Robert,

Pricing based on cost is fundamentally flawed. (I'm making some
assumptions on what you mean when you say "fair markup" - that the price
is somehow algorithmically related to only the cost. If I'm wrong, I'm
sure you'll let me know...)

What if a product was of a certain utility but cost much more to produce
than the value the product provided? Would you charge the usual markup
over the high production cost? Nobody would buy it.

What if a product provided immense utility, time or labor savings, etc.,
and you could only charge the standard markup over cost? This would be
a major disincentive for inventing anything new and better; why would
you spend all that R&D money? Your benefit for your innovation would
be limited to your standard markup (but you'd probably get everyone
buying your thing instead of the other).

If you can invent something that provides immense value (patent it), you
can set a price that reflects this value provided, and customers who see
the value will gladly pay the price. The cost basically determes profit
(or lack thereof).

Just to throw a wrench into everything, read this:
http://www.fastcompany.com/online/68/pricing.html


Robert wrote:
There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
Now it's 'competitive' pricing.
There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on their
goods.
They are worth their weight in gold.
It's too bad Lee Valley isn't one of them.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 03:50:40 GMT, Robert
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:21:01 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:16:54 GMT, Robert
wrote:

There was a day when companies priced their products on a fair markup.
Now it's 'competitive' pricing.

You're absolutely right.

Over the last twenty years we've seen a huge shift to this "global
Walmart" approach. Everything mass retail is now cheaper than it was
twenty years ago, even in dollar terms, not just in real terms.
Tool-wise I used to have the best toolkit on the block when I was just
starting out, now B&Q (our orange borg) are selling tools I only
dreamed of back then, and the TV shows suggest you can't do a thing
unless you own the latest colour of plastic sanding machine.

Everything now is made in the same handful of Chinese factories, works
equally badly, breaks in no time and the only discriminator left is
price. So we take a full-steam-ahead slam into a Thatcherite monopoly
where the only retailers left are Walmart and McDonalds. "Competitive"
pricing delivers low prices, but it also removes every retailer except
the very highest up the size and economy scale.

But I don't want cheap tools, I want _good_ tools. I now have the
ability to affordably buy more rubbish tools than I could previously
imagine. So why am I buying so few of them ? Why does my Dad bring
back a bagful of junk every time he goes shopping, and I don't even
bother looking unless it's either 50 years old or was hand-made by
elves somewhere and with a pricetag to match. I would _love_ to deal
with someone who's makign the product I want to buy, and sticking a
reasonable markup on it. I won't even look at the price tag ! I'll
maybe buy fewer of them, or wait longer before I buy it, but I'm
basically going to buy that grommet-flanger someday because I've
already decided I need one, whatever the price, not just because its
under $5 and her off the telly was using one.

Strangely one of the few companies left doing what you bemoan the lack
of seems to be Lee Valley. I agree with what you claim to be in favour
of ! So why are you then griping and applauding Princess Auto, when
they indulge in the sort of barrel-scraping I abhor ?



LV aren't making Holteys. They aren't shifting a million Eeezy-Set
"Handyman" models every week. They're developing and manufacturing a
tool (like their bench planes) that steals every good idea out there,
then manufactures it to the highest standard that a bench woodworker
can notice. And then the pricetag is still better than all the other
companies that are even vaguely comparable.

I was making a point.
Princess Auto is just one of the companies that buy the same third party stuff
Lee Valley does but sells it at a much lower price.

I'm not disputing that Lee Valley has a line of superior tools of their own.
Unfortunately I'm a power tool fanatic, hand tools are not for me.

I have dozens of tools, kitchen, and garden items from Lee Valley.
They are my #1 Christmas gift supplier, have been for years.
All my saw blades, bandsaw blades, sanding supplies, all come from Lee Valley.
I have bought out the gift item store.
From 5 strobe flashlights (very popular with teens) to 4 kitchen Cleavers, and
three Lee Valley knife sets. My last two wedding gifts came from Lee Valley and
the recipients are now big Lee Valley fans themselves.
If it's stainless and for the kitchen I've bought it from Lee Valley. I never
compared price. I never shopped around.

I just got tired of seeing Americans pay less than me in EVERY succeeding Lee
Valley catalog. From a Canadian company!
I'm not surprised to see all the Americans in this group support Robin.
We Canadians get hosed, so they can get a deal.

Quit whining- If you want compensation for your ummm... severe?
gouging, take a look at how much less you pay for prescription drugs.
Or go buy your stuff from one of the other suppliers.

There are still a few companies who price according to a fair profit on their
goods.
They are worth their weight in gold.

Mainly they've gone bust.

True, we still have a few who service the construction trade in my area.

The mass-market just isn't buying on that
basis. Record are gone. Clifton make their real money from megabuck
tools for aerospace. Stanley has been junk for years.

Robert wrote:
I was making a point.
Princess Auto is just one of the companies that buy the same third party stuff
Lee Valley does but sells it at a much lower price.

In your other thread on those aluminum bar clamps, you state that
Princess Auto claims their product is identical to the LV clamps. Can
you *VERIFY* this? (Andy has posted a cursory analysis saying they are
not the same.) I think you can provide real value (and real
information) to this newsgroup by doing a comparison. A webpage with
some close-up photos and your review of the two products would add
serious weight to your claim, assuming they are the same. (And LV will
of course take their clamp back if you decide it's not worth the price
you paid.)

If I were close to the Mississauga Princess Auto I'd go over and take a
look... but I'm not.

On 28-Oct-2004, Andy Dingley wrote:

Strangely one of the few companies left doing what you bemoan the lack
of seems to be Lee Valley.

What are the options if a Canadian wants to take their business elsewhere?
I've checked the LV prices against other companies' products and the
prices aren't much lower elsewhere. Some are higher and some are lower.
Overall, LV prices are a tad high, but with LV in business, I know I
can get good to superb quality tools and widgets at a reasonable price.
If I lose LV, I get to buy very expensive stuff from the US or buy
mostly crap locally. I'm willing to pay a few bucks more to get LV
products reliably (and I've got two stores within an hour's drive :-)

LV has not raised their prices significantly in the last year. What
has happened is that the US$ has sunk a lot. If C$ pricing was fair
in the past, then why is it suddenly high just because the US$ is
falling through the floor?

Quit yer bellyaching. I'd gladly trade a gazillion Walmarts for one LV.

Mike

"JohnD" wrote in message

If you really want to see how hard Canadians are getting boned, check
out Bosch appliances, or, Tegs tools prices on most things, but Fein

There's a whole pile of conditions that have an effect on why something
maybe more expensive in Canada and there's a number of areas where the
reverse might be true.

Have you ever compared the cost of flying anywhere in Canada to flying in
the US? I can fly five times the distance in the US for what it costs to fly
anywhere in Canada. How do you explain something like that? Centering out
Lee Valley Tools for being caught in the middle of exchange rate conditions
and country conditions is at best, a waste of time.

mp asks:

One example - Dewalt 15ga finish nailer; in the US sold as low as $159 USD
($195 CAD), $399 in Canada. I can see how shipping may add $10 - $15 extra
cost, but why is Dewalt charging double

Why do you assume DeWalt is doing the pricing in either country?

Charlie Self
"When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not
hereditary." Thomas Paine

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 03:50:40 GMT, Robert
wrote:

Princess Auto is just one of the companies that buy the same third party stuff
Lee Valley does but sells it at a much lower price.

In my town I can buy an awful lot of "third party stuff" that looks
the same. Product development seems to be on the basis of one factory
blatantly copying another. But this low-end stuff usually isn't
_quite_ the same, if you look closely. If you ever see a new sort of
Chinese clamp selling for .99c, then buy a handful, and buy them that
day. Because by the time the second boatload lands, they'll have
worked out how to make them more cheaply and less well.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:14:54 -0400, Nova
wrote:


Have you ever tried real Canadian beer and not that watered down stuff they
export to the U.S.?

Why, yes! G

Barry

I just got tired of seeing Americans pay less than me in EVERY succeeding
Lee
Valley catalog. From a Canadian company!
I'm not surprised to see all the Americans in this group support Robin.
We Canadians get hosed, so they can get a deal.

If the US$ had done better, the US consumer would take a hit and LV would
get and exchange bonus. At the same time sales would be likely lost due to
the percieved increase in pricing mitigating that "windfall".

The system is brought about by LV's business decision to set prices, publish
and annual catalog and then stick with the published pices for the entire
year. This is a choice that I as a consumer appreciate.

Sidebar: My dad had the unpleasant experience of having to argue with a
McFeeleys rep to get a product to the price listed in a current catalogue.
It's a good example of the alternative. Personally I think Mcfeeleys screws
are great but *My* first-hand experience was that their customer service
.....well it ain't LV.

The downside to LV's policy is that they end up selling at prices based on
an exchange rate that is up to 16 months old.

It seems to me that the *only* way to satisfy your concerns are the
following alternatives:

1. Floating US pricing based on exchange - A serious turn off to US
customers because they can't look at a product an know what it costs

2. Only sell in CAD funds and thet the credit card companis work the
exchange - Essentially the same thing

3. Make the catalogs/pricing pulication quarterly.

Robert you do have a point that ultimately the whole customer base pays for
the conversion "expenses" incurred by LV in terms of next year's pricing.
So, in a very convoluted way, you are subsidizing my tool habit. Thank you.

However, when I go to the stupidmarket for a gallon of milk at $4.09 (which
the retailer uses as a cash cow) Am I not subsidizing the tuna eaters (of
which I am not one) who can buy the loss-leading Tuna which you yourself
have driven down in price?

That's it, I'm ****ed at Robert for spiraling down the tuna costs so that I
have to pay more for milk!

:-)

-Steve

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:30:18 -0500, Unisaw A100
wrote:
Robert wrote:

I'm off to check the cupboard for tuna.

UA100

I hate when they get tuna in my dolphin meat.

There is not much room for interpretation here. The item in question,
as I stated, is made in Canada. I chose the block plane as an example
to isolate everything but the exchange rate and any remaining
arbitrary cost differential. If anything, it should be more expensive
in the States, since it is made in Canada. Seems unlikely it could
cost less to get to the good to Canada when it is made there. I am
not making a moral statement, nor a political one, just pointing out
the economic reality driving the price difference.






om...
It is clear that Lee Valley has decided to charge higher prices to
Canadian consumers harder because the Canadian market is simply less
competitive than the US market.


It may seem clear to you but it is not to me.
Could be other reasons. Perhaps the cost of getting the goods to Canada is
higher than getting them to the US shipping warehouse. I don't know if any
tarriff or duty is involved.
I do know we ship a lot of goods to CA at US prices and the customer is
paying more in total than the same thing sold in the US by the time he pays
duty.

I have enough to keep me busy running my own business so I'm not going to
try to run Lee Valley and make policy for them also.

Flights are cheaper in the US because there is more competition for
passengers. This is precisely why the plane is cheaper there, as
well. More competition leads lo lower profit-maximizing pricing. If
you can identifying the cost advantage to a Canadian-made plane
selling in the US I would love to hear it... I was merely trying to
explain the observed phenomenon of the pricing spreads, not pass moral
judgement on Lee Valley.

The reason Bosch sells for more in Canada is that the distributor,
Amiel, is taking a very high markup - significantly higher than that
taken by the retailer. I predict Bosch will pull the plug on them in
the next while.

If you consider the discussion a waste of time, that is your business,
but it is puzzling that you would then choose to participate in said
discussion...





"Upscale" wrote in message ...
"JohnD" wrote in message

If you really want to see how hard Canadians are getting boned, check
out Bosch appliances, or, Tegs tools prices on most things, but Fein

There's a whole pile of conditions that have an effect on why something
maybe more expensive in Canada and there's a number of areas where the
reverse might be true.

Have you ever compared the cost of flying anywhere in Canada to flying in
the US? I can fly five times the distance in the US for what it costs to fly
anywhere in Canada. How do you explain something like that? Centering out
Lee Valley Tools for being caught in the middle of exchange rate conditions
and country conditions is at best, a waste of time.

Notice how almost all threads devolve to politics?

Patriarch

You devolved the thread to politics. I spoke of pricing decisions.
You brought up NAFTA, etc. Nice to be so self-aware.

Subsidized health care? Technical support lines in French Canadian? Local
content regulation?

Doing business across ANY border is a puzzle. This is one reason that
NAFTA was proposed, and, in some form, instituted. Notice just how easily
that project went together.



Patriarch

"JohnD" wrote in message
om...
There is not much room for interpretation here. The item in question,
as I stated, is made in Canada. I chose the block plane as an example
to isolate everything but the exchange rate and any remaining
arbitrary cost differential. If anything, it should be more expensive
in the States, since it is made in Canada. Seems unlikely it could
cost less to get to the good to Canada when it is made there. I am
not making a moral statement, nor a political one, just pointing out
the economic reality driving the price difference.


yeahbutt. you are comparing todays's exchange rate to pricing that was set
on an exchange rate that was probably set some time ago. Rob already told us
that they set that in June, but that may be '03 in this case once you figure
in the lead times for catalog production.

According to the Bank of Canada:

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/exchange-look.htm

Today: 1.23
June 1, 2003 1.3685
June 1, 2004 1.3695


So basically we're talking about a 3% difference between their pricing and
the exchange rate at the time the prices were set.

I just don't see where the there is a conpiracy to screw the locals here.

This is an excellent question.

Having worked several years in retail in Canada, I know that many
items had US retail pricing below Canadian wholesale. Generally this
was due to a small distributor taking a huge margin in the middle,
with the retailer stuck with low margins to customers: 25% - 30%. The
barriers to entry to retail are relatively low, compared to
distribution, and so the fat tends to stay with the middleman.

Dewalt USA also appears to handle the distribution to Canada. I am
inclined to believe that Dewalt has decided to make more money in
Canada, per unit, as opposed to simply higher retail margins
prevailing.


Why do you assume DeWalt is doing the pricing in either country?

Charlie Self
"When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not
hereditary." Thomas Paine

One example - Dewalt 15ga finish nailer; in the US sold as low as $159
USD ($195 CAD), $399 in Canada. I can see how shipping may add $10 -
$15 extra cost, but why is Dewalt charging double?


Subsidized health care? Technical support lines in French Canadian?
Local
content regulation?

Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign companies
setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
largely paid for by the Canadian public.

One example - Dewalt 15ga finish nailer; in the US sold as low as $159 USD
($195 CAD), $399 in Canada. I can see how shipping may add $10 - $15 extra
cost, but why is Dewalt charging double

Why do you assume DeWalt is doing the pricing in either country?

Dewalt USA is also the Canadian supplier and distributor and they set the
wholesale pricing to retailers. The margins at retail level for Dewalt are
similar to any other brand name product, perhaps averaging in the 15-25%
range.

Have you ever compared the cost of flying anywhere in Canada to flying in
the US? I can fly five times the distance in the US for what it costs to
fly
anywhere in Canada. How do you explain something like that?

The pricing of flights is determined by passenger yields, passenger volume,
and the competitive environment. There are low cost carriers flying between
major Canadian routes that offer very competitive rates, even compared to
similar travel in the US.

Don't know what this has to do with Lee Valley as most of their stuff is
shipped ground freight.

On 29-Oct-2004, Robert wrote:

you don't understand business.

I do understand business. I know why there are a gazillion Walmarts
and only a few LVs. I'm not interested in business - I'm interested
in getting good value for my money. I've been getting that from LV
for years. You've been complaining, but I ain't buying it.

Mike

"JohnD" spake thus:
Snip of this and that
... If
you can identifying the cost advantage to a Canadian-made plane
selling in the US I would love to hear it... I was merely trying to
explain the observed phenomenon of the pricing spreads, not pass moral
judgement on Lee Valley.

Well now ... Delta Airlines and their commuter subsidiaries have been flying
CRJs (40 pax model) for several years now. The CRJ ... (Canadair Regional
Jet) is a short-haul jet replacing a number of turboprop planes. The thrust
to weight ratio is very close to 1:1 ... getting you off the ground and up
.... QUICK. It's more cost effective than the older turboprops per pax seat
than the turboprops, yet can use the same runways, and beats the 15-25 pax
turboprop loads.

This was AFTER consideration of US short-haul jets ... the CRJs were cheaper
to purchase and fly.



*****

Now I have a question ... does LV's Canadian prices include VAT/GST, or are
they applied separately?


Rick

On 29-Oct-2004, "mp" wrote:

Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign companies
setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
largely paid for by the Canadian public.

Health care, in Ontario at least, is paid for by the employer. Nice hypothesis,
too bad you don't have facts to back it.

Mike

In article ,
"Michael Daly" wrote:

On 29-Oct-2004, "mp" wrote:

Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign companies
setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
largely paid for by the Canadian public.

Health care, in Ontario at least, is paid for by the employer. Nice
hypothesis,
too bad you don't have facts to back it.


Funny, I live in Ontario, I don't even *have* an employer, yet I get
Health Care covered. Two explanations:

- You are dead wrong
or
- You two are talking about different things. "Health care" from a
"plan" such as is offered by an employer, is additional health care
which covers such things as dentistry, travel coverage, a portion of
eyewear and prescriptions (especially). These things are not covered by
the government. The government plan covers operations, doctors visits,
etc; mostly everything except the ones I listed. Travel coverage is a
bit weird and too complex to go into here. The employer does *not* pay
for this care; it is out of conventional gov revenue.

PK

But a real comparision is really Canadian vs US big name brews (i.e. Bud vs
Labatt's), or Canadian vs US micro brews. Comparing one countries big names
to another countries micro's is hardly fair.

Clint

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:42:00 -0400, "Buck Turgidson"
wrote:


Based on conversion rates we Canadians are getting the short end of the
stick,
from a Canadian company.


Yes, but your beer is better.


Whaa?

Have you actually tried American micro brews, or just Budweiser and
Miller products? G

Barry

In article 67xgd.54810$nl.21071@pd7tw3no, Clint
wrote:

But a real comparision is really Canadian vs US big name brews (i.e. Bud vs
Labatt's), or Canadian vs US micro brews. Comparing one countries big names
to another countries micro's is hardly fair.

The micros I've had on both sides of the border are quite comparable
and in general, excellent.

Comparing the majors, I much prefer Canadian beer. More flavor, for one.

Q: Why is American beer like making love in a canoe?

;-)

Rick:

I should have been clearer, I meant block plane, not aero-plane.
The LV prices are before the (15% in Ontario) PST & GST.

On 29-Oct-2004, Paul Kierstead wrote:

unny, I live in Ontario, I don't even *have* an employer, yet I get
Health Care covered. Two explanations:

- You are dead wrong
or
- You two are talking about different things.

Third alternative - you don't understand.

OHIP is payed for by employers. Unemployed are still covered. Self
employed have (had?) a loophole that let them off the hook as well.
At one time the OHIP costs were split 50/50 employer/employee and
unemployed had to pay directly. Now it is 100% employer and the
unemployed get coverage regardless.

Mike

It's been a LONG day ...

my apologies.

Thanks for the VAT/GST info.


Rick


wrote in message
ups.com...
Rick:

I should have been clearer, I meant block plane, not aero-plane.
The LV prices are before the (15% in Ontario) PST & GST.

(JohnD) wrote in
om:

Notice how almost all threads devolve to politics?

Patriarch

You devolved the thread to politics. I spoke of pricing decisions.
You brought up NAFTA, etc. Nice to be so self-aware.


John,

Understanding pricing decisions in different, yet related and connected
economies is inherently political.

And it seems only in contentious election cycles that politics is a
perjorative.

Politics is the very messy process whereby people make decisions on how
they will deal with a complex, uncertain world. Thank whatever belief
system you espouse that we have those options.

Patriarch

In article ,
"Michael Daly" wrote:

On 29-Oct-2004, Paul Kierstead wrote:

unny, I live in Ontario, I don't even *have* an employer, yet I get
Health Care covered. Two explanations:

- You are dead wrong
or
- You two are talking about different things.

Third alternative - you don't understand.

OHIP is payed for by employers. Unemployed are still covered. Self
employed have (had?) a loophole that let them off the hook as well.
At one time the OHIP costs were split 50/50 employer/employee and
unemployed had to pay directly. Now it is 100% employer and the
unemployed get coverage regardless.

What? No, it most certainly is not. *You* have some misunderstanding;
employers don't even get close to paying full OHIP costs. Where on earth
did you get such information?

PK

In article ,
"Michael Daly" wrote:

On 29-Oct-2004, Paul Kierstead wrote:

unny, I live in Ontario, I don't even *have* an employer, yet I get
Health Care covered. Two explanations:

- You are dead wrong
or
- You two are talking about different things.

Third alternative - you don't understand.

OHIP is payed for by employers. Unemployed are still covered. Self
employed have (had?) a loophole that let them off the hook as well.
At one time the OHIP costs were split 50/50 employer/employee and
unemployed had to pay directly. Now it is 100% employer and the
unemployed get coverage regardless.

Mike

I already answered this once, but here is more info:

I think you are referring to the Employer Health Tax. This is a surchage
to employers for health taxes. See

http://www.trd.fin.gov.on.ca/userfil...rary/3/irie_eh
t_guide_for_employers_march_2003.htm#link17

I think if you have a look at the rates and the cost per person of
health care, you will discover it doesn't even get close to paying for
it. It is just another tax grab whilst claiming to have the tax rate set
(or even reduced); not that I mind paying taxes for services received, I
just hate it when they are dishonest about the whole thing.

Anyway, you have been misinformed; I encourage you to explore the issue
yourself to verify that. Even write them an email.

PK

On 29-Oct-2004, Paul Kierstead wrote:

What? No, it most certainly is not. *You* have some misunderstanding;
employers don't even get close to paying full OHIP costs.

You're right - I left out the federal part (the ever declining part
until recently) and whatever comes out of general revenue. However,
to the earlier poster's comment, the employer does not get off scott
free. There are costs to the employer, though likely lower than that
paid to private insurers by US employers.

Mike

Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign
companies
setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
largely paid for by the Canadian public.

Health care, in Ontario at least, is paid for by the employer. Nice
hypothesis,
too bad you don't have facts to back it.

Perhaps I can explain it a bit better to you. Some provinces charge health
care premiums, some don't. The amount that some provinces charge is minimal,
for instance, British Columbia charges $50 per month per person. This is
only a token amount, a mere pittance in the overall operating costs. The
majority of the funding for the health care system is shared between the
provincial and federal governments (i.e. the Canadian public).

Sometimes the employer picks up the $50 per month premium as part of the
employee benefit package but that can hardly be considered as you suggest,
health care being paid for by the employer.

"Robert" wrote in message

Difference? Only in product.
They appear to have a virtually identical pricing policy.

For all your warnings and complaints against Lee Valley Tools, there's one
thing you haven't commented on and that's Princess Auto's reputation for
selling low end products. I live in Ontario and I've been to one of their
stores a few times. The products they sell are almost always a cheap
knock-off from the original product, a no name product, or an off brand name
that very few have heard off. Anybody viewing their online catalogue can
confirm that in an instant. The place reeks of low quality.

I don't know about the bar clamps that you're comparing to Lee Valley, but
from the few times I've visited Princess Auto, I'd wouldn't buy from them
unless I needed something really quick and they were nearby. I certainly
wouldn't expect that product to fulfill any long lasting need.

(JohnD) wrote in
om:

There is not much room for interpretation here. The item in question,
as I stated, is made in Canada. I chose the block plane as an example
to isolate everything but the exchange rate and any remaining
arbitrary cost differential. If anything, it should be more expensive
in the States, since it is made in Canada. Seems unlikely it could
cost less to get to the good to Canada when it is made there. I am
not making a moral statement, nor a political one, just pointing out
the economic reality driving the price difference.


Does the scale and geographic diversity of the market have no effect?
Fixed costs, specific to the country, spread over a smaller sales base?

Recall also, in the US, Lee Valley ONLY has the web/catalog sales model to
support, without bricks and mortar retail.

Patriarch

(JohnD) wrote in
om:

Flights are cheaper in the US because there is more competition for
passengers. This is precisely why the plane is cheaper there, as
well. More competition leads lo lower profit-maximizing pricing.

Flights are also cheaper, because there are more people wanting to fly, at
any given price.

Patriarch

As you say most provinces charge a health tax on employers however, in
the overall scheme of things if you add the cost of extended health
benefits paid by employers the private sector in Canada is paying for an
about 30% of health care although our Federal and Provincial Governments
do not like to acknowledge that.

Glen Duff
------------------

mp wrote:

Subsidized health care is very attractive to US or other foreign
companies
setting up in Canada. The cost of the most expensive employee benefit is
largely paid for by the Canadian public.

Health care, in Ontario at least, is paid for by the employer. Nice
hypothesis,
too bad you don't have facts to back it.


Perhaps I can explain it a bit better to you. Some provinces charge health
care premiums, some don't. The amount that some provinces charge is minimal,
for instance, British Columbia charges $50 per month per person. This is
only a token amount, a mere pittance in the overall operating costs. The
majority of the funding for the health care system is shared between the
provincial and federal governments (i.e. the Canadian public).

Sometimes the employer picks up the $50 per month premium as part of the
employee benefit package but that can hardly be considered as you suggest,
health care being paid for by the employer.

As you say most provinces charge a health tax on employers however,

I never said that. What I said is that some provinces charge a small premium
for health care. Sometimes it's paid for by the employers, sometimes it
isn't.

in the overall scheme of things if you add the cost of extended health
benefits paid by employers the private sector in Canada is paying for an
about 30% of health care although our Federal and Provincial Governments
do not like to acknowledge that.

We were talking about subsidized health care, which is largely funded by the
taxpayer and is free to every Canadian , regardless of their employment
status (with the exception of some provinces that charge a small monthly
premium).

Private health care is another issue. It's optional and the degree of
coverage can vary from 0 to 100% depending on the employee benefit package.

Robert wrote:

Robin has admitted that because the competitive marketplace in the US demands it
he must give his American customers a better deal.

If you have evidence to back up this egregious accusation, please
produce it. He said that they set their prices when they print their
catalog, and thereafter price differences accrue as the currency
exchange rates change. The better deal for American customers is only
an artifact of their falling dollar. Rob Lee has no control on the
value of the U.S. dollar; it is completely out of his hands.

Ken Muldrew

(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)

"Robert" wrote in message
Rob Lee considers this fair, I don't. It's as simple as that.

And in the same vein, you're an asshole, so what else is there to say?

Robert wrote:

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:04:02 GMT, (Ken Muldrew) wrote:

Robert wrote:

Robin has admitted that because the competitive marketplace in the US demands it
he must give his American customers a better deal.

If you have evidence to back up this egregious accusation, please
produce it. He said that they set their prices when they print their
catalog, and thereafter price differences accrue as the currency
exchange rates change.

Um, no, he did not say that.

"Stephen M" wrote in message
...

"Robin has addressed this directly (I think) within the last year in

this forum. If you google it I'm sure it's there somewhere.

They set prices annually and take there lumps one way or another
with the exchange rates. I'm sure that they do not only have to be
concerned with US/CDN rates, but also the currencies of suppliers."

To which Robin Lee replied

"Hi Stephen -

Thanks for the clear and correct explanation - yes - we set our
rates in June, and hold for a year..."

So, um, yes, he did say that after all.

He said prices are set differently to compete in
the different market places. Less competition in Canada means Lee Valley can
charge higher prices to Canadians.

I've looked through Google Groups and I can find no such statement
(which is why I asked you to produce a quote to back up your
accusation). Can you please quote the message that gave you this idea
that Canadians are subsidizing the American market?

Ken Muldrew

(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)