Hoffer

Only reason I have not jumped on the Griz jointer with spiral head is
that the cutting edges are NOT really producing a spiral/angled
cutting edge, the inserts still have their cutting edge at 90degrees
to the wood feed direction.

Really feel that other than ease of replacing the knives, that the
Grizz is NOT going to cut BETTER than the standard with straight
blades.

It is cheaper to go the route Grizzly has in this situation instead of
producing a TRUE spiral/helical cutting head

I can get a TRUE helical head for a Delta DJ20 for about $400, and
that may be the best solution.

John

On 21 Dec 2004 10:41:45 -0800, "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:

If you use the Jointer for jointing edges mostly then it's not worth
it.

If you do a lot of break down of rough stock so you're doing face work
all the time it will be better. Especially if you use figured woods. In
the long run, I'd say its worth it just from the maintenance aspect.

Keep in mind however that the segmented spiral heads is somewhat better
than knife blades but not as good as true helical knife. It will not
salve all your chip outs of highly figured wood (dimensional sanding is
a better alternative if you have it as an option for curl, burl, etc).
With segmented spirals, instead of getting the big bang, bang, bang of
a straight knife head you are getting lots of smaller bangs. However
you are not getting a true slicing effect of the helical which is, much
quieter and cleaner.

BW

I can get a TRUE helical head for a Delta DJ20 for about $400, and
that may be the best solution.

John

I'm intrigued.
How? where? whom do I write the check out to?

Russ

Look at www.byrdtool.com for true helical cutter heads and pricing

I am pretty sure the head for the DJ20 was around $400 - just checked
and I was wrong, it is $449


John

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:07:25 GMT, "Daddyman"
wrote:


I can get a TRUE helical head for a Delta DJ20 for about $400, and
that may be the best solution.



I'm intrigued.
How? where? whom do I write the check out to?

Russ

Cool. Thank you for the info.

Russ

"John" wrote in message
...
Look at www.byrdtool.com for true helical cutter heads and pricing

I am pretty sure the head for the DJ20 was around $400 - just checked
and I was wrong, it is $449


John

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:07:25 GMT, "Daddyman"
wrote:


I can get a TRUE helical head for a Delta DJ20 for about $400, and
that may be the best solution.



I'm intrigued.
How? where? whom do I write the check out to?

Russ

John wrote:

Only reason I have not jumped on the Griz jointer with spiral head is
that the cutting edges are NOT really producing a spiral/angled
cutting edge, the inserts still have their cutting edge at 90degrees
to the wood feed direction.

Really feel that other than ease of replacing the knives, that the
Grizz is NOT going to cut BETTER than the standard with straight
blades.

It is cheaper to go the route Grizzly has in this situation instead of
producing a TRUE spiral/helical cutting head

....

The difference in performance is that the smaller knives are staggered
and so have partially the effect of a true helical knife. The result
is, as someone else already posted, in between that of a straight knife
and helical. There is a difference also that there will be a surface
pattern left that shows at least some hint of the separate knives. How
much depends on how reproducible the head mounting and knives are.

One disadvantage I see is that the replacement cost is quite high for a
complete set when it does come eventually. The good thing is that
hopefully the quality of the inserts are such they will last a long
time...

I saw a demo at Atlanta on some highly figured stock...it did seem to
help. I also agree that for most work the slightly lower effort is for
the most part the only real advantage

Duane Bozarth notes:


One disadvantage I see is that the replacement cost is quite high for a
complete set when it does come eventually. The good thing is that
hopefully the quality of the inserts are such they will last a long
time...

With the Grizzly, you're looking at $80 for 40 carbide inserts. The same
machine, with its four knife cutterhead, costs about $50, IIRC, to replace the
HSS knives. Hit a nail with that four knife head and you've probably eaten all
four knives. Hit a nail with the spiral head and you will probably eat four or
five or even six or seven inserts. Inserts sell for 20 bucks a ten pack.

I'd guesstimate that the carbide insert sets should last about as long as at
least four HSS knife sets, so the replacement cost actually appears fairly
cheap to me. Depending on carbide quality and luck, the inserts could last ten
times as long, which means you'd almost certainly have to replace, rather than
sharpen, the knives twice over the same period.

Charlie Self
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." George Orwell

That's a heck of an argument for the investment in the spiral head cutter

It also does not take into account the fact the regular wear on knives is
likely to be rather uneven (assuming that you are like me and don't
religiously move the fence postion back and forth.)

-Steve



"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Duane Bozarth notes:


One disadvantage I see is that the replacement cost is quite high for a
complete set when it does come eventually. The good thing is that
hopefully the quality of the inserts are such they will last a long
time...

With the Grizzly, you're looking at $80 for 40 carbide inserts. The same
machine, with its four knife cutterhead, costs about $50, IIRC, to replace
the
HSS knives. Hit a nail with that four knife head and you've probably eaten
all
four knives. Hit a nail with the spiral head and you will probably eat
four or
five or even six or seven inserts. Inserts sell for 20 bucks a ten pack.

I'd guesstimate that the carbide insert sets should last about as long as
at
least four HSS knife sets, so the replacement cost actually appears fairly
cheap to me. Depending on carbide quality and luck, the inserts could last
ten
times as long, which means you'd almost certainly have to replace, rather
than
sharpen, the knives twice over the same period.

Charlie Self
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." George
Orwell

Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth notes:


One disadvantage I see is that the replacement cost is quite high for a
complete set when it does come eventually. The good thing is that
hopefully the quality of the inserts are such they will last a long
time...

With the Grizzly, you're looking at $80 for 40 carbide inserts. The same
machine, with its four knife cutterhead, costs about $50, IIRC, to replace the
HSS knives. ...

The particular set of heads I remembered seeing weren't Grizzly. The
individual inserts were roughly the same price but there were something
like 128 or so altogether, so the total replacement would be $320.
That, of course, isn't too terribly far removed from what a set of solid
carbide knives of equivalent total length would be. It is true you do
have a better chance of knicking only a subset, I grant, and again,
assuming the carbide is good quality, they should last a long time as I
noted...

But, I think you read more negative into my previous post than was
really intended...

"Stephen M" writes:
It also does not take into account the fact the regular wear on
knives is likely to be rather uneven (assuming that you are like me
and don't religiously move the fence postion back and forth.)

Replacement of the carbide cutters doesn't have to be even either.
Just replace the ones that need it.

"Stephen M" writes:
It also does not take into account the fact the regular wear on
knives is likely to be rather uneven (assuming that you are like me
and don't religiously move the fence postion back and forth.)

Replacement of the carbide cutters doesn't have to be even either.
Just replace the ones that need it.

That was my point, which I did not do a very good job of making.

Thanks for saying it better.

Stephen M wrote:

"Stephen M" writes:
It also does not take into account the fact the regular wear on
knives is likely to be rather uneven (assuming that you are like me
and don't religiously move the fence postion back and forth.)

Replacement of the carbide cutters doesn't have to be even either.
Just replace the ones that need it.

That was my point, which I did not do a very good job of making.

I've been being jumped on pretty good here for something I didn't
say...I didn't say the all had to be replaced at once, I simply
commented that when replacement does eventually happen, the total cost
of a replacement set isn't cheap...

The four-sided design will extend life and the segmented design does
allow for a chipped group to be replaced, but by comparison a solid
carbide knife can be resharpened whereas a given edge on these can't.
One can also hone a carbide knife w/ diamond in between professional
sharpenings and get a nicer edge for that "special" cut which would be a
practical impossibility w/ the inserts.

You'all are misreading/misinterpreting what I've saying here...I don't
have anything particularly against the segmented heads but don't think
the overall cost of knives will be that much less than solid carbide
(except if you do hit stuff with yours fairly often which I'm careful to
not do...if I have old material I use a set of old knives)...

How well these work for the long run will be interesting to see w/
time...

Duane Bozarth responds:

You'all are misreading/misinterpreting what I've saying here...I don't
have anything particularly against the segmented heads but don't think
the overall cost of knives will be that much less than solid carbide
(except if you do hit stuff with yours fairly often which I'm careful to
not do...if I have old material I use a set of old knives)...

How well these work for the long run will be interesting to see w/
time.

Personally, I believe that the cost of the segments will be less, overall, then
the cost of HSS knives, and far less than carbide knives. There are advantages
to the HSS--a better edge being the major one, added to lower start-up cost.
The carbide knives can be sharpened, but not in most hobby shops (also a
problem with any jointer knives over 6" long). The use of old knives with old
wood is a good idea, but think of the extra set-up time needed. And what
happens if you only have one set of old knives, and hit a hardened nail or two
right off the bat.

I'm stuck with HSS knives for the foreseeable future, but somewhere down the
road, I'd surely love to have an 8 or 12" spiral head jointer. And about 80
extra segments.


Charlie Self
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." George Orwell

Charlie Self wrote:

....
Personally, I believe that the cost of the segments will be less, overall, then
the cost of HSS knives, and far less than carbide knives.

That would seem difficult to achieve, but will undoubtedly depend very
heavily on the type/extent of usage....if you use it for man-made
materials, yes I can believe it...

....
....The use of old knives with old
wood is a good idea, but think of the extra set-up time needed.

It takes very little time actually w/ a jig and the leveling screw
system of the Delta jointer head once you get relatively proficient.
And, for reclaiming old material, I have two other practices tha keep it
from being particularly slow...first, I don't worry about getting the
knives aligned "gnat's ass"--close enough is ok, and second, I only do
the change out if there's a significant amount of material at
hand...otherwise I either clean it up enough to be safe or don't use the
good toolset...

...And what
happens if you only have one set of old knives, and hit a hardened nail or two
right off the bat.

Far better than if those were your only good knives...

I'm stuck with HSS knives for the foreseeable future, but somewhere down the
road, I'd surely love to have an 8 or 12" spiral head jointer. And about 80
extra segments.

I bit the bullet, so to speak and bought a set of solid carbide knives a
long time ago...they've been resharpened several times so far, and as I
say I re-hone them manually on occasion...it doesn't really put an edge
on them but does clean up the edge sufficiently they work much better
and it lasts quite some time.

I also have two sets of HSS knives -- one for use while the carbide are
at the sharpener's or if I need a really sharp edge for a special
piece of material. The other set is the old "rough 'n ready" set that I
keep moderately sharp but that does have a knick or two...

I have an ancient 8" Delta salvaged from a junior high shop that was,
sadly allowed to be nearly destroyed by a group of young hoodlums...I've
restored it to excellent working condition although it remains somewhat
ugly and is missing things like the depth scale pointer, logos etc.,
that the kids tore up...