Anyone knows a book on doing drawings?

Like tech stuff, it can be a room but also an object like
a nail puller or whatever,

I.e., a book that attempts to help the reader teach
him/herself doing it... with terminology, methods
and examples, tools perhaps and - ah, you get it

TIA

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On 2/25/2021 10:09 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Anyone knows a book on doing drawings?

Like tech stuff, it can be a room but also an object like
a nail puller or whatever,

I.e., a book that attempts to help the reader teach
him/herself doing it... with terminology, methods
and examples, tools perhaps and - ah, you get it

TIA



Sketchup for Dummies

Leon wrote:

Anyone knows a book on doing drawings? Like tech stuff, it
can be a room but also an object like a nail puller or
whatever, I.e., a book that attempts to help the reader
teach him/herself doing it... with terminology, methods and
examples, tools perhaps and - ah, you get it TIA

Sketchup for Dummies

OK. No, by hand!

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:09:50 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Anyone knows a book on doing drawings?

Like tech stuff, it can be a room but also an object like
a nail puller or whatever,

I.e., a book that attempts to help the reader teach
him/herself doing it... with terminology, methods
and examples, tools perhaps and - ah, you get it

Are you looking for paper drawings or electronic drawings, and if
electronic with what software?

J. Clarke wrote:

Are you looking for paper drawings or electronic drawings,
and if electronic with what software?

No software.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

In rec.woodworking, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Anyone knows a book on doing drawings?

Like tech stuff, it can be a room but also an object like
a nail puller or whatever,

I.e., a book that attempts to help the reader teach
him/herself doing it... with terminology, methods
and examples, tools perhaps and - ah, you get it

Notes on technical sketching and free hand lettering for engineering
students

Preview:
https://archive.org/details/notesontechnical02smit

Buy:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Boo...-srp1-_-title1

Mechanical drawing; technique and working methods, for technical
students

Preview:
https://archive.org/details/mechanicaldraw00adamrich

Buy:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Boo...-srp1-_-title1

Essentials of drafting; a text and problem book for apprentice, trade
and evening technical schools

Preview:
https://archive.org/details/essentialsofdraf01sven/

Buy:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Boo...-srp1-_-title1


A Manual of Engineering Drawing for Students and Draftsmen

Preview:
https://archive.org/details/amanualengineer01frengoog

Buy:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Boo...-srp1-_-title2

Elijah
------
has an eight edition copy of that last one

Sonny wrote:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in
college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the
text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store
for something appropriate.

Heh, I live in Sweden, university stuff is good (great) but
too difficult for me or too big of an undertaking with respect
to this particular activity I should say, and the college, or
corresponding, stuff is... it isn't good.

Like a technology book, it can begin like this:

Maybe you didn't realize it, but technology systems are
everywhere. From you cellphone to the subway/underground of
our nation's capital.

I can't wade thru stuff like that because it makes me wanna
punch into a wall or something... just horrible.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:50:51 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Sonny wrote:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in
college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the
text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store
for something appropriate.

Heh, I live in Sweden, university stuff is good (great) but
too difficult for me or too big of an undertaking with respect
to this particular activity I should say, and the college, or
corresponding, stuff is... it isn't good.

Like a technology book, it can begin like this:

Maybe you didn't realize it, but technology systems are
everywhere. From you cellphone to the subway/underground of
our nation's capital.

I can't wade thru stuff like that because it makes me wanna
punch into a wall or something... just horrible.

Woodworking for Dummies: First download Sketchup...

On 2/25/2021 1:30 PM, Sonny wrote:
Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

The place I would start looking is in the nearest Used Book store.
Possible your local Library book sale.

If you are in a hurry, look on Ebay, Abe Books, or some of he online
used books sties.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:38:01 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

Are you looking for paper drawings or electronic drawings,
and if electronic with what software?

No software.

Sounds like what you're looking for is something akin to the drafting
text my mother learned out of at Pratt Institute in the '20s (geez,
has it been a century since she lived in New York? Wow.). It's long
lost and I can't remember the title but it was a very thorough
education in technical drawing.

krw wrote:

Woodworking for Dummies: First download Sketchup...

Is that carpentry or construction BTW? Carpentry, right?
Sounds more like it. Wood shop (AmE). Or can it be both?

I'm into construction, by all means, Sketchup might be useful
for that as well tho, not saying...

Not familiar with it.

Anyway I do this kind of stuff

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/blog/tr...eck-winter.jpg

so it is pretty easy but I'd still like good drawings and maps
to facilitate communication and information
storing/sharing/retreival...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

knuttle wrote:

The place I would start looking is in the nearest Used Book
store. Possible your local Library book sale.

Do you have a specific title or ISBN to look for, a book you
yourself read and thought was great in this field?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

J. Clarke wrote:

It's long lost and I can't remember the title

That's gonna be a problem

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 23:32:49 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

krw wrote:

Woodworking for Dummies: First download Sketchup...

Is that carpentry or construction BTW? Carpentry, right?
Sounds more like it. Wood shop (AmE). Or can it be both?

I use if for both. It's not a CAD package, rather a 3-D modeling
program. You build a model, then pull the dimensions from the model.

I'm into construction, by all means, Sketchup might be useful
for that as well tho, not saying...

Nope. It's great for woodworking, particularly anything like
cabinetry. I use it for construction around the house to get
dimensions right. Starting from where I am now to where I want to be
isn't always straight forward.

Not familiar with it.

Anyway I do this kind of stuff

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/blog/tr...eck-winter.jpg

so it is pretty easy but I'd still like good drawings and maps
to facilitate communication and information
storing/sharing/retreival...

It would work well for that, though I think you'd need to model the
trees first. I don't know how that'll work after the trees are
loaded. Maybe others here would have ideas. It's widely used here.

On 2/25/2021 4:34 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
knuttle wrote:

The place I would start looking is in the nearest Used Book
store. Possible your local Library book sale.

Do you have a specific title or ISBN to look for, a book you
yourself read and thought was great in this field?




I was formally trained for architectural and mechanical drawings almost
50 years ago and there was no text book used then.
I switched to CAD drawing in 1986.
There will likely be no recent publications for manual drafting and they
will be scarce.

You might do web search.

Leon wrote:
On 2/25/2021 4:34 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
knuttle wrote:

The place I would start looking is in the nearest Used Book
store. Possible your local Library book sale.

Do you have a specific title or ISBN to look for, a book you
yourself read and thought was great in this field?




I was formally trained for architectural and mechanical drawings almost
50 years ago and there was no text book used then.
I switched to CAD drawing in 1986.
There will likely be no recent publications for manual drafting and they
will be scarce.

I got one that was recommended here. I could look up the title, but
that's not really important. I just wanted to mention that the used
book stores (abebooks.com, etc.) have these books-and they are priced
right. Such a book will probably have been published between the 50s and
60s. I can come up with the title if desired.


You might do web search.

Leon wrote:

I was formally trained for architectural and mechanical
drawings almost 50 years ago and there was no text book used
then. I switched to CAD drawing in 1986. There will likely
be no recent publications for manual drafting and they will
be scarce.

Well, it doesn't have to be that recent. Surely, there should
be some book, still?

As for CAD, yeah, I get it people do that, pros and skilled
amateurs alike, absolutely nothing wrong doing that if one has
great software and setup.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Bill wrote:

I got one that was recommended here. I could look up the
title, but that's not really important. I just wanted to
mention that the used book stores (abebooks.com, etc.) have
these books-and they are priced right. Such a book will
probably have been published between the 50s and 60s. I can
come up with the title if desired.

Yes, please do 2nd-hand books are great. As are sometimes
brand new books. And even future books I guess Don't judge
a book by its publishing year

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Eli the Bearded wrote:

Elijah has an eight edition copy of that last one

You mean "A Manual of Engineering Drawing for Students and
Draftsmen"? You read it as well? Is it good?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

In rec.woodworking, Emanuel Berg wrote:
You mean "A Manual of Engineering Drawing for Students and
Draftsmen"? You read it as well? Is it good?

I have the eighth edition (1953 copyright) of that one. It's a "discard"
from a high school, looks never used by students. I've only read small
parts, but it looks good to me. Chances are, any technical book that
goes through eight editions (in this case each about five years apart)
is well respected by someone.

I included links to archive.org so you could actually look at the
content without a physical copy in front of you. Although their copy is
an older edition than I saw for sale.

I generally just do the minimal drawings I need to understand a project,
which are far less detailed or sophisticated at real engineering
drawings, but that has worked out for me. Learning to do better is
something I've considered, which is how I happen to have the book.

Elijah
------
likes browsing at archive.org

Emanuel Berg on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:09:50 +0100
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
Anyone knows a book on doing drawings?

Yes.

Like tech stuff, it can be a room but also an object like
a nail puller or whatever,

Ah, sounds like you want something like _Fundamentals of Design_
is the book I recall. I also recall that I could get the subsection
for the class at the bookstore, or get the hardback revised version
(from which the college extracted the part they used) for less
including S&H.

I.e., a book that attempts to help the reader teach
him/herself doing it... with terminology, methods
and examples, tools perhaps and - ah, you get it

Technical Drawing is one of those areas where it is as much about
how to think about what it is you are drawing, and for what reason, as
it is about the technicalities of the drawing.
In short, if you just need to know the shape and dimensions, a
'rough' sketch can suffice. But 'blue prints' have a lot of technical
requirements, because they _are_ the legal description of the
item/part. E.G., I had a drawing for a part I was making, and while
the one row of holes had each hole in a line, and all 3" apart, there
was no dimension where on the board that line was located. Is it 1
inch from the top? right down the middle? corner to corner?
"Technically" as long as the holes were in a line and on the board "it
was right" - never mind if they don't line up with the other part.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

Sonny on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

Check your local tech school, too.

--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

On 2/26/2021 5:12 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, Emanuel Berg wrote:
You mean "A Manual of Engineering Drawing for Students and
Draftsmen"? You read it as well? Is it good?

I have the eighth edition (1953 copyright) of that one. It's a "discard"
from a high school, looks never used by students. I've only read small
parts, but it looks good to me. Chances are, any technical book that
goes through eight editions (in this case each about five years apart)
is well respected by someone.

I included links to archive.org so you could actually look at the
content without a physical copy in front of you. Although their copy is
an older edition than I saw for sale.

I generally just do the minimal drawings I need to understand a project,
which are far less detailed or sophisticated at real engineering
drawings, but that has worked out for me. Learning to do better is
something I've considered, which is how I happen to have the book.

Elijah
------
likes browsing at archive.org

Many people do not realize it but there are many old books on line for
the Download. I have downloaded a couple dozen old county histories
that were written in the late 18 and early 1900's

I did not download it but there is one that tells how to build a modern
sanitary out house, in case you were thinking about building an outhouse.

I usually do a search for the book and title if I have it or on the subject.

On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:15:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Sonny on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

Check your local tech school, too.

I would doubt that drafting is taught anywhere anymore, any more than
advanced abacus accounting is.

Emanuel Berg on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:09:50 +0100
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
Anyone knows a book on doing drawings?

Like tech stuff, it can be a room but also an object like
a nail puller or whatever,

I.e., a book that attempts to help the reader teach
him/herself doing it... with terminology, methods
and examples, tools perhaps and - ah, you get it

TIA


Aha. I found my CAD library book files

_Sketching, Drawing techniques for production designers_
Koos Eissen & Roselien Steur
ISBN 978 906 369 171 4

"An invaluable skill for product designers and an integral part of
the design process, the ability to sketch or illustrate a concept may
mean the difference between rejection and realization. Sketching is an
in-depth look the traditional elements that make up a successful
sketch. Includes numerous examples contributed by some of the worlds
most renowned product designers. This book is essential both for
aspiring students and established designers looking to brush up on
their skills. Sections covered include: side view sketches,
perspective drawing, simplifying shape, elementary geometric shapes,
special notice at ellipses, rounding, cross-sections, ideation,
explanatory drawings, surface and texture, light and ambiance and
surroundings."

_Sketching the Basics_
ISBN 978 90 6369 253 7
»This book is aimed at people who want step-by-step guidance in
learning how to sketch. But we could not resist including examples
from designers and design offices around the world. By looking at
how they work we link theory and everyday practice, and we hope
that these case studies inspire young designers.«
Roselien and Koos, April 2011«
www.sketching.nl
www.SketchingForDesigners.com


Andrew Loomis has "Fun with a Pencil" from 1939.
isbn:9780857687609
»Andrew Loomis (1892-1959) is revered amongst artists - including
comics superstar Alex Ross - for his mastery of drawing. His first
book, Fun With a Pencil, published in 1939 is a wonderfully crafted
and engaging introduction to drawing, cartooning, and capturing the
essence of a subject all while having fun. With delightful
step-by-step instruction from Professor Blook, Loomis's charming alter
ego on the page.«


_Working Drawings Handbook_
Keith Styles & Andrew Bichard
Routledge
isbn: 9781135140243,
»Covering every aspect of drawing preparation, both manual and
computer-aided, this comprehensive manual is an essential tool for
students, architects and architectural technologists. Showing what
information is required on each type of document, how drawings relate
to specifications, and how to organize and document your work, this
handbook presents a fully illustrated guide to all the key methods and
techniques. Thoroughly revised and redesigned, this fourth edition has
brand new computer-generated drawings throughout and is updated to
cover all aspects of computer use in the modern building design
process.«



The main issue is that to get good at drafting, drawing or
sketching, you're just going to have to do it. A lot. There is only
so much you can learn from books, but your hand and eye are going to
have to work together, to get on paper what you are seeing. Regardless
of whether it is something in front of you, or "in your mind's eye."
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

Emanuel Berg on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 22:44:52 +0100
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
Leon wrote:

I was formally trained for architectural and mechanical
drawings almost 50 years ago and there was no text book used
then. I switched to CAD drawing in 1986. There will likely
be no recent publications for manual drafting and they will
be scarce.

Well, it doesn't have to be that recent. Surely, there should
be some book, still?

As for CAD, yeah, I get it people do that, pros and skilled
amateurs alike, absolutely nothing wrong doing that if one has
great software and setup.

For one off drawings, it is a toss up: doing it manually or
learning CAD. The main advantage to CAD is that you can make
revisions a whole lot easier. You don't have to make a complete new
drawing.

If you really learn a CAD system, it becomes a "very easy" means
of getting a "drawing" on "paper".
But even then, you will start with a proverbial sketch on a
cocktail napkin. (In my case, it was a hospital cafeteria napkin. I
solved Bill's manufacturing problem with one easy setup. He looked at
the sketch, said "that's it - sign and date it!" For all I know it is
still in the archives.)
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:00:58 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:15:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Sonny on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

Check your local tech school, too.

I would doubt that drafting is taught anywhere anymore, any more than
advanced abacus accounting is.

One would be surprised. But some of the tech schools will have
some fundamentals textbooks.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 19:25:35 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:00:58 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:15:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Sonny on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

Check your local tech school, too.

I would doubt that drafting is taught anywhere anymore, any more than
advanced abacus accounting is.

One would be surprised. But some of the tech schools will have
some fundamentals textbooks.

I can't imagine that at tech school, in particular, would spend time
on such things. They have a very limited amount of time to train
students how to do real work. High schools, maybe. They teach
nothing useful anymore. Plenty of time, though wokism does take much
of the day.

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 22:57:14 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 19:25:35 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:00:58 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:15:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Sonny on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

Check your local tech school, too.

I would doubt that drafting is taught anywhere anymore, any more than
advanced abacus accounting is.

One would be surprised. But some of the tech schools will have
some fundamentals textbooks.

I can't imagine that at tech school, in particular, would spend time
on such things. They have a very limited amount of time to train
students how to do real work. High schools, maybe. They teach
nothing useful anymore. Plenty of time, though wokism does take much
of the day.

Depends on the school. Renton Tech spends two years teaching you
the basics of Machine Technology, one year on manual machines getting
some idea what is happening, then one year learning CNC programming.
(Start out by plotting all the points for the tool path 'the rest is
easy'). If nothing else, as the instructors if they have any
recommendations.

I got 'essence of the revised version' of Fundamentals of Design
at the Community college, looked it up online. The book store had a
notorious markup. OTOH, they were less on the welding references than
buying them direct from the company.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

Emanuel Berg wrote:
Bill wrote:

I got one that was recommended here. I could look up the
title, but that's not really important. I just wanted to
mention that the used book stores (abebooks.com, etc.) have
these books-and they are priced right. Such a book will
probably have been published between the 50s and 60s. I can
come up with the title if desired.

Yes, please do 2nd-hand books are great. As are sometimes
brand new books. And even future books I guess Don't judge
a book by its publishing year


I think it was Lew Hodgett, who was a valuable contributing member
of this newsgroup, and boat lover, for many years, who recommended the
following book to me: "Fundamentals of Engineering Drawing", by French
and Vierck, McGraw-Hill, 1960. I have the 2nd edition, published in
1966. It will even help you to compute the values of the
trigonometric functions, sin(x), etc., using your slide rule!
The drawings in the book are at a level suitable for beginning
mechanical engineers! Now that I have it out, I think I'll review it
some! : ) Lew also liked the woodworking book, "Boat Joinery &
Cabinetmaking", and I collected that book too, and even bought a 2nd
copy to give to a friend. I caught on early in my woodworking hobby
that books are cheaper than tools, though I have my fair share of both.
Lew is still missed!

Bill

On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:52:39 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 22:57:14 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 19:25:35 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:00:58 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:15:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Sonny on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

Check your local tech school, too.

I would doubt that drafting is taught anywhere anymore, any more than
advanced abacus accounting is.

One would be surprised. But some of the tech schools will have
some fundamentals textbooks.

I can't imagine that at tech school, in particular, would spend time
on such things. They have a very limited amount of time to train
students how to do real work. High schools, maybe. They teach
nothing useful anymore. Plenty of time, though wokism does take much
of the day.

Depends on the school. Renton Tech spends two years teaching you
the basics of Machine Technology, one year on manual machines getting
some idea what is happening, then one year learning CNC programming.
(Start out by plotting all the points for the tool path 'the rest is
easy'). If nothing else, as the instructors if they have any
recommendations.

OK, but did any of it involve a drafting pencil?

I got 'essence of the revised version' of Fundamentals of Design
at the Community college, looked it up online. The book store had a
notorious markup. OTOH, they were less on the welding references than
buying them direct from the company.

I remember my brother complaining about his text books in college. At
the time ('65ish) over $100 each, four or five per semester. As a
reference, tuition was something like $200 per semester. The books
were written (poorly) by his professors and, of course, required
material. BTW, that translates to something like $3K - $6K per book,
today. Mine, five years later, were "cheap" by comparison. Only
$30-$50, more on the $30 side.

on Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:14:58 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:52:39 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 22:57:14 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 19:25:35 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:00:58 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:15:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Sonny on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

Check your local tech school, too.

I would doubt that drafting is taught anywhere anymore, any more than
advanced abacus accounting is.

One would be surprised. But some of the tech schools will have
some fundamentals textbooks.

I can't imagine that at tech school, in particular, would spend time
on such things. They have a very limited amount of time to train
students how to do real work. High schools, maybe. They teach
nothing useful anymore. Plenty of time, though wokism does take much
of the day.

Depends on the school. Renton Tech spends two years teaching you
the basics of Machine Technology, one year on manual machines getting
some idea what is happening, then one year learning CNC programming.
(Start out by plotting all the points for the tool path 'the rest is
easy'). If nothing else, as the instructors if they have any
recommendations.

OK, but did any of it involve a drafting pencil?

Don't remember ... oh wait, a lot of the fundamentals of design
class did take place on paper. OTGH: "Last time I took drafting, it
was with pencils and 'drafting machines'. 'Computer Aided Drafting'
was science fiction, but would probably mean we'd have robots doing
the final inking of the drawings."

OTOH, there is a level of "If you can't do this by hand, then how
will you know if you're doing it right with a computer or other
machine?" I've heard too many stories of organizations being
unwilling to hire someone otherwise qualified because they didn't know
The Software Package. Apparently "Software is hard to learn." and few
of those doing the hiring understood that certain tasks remain the
same "the question is how do I do it here?"

I got 'essence of the revised version' of Fundamentals of Design
at the Community college, looked it up online. The book store had a
notorious markup. OTOH, they were less on the welding references than
buying them direct from the company.

I remember my brother complaining about his text books in college. At
the time ('65ish) over $100 each, four or five per semester. As a
reference, tuition was something like $200 per semester. The books
were written (poorly) by his professors and, of course, required
material. BTW, that translates to something like $3K - $6K per book,
today. Mine, five years later, were "cheap" by comparison. Only
$30-$50, more on the $30 side.

Yeah, textbooks are a scam.

I took accounting. Between the first semester and the second, all
new standards came for GAAP (Generally Accept Accounting Practices' if
I remember) - so the text books were no long good for class, let alone
resale.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:07:38 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:14:58 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:52:39 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 22:57:14 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 19:25:35 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 20:00:58 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:15:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Sonny on Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:30:42 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Kinna sounds like you want a school text book as I had in college, Basic Design Technology class. Don't recall the text book title.

Maybe check with your local college/university book store for something appropriate.

Check your local tech school, too.

I would doubt that drafting is taught anywhere anymore, any more than
advanced abacus accounting is.

One would be surprised. But some of the tech schools will have
some fundamentals textbooks.

I can't imagine that at tech school, in particular, would spend time
on such things. They have a very limited amount of time to train
students how to do real work. High schools, maybe. They teach
nothing useful anymore. Plenty of time, though wokism does take much
of the day.

Depends on the school. Renton Tech spends two years teaching you
the basics of Machine Technology, one year on manual machines getting
some idea what is happening, then one year learning CNC programming.
(Start out by plotting all the points for the tool path 'the rest is
easy'). If nothing else, as the instructors if they have any
recommendations.

OK, but did any of it involve a drafting pencil?

Don't remember ... oh wait, a lot of the fundamentals of design
class did take place on paper. OTGH: "Last time I took drafting, it
was with pencils and 'drafting machines'. 'Computer Aided Drafting'
was science fiction, but would probably mean we'd have robots doing
the final inking of the drawings."

Not a hundred years ago. Today.

OTOH, there is a level of "If you can't do this by hand, then how
will you know if you're doing it right with a computer or other
machine?" I've heard too many stories of organizations being
unwilling to hire someone otherwise qualified because they didn't know
The Software Package. Apparently "Software is hard to learn." and few
of those doing the hiring understood that certain tasks remain the
same "the question is how do I do it here?"

I suppose if you don't know how to ride a horse, you shouldn't drive a
car? You need to know how to shoe a horse before you learn how to
change a tire on a car? Muck a barn before changing oil?

I got 'essence of the revised version' of Fundamentals of Design
at the Community college, looked it up online. The book store had a
notorious markup. OTOH, they were less on the welding references than
buying them direct from the company.

I remember my brother complaining about his text books in college. At
the time ('65ish) over $100 each, four or five per semester. As a
reference, tuition was something like $200 per semester. The books
were written (poorly) by his professors and, of course, required
material. BTW, that translates to something like $3K - $6K per book,
today. Mine, five years later, were "cheap" by comparison. Only
$30-$50, more on the $30 side.

Yeah, textbooks are a scam.

I took accounting. Between the first semester and the second, all
new standards came for GAAP (Generally Accept Accounting Practices' if
I remember) - so the text books were no long good for class, let alone
resale.

They had a better plan for us. A new edition with different problems
for each chapter. Not only does it eliminate the used book market but
it eliminates fratboys answers library.

pyotr filipivich wrote in
:


For one off drawings, it is a toss up: doing it manually or
learning CAD. The main advantage to CAD is that you can make
revisions a whole lot easier. You don't have to make a complete new
drawing.

If you really learn a CAD system, it becomes a "very easy" means
of getting a "drawing" on "paper".
But even then, you will start with a proverbial sketch on a
cocktail napkin. (In my case, it was a hospital cafeteria napkin. I
solved Bill's manufacturing problem with one easy setup. He looked at
the sketch, said "that's it - sign and date it!" For all I know it is
still in the archives.)

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

Puckdropper

Puckdropper wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote in

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

Puckdropper


Kind of sad there are kids out there who don't know how to use a
straight-edge and a compass, huh? Or, a T-square! : )
I had the "basics" down pretty early since my dad was an engineer.

I remember in 4th or 5th grade we had an assignment to sketch a room of
our house (and I enjoyed the technicalities). The teacher said,
"...and you were the only one who drew sharp arrows (arrowheads)", and I
just said, "well, my dad is an engineer". I have wondered since then
whether she thought I got help with the assignment, because I didn't ask
for or get any! It just wasn't my first rodeo! : )

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:59:16 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

pyotr filipivich wrote in
:


For one off drawings, it is a toss up: doing it manually or
learning CAD. The main advantage to CAD is that you can make
revisions a whole lot easier. You don't have to make a complete new
drawing.

If you really learn a CAD system, it becomes a "very easy" means
of getting a "drawing" on "paper".
But even then, you will start with a proverbial sketch on a
cocktail napkin. (In my case, it was a hospital cafeteria napkin. I
solved Bill's manufacturing problem with one easy setup. He looked at
the sketch, said "that's it - sign and date it!" For all I know it is
still in the archives.)

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

But you can't pick up the pad and spin it around to see it from all
angles, including the inside, and looking through the model. That's
incredibly useful.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

I "need the line" if it's part of a component. Spinning the model, in
normal modes and X-ray makes the "what's this line doing here" far
easier than a 2-D sketch.

Add the ability to add components, other furniture, or perhaps the
room itself, makes even yellow sketch pads pale.

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 06:39:25 -0500, Bill wrote:

Puckdropper wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote in

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

Puckdropper


Kind of sad there are kids out there who don't know how to use a
straight-edge and a compass, huh? Or, a T-square! : )
I had the "basics" down pretty early since my dad was an engineer.

Yeah, that walking 2 miles up-hill through 6' of snow to school, both
ways, was tough! I still prefer the car (never rode a bus).

I remember in 4th or 5th grade we had an assignment to sketch a room of
our house (and I enjoyed the technicalities). The teacher said,
"...and you were the only one who drew sharp arrows (arrowheads)", and I
just said, "well, my dad is an engineer". I have wondered since then
whether she thought I got help with the assignment, because I didn't ask
for or get any! It just wasn't my first rodeo! : )

Not everything was better fifty years ago. If it were we wouldn't
have all the spoiled-rotten kids who think boys are girls permeating
the society. They haven't any real problems so have to invent them.

wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:59:16 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to
grab a piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my
dimensions is perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You
can almost always borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

But you can't pick up the pad and spin it around to see it from all
angles, including the inside, and looking through the model. That's
incredibly useful.

Sometimes you don't need that ability, or don't need that ability yet. I
draw houses to 3D print model houses. I just don't need to see inside
the house when doing the external design, so sometimes it's faster to get
it on paper then start doing the detail work on the computer.

Other times I have a more solid idea of what I want and I just start
modeling on the computer.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces
and edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?"
and "what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

I "need the line" if it's part of a component. Spinning the model, in
normal modes and X-ray makes the "what's this line doing here" far
easier than a 2-D sketch.

Add the ability to add components, other furniture, or perhaps the
room itself, makes even yellow sketch pads pale.

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)


Yep. I'm not saying you need 20 years of experience with mechanical
drafting, but having a few months experience with the basics will
positively impact your Sketchup drawings. It's especially important when
exporting from Sketchup to 3D printer slicer, as every line, every face,
you draw ends up in the STL file. It causes big problems with the STL
import if you have stuff you don't need.

Puckdropper

Bill on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 06:39:25 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
Puckdropper wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote in

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

Puckdropper


Kind of sad there are kids out there who don't know how to use a
straight-edge and a compass, huh? Or, a T-square! : )

Yes and no. Sadder are the ones hired as "draftsmen" who
apparently can't work from a sketch to a completed drawing, even using
CAD.

I had the "basics" down pretty early since my dad was an engineer.

I remember in 4th or 5th grade we had an assignment to sketch a room of
our house (and I enjoyed the technicalities). The teacher said,
"...and you were the only one who drew sharp arrows (arrowheads)", and I
just said, "well, my dad is an engineer". I have wondered since then
whether she thought I got help with the assignment, because I didn't ask
for or get any! It just wasn't my first rodeo! : )

I remember trying as a high school sophomore to 'draft' a proper
"to scale" drawing of a combination closet, student desk, and with bed
on top. Dad took a look at my efforts and passed on the words of
wisdom: not everything needs to be "to scale".
He then told the story of when he'd been working in the woods, and
the spring runoff had wiped out the bridge necessary to get logs
delivered. The 'schmart guy' spent most of a day trying to figure out
how to get the needed pilings in. When he gave up, the wood rats
cobbled together a crib of logs with two long logs at the base (sort
of like this []__ ), they filled the crib with rocks, and used the
dozer to skid that up off the bridge approach. It tipped over, sank
and left the two long logs up right to serve as piers. Wasn't exactly
square, but you could drive a log truck over it. "It worked".
I wonder how many 'kids' have the problem of not being able to
guesstimate an imprecise solution because their calculator always gave
them 8 decimal places? Which was six or seven too many. I do not
need to know exactly the size of the thing, just whether it will fit
the space or materials available.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)