According to Bosch http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tool...31&I=55110&T=1.
the 4412 is made in Taiwan. I was just about to spend a serious chunk of money on one when I noticed
the CoE while checking on the weight. I'd presumed it was Swiss - and only a one year warranty. Is the
one year standard for tools these days? And do I care where it's made if it says Bosch on the label?

Inquiring minds want to know.
thanks
Nigel

Generally speaking, Taiwanese quality is pretty darn good. Not to be
confused with China, the quality there is sometimes okay, functional
anyway.

In theory, Bosch sets the specs and tolerances for thier tools,
shouldn't matter too much where they are made. The reality is- it
does matter.

I'm glad most of my stuff (Delta) is pre-china. Except my dril press.
I am not fond of that drill press. Just doesn't have the same feel as
my band saw and table saw, both older models.

-Dan V.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:33:38 -0500, Nigel Burnett
wrote:

According to Bosch http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tool...31&I=55110&T=1.
the 4412 is made in Taiwan. I was just about to spend a serious chunk of money on one when I noticed
the CoE while checking on the weight. I'd presumed it was Swiss - and only a one year warranty. Is the
one year standard for tools these days? And do I care where it's made if it says Bosch on the label?

Inquiring minds want to know.
thanks
Nigel

No I don't think it really matters. It is manufactured in a Bosch plant
using Bosch specified CNC machinery.
The plant happens to be located in Taiwan.

"Nigel Burnett" wrote in message
...
According to Bosch
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tool...31&I=55110&T=1.
the 4412 is made in Taiwan. I was just about to spend a serious chunk of
money on one when I noticed
the CoE while checking on the weight. I'd presumed it was Swiss - and only
a one year warranty. Is the
one year standard for tools these days? And do I care where it's made if
it says Bosch on the label?

Inquiring minds want to know.
thanks
Nigel

Nigel Burnett wrote in
:

According to Bosch
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tool...4931&I=55110&T
=1. the 4412 is made in Taiwan.

That saw has a pretty good reputation for quality. However they do it, it
gets done right.

Patriarch

Nigel Burnett asks:

According to Bosch
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tool...31&I=55110&T=1.
the 4412 is made in Taiwan. I was just about to spend a serious chunk of
money on one when I noticed
the CoE while checking on the weight. I'd presumed it was Swiss - and only a
one year warranty. Is the
one year standard for tools these days? And do I care where it's made if it
says Bosch on the label?

I don't know if you care or not. I don't. Until you mentioned it, I had no idea
where my 4412 was made. I've had the 4412 for 5-6 months now, use it weekly (at
least), and am more than satisfied with it.

I've heard hints that a laser version is on the way (and I'm curious as to how
Bosch will implement this, though I'm not drooling over laser indicators on
most tools...the Delta and Porter-Cable dual line versions are great, but the
rest are mediocre), but otherwise, it does everything that any other top end
12" SCMS will do, and does it all easily.

Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken

Taiwan, and China, to an extent, are becoming pretty well know for tools and
machine tools. They seem to the equivalent of the Japanese auto makers of
the early 70's - coming on strong.

We might as well like it because it looks like most of the 'domestic' brands
are being built with higher foreign content.

Should you care - hell yes. We have managed to send more manufacturing jobs
to Taiwan. Auto plants did it during the 70's and 80's because of poor
quality. We handed our automaking empire to the Japanese. Now, it is the
machine tool manufacturer's turn in the barrel. Fortunately some locals
like Grizzly have managed to salvage state-side employment by offering
limited engineering, finishing and direct distribution from US locations.

RonB


"Nigel Burnett" wrote in message
...
According to Bosch
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tool...31&I=55110&T=1.
the 4412 is made in Taiwan. I was just about to spend a serious chunk of
money on one when I noticed
the CoE while checking on the weight. I'd presumed it was Swiss - and only
a one year warranty. Is the
one year standard for tools these days? And do I care where it's made if
it says Bosch on the label?

Inquiring minds want to know.
thanks
Nigel

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:48:12 -0600, "RonB" wrote:

Fortunately some locals
like Grizzly have managed to salvage state-side employment by offering
limited engineering, finishing and direct distribution from US locations.


Does Grizzly do more in the US than Delta or Powermatic? I'll bet
it's about the same or less.


Barry

Does Grizzly do more in the US than Delta or Powermatic? I'll bet
it's about the same or less.

You are probaby right from an overall distribution and service standpoint.
It just seems like, during the past several years, the Griz is offering
tools that have provided good alternate choices to folks who might buy
Delta, Powermatic or Jet. In some cases they seem to pay more attention to
detail than these providers.

I recently bought a Powermatic jointer and it is a great machine. I was,
however, very disappointed at the quality of the owners handbook that came
with it. I actually got on the Grizzly website and downloaded a G0500
handbook for some of the basic operational infromation.

Nigel -

I've had the 4412 for about two years and other than the fact that it's a
BIG saw, and not really portable, I would buy it again in a heartbeat - mine
is bolted to a bench... While the saw hasn't seen the rigors of traditional
commercial use, I have no doubts that it would hold up just fine. The
attention to detail throughout and the fit and finish are first rate. It
was made in Taiwan... So was my Bosch router and belt sander and I use the
HELL out of both of those... nary a problem in 4+ years. If I wasn't happy
with my prior experience with Bosch, I wouldn't have dropped the large $ on
the 4412. If portability is an issue for you, you might want to think about
something smaller. If it's for a workshop, jump on it!

YMMV,


John Moorhead

RonB states:

Fortunately some locals
like Grizzly have managed to salvage state-side employment by offering
limited engineering, finishing and direct distribution from US locations.

Say what? Grizzly is an IMPORTER and distributor. Almost any company doing
business from here with China and Taiwan does engineering in the U.S. Finishing
is almost never done in the U.S. And how the hell else would any company
distribute in this country except directly?

Grizzly supplies some U.S. jobs at their offices and warehouses, and I'm sure
has a good engineering department. So do numerous other importers, so that is
no distinction whatsoever.

Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken

RonB responds:

Does Grizzly do more in the US than Delta or Powermatic? I'll bet
it's about the same or less.

You are probaby right from an overall distribution and service standpoint.
It just seems like, during the past several years, the Griz is offering
tools that have provided good alternate choices to folks who might buy
Delta, Powermatic or Jet. In some cases they seem to pay more attention to
detail than these providers.

But you said they were helping to keep jobs in the U.S.

I recently bought a Powermatic jointer and it is a great machine. I was,
however, very disappointed at the quality of the owners handbook that came
with it. I actually got on the Grizzly website and downloaded a G0500
handbook for some of the basic operational infromation.

I hope for your sake that the specs of those two jointers are very, very
similar, which seems likely.

Grizzly does have some excellent manuals. I haven't checked out Powermatic
manuals in recent years. Might be worth doing.

I wonder if there's an article on the quality of manuals included with various
tools?

Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:54:02 -0600, "RonB" wrote:


Does Grizzly do more in the US than Delta or Powermatic? I'll bet
it's about the same or less.

You are probaby right from an overall distribution and service standpoint.
It just seems like, during the past several years, the Griz is offering
tools that have provided good alternate choices to folks who might buy
Delta, Powermatic or Jet. In some cases they seem to pay more attention to
detail than these providers.

I'm with you all the way on that point. What I got from your original
post was that Grizzly was protecting American jobs more than the
others. Did I misunderstand?

Barry

On 26 Nov 2004 19:05:30 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

RonB responds:

Does Grizzly do more in the US than Delta or Powermatic? I'll bet
it's about the same or less.

You are probaby right from an overall distribution and service standpoint.
It just seems like, during the past several years, the Griz is offering
tools that have provided good alternate choices to folks who might buy
Delta, Powermatic or Jet. In some cases they seem to pay more attention to
detail than these providers.

But you said they were helping to keep jobs in the U.S.

I recently bought a Powermatic jointer and it is a great machine. I was,
however, very disappointed at the quality of the owners handbook that came
with it. I actually got on the Grizzly website and downloaded a G0500
handbook for some of the basic operational infromation.

I hope for your sake that the specs of those two jointers are very, very
similar, which seems likely.

Grizzly does have some excellent manuals. I haven't checked out Powermatic
manuals in recent years. Might be worth doing.

I wonder if there's an article on the quality of manuals included with various
tools?

Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken

Spoken like a true freelancer g. Seriously, there probably is a good
article in comparing and contrasting manuals -- and a better one in
what to do when you can't decipher the damn manual!

--RC
Sleep? Isn't that a totally inadequate substitute for caffine?

I'm with you all the way on that point. What I got from your original
post was that Grizzly was protecting American jobs more than the
others. Did I misunderstand?


NO! What I meant (and was not well said) was compared to some of the
imports, Grizzly is offereing some employment and a good level of support
for customers.

Compare Grizzly to some others, HF for one, but more notably imported tools
that are often sold in auto supply stores, discount tool outlets, truck
sales, etc. (under brands such as '"X" Machinery', with "X" being the name
of some city). With these X products the route from shipping container to
the customers garage is pretty short and there is little added value or
support. Griz has set up an engineering, distribution and support system
that provides additional value, quality and at least some employment at
three locations in this country. Grizzly is not a Delta, Powermatic or JET
at least not yet.

It appears to me that companies like Grizzly are going to meet the Jet's,
Powermatics and Delta at a middle ground some day. Griz is an obvious
import and the others are gaining off-shore content or are outright imports
under domestic names. I don't really like this situation but I think it is
something we will learn to live with.

I hope for your sake that the specs of those two jointers are very, very
similar, which seems likely.


The specs are different (Powermatic 54 vs Griz G0500) but the instruction
was procedural not closely related to features of the machines.

I posted a message a month or two ago regarding the Powermatic handbook and
got some interesting responses. What it amounted to was the fact that the
entire section on rabbeting was 'partially' removed from the Powermatic book
(one illustration still there, text gone). When I compared it to other
Powermatic books the problem seem to be with the 54 book only. That got me
(used to do some tech writing) looking harder at the 54 manual and I found a
LOT more problems and I contacted the company. After initial denial, they
came back to me, on their own, and admitted the problems and thanked me for
pointing out errors they hadn't found. My impression was the manual was
hosed up during a revision or translation.

Again, I am very happy with the machine. But when I pay a little extra for
a Powermatic yellow paint job, I expect the whole package to be as good as
the hardware. Seems reasonable to me but several folks didn't agree.
Apparently technical data for power tools is accepted as an unimportant
afterthought by some.

RonB

RonB writes:

It appears to me that companies like Grizzly are going to meet the Jet's,
Powermatics and Delta at a middle ground some day. Griz is an obvious
import and the others are gaining off-shore content or are outright imports
under domestic names. I don't really like this situation but I think it is
something we will learn to live with.

Hard not to meet Jet as it ALWAYS has been entirely imported.

Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:06:54 GMT, "John Moorhead" wrote:

Nigel -

I've had the 4412 for about two years and other than the fact that it's a
BIG saw, and not really portable, I would buy it again in a heartbeat - mine
is bolted to a bench... While the saw hasn't seen the rigors of traditional
commercial use, I have no doubts that it would hold up just fine. The
attention to detail throughout and the fit and finish are first rate. It
was made in Taiwan... So was my Bosch router and belt sander and I use the
HELL out of both of those... nary a problem in 4+ years. If I wasn't happy
with my prior experience with Bosch, I wouldn't have dropped the large $ on
the 4412. If portability is an issue for you, you might want to think about
something smaller. If it's for a workshop, jump on it!

John et al.,

It's to replace an ancient Sears (Emerson) RAS that's not very good.
Apart from using the Bosch to cut a lot of red oak trim at weird angles, I am
hoping to use it to cut accurate dados in plywood when I make bookshelves.
All I want is a dead straight 3/8" deep 3/4" wide slot in a 8-12" wide board.

Now that we've had a great discussion of Grizzly etc, how about some opinions
on using a SCMS for this purpose? It looks like the Bosch can't take a dado
blade (from what I read in the manual. Is this true in general? Back to the table saw?

Thanks for everyone's opinions on the Taiwan issue.

Ngel

After a year and a half of great performance, it hasn't bothered me that my
4412 was made in Taiwan.

Rob

Nigel Burnett wrote in
:

snip

John et al.,

It's to replace an ancient Sears (Emerson) RAS that's not very good.
Apart from using the Bosch to cut a lot of red oak trim at weird
angles, I am hoping to use it to cut accurate dados in plywood when I
make bookshelves. All I want is a dead straight 3/8" deep 3/4" wide
slot in a 8-12" wide board.

Now that we've had a great discussion of Grizzly etc, how about some
opinions on using a SCMS for this purpose? It looks like the Bosch
can't take a dado blade (from what I read in the manual. Is this true
in general? Back to the table saw?

Nigel,

I don't think you want to do dados on a SCMS with any regularity. With a
RAS, there was a means of reliably indexing a depth under the blade or dado
stack. The SCMS is designed to cut through the depth of the table. If you
need a less that through cut, you are almost free-handing it.

Dados on the table saw are one way. If you have a router, a top-bearing
flush trim bit and a few clamps, you can do an excellent job with through
dados. Lots of places to look. Pat Warner had, at one time, a video clip
on the FWW website. Leon made a neat looking jig, and plans were hosted, I
think at Morris Dovey's site, although I could be wrong (again.) But for
bookshelves, router dados are the most reliable.

Patriarch,
always looking for another means of miscutting joinery...