The latest honey-do is two sets of Barrister bookcases (three cases next to
two cases side by side two sets of each) to be made from cherry.
I have begun making wide boards from skinny ones (g) and have 3 sets of
plans (magazine how-to's).
Problem is they all are designed to be against the wall and SWMBO wants
these to act as a sort of room divider, both sides visible.
The plans all call for 1/4" plywood backs (and I have no 1/4" cherry ply,
nor any easily accessible) but I have a pretty good supply of rough sawn
cherry.
Question is whether I should go thru the trouble of making a laminated back
(re-saw, join for two sides of 1/4 birch ply, etc.) or simply use solid wood
(MUCH faster!)... if so eye appeal suggests the grain run vertically to
match the sides, but that means edge mating a fair number of narrow boards
to arrive at the 34-35" width of the bookcases.
It also suggests a far greater range of seasonal movement as compared to
running the grain perpendicular to the shelves.
What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid into
dadoes.
Thanks in advance,
Tom

"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message
...
The latest honey-do is two sets of Barrister bookcases (three cases next
to two cases side by side two sets of each) to be made from cherry.
I have begun making wide boards from skinny ones (g) and have 3 sets of
plans (magazine how-to's).
Problem is they all are designed to be against the wall and SWMBO wants
these to act as a sort of room divider, both sides visible.
The plans all call for 1/4" plywood backs (and I have no 1/4" cherry ply,
nor any easily accessible) but I have a pretty good supply of rough sawn
cherry.
Question is whether I should go thru the trouble of making a laminated
back (re-saw, join for two sides of 1/4 birch ply, etc.) or simply use
solid wood (MUCH faster!)... if so eye appeal suggests the grain run
vertically to match the sides, but that means edge mating a fair number of
narrow boards to arrive at the 34-35" width of the bookcases.
It also suggests a far greater range of seasonal movement as compared to
running the grain perpendicular to the shelves.
What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid
into dadoes.
Thanks in advance,
Tom

Tom:
It appears that both sides of the cases will be visible, and seeing the back
side of a case is not the most esthetically satisfying setup. If you must
show the back side, I'd vote for edge gluing to get the 34-35" width for the
panels. It means a lot more work in matching the vertical grain, but it will
make the best of an unusual situation.
As alternatives, why not make the cases double thick, with glass doors on
each side, or make twice as many...8-)... and place them back-to-back, or
make them as designed and place an open bookcase, plant shelf, knickknack
shelf, etc. against the back side?

Bob

It also suggests a far greater range of seasonal movement as compared to
running the grain perpendicular to the shelves.
What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid
into
dadoes.
Thanks in advance,
Tom


Hi Tom,



I recently fixed an old book case with a back made from roughly 1/4" pine.
The back is about 36" wide and 40" tall. It had shrunk over the years in
width by 1/2 to 3/4 ".

After cutting out the broken piece, I inserted a new piece of pine which
went much easier then expected (just had to slightly clamp it on a flat
surface before applying pressure over the width).

So gluing-up the wide back in solid wood should not cause a problem.

Anyhow, watching the amount of shrinkage over that width would make me split
the back into half and have a support in the middle of the bookcase rebated
on both sides to allow for movement of the back.



Have fun



Matthias

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:51:19 -0500, "Thomas Bunetta"
wrote:

What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid into
dadoes.

I would run the grain horizontal, but do raised panels if you're going
to use solid wood.


-Leuf

Gluing up a solid back could very well resort in problems due to seasonal changes in the width of the back. If you have never built a raised panel door and are not tooled for the task, you may want to consider going with a flat panel approach with mortise and tenons. Make sure that the panels are not glued into the frame, so they can expand and contract. You may even want to pre-finish the panels.

Good luck!

Thomas Bunetta wrote:

The latest honey-do is two sets of Barrister bookcases (three cases next
to
two cases side by side two sets of each) to be made Birchherry.
I have begun making wide boards from skinny ones (g) and have 3 sets of
plans (magazine how-to's).
Problem is they all are designed to be against the wall and SWMBO wants
these to act as a sort of room divider, both sides visible.
The plans all call for 1/4" plywood backs (and I have no 1/4" cherry ply,
nor any easily accessible) but I have a pretty good supply of rough sawn
cherry.
Question is whether I should go thru the trouble of making a laminated
back (re-saw, join for two sides of 1/4 birch ply, etc.) or simply use
solid wood (MUCH faster!)... if so eye appeal suggests the grain run
vertically to match the sides, but that means edge mating a fair number of
narrow boards to arrive at the 34-35" width of the bookcases.
It also suggests a far greater range of seasonal movement as compared to
running the grain perpendicular to the shelves.
What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid
into dadoes.
Thanks in advance,
Tom

why put a back on it at all?
put a small 1/4 or so lip on both sides of the bottom shelf and put boos in
from both sides, or build 2 books cases back to back, also from what I
understand if you put a cherry stain on Birch it comes very close to
looking like cherry or birch plywood may be a thought

I would use either vertical shiplaped boards (1/8" space) or frame and
panel. Either would be historically correct and pleasing to the eye.

--
Alan Bierbaum

Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Current project: http://home.comcast.net/~cabierbaum/

"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message
...
SNIP
Question is whether I should go thru the trouble of making a laminated
back (re-saw, join for two sides of 1/4 birch ply, etc.) or simply use
solid wood (MUCH faster!)... if so eye appeal suggests the grain run
vertically to match the sides, but that means edge mating a fair number of
narrow boards to arrive at the 34-35" width of the bookcases.
It also suggests a far greater range of seasonal movement as compared to
running the grain perpendicular to the shelves.
What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid
into dadoes.
Thanks in advance,
Tom

"Matthias Mühe" wrote in message
...
snip
Hi Tom,



I recently fixed an old book case with a back made from roughly 1/4"
pine.
The back is about 36" wide and 40" tall. It had shrunk over the years in
width by 1/2 to 3/4 ".

After cutting out the broken piece, I inserted a new piece of pine which
went much easier then expected (just had to slightly clamp it on a flat
surface before applying pressure over the width).

So gluing-up the wide back in solid wood should not cause a problem.

Anyhow, watching the amount of shrinkage over that width would make me
split
the back into half and have a support in the middle of the bookcase
rebated
on both sides to allow for movement of the back.

Hi Matthias,

I plan to look up the tangential shrinkage for cherry (proper term?) and
would accomodate with a deep enough dado and a wide enough edge (raised
panel) or if suggested below I go shiplapped (still thinking how best to
impliment that one) leave enough wood so annual changes will not show. The
pieces will be pre-finished (planning on a wash coat of super blonde
shellac, tung oil and either more shellac or possibly the mix DJM touts so
highly) so expantion and contraction won't reveal unfinished wood.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Tom

Thanks for your input,
Tom

I'm equipped to make raised panels (and have made a few)... I will need to
look up the expansion -contraction rates for cherry to make proper
allowances.
Your suggestion of pre-finishing is a given.
Thanks for your help,
Tom
"makesawdust" wrote in message
...

Leuf Wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:51:19 -0500, "Thomas Bunetta"
wrote:
-
What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid
into
dadoes.-

I would run the grain horizontal, but do raised panels if you're going
to use solid wood.


-Leuf

Gluing up a solid back could very well resort in problems due to
seasonal changes in the width of the back. If you have never built a
raised panel door and are not tooled for the task, you may want to
consider going with a flat panel approach with mortise and tenons.
Make sure that the panels are not glued into the frame, so they can
expand and contract. You may even want to pre-finish the panels.

Good luck!


--
makesawdust

"Richard Clements" wrote in message
...
Thomas Bunetta wrote:
snip why put a back on it at all?
put a small 1/4 or so lip on both sides of the bottom shelf and put boos
in
from both sides, or build 2 books cases back to back, also from what I
understand if you put a cherry stain on Birch it comes very close to
looking like cherry or birch plywood may be a thought

You don't know my SWMBO!
One of the designs is for frame and panel ends... one look and she exclaimed
"I don't want to dust all those edges!!!"
Made my life easier! BG
The back must be enclosed, wood, glass or something!
The width of a double unit is not feasible due to space limitations.
I'd thought about trying to stain birch ply, but then I'd have to (shudder)
stain Cherry gasp...
If I did that, every Klown Hammer from the Cabal would smite me and the
Ghost of Paully Rad would forever haunt me!
Thanks for your assistance,
Tom

"Alan Bierbaum" wrote in message
...
I would use either vertical shiplaped boards (1/8" space) or frame and
panel. Either would be historically correct and pleasing to the eye.

--
Alan Bierbaum

Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Current project: http://home.comcast.net/~cabierbaum/
snipped
Hi Alan,
The shiplapped idea had not occured to me, Thanks!
If frame and panel, vertical or horizontal grain?
Thanks for sharing,
Tom

Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 8:51am (Thomas=A0Bunetta) wonders:
snip if so eye appeal suggests the grain run vertically to match the
sides, snip

The Woodworking Gods can't find that in any rule they wrote. They
also say you could probably have the side grain run horizontally too, if
matching was so important. Personally, I think vertical sides, and
horizontal back would look fine.

They also can't find any rule they wrote that says you have to make
the whole thing out of just one kind of wood. Besides, it's cherry, so
your gonna paint it anyway, right?



JOAT
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont
matter, and those who matter dont mind.
- Dr Seuss

Frame and panel is the way to go on this. The Barrister type books
case designs are from late 19th early 20th century originally. The
ole' Stickley boys used frame and panel interchangably with solid
sides/backs on all case work. In fact many designs could be ordered
either way so you can stay true to the design no prob.

Do flat panels with just a single center stile. It will be fun to
resaw some of that Cherry and plane it out nice and flat. You might
try and use some similar dimensions for the rail and stiles as you use
for the glass fram on the front. However, if the design you have has
really small frame pieces just pick some bigger width.

You can also match the rail/stile details to those on the glass front
frame. For instance, if the frame has a round over or chamfer relief,
do something similar on the frame.

The frame and panel also gives a much more appealing look with all the
shadows, etc, versus a three stack of cases that look like a fence or
a retaining wall with just plain wood slats.

BW
"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message ...
The latest honey-do is two sets of Barrister bookcases (three cases next to
two cases side by side two sets of each) to be made from cherry.
I have begun making wide boards from skinny ones (g) and have 3 sets of
plans (magazine how-to's).
Problem is they all are designed to be against the wall and SWMBO wants
these to act as a sort of room divider, both sides visible.
The plans all call for 1/4" plywood backs (and I have no 1/4" cherry ply,
nor any easily accessible) but I have a pretty good supply of rough sawn
cherry.
Question is whether I should go thru the trouble of making a laminated back
(re-saw, join for two sides of 1/4 birch ply, etc.) or simply use solid wood
(MUCH faster!)... if so eye appeal suggests the grain run vertically to
match the sides, but that means edge mating a fair number of narrow boards
to arrive at the 34-35" width of the bookcases.
It also suggests a far greater range of seasonal movement as compared to
running the grain perpendicular to the shelves.
What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid into
dadoes.
Thanks in advance,
Tom

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:26:18 -0500, "Thomas Bunetta"
wrote:

Hi Leuf,
A curiosity... do you think the horizontal grain would look as good as
vertical (it would be a lot easier, and shrinkage and expantion will be
reduced due to narrower tangential cross section.

I think that the grain usually runs vertically simply because panels
are usually longer vertically. Consider the other pieces in the
room. If it's going to be adjacent to something else with the grain
going vertically I might convince myself it was worth matching it, but
I think I would break up the panels with one or more stiles. I think
that might end up looking too busy though, on top of being a heckuva
lot more work and I would have talked myself back into going
horizontal.

Or perhaps you could leave the backs unfinished and make a free
standing room divider to put behind them. Could end up being more
useful down the road if you rearrange things at some point.


-Leuf

snip
They also can't find any rule they wrote that says you have to make
the whole thing out of just one kind of wood. Besides, it's cherry, so
your gonna paint it anyway, right?



Jeez JOAT, you REALLY like to tempt the Woodworking Gods, don't you G
Tom

Hi,
How about mail-ordering some cherry veneer? Make a nice book-matched
panel for the back of each bookcase.
Lewis

Traditional panel would be vertical grain. However, this also
typiciall assumes the panel has a vertically longer aspect ratio.

Earlier I suggested one center stile. I thought about that later and
here is more astehetic (sp?) input.

If you go to a single center stile, you "could" make it 1.5-to-2x the
width of the side stiles. To be really accurate you should use the
golden ration of 1.6 something. Or you could break up the back into
three panels, then use the same width for all 5 stiles.

BW


"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message ...
"Alan Bierbaum" wrote in message
...
I would use either vertical shiplaped boards (1/8" space) or frame and
panel. Either would be historically correct and pleasing to the eye.

--
Alan Bierbaum

Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Current project: http://home.comcast.net/~cabierbaum/
snipped
Hi Alan,
The shiplapped idea had not occured to me, Thanks!
If frame and panel, vertical or horizontal grain?
Thanks for sharing,
Tom

Hi Bill,
Thanks for thinking about this!
A friend suggested I match up enough boards (5-7" in length) to "slice off"
the smaller widths which would then be vertically aligned and "flow" from
one case to the other. (Much easier than all those separate glue ups.)
What'cha think?
Thanks,
Tom
"Bill Wallace" wrote in message
om...
Traditional panel would be vertical grain. However, this also
typiciall assumes the panel has a vertically longer aspect ratio.

Earlier I suggested one center stile. I thought about that later and
here is more astehetic (sp?) input.

If you go to a single center stile, you "could" make it 1.5-to-2x the
width of the side stiles. To be really accurate you should use the
golden ration of 1.6 something. Or you could break up the back into
three panels, then use the same width for all 5 stiles.

BW


"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message
...
"Alan Bierbaum" wrote in message
...
I would use either vertical shiplaped boards (1/8" space) or frame and
panel. Either would be historically correct and pleasing to the eye.

--
Alan Bierbaum

Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Current project: http://home.comcast.net/~cabierbaum/
snipped
Hi Alan,
The shiplapped idea had not occured to me, Thanks!
If frame and panel, vertical or horizontal grain?
Thanks for sharing,
Tom

Wed, Dec 1, 2004, 8:41am (Thomas=A0Bunetta) says:
Jeez JOAT, you REALLY like to tempt the Woodworking Gods, don't you G
Tom

Hey, they're the ones who wanted the pink paint. I finally got
them talked into yellow.



JOAT
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont
matter, and those who matter dont mind.
- Dr Seuss

Thomas,

Thanks for the link regarding the mortise & tenon jig.

Regarding your barrister cases I would recommend you do as others have
suggested and make a frame back and use either shiplap or a solid
panel within the frame. Depending on your equipment surfacing the
solid panels may be a hassle but it can be done without a widebelt or
drum sander if you have the time.

Remember you can make the back frames with the same setups as your
doors so that would help the workflow.

The frame/panel would look great and I think even if you did loose
shiplap withing the frame it still would have a nice look, albeit a
bit less common than a raised or flat panel. However if you can
source some 1/4" cherry furniture grade ply for the flat panels you
would save yourself a lot of time.

Sanding glue-ups is no picnic with small power tools, it can be done
with hand planes but pretty frustrating unless you have well tuned
planes and a nice solid bench. Otherwise you'll chatter and tear out
even your friendly cherry.

But if time isn't an issue then turn on the radio, sharpen your planes
and enjoy yourself.




"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message ...
The latest honey-do is two sets of Barrister bookcases (three cases next to
two cases side by side two sets of each) to be made from cherry.
I have begun making wide boards from skinny ones (g) and have 3 sets of
plans (magazine how-to's).
Problem is they all are designed to be against the wall and SWMBO wants
these to act as a sort of room divider, both sides visible.
The plans all call for 1/4" plywood backs (and I have no 1/4" cherry ply,
nor any easily accessible) but I have a pretty good supply of rough sawn
cherry.
Question is whether I should go thru the trouble of making a laminated back
(re-saw, join for two sides of 1/4 birch ply, etc.) or simply use solid wood
(MUCH faster!)... if so eye appeal suggests the grain run vertically to
match the sides, but that means edge mating a fair number of narrow boards
to arrive at the 34-35" width of the bookcases.
It also suggests a far greater range of seasonal movement as compared to
running the grain perpendicular to the shelves.
What'cha think... Laminate, vertical or horizontal grain? BTW I'm
envisioning a frame and panel type placement, with the back panel slid into
dadoes.
Thanks in advance,
Tom

You're welcome...
Fortunately there is a Performax 22-44 out in the shop, although I need to
re-adjust for parallel (why do machines change over time?).
I may call around to some local cabinet shops to see if any of the plywood
you mention is available.
Thanks for your input,
Tom
"FreeState" wrote in message
om...
Thomas,

Thanks for the link regarding the mortise & tenon jig.

Regarding your barrister cases I would recommend you do as others have
suggested and make a frame back and use either shiplap or a solid
panel within the frame. Depending on your equipment surfacing the
solid panels may be a hassle but it can be done without a widebelt or
drum sander if you have the time.

Remember you can make the back frames with the same setups as your
doors so that would help the workflow.

The frame/panel would look great and I think even if you did loose
shiplap withing the frame it still would have a nice look, albeit a
bit less common than a raised or flat panel. However if you can
source some 1/4" cherry furniture grade ply for the flat panels you
would save yourself a lot of time.

Sanding glue-ups is no picnic with small power tools, it can be done
with hand planes but pretty frustrating unless you have well tuned
planes and a nice solid bench. Otherwise you'll chatter and tear out
even your friendly cherry.

But if time isn't an issue then turn on the radio, sharpen your planes
and enjoy yourself.

Hi Larry!
Your ideas sound beautiful... I don't know if my skills are up to them :(.
This hobby continues to stretch my few remaining gray cells as it is G
Tom
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:54:50 -0500, "Thomas Bunetta"
spake the words:
snip OK, how about butting a 3/4" solid-edged, inlay-patterned, cherry
plywood panel to the back of each vertical set, perhaps held by pocket
screws from the inside? That would give you a gorgeous back and lend
even more stability to the cases. The inlay could be something
suggested by the room it will face. Or maybe a proud-surfaced intarsia
look would be more to your or her liking. Either way, it would be a
replaceable look which could change as you wanted it to.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure I completly follow but I think I do. If you are saying you'll
use vertical aligned boards across the back and cut them so the board
on the top case is cut from the same piece as the piece on the case
below, etc so if you stack the cases in the proper order you can see
the grain lines match up, that is brilliant.

I built a really big (ugly) all Oak piece on contract for some real
estate office that had a hug top 3' wide by 8' long. On the front it
had a set of legal file drawers on each side and a double set of doors
at the center, typical FF construction. For the top I built a frame,
with cross members aligned witth the front (and back) stiles. Then I
floated some MDF in the frame, layed in 1/4" oak ply and trimed each
panel where it met the frame with a 1/8" wide Cherry inlay, so while
it looked a bit like frame and panel it was all sanded flush.

All that being said to indicate that the only pride I got out of the
design was that I sliced the 3 inlayed oak panels for the top all from
the same piece of ply, and I also calculated and cut out the gap for
the stiles and cherry inlay. It relly looked cool because you could
really tell it was from one piece. I think if I just cut it in three
pieces, then laid them in 3-4" apart, the grain cathederals wouldn't
have flowed nearly as nice.

You should do the same with your vertical pieces (if I followed
correctly), figure out the exact distance between the visible portions
of the boards accounting for the top and bottom of each case (and any
feet, etc) and cut that much out of each piecs so it truly looks
continuous, just having some portions hidden in a sense.

Follow?

"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message ...
Hi Bill,
Thanks for thinking about this!
A friend suggested I match up enough boards (5-7" in length) to "slice off"
the smaller widths which would then be vertically aligned and "flow" from
one case to the other. (Much easier than all those separate glue ups.)
What'cha think?
Thanks,
Tom
"Bill Wallace" wrote in message
om...
Traditional panel would be vertical grain. However, this also
typiciall assumes the panel has a vertically longer aspect ratio.

Earlier I suggested one center stile. I thought about that later and
here is more astehetic (sp?) input.

If you go to a single center stile, you "could" make it 1.5-to-2x the
width of the side stiles. To be really accurate you should use the
golden ration of 1.6 something. Or you could break up the back into
three panels, then use the same width for all 5 stiles.

BW


"Thomas Bunetta" wrote in message
...
"Alan Bierbaum" wrote in message
...
I would use either vertical shiplaped boards (1/8" space) or frame and
panel. Either would be historically correct and pleasing to the eye.

--
Alan Bierbaum

Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Current project: http://home.comcast.net/~cabierbaum/
snipped
Hi Alan,
The shiplapped idea had not occured to me, Thanks!
If frame and panel, vertical or horizontal grain?
Thanks for sharing,
Tom

On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 05:51:14 -0500, "Thomas Bunetta"
spake the words:

Hi Larry!
Your ideas sound beautiful... I don't know if my skills are up to them :(.

Skills? What are those? Just Do It! Use thicker inlay resawn
from your own wood. That flimsy veneer stuff they sell is way
too finicky for the likes of us. Resaw to 1/2", inlay 7/16",
and plane/scrape/sand to suit.


This hobby continues to stretch my few remaining gray cells as it is G

As it should.


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:54:50 -0500, "Thomas Bunetta"
spake the words:
snip OK, how about butting a 3/4" solid-edged, inlay-patterned, cherry
plywood panel to the back of each vertical set, perhaps held by pocket
screws from the inside? That would give you a gorgeous back and lend
even more stability to the cases. The inlay could be something
suggested by the room it will face. Or maybe a proud-surfaced intarsia
look would be more to your or her liking. Either way, it would be a
replaceable look which could change as you wanted it to.
-------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------
-- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. --
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
================================================== ==========

"Bill Wallace" wrote in message
om...
Not sure I completly follow but I think I do. If you are saying you'll
use vertical aligned boards across the back and cut them so the board
on the top case is cut from the same piece as the piece on the case
below, etc so if you stack the cases in the proper order you can see
the grain lines match up, that is brilliant.
snipped

You got it exactly! I think this will provide an esthetically pleasing
appearance while reducing the number of glue ups necessary to cover all
those backs!
Tom