On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 03:23:23 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message

Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
(yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
wood
as part of the construction.

I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either

I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster.
IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine
furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is
because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that
can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did them
with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have just
as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I
chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.

What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the
destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.

I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern shop.
Ed

Ten to one says most of them would break out in a big old grin, and
latch onto anything and everything that works well and makes the job
easier. Because something is "tradtional" does not always mean that
it is better. Quality is Quality, regardless of the method used to
produce it, and I just can't believe that a well-jointed, solidly
built piece of furniture with a fine finish and attention to detail
made with some manufactured materials and power tools could be
considered somehow inferior to an equivilent piece of work crafted in
a more tradtional fashion. After all, I doubt those old masters
turned up their noses at chisels because back in the mists of time,
people had to use broken bits of rock to make things.

Sure, there's plenty of fun to be had sticking to nostalgic ways of
doing things, but there's nothing wrong with using what you've got!

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:41:42 -0400, "Al Reid"
wrote:

I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper and knockdown hardware.

I'd use knockdown hardware on fine furniture. There's nothing about
"fine" that implies traditional and excludes contemporary.
Portability isn't contradictory to quality.

Besides which, some of the finest furniture ever built (18th century
secretaries and chest-on-chests) used metal knock-down fittings to
split in two for shipping and installation.

--
Smert' spamionam

Not to mention Thomas Jefferson's bookcases.

Mankind has been making portable furniture for as long as we've been making furniture.

That said, I'm still not sure how I feel about biscuits in fine furniture.

--RC

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:41:42 -0400, "Al Reid"
wrote:

I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper and knockdown hardware.

I'd use knockdown hardware on fine furniture. There's nothing about
"fine" that implies traditional and excludes contemporary.
Portability isn't contradictory to quality.

Besides which, some of the finest furniture ever built (18th century
secretaries and chest-on-chests) used metal knock-down fittings to
split in two for shipping and installation.

--
Smert' spamionam

Not to mention Thomas Jefferson's bookcases.

Mankind has been making portable furniture for as long as we've been making furniture.

That said, I'm still not sure how I feel about biscuits in fine furniture.

--RC

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message

Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
(yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
wood
as part of the construction.

I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either

I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster.
IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine
furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is
because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that
can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did them
with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have just
as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I
chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.

What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the
destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.

I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern shop.
Ed

OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners. (I'm less
enamored of their habit of nailing things together.)

Thinking about it a little more, I believe that for me the matter comes down to
how I feel about the piece I'm making. If a technique doesn't 'feel' right for
the piece, I'd prefer not to use it. Thus, I prefer loose tenons to biscuits and
handcut dovetails to routed ones.

Of course I can afford this attitude because I am strictly a hobbyist when it
comes to furniture. For me the most valuable product of that sort of woodworking
is the time spent working wood. We have so little room in our house that any
major pieces I make have to be given away.

--RC

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message

Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like
using plywood for the top. Don't get me wrong...I'm no master craftsman
(yet). But there's just something wrong in my mind with using pressed
wood
as part of the construction.

I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either

I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster.
IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine
furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is
because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that
can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did them
with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have just
as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I
chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.

What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the
destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.

I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern shop.
Ed

OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners. (I'm less
enamored of their habit of nailing things together.)

Thinking about it a little more, I believe that for me the matter comes down to
how I feel about the piece I'm making. If a technique doesn't 'feel' right for
the piece, I'd prefer not to use it. Thus, I prefer loose tenons to biscuits and
handcut dovetails to routed ones.

Of course I can afford this attitude because I am strictly a hobbyist when it
comes to furniture. For me the most valuable product of that sort of woodworking
is the time spent working wood. We have so little room in our house that any
major pieces I make have to be given away.

--RC

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:22:37 GMT, Rick Cook
wrote:


OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners.

No you're not ! Early medieval nails are few and far between.
You'll see more treenails than iron nails.

The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:22:37 GMT, Rick Cook
wrote:


OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners.

No you're not ! Early medieval nails are few and far between.
You'll see more treenails than iron nails.

The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.

Al Spohn wrote:

In article ,
says...
"Todd Fatheree" writes:

Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
biscuits?

A biscuit is just a loose tenon. A biscuit joiner makes the mortices
for the loose tenon.

scott

But are the post-glue up expansion characteristics also true of tenons?

In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.

- Al

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Al Spohn wrote:

In article ,
says...
"Todd Fatheree" writes:

Is there anyone besides me that has a philosophical problem with using
biscuits?

A biscuit is just a loose tenon. A biscuit joiner makes the mortices
for the loose tenon.

scott

But are the post-glue up expansion characteristics also true of tenons?

In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.

- Al

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Rick Cook wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:41:42 -0400, "Al Reid"
wrote:

I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper
and knockdown hardware.

I'd use knockdown hardware on fine furniture. There's nothing about
"fine" that implies traditional and excludes contemporary.
Portability isn't contradictory to quality.

Besides which, some of the finest furniture ever built (18th century
secretaries and chest-on-chests) used metal knock-down fittings to
split in two for shipping and installation.

--
Smert' spamionam

Not to mention Thomas Jefferson's bookcases.

Mankind has been making portable furniture for as long as we've been
making furniture.

That said, I'm still not sure how I feel about biscuits in fine furniture.

They're a tool, like any tool. You use them where they're the best
available solution to the problem, and don't use them where there's another
that is better.

Don't get hung up on "this is used in fine furniture and that isn't". Use
whatever is most appropriate to the problem at hand.

--RC

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Rick Cook wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:41:42 -0400, "Al Reid"
wrote:

I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper
and knockdown hardware.

I'd use knockdown hardware on fine furniture. There's nothing about
"fine" that implies traditional and excludes contemporary.
Portability isn't contradictory to quality.

Besides which, some of the finest furniture ever built (18th century
secretaries and chest-on-chests) used metal knock-down fittings to
split in two for shipping and installation.

--
Smert' spamionam

Not to mention Thomas Jefferson's bookcases.

Mankind has been making portable furniture for as long as we've been
making furniture.

That said, I'm still not sure how I feel about biscuits in fine furniture.

They're a tool, like any tool. You use them where they're the best
available solution to the problem, and don't use them where there's another
that is better.

Don't get hung up on "this is used in fine furniture and that isn't". Use
whatever is most appropriate to the problem at hand.

--RC

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:05:38 +0100, Andy Dingley
calmly ranted:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:22:37 GMT, Rick Cook
wrote:


OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners.

No you're not ! Early medieval nails are few and far between.
You'll see more treenails than iron nails.

The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.

Hmmm, is it raining heavily over there?


--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:05:38 +0100, Andy Dingley
calmly ranted:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:22:37 GMT, Rick Cook
wrote:


OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners.

No you're not ! Early medieval nails are few and far between.
You'll see more treenails than iron nails.

The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.

Hmmm, is it raining heavily over there?


--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:37:22 -0500, Prometheus
wrote:

snip
After all, I doubt those old masters turned up their noses at chisels because back in the mists of time,
people had to use broken bits of rock to make things.

Sure, there's plenty of fun to be had sticking to nostalgic ways of
doing things, but there's nothing wrong with using what you've got!

Well said!


Mac

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:37:22 -0500, Prometheus
wrote:

snip
After all, I doubt those old masters turned up their noses at chisels because back in the mists of time,
people had to use broken bits of rock to make things.

Sure, there's plenty of fun to be had sticking to nostalgic ways of
doing things, but there's nothing wrong with using what you've got!

Well said!


Mac

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.

But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.

But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:05:54 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.

But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?

not that I can see... (pun intended)



Mac

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:05:54 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead of
expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.

But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?

not that I can see... (pun intended)



Mac

Why not? If you taper the mortise properly you have a hidden dovetail which
gives mechanical hold in addition to adhesive hold.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In a sense it's just an extension of the idea of a wedged tenon--instead
of
expanding it with a wedge it's expanded with the moisture from the glue.

But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:31:03 -0400, "George" george@least wrote:

But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?

Why not? If you taper the mortise properly you have a hidden dovetail which
gives mechanical hold in addition to adhesive hold.

Because you can't ever dismantle them. Definite no-no in fine
furniture, because a reasonable definition of "fine" is that you're
expecting someone to still care about looking after it in 200 years
time.

And you don't need either tapered mortices or glue.

--
Smert' spamionam

Your definition of fine?

I can make KD furniture too. Does that make it "fine?"

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:31:03 -0400, "George" george@least wrote:

But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?

Why not? If you taper the mortise properly you have a hidden dovetail
which
gives mechanical hold in addition to adhesive hold.

Because you can't ever dismantle them. Definite no-no in fine
furniture, because a reasonable definition of "fine" is that you're
expecting someone to still care about looking after it in 200 years
time.

And you don't need either tapered mortices or glue.

--
Smert' spamionam

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:22:37 GMT, Rick Cook
wrote:


OTOH if your definition of 'fine furniture' includes pieces in the early
medieval style, you're going to use _lots_ of metal fasteners.

No you're not ! Early medieval nails are few and far between.
You'll see more treenails than iron nails.

The ark I did yesterday has no glue nor iron anywhere near it.

I was thinking of the strapwork and hinges. In fact it's difficult to do
replicas of early medieval chests and most other kinds of furniture unless
you have access to a blacksmith shop.

--RC

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:08:18 GMT, Rick Cook
wrote:

I was thinking of the strapwork and hinges. In fact it's difficult to do
replicas of early medieval chests and most other kinds of furniture unless

You mean like this ?
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/boxes/sarah/

I'd still regard that style as late medieval though. That chest itself
is more like typical 18th century work in England, although it's based
on a 13th century Baltic example.

Most chests, and almost everything early medieval, were devoid of
ironwork. No strapwork, and hinges were often just a nailed leather
strip, or a couple of snipe bill hinges (interlocked hairpins).

I took a look around the Red Lodge again last week.
http://www.bristol-city.gov.uk/mus/redlod.html
Lots of chests, almost no metal in any of them. A few had the bases
nailed on, but in at least one of those cases that was later
repairwork after a grooved side had split out.

The idea of the heavily strapped chest doesn't really show up until
the Armada chests (there's a nice example in Abergavenny castle
museum). These were the paychests of the Spanish Armada and had hugely
complex locks that filled the entire lid, with strapping all around.
16th C though.

you have access to a blacksmith shop.

http://codesmiths.com/shed/armour/

The other problem is finding some iron to work. For those helms it's
easy enough to cheat with steel, but strapwork doesn't really look
right unless you used iron.

I was also working on a chest for LARP-camping last week. An old
1900-ish joiner's chest that I was given, with a bunch of repair work
to it, some forged steel drop handles at each end and an upholstered
top as a bench seat. Pictures when I've done the upholstery.

--
Smert' spamionam

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:31:03 -0400, "George" george@least wrote:

But do foxed (blind wedged) tenons have any place in fine furniture ?

Why not? If you taper the mortise properly you have a hidden dovetail
which gives mechanical hold in addition to adhesive hold.

Because you can't ever dismantle them. Definite no-no in fine
furniture, because a reasonable definition of "fine" is that you're
expecting someone to still care about looking after it in 200 years
time.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite see your point. You can't dismantle a solid
board either so I guess wood has no place in "fine furniture" by your
definition.

And you don't need either tapered mortices or glue.


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:08:18 GMT, Rick Cook
wrote:

I was thinking of the strapwork and hinges. In fact it's difficult to do
replicas of early medieval chests and most other kinds of furniture unless

You mean like this ?
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/boxes/sarah/



I'd still regard that style as late medieval though. That chest itself
is more like typical 18th century work in England, although it's based
on a 13th century Baltic example.

Actually more like this:
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/c...ux/champ04.jpg

We have a number of examples of this sort of chest with the elaborate ironwork
from pre-14th century England. (See also Daniel Diehl's 'Constructing Medieval
Furniture' for additional examples of ironwork on furniture, including a chest
from Oxford.)



Most chests, and almost everything early medieval, were devoid of
ironwork. No strapwork, and hinges were often just a nailed leather
strip, or a couple of snipe bill hinges (interlocked hairpins).

Well, I don't know about 'most chests', but certainly not all of them by a long
shot, judging by the examples remaining in cathedrals, colleges, etc. You'll
also note that most of the strapwork, hinges, etc. was held on with nails.
Undoubtedly there were a lot of chests and other pieces made without ironwork
of any sort.



I took a look around the Red Lodge again last week.
http://www.bristol-city.gov.uk/mus/redlod.html
Lots of chests, almost no metal in any of them. A few had the bases
nailed on, but in at least one of those cases that was later
repairwork after a grooved side had split out.

The idea of the heavily strapped chest doesn't really show up until
the Armada chests (there's a nice example in Abergavenny castle
museum). These were the paychests of the Spanish Armada and had hugely
complex locks that filled the entire lid, with strapping all around.
16th C though.

Well, no. In England at least the heavily strapped chest is a design that goes
back before 1000 AD



you have access to a blacksmith shop.

http://codesmiths.com/shed/armour/

Nice work! However you can make a barrel helm of that pattern without access to
a blacksmith shop. The metalwork is pretty straightforward and mostly bending,
drilling and some punching. (The punching is better done hot, but it doesn't
have to be.) We made a several of them 30 or so years ago with not much more
than hammers and an old stump. (The first one we cut out with cold chisels. The
next one we used a saber saw with metal cutting blades. I really envy you with
the plasma cutter.)

Unless you're willing to settle for really simple designs for the strapwork,
you need the ability to work the metal hot, especially for the splitting and
bending. In other words, a blacksmith's shop.



The other problem is finding some iron to work. For those helms it's
easy enough to cheat with steel, but strapwork doesn't really look
right unless you used iron.

That is a problem indeed. Around here there's just about none to be had because
this area wasn't settled until after 1850. (Well, there was one maniac I knew
who used to get iron by pulling the spikes out of the supporting timbers in old
mines. That takes more -- ah, 'dedication' than I've got.)



I was also working on a chest for LARP-camping last week. An old
1900-ish joiner's chest that I was given, with a bunch of repair work
to it, some forged steel drop handles at each end and an upholstered
top as a bench seat. Pictures when I've done the upholstery.

--
Smert' spamionam

Looking forward to seeing it.

BTW: I always understood that an 'ark' was simply a chest with a peaked top,
like a roof. Is there something more to the definition than that?

--RC

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:27:36 GMT, Rick Cook
wrote:

We have a number of examples of this sort of chest with the elaborate ironwork
from pre-14th century England.

There are plenty of examples of _elaborate_ ironwork, just not many of
simple ironwork. Strapping like the example you showed is like
studded iron nails in the door of your castle - it's not for use, it's
for decoration. Conspicuous consumption to show that you were rich
enough to spend money on expensive ironwork.

(See also Daniel Diehl's 'Constructing Medieval
Furniture' for additional examples of ironwork on furniture, including a chest
from Oxford.)

Not a very good reference, IMHO. It's OK as a constructional guide to
one or two pieces, but it does nothing to put them in a greater
context.

I'd also never buy any book that encourages the making of yet another
bloody Glastonbury chair ! I know chairs weren't common in period,
but there was more than one style.


judging by the examples remaining in cathedrals, colleges, etc.

There's also a certain skewing as to which examples survived.


Well, no. In England at least the heavily strapped chest is a design that goes
back before 1000 AD

There are strapped chests back into the Norse period, but I've not
seen anything like an Armada chest until then. They're pretty much
solid iron - not just strapping to hold it together, but an interlaced
close-spaced strapping that would prevent you smashing it with an axe.
The entire lid is also filled with multiple locks.


Nice work! However you can make a barrel helm of that pattern without access to
a blacksmith shop.

Even though I worked these cold, it's a blacksmith's shop where I did
them.
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/sundial/
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/smithing/

The metalwork is pretty straightforward and mostly bending,
drilling and some punching.

No punching for these - the breaths were plasma-cut from a stencil.
I'm too lazy to punch holes !


BTW: I always understood that an 'ark' was simply a chest with a peaked top,
like a roof. Is there something more to the definition than that?

Not as far as I know. It's a top that's not flat, but has protruding
end plates rather than being coopered.