There has been a lot of discussion on this board about "Crapsman"
tools. Some
good some not-so-good. I happen to like their tools...most that is w/ a
few exceptions...
the router being one of them.

I'm wondering who makes Craftsman power tools? Is it a wholly owned
company or
an exsiting co. that makes tools under it's own name or different
comanies? I know the
Danaher tool co of Conn. (or is that Mass ?) makes their hand tools like
ratchet wrenches and sockets etc.
It's easy to see that their refridgerators are made by Whirlpool, but
who makes their power tools like cordless/
corded drills, saws etc?

Does anyone out there know?

Thanks

Strike

striker asks:


There has been a lot of discussion on this board about "Crapsman"
tools. Some
good some not-so-good. I happen to like their tools...most that is w/ a
few exceptions...
the router being one of them.

I'm wondering who makes Craftsman power tools? Is it a wholly owned
company or
an exsiting co. that makes tools under it's own name or different
comanies? I know the
Danaher tool co of Conn. (or is that Mass ?) makes their hand tools like
ratchet wrenches and sockets etc.
It's easy to see that their refridgerators are made by Whirlpool, but
who makes their power tools like cordless/
corded drills, saws etc?

Does anyone out there know?

There's a list of who has made their tools over the years. It may not be
totally up-to-date, and changes may occur even as someone tells you who makes
what. Most of the pneumatic tools (nailers, etc.) are from Colovos Co., while
Orion makes the new line of table saws. Colovos also provides the industrial
table saws, jointer, planers. I think, but won't swear to this, that Ryobi
makes many of the smaller power tools, the cordless drills, etc. There are
numerous others in the mix, too, and who makes what can change from year to
year, as contracts run out and new designs pop up. For example, Emerson made
the table saws for many years, with Ryobi taking over from them. That didn't
last too long as Orion brought on their new designs. As an incidental point,
the people running Orion are old Delta hands who weren't happy with the move
from Pittsburgh. There is constant competition, though. And the contract
details, of course, are not public, so you don't normally know what the terms
are. My bet is that very seldom is a term over three years. Short term lengths
tend to keep competition keen.

Charlie Self
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for
selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith

striker wrote:

There has been a lot of discussion on this board about "Crapsman"
tools. Some
good some not-so-good. I happen to like their tools...most that is w/ a
few exceptions...
the router being one of them.

I'm wondering who makes Craftsman power tools? Is it a wholly owned
company or
an exsiting co. that makes tools under it's own name or different
comanies? I know the
Danaher tool co of Conn. (or is that Mass ?) makes their hand tools like
ratchet wrenches and sockets etc.
It's easy to see that their refridgerators are made by Whirlpool, but
who makes their power tools like cordless/
corded drills, saws etc?

Does anyone out there know?

Depends on the tool. Different brands. They have a 5-1/4" angle grinder
that's made by Skil and a jigsaw made by Bosch for example. Don't know who
makes the cheap stuff.

Thanks

Strike

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Everyone knocks Sears, but can you imagine how many folks started off with
their tools [myself included] .There was a time not that long ago when there
were not that many tool supplyers around. Oh their quality was not that of
many of the top dealers today but neither were their prices ....mjh


"striker" wrote in message
...
There has been a lot of discussion on this board about "Crapsman"
tools. Some
good some not-so-good. I happen to like their tools...most that is w/ a
few exceptions...
the router being one of them.

I'm wondering who makes Craftsman power tools? Is it a wholly owned
company or
an exsiting co. that makes tools under it's own name or different
comanies? I know the
Danaher tool co of Conn. (or is that Mass ?) makes their hand tools like
ratchet wrenches and sockets etc.
It's easy to see that their refridgerators are made by Whirlpool, but
who makes their power tools like cordless/
corded drills, saws etc?

Does anyone out there know?

Thanks

Strike

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first table
saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was learning
my woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced
tools, once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of what
you want/need.

I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the first one
with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for wasting the money on
the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more on better tools and saved
a few pieces of wood and some frustration when the tools didn't perform as
well as they should.
In the short term the cheaper craftsman tools look like a good deal but
looking at the long term, I've had to replace each one so I'm out both the
money of the good tool and the money spent on the craftsman. The cost of a
couple craftsman tools that had to be replaced was enough to buy something
better in the first place.
Of course its not just craftsman, I have a worthless Black and Decker jigsaw
and threw away and old skil circular saw a few years ago because I bought
cheap. But I have learned that buying cheaper tools doesn't save any $
because you have to re-buy them again. I have bought my father three
different cordless drills over the last few years and still have and use
and abuse my 9.6V Makita from 1995. So when he needed another cordless
drill (4th one now) I picked up a Makita and now instead of buying a new
drill every couple years I buy him something else to go along with the one
he has because it actually lasts more than a couple years.
My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you don't need to
upgrade as soon.

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first table saw
was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was learning my
woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced tools,
once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of what you
want/need.

"striker" wrote in message
...
There has been a lot of discussion on this board about "Crapsman"
tools. Some
good some not-so-good. I happen to like their tools...most that is w/ a
few exceptions...
the router being one of them.

I'm wondering who makes Craftsman power tools? Is it a wholly owned
company or
an exsiting co. that makes tools under it's own name or different
comanies? I know the
Danaher tool co of Conn. (or is that Mass ?) makes their hand tools like
ratchet wrenches and sockets etc.
It's easy to see that their refridgerators are made by Whirlpool, but
who makes their power tools like cordless/
corded drills, saws etc?

Does anyone out there know?

Thanks

Strike

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first table
saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was
learning
my woodworking skills --


Eugene wrote:
I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the first
one
with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for wasting the money on
the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more on better tools and saved
a few pieces of wood and some frustration when the tools didn't perform as
well as they should.

You're both right. Some Craftsman tools are just re-branded tools by other
makers, good or bad. Some of the older tools were pretty good. At some
point, profit at a low selling price became the main theme of tool design
and the quality faded.

If you re-brand tools from Bosch, Milwaukee, etc, the offerings are better
than those from Ryobi or B & D. Use caution and investigate and you may
get a good buy. Sears often has deep discount on the sale items.

Eugene wrote:

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first table
saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was
learning my woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a Biesemeyer
home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced
tools, once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of what
you want/need.

I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the first
one with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for wasting the
money on the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more on better tools
and saved a few pieces of wood and some frustration when the tools didn't
perform as well as they should.
In the short term the cheaper craftsman tools look like a good deal but
looking at the long term, I've had to replace each one so I'm out both the
money of the good tool and the money spent on the craftsman. The cost of
a couple craftsman tools that had to be replaced was enough to buy
something better in the first place.
Of course its not just craftsman, I have a worthless Black and Decker
jigsaw and threw away and old skil circular saw a few years ago because I
bought
cheap. But I have learned that buying cheaper tools doesn't save any $
because you have to re-buy them again. I have bought my father three
different cordless drills over the last few years and still have and use
and abuse my 9.6V Makita from 1995. So when he needed another cordless
drill (4th one now) I picked up a Makita and now instead of buying a new
drill every couple years I buy him something else to go along with the one
he has because it actually lasts more than a couple years.
My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you don't need to
upgrade as soon.

While what you say about cheap tools is in general true, it is true of all
brands of cheap tool and not only of Craftsman. And there are many high
quality tools sold under the Craftsman brand at prices similar to those
charged for the same tool under the manufacturer's brand.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

The first 3 numbers of the sears model number are a code to the
manufacturer. You can do google search and find links like:
http://www.edgeta.org/sears.htm. For example, my (very) old Craftman
router model 315.17370 is made by Ryan (whoever that is).

Wayne

"striker" wrote in message
...
There has been a lot of discussion on this board about "Crapsman"
tools. Some
good some not-so-good. I happen to like their tools...most that is w/ a
few exceptions...
the router being one of them.

I'm wondering who makes Craftsman power tools? Is it a wholly owned
company or
an exsiting co. that makes tools under it's own name or different
comanies? I know the
Danaher tool co of Conn. (or is that Mass ?) makes their hand tools like
ratchet wrenches and sockets etc.
It's easy to see that their refridgerators are made by Whirlpool, but
who makes their power tools like cordless/
corded drills, saws etc?

Does anyone out there know?

Thanks

Strike

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 13:58:21 -0400, striker
wrote:

There has been a lot of discussion on this board about "Crapsman"
tools. Some
good some not-so-good. I happen to like their tools...most that is w/ a
few exceptions...
the router being one of them.

I'm wondering who makes Craftsman power tools? Is it a wholly owned
company or
an exsiting co. that makes tools under it's own name or different
comanies? I know the
Danaher tool co of Conn. (or is that Mass ?) makes their hand tools like
ratchet wrenches and sockets etc.
It's easy to see that their refridgerators are made by Whirlpool, but
who makes their power tools like cordless/
corded drills, saws etc?

Does anyone out there know?

Thanks

Strike

Each tool is bid on individually, AFAIK...

If you look at their $180 biscuit jointer, it's obvious that it's a
DeWalt 672...
I was at Orchard Supply (the cheap place to buy Craftsman) looking at
sabre/jig saws and they actually had them displayed WITH the Skill
brand ones... one quick look at each model side by side and you could
see that they were Skill with different labels..

Eugene notes:

My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you don't need to
upgrade as soon.

And my point is often that if some people can't start with low end stuff, then
they'll NEVER be able to afford to start. The yuppie viewpoint is great, but
not everyone can afford to pay for it.

Charlie Self
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for
selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith

Charlie Self did say:

And my point is often that if some people can't start with low end stuff, then
they'll NEVER be able to afford to start. The yuppie viewpoint is great, but
not everyone can afford to pay for it.

AMEN! Buy the best you can afford or as good as you need, but just get
TOOLED UP and get on with it!

On 09 Oct 2004 18:31:47 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:


what. Most of the pneumatic tools (nailers, etc.) are from Colovos Co., while
Orion makes the new line of table saws. Colovos also provides the industrial

Found this:

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/ez.../interview.cfm

Interesting!

"Mike Hide" wrote in message
news:E%W9d.152124$wV.95119@attbi_s54...
| Everyone knocks Sears, but can you imagine how many folks started
| off with their tools [myself included].

My grandfather started and ended a sixty-year career as a carpenter and
general contractor using only Sears tools, by choice.

--Jay

Charlie Self
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for
selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith

Hi Charlie,

I'm positively not getting into any political discussion, but I thought
you might find the following interesting as it shows how the current
liberal & conservative behave before a presidential run.

From:

http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003628.php

Lou

----------------
Kerry's returns from 1995 and earlier, before his marriage to Heinz,
have sometimes attracted criticism over the issue of charitable giving.

In 1995, according to published reports, Kerry reported a taxable
income of $126,179, and charitable contributions of $0.
In 1994, he reported income of $127,884, and charitable donations of
$2,039.
In 1993, he reported income of $130,345, and contributions of $175.
In 1992, he reported income of $127,646, and contributions of $820.
In 1991, he reported income of $113,857, and contributions of $0.


As far as Bush is concerned, in 1991, the future president, then a
private citizen, reportedly had income of $179,591, and charitable
contributions of $28,236.
In 1992, Bush reported income of $212.313, and contributions of $31,914.
In 1993, Bush reported income of $610,772, and contributions of $31,292.
In 1994, Bush reported income of $474,937 and in 1995, income of
$419,481. Published reports at that time did not list Bush's charitable
contributions for those two years.

In 5 years John Kerry, who earned $625,911 in that period, donated
$3,034 to charity. That's .5% of his income.

In those same 5 years George Bush, who earned $1,893,091, donated
$91,442 (more likely the amount was over $150,00 if the missing years
were added). Even minus the two missing years that's 4.8% of his
income.

If you assume that Bush's donations were actually $150,000 (probably a
low estimate) over the five years, he would have donated 7.9% of his
income to charity.

It seems that Senator Kerry should be the last person to talk about the
Good Samaritans.

To his credit once Kerry married money he started giving to charity on
a level comparable to what George Bush had been doing for years.
Remember to thank Teresa for getting Kerry started down the charitable
contribution path...

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:14:33 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Eugene wrote:

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first table
saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was
learning my woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a Biesemeyer
home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced
tools, once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of what
you want/need.

I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the first
one with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for wasting the
money on the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more on better tools
and saved a few pieces of wood and some frustration when the tools didn't
perform as well as they should.
In the short term the cheaper craftsman tools look like a good deal but
looking at the long term, I've had to replace each one so I'm out both the
money of the good tool and the money spent on the craftsman. The cost of
a couple craftsman tools that had to be replaced was enough to buy
something better in the first place.
Of course its not just craftsman, I have a worthless Black and Decker
jigsaw and threw away and old skil circular saw a few years ago because I
bought
cheap. But I have learned that buying cheaper tools doesn't save any $
because you have to re-buy them again. I have bought my father three
different cordless drills over the last few years and still have and use
and abuse my 9.6V Makita from 1995. So when he needed another cordless
drill (4th one now) I picked up a Makita and now instead of buying a new
drill every couple years I buy him something else to go along with the one
he has because it actually lasts more than a couple years.
My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you don't need to
upgrade as soon.

While what you say about cheap tools is in general true, it is true of all
brands of cheap tool and not only of Craftsman. And there are many high
quality tools sold under the Craftsman brand at prices similar to those
charged for the same tool under the manufacturer's brand.

Not to mention the fact that some of the good tool companies have some
cheap crap as well. I usually buy Delta, and I'm almost always very
happy with their tools- but then you get something like a benchmaster
disc/belt sander combo, and while it is good for the price, it's
hardly an impressive tool. Ditto for the small band saws- the big
ones may be wonderful (I don't know) but the little one I've got is
barely worth the deeply discounted price I paid for it.

On the other hand, their customer service kicks ass!

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 07:18:16 -0700, "Herb Robinson"
wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first table saw
was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was learning my
woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced tools,
once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of what you
want/need.

I think you'll find that there's only a few that knock Craftsman.

I've bought many tools from Sears...including a nice router...that
I've had for years.

Tools are like cars. If yer goin' to the grocery store, do you need a
Mustang?...or a Town Car? And which one do you WANT? lol


Have a nice one...

Trent

Budweiser: Helping ugly people have sex since 1876!

p
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
|
| And my point is often that if some people can't start with low end stuff,
then
| they'll NEVER be able to afford to start.

I resemble that remark. If I hadn't been able to get a $130 band saw at
Sears when I was a student, I probably would never have had a band saw. It
was a piece of crap as band saws go, but it was better than nothing.

--Jay

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:43:52 -0400, Trent©
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 07:18:16 -0700, "Herb Robinson"
wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first table saw
was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was learning my
woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced tools,
once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of what you
want/need.

I think you'll find that there's only a few that knock Craftsman.

I've bought many tools from Sears...including a nice router...that
I've had for years.

Tools are like cars. If yer goin' to the grocery store, do you need a
Mustang?...or a Town Car? And which one do you WANT? lol


Have a nice one...

Trent

Budweiser: Helping ugly people have sex since 1876!

wow.. you rang a bell there, Trent!
The router that I've been using for over 20 years and never thought
about brand-wise is a craftsman...
After all the use and abuse of just about all of my friends and
neighbors, and me once in a while, I had my first problem with it last
week..
The return spring on the little arm that locks the shaft for bit
changes broke... I replaced it with one I had (I never throw ANYTHING
away) in about 20 min... most of that time was taken to clean under
and around the faceplate for the 1st time ever..

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:32:38 GMT, mac davis
wrote:

wow.. you rang a bell there, Trent!
The router that I've been using for over 20 years and never thought
about brand-wise is a craftsman...
After all the use and abuse of just about all of my friends and
neighbors, and me once in a while, I had my first problem with it last
week..
The return spring on the little arm that locks the shaft for bit
changes broke... I replaced it with one I had (I never throw ANYTHING
away) in about 20 min... most of that time was taken to clean under
and around the faceplate for the 1st time ever..

I like mine, Mac. I think I paid just over $100 for it...and that
included the router table!

Then I bought a plunge router attachment for my RotoZip.

Don't get me wrong...I've returned a few things...and not just at
Sears, of course. But I've never gotten a hard time taking anything
back to Sears.


Have a nice one...

Trent

Budweiser: Helping ugly people have sex since 1876!

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:26:15 -0400, Trent©
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:32:38 GMT, mac davis
wrote:

wow.. you rang a bell there, Trent!
The router that I've been using for over 20 years and never thought
about brand-wise is a craftsman...
After all the use and abuse of just about all of my friends and
neighbors, and me once in a while, I had my first problem with it last
week..
The return spring on the little arm that locks the shaft for bit
changes broke... I replaced it with one I had (I never throw ANYTHING
away) in about 20 min... most of that time was taken to clean under
and around the faceplate for the 1st time ever..

I like mine, Mac. I think I paid just over $100 for it...and that
included the router table!

Then I bought a plunge router attachment for my RotoZip.

Don't get me wrong...I've returned a few things...and not just at
Sears, of course. But I've never gotten a hard time taking anything
back to Sears.


Have a nice one...

Trent

Budweiser: Helping ugly people have sex since 1876!

I've never had a problem returning or exchanging tools at sears...
even when I screw up and abuse it so bad that it breaks..
I took in a 3/4" breaker bar that we broke in half (you don't want to
know how *g*) and the guy at sears took a look at it, got me a new
one, then sat down and asked how the hell I broke it.. *lmao*

Charlie Self wrote:

Eugene notes:

My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you don't need to
upgrade as soon.

And my point is often that if some people can't start with low end stuff,
then they'll NEVER be able to afford to start. The yuppie viewpoint is
great, but not everyone can afford to pay for it.

Charlie Self
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith
Has nothing to do with yuppiness. I was about to give up with anything that
required a router out of frustration. But decided it can't be that I'm
that bad so I went and bought a PC and found out it wasn't me screwing up
all that wood, most of the time anyway
Its about using the right tool for the job, a craftsman router is designed
to be used once or twice and sit on the shelf, a better brand that isn't
much more expensive is designed to be used to make things. Same with any
other tools, buy a wrench from wal mart and it won't last if you try to
rebuild an engine but if you just tighten a loose bolt on the swing set it
will probably work fine.
Your would be much better off to buy a used quality tool than a new cheap
tool. I have a nice new almost never used black and decker jigsaw which
won't cut a straight line not matter what kind of blade I feed it so it was
a complete waste of money. So is someone who can't afford to start someone
who has money to throw away? Is it better for someone to spend $100 on a
router, have it ruin a first project and get frustrated and throw it away
and walk away from the hobby that they could have enjoyed?

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first table
saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was
learning my woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a
Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced
tools, once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of
what you want/need.

I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the first
one with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for wasting the
money on the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more on better tools
and saved a few pieces of wood and some frustration when the tools didn't
perform as well as they should.
In the short term the cheaper craftsman tools look like a good deal but
looking at the long term, I've had to replace each one so I'm out both
the
money of the good tool and the money spent on the craftsman. The cost of
a couple craftsman tools that had to be replaced was enough to buy
something better in the first place.
Of course its not just craftsman, I have a worthless Black and Decker
jigsaw and threw away and old skil circular saw a few years ago because I
bought
cheap. But I have learned that buying cheaper tools doesn't save any $
because you have to re-buy them again. I have bought my father three
different cordless drills over the last few years and still have and use
and abuse my 9.6V Makita from 1995. So when he needed another cordless
drill (4th one now) I picked up a Makita and now instead of buying a new
drill every couple years I buy him something else to go along with the
one he has because it actually lasts more than a couple years.
My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you don't need
to upgrade as soon.

While what you say about cheap tools is in general true, it is true of all
brands of cheap tool and not only of Craftsman. And there are many high
quality tools sold under the Craftsman brand at prices similar to those
charged for the same tool under the manufacturer's brand.

Very true, however is the newbie going to be able to tell which crasftman
tools are good? Thats one of the marketing reasons of a brand, if it meets
or exceeds your expectations then it gets known as a good brand. If 9 out
of 10 of the brands products are junk then that hurts the brand name over
all even if they happen to make a good product every now and then.
There are plenty of other brands that may make a good tool or two but allow
their line to have so many bad ones that you would never know it. I have a
worthless black and decker jigsaw sitting in my garage because their name
once stood for quality but no longer does.

Eugene wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first
table saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I was
learning my woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a
Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced
tools, once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of
what you want/need.

I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the first
one with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for wasting the
money on the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more on better
tools and saved a few pieces of wood and some frustration when the tools
didn't perform as well as they should.
In the short term the cheaper craftsman tools look like a good deal but
looking at the long term, I've had to replace each one so I'm out both
the
money of the good tool and the money spent on the craftsman. The cost
of a couple craftsman tools that had to be replaced was enough to buy
something better in the first place.
Of course its not just craftsman, I have a worthless Black and Decker
jigsaw and threw away and old skil circular saw a few years ago because
I bought
cheap. But I have learned that buying cheaper tools doesn't save any $
because you have to re-buy them again. I have bought my father three
different cordless drills over the last few years and still have and use
and abuse my 9.6V Makita from 1995. So when he needed another cordless
drill (4th one now) I picked up a Makita and now instead of buying a new
drill every couple years I buy him something else to go along with the
one he has because it actually lasts more than a couple years.
My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you don't need
to upgrade as soon.

While what you say about cheap tools is in general true, it is true of
all
brands of cheap tool and not only of Craftsman. And there are many high
quality tools sold under the Craftsman brand at prices similar to those
charged for the same tool under the manufacturer's brand.

Very true, however is the newbie going to be able to tell which crasftman
tools are good?

He looks for the "Craftsman Professional" or "Craftsman Industrial" label.

Thats one of the marketing reasons of a brand, if it
meets
or exceeds your expectations then it gets known as a good brand. If 9 out
of 10 of the brands products are junk then that hurts the brand name over
all even if they happen to make a good product every now and then.
There are plenty of other brands that may make a good tool or two but
allow
their line to have so many bad ones that you would never know it. I have
a worthless black and decker jigsaw sitting in my garage because their
name once stood for quality but no longer does.

When did their name stand for quality? It was considered to be crap when I
was a kid and and that was going on half a century ago.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:58:38 +0000, Eugene
wrote:

Has nothing to do with yuppiness. I was about to give up with anything that
required a router out of frustration. But decided it can't be that I'm
that bad so I went and bought a PC and found out it wasn't me screwing up
all that wood, most of the time anyway
Its about using the right tool for the job, a craftsman router is designed
to be used once or twice and sit on the shelf, a better brand that isn't
much more expensive is designed to be used to make things. Same with any
other tools, buy a wrench from wal mart and it won't last if you try to
rebuild an engine but if you just tighten a loose bolt on the swing set it
will probably work fine.
Your would be much better off to buy a used quality tool than a new cheap
tool. I have a nice new almost never used black and decker jigsaw which
won't cut a straight line not matter what kind of blade I feed it so it was
a complete waste of money. So is someone who can't afford to start someone
who has money to throw away? Is it better for someone to spend $100 on a
router, have it ruin a first project and get frustrated and throw it away
and walk away from the hobby that they could have enjoyed?

I must just be lucky.. my ol' craftsman router is as accurate and the
day I got it, and beside occasional use for over 20 years, it spent 3
years in a commercial routing table, edge rounding all day...

"mac davis" wrote in message

I must just be lucky.. my ol' craftsman router is as accurate and the
day I got it, and beside occasional use for over 20 years, it spent 3
years in a commercial routing table, edge rounding all day...


Key Words: 20 years

Older Craftsman tools are better than what they make now.

Ed Pawlowski responds:
"mac davis" wrote in message

I must just be lucky.. my ol' craftsman router is as accurate and the
day I got it, and beside occasional use for over 20 years, it spent 3
years in a commercial routing table, edge rounding all day...


Key Words: 20 years

Older Craftsman tools are better than what they make now.

Some are, some aren't. Case in point: the new Craftsman table saws.

Charlie Self
"There are two ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down, the other
is pulling up." Booker T. Washington

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first
table saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I
was learning my woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a
Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced
tools, once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of
what you want/need.

I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the
first one with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for wasting
the money on the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more on better
tools and saved a few pieces of wood and some frustration when the
tools didn't perform as well as they should.
In the short term the cheaper craftsman tools look like a good deal but
looking at the long term, I've had to replace each one so I'm out both
the
money of the good tool and the money spent on the craftsman. The cost
of a couple craftsman tools that had to be replaced was enough to buy
something better in the first place.
Of course its not just craftsman, I have a worthless Black and Decker
jigsaw and threw away and old skil circular saw a few years ago because
I bought
cheap. But I have learned that buying cheaper tools doesn't save any $
because you have to re-buy them again. I have bought my father three
different cordless drills over the last few years and still have and
use
and abuse my 9.6V Makita from 1995. So when he needed another cordless
drill (4th one now) I picked up a Makita and now instead of buying a
new drill every couple years I buy him something else to go along with
the one he has because it actually lasts more than a couple years.
My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you don't need
to upgrade as soon.

While what you say about cheap tools is in general true, it is true of
all
brands of cheap tool and not only of Craftsman. And there are many high
quality tools sold under the Craftsman brand at prices similar to those
charged for the same tool under the manufacturer's brand.

Very true, however is the newbie going to be able to tell which crasftman
tools are good?

He looks for the "Craftsman Professional" or "Craftsman Industrial" label.

The craftsman router I had was labeled a professional but was anything but.

Thats one of the marketing reasons of a brand, if it
meets
or exceeds your expectations then it gets known as a good brand. If 9
out of 10 of the brands products are junk then that hurts the brand name
over all even if they happen to make a good product every now and then.
There are plenty of other brands that may make a good tool or two but
allow
their line to have so many bad ones that you would never know it. I have
a worthless black and decker jigsaw sitting in my garage because their
name once stood for quality but no longer does.

When did their name stand for quality? It was considered to be crap when
I was a kid and and that was going on half a century ago.

My father still has and uses a corded B&D drill that he bought 30 years ago,
and upgraded the chuck to 1/2" from 3/8" and even has some bigher than 1/2"
bits that he turned the shank down on to fit in the 1/2" chuck. Drills
holes in old truck frames when they turn them into hay wagons and that
drill still runs fine.

mac davis wrote:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:58:38 +0000, Eugene
wrote:

Has nothing to do with yuppiness. I was about to give up with anything
that
required a router out of frustration. But decided it can't be that I'm
that bad so I went and bought a PC and found out it wasn't me screwing up
all that wood, most of the time anyway
Its about using the right tool for the job, a craftsman router is designed
to be used once or twice and sit on the shelf, a better brand that isn't
much more expensive is designed to be used to make things. Same with any
other tools, buy a wrench from wal mart and it won't last if you try to
rebuild an engine but if you just tighten a loose bolt on the swing set it
will probably work fine.
Your would be much better off to buy a used quality tool than a new cheap
tool. I have a nice new almost never used black and decker jigsaw which
won't cut a straight line not matter what kind of blade I feed it so it
was
a complete waste of money. So is someone who can't afford to start
someone who has money to throw away? Is it better for someone to spend
$100 on a router, have it ruin a first project and get frustrated and
throw it away and walk away from the hobby that they could have enjoyed?

I must just be lucky.. my ol' craftsman router is as accurate and the
day I got it, and beside occasional use for over 20 years, it spent 3
years in a commercial routing table, edge rounding all day...
20 years ago they made good stuff. 2-3 years old (like the one I had) and
it won't be

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:40:53 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"mac davis" wrote in message

I must just be lucky.. my ol' craftsman router is as accurate and the
day I got it, and beside occasional use for over 20 years, it spent 3
years in a commercial routing table, edge rounding all day...


Key Words: 20 years

Older Craftsman tools are better than what they make now.

everything was built better in the old days...
(at least that's what I always tell my wife)

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:22:47 +0000, Eugene
wrote:

mac davis wrote:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:58:38 +0000, Eugene
wrote:

Has nothing to do with yuppiness. I was about to give up with anything
that
required a router out of frustration. But decided it can't be that I'm
that bad so I went and bought a PC and found out it wasn't me screwing up
all that wood, most of the time anyway
Its about using the right tool for the job, a craftsman router is designed
to be used once or twice and sit on the shelf, a better brand that isn't
much more expensive is designed to be used to make things. Same with any
other tools, buy a wrench from wal mart and it won't last if you try to
rebuild an engine but if you just tighten a loose bolt on the swing set it
will probably work fine.
Your would be much better off to buy a used quality tool than a new cheap
tool. I have a nice new almost never used black and decker jigsaw which
won't cut a straight line not matter what kind of blade I feed it so it
was
a complete waste of money. So is someone who can't afford to start
someone who has money to throw away? Is it better for someone to spend
$100 on a router, have it ruin a first project and get frustrated and
throw it away and walk away from the hobby that they could have enjoyed?

I must just be lucky.. my ol' craftsman router is as accurate and the
day I got it, and beside occasional use for over 20 years, it spent 3
years in a commercial routing table, edge rounding all day...
20 years ago they made good stuff. 2-3 years old (like the one I had) and
it won't be

no ****... last night, my wife gave me a Craftsman 1/2" cordless drill
driver for an early b-day present... it says "made in china" all over
it..

Eugene wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first
table saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I
was learning my woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a
Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately priced
tools, once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better idea of
what you want/need.

I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the
first one with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for
wasting the money on the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more
on better tools and saved a few pieces of wood and some frustration
when the tools didn't perform as well as they should.
In the short term the cheaper craftsman tools look like a good deal
but looking at the long term, I've had to replace each one so I'm out
both the
money of the good tool and the money spent on the craftsman. The cost
of a couple craftsman tools that had to be replaced was enough to buy
something better in the first place.
Of course its not just craftsman, I have a worthless Black and Decker
jigsaw and threw away and old skil circular saw a few years ago
because I bought
cheap. But I have learned that buying cheaper tools doesn't save any
$
because you have to re-buy them again. I have bought my father three
different cordless drills over the last few years and still have and
use
and abuse my 9.6V Makita from 1995. So when he needed another
cordless drill (4th one now) I picked up a Makita and now instead of
buying a new drill every couple years I buy him something else to go
along with the one he has because it actually lasts more than a couple
years. My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff then you
don't need to upgrade as soon.

While what you say about cheap tools is in general true, it is true of
all
brands of cheap tool and not only of Craftsman. And there are many
high quality tools sold under the Craftsman brand at prices similar to
those charged for the same tool under the manufacturer's brand.

Very true, however is the newbie going to be able to tell which
crasftman tools are good?

He looks for the "Craftsman Professional" or "Craftsman Industrial"
label.

The craftsman router I had was labeled a professional but was anything
but.

So who made it?

Thats one of the marketing reasons of a brand, if it
meets
or exceeds your expectations then it gets known as a good brand. If 9
out of 10 of the brands products are junk then that hurts the brand name
over all even if they happen to make a good product every now and then.
There are plenty of other brands that may make a good tool or two but
allow
their line to have so many bad ones that you would never know it. I
have a worthless black and decker jigsaw sitting in my garage because
their name once stood for quality but no longer does.

When did their name stand for quality? It was considered to be crap when
I was a kid and and that was going on half a century ago.

My father still has and uses a corded B&D drill that he bought 30 years
ago, and upgraded the chuck to 1/2" from 3/8" and even has some bigher
than 1/2"
bits that he turned the shank down on to fit in the 1/2" chuck. Drills
holes in old truck frames when they turn them into hay wagons and that
drill still runs fine.

He's lucky.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"mac davis" wrote in message
...

no ****... last night, my wife gave me a Craftsman 1/2" cordless drill
driver for an early b-day present... it says "made in china" all over
it..


On the plus side you have a wife who buys you power tools. You lucky
bugger.

Fraser

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:08:50 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
wrote:


"mac davis" wrote in message
.. .

no ****... last night, my wife gave me a Craftsman 1/2" cordless drill
driver for an early b-day present... it says "made in china" all over
it..


On the plus side you have a wife who buys you power tools. You lucky
bugger.

Fraser

for sure... not even my b-day until the weekend and she's already
raided my online wish list and got me the drill, a recip saw and an
amplified fm antenna for the shop... no telling WHAT might be arriving
this weekend! lol

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

Eugene wrote:

Herb Robinson wrote:

I too believe Craftsman tools often get an unfair knock. My first
table saw was a Craftsman and it served me well for many years as I
was learning my woodworking skills -- particularly after I added a
Biesemeyer home shop
fence to it. I believe if you start out with these moderately
priced tools, once you are ready to upgrade, you have a much better
idea of what you want/need.

I have used crapsman tools for a few years but after replacing the
first one with a real tool I was then kind of mad at myself for
wasting the money on the craftsman when I could have spent a bit more
on better tools and saved a few pieces of wood and some frustration
when the tools didn't perform as well as they should.
In the short term the cheaper craftsman tools look like a good deal
but looking at the long term, I've had to replace each one so I'm out
both the
money of the good tool and the money spent on the craftsman. The
cost of a couple craftsman tools that had to be replaced was enough
to buy something better in the first place.
Of course its not just craftsman, I have a worthless Black and Decker
jigsaw and threw away and old skil circular saw a few years ago
because I bought
cheap. But I have learned that buying cheaper tools doesn't save any
$
because you have to re-buy them again. I have bought my father three
different cordless drills over the last few years and still have and
use
and abuse my 9.6V Makita from 1995. So when he needed another
cordless drill (4th one now) I picked up a Makita and now instead of
buying a new drill every couple years I buy him something else to go
along with the one he has because it actually lasts more than a
couple years. My point is if you don't start with the cheap stuff
then you don't need to upgrade as soon.

While what you say about cheap tools is in general true, it is true of
all
brands of cheap tool and not only of Craftsman. And there are many
high quality tools sold under the Craftsman brand at prices similar to
those charged for the same tool under the manufacturer's brand.

Very true, however is the newbie going to be able to tell which
crasftman tools are good?

He looks for the "Craftsman Professional" or "Craftsman Industrial"
label.

The craftsman router I had was labeled a professional but was anything
but.

So who made it?

Ryobi

Thats one of the marketing reasons of a brand, if it
meets
or exceeds your expectations then it gets known as a good brand. If 9
out of 10 of the brands products are junk then that hurts the brand
name over all even if they happen to make a good product every now and
then. There are plenty of other brands that may make a good tool or two
but allow
their line to have so many bad ones that you would never know it. I
have a worthless black and decker jigsaw sitting in my garage because
their name once stood for quality but no longer does.

When did their name stand for quality? It was considered to be crap
when I was a kid and and that was going on half a century ago.

My father still has and uses a corded B&D drill that he bought 30 years
ago, and upgraded the chuck to 1/2" from 3/8" and even has some bigher
than 1/2"
bits that he turned the shank down on to fit in the 1/2" chuck. Drills
holes in old truck frames when they turn them into hay wagons and that
drill still runs fine.

He's lucky.

Well the B&D of 30 years ago were better quality than those of today, as
were the Craftsman.