Puckdropper on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:59:16 GMT
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote in
:


For one off drawings, it is a toss up: doing it manually or
learning CAD. The main advantage to CAD is that you can make
revisions a whole lot easier. You don't have to make a complete new
drawing.

If you really learn a CAD system, it becomes a "very easy" means
of getting a "drawing" on "paper".
But even then, you will start with a proverbial sketch on a
cocktail napkin. (In my case, it was a hospital cafeteria napkin. I
solved Bill's manufacturing problem with one easy setup. He looked at
the sketch, said "that's it - sign and date it!" For all I know it is
still in the archives.)

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

CAD Class test: take this sketch, make the drawing. As I
completed it I asked myself "Can I make this?" {Is everything here to
make it to spec?}
That tour as a machinist lead me to consider "how to hold this
casting for 'finishing' work."

--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

on Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:47:24 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

OTOH, there is a level of "If you can't do this by hand, then how
will you know if you're doing it right with a computer or other
machine?" I've heard too many stories of organizations being
unwilling to hire someone otherwise qualified because they didn't know
The Software Package. Apparently "Software is hard to learn." and few
of those doing the hiring understood that certain tasks remain the
same "the question is how do I do it here?"

I suppose if you don't know how to ride a horse, you shouldn't drive a
car? You need to know how to shoe a horse before you learn how to
change a tire on a car? Muck a barn before changing oil?

You do seem dedicated to the idea that learning manual skills is
never applicable. No need to teach someone how to read a clock or
dial, everything is better with digital readouts, yes? Of course it
is. For some.
I took The Fundamentals of Design class nought but ten years ago.
Much use of paper and pencil to learn about descriptive geometry and
how it worked.

If you want to go straight to job training using a computer
package, go for it.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:30:25 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Puckdropper on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:59:16 GMT
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote in
m:


For one off drawings, it is a toss up: doing it manually or
learning CAD. The main advantage to CAD is that you can make
revisions a whole lot easier. You don't have to make a complete new
drawing.

If you really learn a CAD system, it becomes a "very easy" means
of getting a "drawing" on "paper".
But even then, you will start with a proverbial sketch on a
cocktail napkin. (In my case, it was a hospital cafeteria napkin. I
solved Bill's manufacturing problem with one easy setup. He looked at
the sketch, said "that's it - sign and date it!" For all I know it is
still in the archives.)

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

CAD Class test: take this sketch, make the drawing. As I
completed it I asked myself "Can I make this?" {Is everything here to
make it to spec?}
That tour as a machinist lead me to consider "how to hold this
casting for 'finishing' work."

Something to which far too little attention seems to be given.

wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:30:25 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Bill on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 06:39:25 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
Puckdropper wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote in

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

Puckdropper


Kind of sad there are kids out there who don't know how to use a
straight-edge and a compass, huh? Or, a T-square! : )

Yes and no. Sadder are the ones hired as "draftsmen" who
apparently can't work from a sketch to a completed drawing, even using
CAD.

I agree, here. To effectively use CAD you have to be able to
visualize what you're trying to draw. Sketchup ain't CAD.

I had the "basics" down pretty early since my dad was an engineer.

I remember in 4th or 5th grade we had an assignment to sketch a room of
our house (and I enjoyed the technicalities). The teacher said,
"...and you were the only one who drew sharp arrows (arrowheads)", and I
just said, "well, my dad is an engineer". I have wondered since then
whether she thought I got help with the assignment, because I didn't ask
for or get any! It just wasn't my first rodeo! : )

I remember trying as a high school sophomore to 'draft' a proper
"to scale" drawing of a combination closet, student desk, and with bed
on top. Dad took a look at my efforts and passed on the words of
wisdom: not everything needs to be "to scale".
He then told the story of when he'd been working in the woods, and
the spring runoff had wiped out the bridge necessary to get logs
delivered. The 'schmart guy' spent most of a day trying to figure out
how to get the needed pilings in. When he gave up, the wood rats
cobbled together a crib of logs with two long logs at the base (sort
of like this []__ ), they filled the crib with rocks, and used the
dozer to skid that up off the bridge approach. It tipped over, sank
and left the two long logs up right to serve as piers. Wasn't exactly
square, but you could drive a log truck over it. "It worked".
I wonder how many 'kids' have the problem of not being able to
guesstimate an imprecise solution because their calculator always gave
them 8 decimal places? Which was six or seven too many. I do not
need to know exactly the size of the thing, just whether it will fit
the space or materials available.

I certainly know how to round and trim significant digits (few do) but
my calculator does it for me, too. All I have to do is tell it how
many are significant. ;-0 When I stopped using a slide rule, I soon
lost the ability to estimate and even get the decimal place right. In
college I was really good at slippin' the stick but since I've
completely lost that skill. I did have a calculator my senior year of
college. Had to. Competition required it. $400 was a lot of money
in '73, about a semester's tuition and I was making $2.25/hr.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:28:17 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:59:16 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to
grab a piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my
dimensions is perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You
can almost always borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

But you can't pick up the pad and spin it around to see it from all
angles, including the inside, and looking through the model. That's
incredibly useful.

Sometimes you don't need that ability, or don't need that ability yet. I
draw houses to 3D print model houses. I just don't need to see inside
the house when doing the external design, so sometimes it's faster to get
it on paper then start doing the detail work on the computer.

But you can show the customer the model house. That's rather useful.

Other times I have a more solid idea of what I want and I just start
modeling on the computer.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces
and edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?"
and "what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

I "need the line" if it's part of a component. Spinning the model, in
normal modes and X-ray makes the "what's this line doing here" far
easier than a 2-D sketch.

Add the ability to add components, other furniture, or perhaps the
room itself, makes even yellow sketch pads pale.

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)


Yep. I'm not saying you need 20 years of experience with mechanical
drafting, but having a few months experience with the basics will
positively impact your Sketchup drawings. It's especially important when
exporting from Sketchup to 3D printer slicer, as every line, every face,
you draw ends up in the STL file. It causes big problems with the STL
import if you have stuff you don't need.

You're using Sketchup for something it wasn't designed to do.

Puckdropper

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500, Bill wrote:

wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

Besides my schematic entry tool, Excel is my most important tool. I'm
too cheap to buy it for home. There is a freeware (or used to be
anyway) spreadsheet but I hated the UI and it was too hard to remember
both.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:12:20 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:28:17 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

wrote in
m:

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:59:16 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to
grab a piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my
dimensions is perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You
can almost always borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

But you can't pick up the pad and spin it around to see it from all
angles, including the inside, and looking through the model. That's
incredibly useful.

Sometimes you don't need that ability, or don't need that ability yet. I
draw houses to 3D print model houses. I just don't need to see inside
the house when doing the external design, so sometimes it's faster to get
it on paper then start doing the detail work on the computer.

But you can show the customer the model house. That's rather useful.

When our mechanical engineers want to show me a heatsink my widget is
going into, she uses a modeling tool to show me but crawling around
inside it. The model is then sent out to make tools for castings. If
it's low volume (10-20), I'll have them machined. Same model file.

Other times I have a more solid idea of what I want and I just start
modeling on the computer.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces
and edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?"
and "what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

I "need the line" if it's part of a component. Spinning the model, in
normal modes and X-ray makes the "what's this line doing here" far
easier than a 2-D sketch.

Add the ability to add components, other furniture, or perhaps the
room itself, makes even yellow sketch pads pale.

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)


Yep. I'm not saying you need 20 years of experience with mechanical
drafting, but having a few months experience with the basics will
positively impact your Sketchup drawings. It's especially important when
exporting from Sketchup to 3D printer slicer, as every line, every face,
you draw ends up in the STL file. It causes big problems with the STL
import if you have stuff you don't need.

You're using Sketchup for something it wasn't designed to do.

Puckdropper

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:30:25 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:47:24 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

OTOH, there is a level of "If you can't do this by hand, then how
will you know if you're doing it right with a computer or other
machine?" I've heard too many stories of organizations being
unwilling to hire someone otherwise qualified because they didn't know
The Software Package. Apparently "Software is hard to learn." and few
of those doing the hiring understood that certain tasks remain the
same "the question is how do I do it here?"

I suppose if you don't know how to ride a horse, you shouldn't drive a
car? You need to know how to shoe a horse before you learn how to
change a tire on a car? Muck a barn before changing oil?

You do seem dedicated to the idea that learning manual skills is
never applicable. No need to teach someone how to read a clock or
dial, everything is better with digital readouts, yes? Of course it
is. For some.

No, I'm saying that some tools are obsolete, except for interest. Some
think it's cool to make dovetails by hand. It's interesting but I
have no interest in learning how. Time is short.

I took The Fundamentals of Design class nought but ten years ago.
Much use of paper and pencil to learn about descriptive geometry and
how it worked.

The instructor was probably and old man too. ;-)

If you want to go straight to job training using a computer
package, go for it.

Or if you grow with the job.

on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:10:31 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

I remember trying as a high school sophomore to 'draft' a proper
"to scale" drawing of a combination closet, student desk, and with bed
on top. Dad took a look at my efforts and passed on the words of
wisdom: not everything needs to be "to scale".
He then told the story of when he'd been working in the woods, and
the spring runoff had wiped out the bridge necessary to get logs
delivered. The 'schmart guy' spent most of a day trying to figure out
how to get the needed pilings in. When he gave up, the wood rats
cobbled together a crib of logs with two long logs at the base (sort
of like this []__ ), they filled the crib with rocks, and used the
dozer to skid that up off the bridge approach. It tipped over, sank
and left the two long logs up right to serve as piers. Wasn't exactly
square, but you could drive a log truck over it. "It worked".
I wonder how many 'kids' have the problem of not being able to
guesstimate an imprecise solution because their calculator always gave
them 8 decimal places? Which was six or seven too many. I do not
need to know exactly the size of the thing, just whether it will fit
the space or materials available.

I certainly know how to round and trim significant digits (few do) but
my calculator does it for me, too. All I have to do is tell it how
many are significant. ;-0 When I stopped using a slide rule, I soon
lost the ability to estimate and even get the decimal place right. In
college I was really good at slippin' the stick but since I've
completely lost that skill. I did have a calculator my senior year of
college. Had to. Competition required it. $400 was a lot of money
in '73, about a semester's tuition and I was making $2.25/hr.

I got my Dad's and my Mom's slipsticks. Learned to use them one
summer when I got the made idea to program the decay products of
radioactive isotopes. All I needed was to convert the half-life to
seconds ... easy with logs, but first I had to learn logs....

I even brought the Good One to a Comp Sci test, Dr White almost
gave me extra credit for using it. Almost.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:07:13 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:59:16 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote
For one off drawings, it is a toss up: doing it manually or
learning CAD. The main advantage to CAD is that you can make
revisions a whole lot easier. You don't have to make a complete new
drawing.

If you really learn a CAD system, it becomes a "very easy" means
of getting a "drawing" on "paper".
But even then, you will start with a proverbial sketch on a
cocktail napkin. (In my case, it was a hospital cafeteria napkin. I
solved Bill's manufacturing problem with one easy setup. He looked at
the sketch, said "that's it - sign and date it!" For all I know it is
still in the archives.)

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

But you can't pick up the pad and spin it around to see it from all
angles, including the inside, and looking through the model. That's
incredibly useful.

True. Which is why you need to learn to visualize the back side -
or visualize how the 2-D drawings come together to make the 3-D
object.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

I "need the line" if it's part of a component. Spinning the model, in
normal modes and X-ray makes the "what's this line doing here" far
easier than a 2-D sketch.

Add the ability to add components, other furniture, or perhaps the
room itself, makes even yellow sketch pads pale.

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)

And how many are so dependent upon the technology that without it
they're stuck?
I mean it isn't like in my Dad's days. _We_ had Rocks.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

Bill on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

And how many digital records are lost due to changes in standards,
lost software?

I used Quicken until 2005. When the New Improved Version was such
that nothing was preferable. So Nothing is what I used for the next
several years. The bummer is that all my financial records are lock
up in those Quicken files.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:14:43 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500, Bill wrote:

wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

Besides my schematic entry tool, Excel is my most important tool. I'm
too cheap to buy it for home. There is a freeware (or used to be
anyway) spreadsheet but I hated the UI and it was too hard to remember
both.

Open Office - Calc. I've been using it for years. Main issue is
to remember that in Calc, the separator is a semi-colon, not a comma
as in Excel.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Bill on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

And how many digital records are lost due to changes in standards,
lost software?

I used Quicken until 2005. When the New Improved Version was such
that nothing was preferable. So Nothing is what I used for the next
several years. The bummer is that all my financial records are lock
up in those Quicken files.



Intuit (maker of TurboTax and Quicken, I think) plays "games" with it's
customers. I don't care for that much...and I vote with my dollars (not
many...) But as far as the technology, I could always port my records
to "paper", if desired. It is handy to be able to look up a model
number of this, that or the other thing---it speeds up shopping. Seems
like you could find an old copy of Quicken somewhere. Just like I have
an "old copy" of the installation file for the free version of SketchUp,
which is in some ways less handicapped than the current version available.

On 2/28/2021 10:22 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:30:25 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 27 Feb 2021 17:47:24 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

OTOH, there is a level of "If you can't do this by hand, then how
will you know if you're doing it right with a computer or other
machine?" I've heard too many stories of organizations being
unwilling to hire someone otherwise qualified because they didn't know
The Software Package. Apparently "Software is hard to learn." and few
of those doing the hiring understood that certain tasks remain the
same "the question is how do I do it here?"

I suppose if you don't know how to ride a horse, you shouldn't drive a
car? You need to know how to shoe a horse before you learn how to
change a tire on a car? Muck a barn before changing oil?

You do seem dedicated to the idea that learning manual skills is
never applicable. No need to teach someone how to read a clock or
dial, everything is better with digital readouts, yes? Of course it
is. For some.

No, I'm saying that some tools are obsolete, except for interest. Some
think it's cool to make dovetails by hand. It's interesting but I
have no interest in learning how. Time is short.

I took The Fundamentals of Design class nought but ten years ago.
Much use of paper and pencil to learn about descriptive geometry and
how it worked.

The instructor was probably and old man too. ;-)

If you want to go straight to job training using a computer
package, go for it.

Or if you grow with the job.

It's still in the intro coursework in the local CC Drafting & Design
Tech program -- the employers demand it of the graduates. Being unable
to work "on the fly" is simply unacceptable; having the basics first is
mandatory.

The graduate with familiarity and, depending on program specialization,
varying levels of proficiency with multiple software applications, but
they all get the "how to" on paper drawing and measurements first.

--

On 3/1/2021 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
....

It's still in the intro coursework in the local CC Drafting & Design
Tech program -- the employers demand it of the graduates.Â* Being unable
to work "on the fly" is simply unacceptable; having the basics first is
mandatory.

The[y] graduate with familiarity and, depending on program specialization,
varying levels of proficiency with multiple software applications, but
they all get the "how to" on paper drawing and measurements first.


And, we know it is what the employers want because they sit on the
program advisory boards and make both financial and technology
contributions to programs that provide the training they're looking for
in graduates.

It's no different in concept than the fact they also have to have
coursework in basic language and mathematics skills besides just knowing
some particular CAD program.

Even the carpentry and other trades must have that; employers look
for/demand that they be able to communicate and do more than just drive
a nail, they want somebody that will eventually be the framing crew
chief, say. They can get casual labor off the street; if the guy/gal
has a degree/certificate, they need to be well-versed to really hit the
market.

--

Bill on Mon, 1 Mar 2021 00:31:00 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
Bill on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
wrote:
Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)
I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

And how many digital records are lost due to changes in standards,
lost software?

I used Quicken until 2005. When the New Improved Version was such
that nothing was preferable. So Nothing is what I used for the next
several years. The bummer is that all my financial records are lock
up in those Quicken files.



Intuit (maker of TurboTax and Quicken, I think) plays "games" with it's
customers. I don't care for that much...and I vote with my dollars (not
many...) But as far as the technology, I could always port my records
to "paper", if desired. It is handy to be able to look up a model
number of this, that or the other thing---it speeds up shopping. Seems
like you could find an old copy of Quicken somewhere.

I had the install files. But I forgot the password to my docs /
accounts. Yeah, I could have printed them out, but ... didn't occur
to me at the time.

Just like I have an "old copy" of the installation file for the free version of SketchUp,
which is in some ways less handicapped than the current version available.

I had to "start over" when my mobord died. Lot of "Install
version X, when I get it all done and complete, then go online and
update to version nine billion.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Us(tm) to serve as the new Them(tm)

wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:28:17 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

Sometimes you don't need that ability, or don't need that ability yet.
I draw houses to 3D print model houses. I just don't need to see
inside the house when doing the external design, so sometimes it's
faster to get it on paper then start doing the detail work on the
computer.

But you can show the customer the model house. That's rather useful.

Agreed. Showing the customer either the paper or computer model works
out rather well. Last time I did something for a customer, I started
with a paper sketch and showed him that first before spending an hour on
the computer drawing his house.


Yep. I'm not saying you need 20 years of experience with mechanical
drafting, but having a few months experience with the basics will
positively impact your Sketchup drawings. It's especially important
when exporting from Sketchup to 3D printer slicer, as every line,
every face, you draw ends up in the STL file. It causes big problems
with the STL import if you have stuff you don't need.

You're using Sketchup for something it wasn't designed to do.

I'm not so sure about that. The tools are the Solid
Groups/Components, Outer Shell. The only things I needed to do was
change the reverse face color to something obvious for those times
Sketchup doesn't quite understand what I want and download the STL plugin
(created by the Sketchup team).

Puckdropper

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 20:32:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:14:43 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500, Bill wrote:

wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

Besides my schematic entry tool, Excel is my most important tool. I'm
too cheap to buy it for home. There is a freeware (or used to be
anyway) spreadsheet but I hated the UI and it was too hard to remember
both.

Open Office - Calc. I've been using it for years. Main issue is
to remember that in Calc, the separator is a semi-colon, not a comma
as in Excel.

The shortcuts are all different, colors, formatting, and
equations/references, IIRC. It's a RPITA to be multilingual. Maybe
after I retire I can forget Excel, finally!

Which separators? Import text? They can be changed during import
with Excel.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 20:32:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 15:07:13 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 08:59:16 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote
For one off drawings, it is a toss up: doing it manually or
learning CAD. The main advantage to CAD is that you can make
revisions a whole lot easier. You don't have to make a complete new
drawing.

If you really learn a CAD system, it becomes a "very easy" means
of getting a "drawing" on "paper".
But even then, you will start with a proverbial sketch on a
cocktail napkin. (In my case, it was a hospital cafeteria napkin. I
solved Bill's manufacturing problem with one easy setup. He looked at
the sketch, said "that's it - sign and date it!" For all I know it is
still in the archives.)

I had a semester of mechanical drafting in high school. I'm SO glad I
did. Even though most stuff is done with Sketchup, the ability to grab a
piece of paper and use "that looks about right" for my dimensions is
perhaps the best skill I learned in high school. You can almost always
borrow a pen/pencil and something to write on.

But you can't pick up the pad and spin it around to see it from all
angles, including the inside, and looking through the model. That's
incredibly useful.

True. Which is why you need to learn to visualize the back side -
or visualize how the 2-D drawings come together to make the 3-D
object.

The cool thing is that the skills can transfer. Working with faces and
edges in Sketchup directly links back to "do I need this line?" and
"what's this line doing here?" from mechanical drafting.

I "need the line" if it's part of a component. Spinning the model, in
normal modes and X-ray makes the "what's this line doing here" far
easier than a 2-D sketch.

Add the ability to add components, other furniture, or perhaps the
room itself, makes even yellow sketch pads pale.

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)

And how many are so dependent upon the technology that without it
they're stuck?
I mean it isn't like in my Dad's days. _We_ had Rocks.

There are only a certain number of things one can fit in the head. We
have so much that one needs to know and only so much time to learn,
something's got to go.

On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 09:26:43 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/1/2021 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
...

It's still in the intro coursework in the local CC Drafting & Design
Tech program -- the employers demand it of the graduates.* Being unable
to work "on the fly" is simply unacceptable; having the basics first is
mandatory.

The[y] graduate with familiarity and, depending on program specialization,
varying levels of proficiency with multiple software applications, but
they all get the "how to" on paper drawing and measurements first.


And, we know it is what the employers want because they sit on the
program advisory boards and make both financial and technology
contributions to programs that provide the training they're looking for
in graduates.

It's no different in concept than the fact they also have to have
coursework in basic language and mathematics skills besides just knowing
some particular CAD program.

That's quite a difference. Math and language a prerequisites for life
today. Unfortunately they're not taught in schools anymore. They've
been replaced by _Heather_Has_Two_Mommies_.

Even the carpentry and other trades must have that; employers look
for/demand that they be able to communicate and do more than just drive
a nail, they want somebody that will eventually be the framing crew
chief, say. They can get casual labor off the street; if the guy/gal
has a degree/certificate, they need to be well-versed to really hit the
market.

Again, a whole different universe.

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Technical Drawing is one of those areas where it is as much
about how to think about what it is you are drawing, and for
what reason, as it is about the technicalities of the
drawing. In short, if you just need to know the shape and
dimensions, a 'rough' sketch can suffice. But 'blue prints'
have a lot of technical requirements, because they _are_ the
legal description of the item/part. E.G., I had a drawing
for a part I was making, and while the one row of holes had
each hole in a line, and all 3" apart, there was no
dimension where on the board that line was located. Is it 1
inch from the top? right down the middle? corner to corner?
"Technically" as long as the holes were in a line and on the
board "it was right" - never mind if they don't line up with
the other part.

OK, interesting. Well, I'd like the drawing to be correct at
all points, technically, but it can be super simple at first,
that's good even. And correct terminology all thru.
And examples (drawings). That's it

Like learning English from 0. First lesson is just one word.
"Hello". Well, OK, that _is_ correct English! Then it
progresses, and new concepts are introduced. That would
be ideal.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Eli the Bearded wrote:

That one seems to be popular. Amazon has new printings, and
the used ones on Abe Books are mostly more than the new.

Argh, so many suggestion... why don't you guys decide on onee
book? I'll be happy to order that.



--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Emanuel Berg wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Technical Drawing is one of those areas where it is as much
about how to think about what it is you are drawing, and for
what reason, as it is about the technicalities of the
drawing. In short, if you just need to know the shape and
dimensions, a 'rough' sketch can suffice. But 'blue prints'
have a lot of technical requirements, because they _are_ the
legal description of the item/part. E.G., I had a drawing
for a part I was making, and while the one row of holes had
each hole in a line, and all 3" apart, there was no
dimension where on the board that line was located. Is it 1
inch from the top? right down the middle? corner to corner?
"Technically" as long as the holes were in a line and on the
board "it was right" - never mind if they don't line up with
the other part.

OK, interesting. Well, I'd like the drawing to be correct at
all points, technically, but it can be super simple at first,
that's good even. And correct terminology all thru.
And examples (drawings). That's it

Like learning English from 0. First lesson is just one word.
"Hello". Well, OK, that _is_ correct English! Then it
progresses, and new concepts are introduced. That would
be ideal.


From my perspective, technical drawing varies a great deal with
context: From a nut and bolt or motor assembly, kitchen cabinets, or
city streets (with sewers and water mains). I think they each have their
own standards (nomenclature?). If any software developers are watching,
it is interesting to compare/contrast with UML (Unified Modeling Language).

krw wrote:

I can't imagine that at tech school, in particular, would
spend time on such things [...]

They teach it here at many levels. At the university perhaps
theory-only by now.

I did it year one at "gymnasiet" which maybe equals your
"Sophomore year" [1] - don't remember much, mostly the sliding
ruler set we used. And a very thin disc with holes to do
precision erasing

Sorry for improvised (incorrect) terminology...
please correct.

[1] https://www.flashback.org/t504129

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

krw wrote:

I remember my brother complaining about his text books in
college. At the time ('65ish) over $100 each, four or five
per semester. As a reference, tuition was something like
$200 per semester. The books were written (poorly) by his
professors and, of course, required material. BTW, that
translates to something like $3K - $6K per book, today.
Mine, five years later, were "cheap" by comparison.
Only $30-$50, more on the $30 side.

But at least _after_ the education in the 65-70ish you got
a good job, right? Which would pay for them books many
times over?

Poorly written books never good tho, 1965 or 2021 equally bad.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 9:25:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 20:32:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:14:43 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500, Bill wrote:

wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

Besides my schematic entry tool, Excel is my most important tool. I'm
too cheap to buy it for home. There is a freeware (or used to be
anyway) spreadsheet but I hated the UI and it was too hard to remember
both.

Open Office - Calc. I've been using it for years. Main issue is
to remember that in Calc, the separator is a semi-colon, not a comma
as in Excel.
The shortcuts are all different, colors, formatting, and
equations/references, IIRC. It's a RPITA to be multilingual. Maybe
after I retire I can forget Excel, finally!

Which separators? Import text? They can be changed during import
with Excel.


I believe he means:

=SUM(A1;F4;QE3)

On 3/1/2021 10:49 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Technical Drawing is one of those areas where it is as much
about how to think about what it is you are drawing, and for
what reason, as it is about the technicalities of the
drawing. In short, if you just need to know the shape and
dimensions, a 'rough' sketch can suffice. But 'blue prints'
have a lot of technical requirements, because they _are_ the
legal description of the item/part. E.G., I had a drawing
for a part I was making, and while the one row of holes had
each hole in a line, and all 3" apart, there was no
dimension where on the board that line was located. Is it 1
inch from the top? right down the middle? corner to corner?
"Technically" as long as the holes were in a line and on the
board "it was right" - never mind if they don't line up with
the other part.

OK, interesting. Well, I'd like the drawing to be correct at
all points, technically, but it can be super simple at first,
that's good even. And correct terminology all thru.
And examples (drawings). That's it

Like learning English from 0. First lesson is just one word.
"Hello". Well, OK, that _is_ correct English! Then it
progresses, and new concepts are introduced. That would
be ideal.



So pick an area, style of drawing you want to do.
Each is like a different language.

Mechanical drawing is similar but quite different from architectural
drawing. The lettering is substantially different as are the end points
of dimension lines. Pipe fitting drawings are different too as are
electrical schematic drawings.
Basically an architect would probably fail miserable at providing a
machinist a drawing that meant anything or for that matter provide
enough detail.

Aside from that there are rules that apply to dimensions as well as the
drawings themselves. Then there are line weights for each. Then there
are cross section views that are different.

And aside from all of that there are rules for placement of all of the
views on a drawing and then add in isometric views and their exact
placement.

It is a good thing to learn the basics to drawing with a drawing board
but you can, for your own needs, progress further and faster using a
computer and say, Sketchup.

On 3/1/2021 11:05 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Eli the Bearded wrote:

That one seems to be popular. Amazon has new printings, and
the used ones on Abe Books are mostly more than the new.

Argh, so many suggestion... why don't you guys decide on onee
book? I'll be happy to order that.





LOL, That would be like asking for a suggestion to learn a language and
not indicating which language you want to learn.

On 3/1/2021 8:25 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 20:32:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:14:43 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500, Bill wrote:

wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

Besides my schematic entry tool, Excel is my most important tool. I'm
too cheap to buy it for home. There is a freeware (or used to be
anyway) spreadsheet but I hated the UI and it was too hard to remember
both.

Open Office - Calc. I've been using it for years. Main issue is
to remember that in Calc, the separator is a semi-colon, not a comma
as in Excel.

The shortcuts are all different, colors, formatting, and
equations/references, IIRC. It's a RPITA to be multilingual. Maybe
after I retire I can forget Excel, finally!

LOL, I used Lotus 123 up until about 6 years ago, from about 1990. Then
learned, sort'a learned Excel, I get done what I need to get done. ;~)

On 3/1/2021 9:06 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 09:26:43 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/1/2021 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
...

It's still in the intro coursework in the local CC Drafting & Design
Tech program -- the employers demand it of the graduates.Â* Being unable
to work "on the fly" is simply unacceptable; having the basics first is
mandatory.

The[y] graduate with familiarity and, depending on program specialization,
varying levels of proficiency with multiple software applications, but
they all get the "how to" on paper drawing and measurements first.


And, we know it is what the employers want because they sit on the
program advisory boards and make both financial and technology
contributions to programs that provide the training they're looking for
in graduates.

It's no different in concept than the fact they also have to have
coursework in basic language and mathematics skills besides just knowing
some particular CAD program.

That's quite a difference. Math and language a prerequisites for life
today. Unfortunately they're not taught in schools anymore. They've
been replaced by _Heather_Has_Two_Mommies_.

Even the carpentry and other trades must have that; employers look
for/demand that they be able to communicate and do more than just drive
a nail, they want somebody that will eventually be the framing crew
chief, say. They can get casual labor off the street; if the guy/gal
has a degree/certificate, they need to be well-versed to really hit the
market.

Again, a whole different universe.

Parallel, however.

They also get rudiments of mechanical drawing, measurements,
bluprint-reading, etc., etc., etc., ...

I repeat--

"... we know it is what the employers want because they sit on the
program advisory boards and make both financial and technology
contributions to programs that provide the training they're looking for
in graduates."

If you want to teach a course-specific training in a given CAD package
(or Excel or Quickbooks); that's possible and there are classes for the
purpose but it's not a general curriculum.

--

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 05:16:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 9:25:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 20:32:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:14:43 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 21:21:14 -0500, Bill wrote:

wrote:

Technology is often better than "GET OFF MY LAWN!". ;-)



I know what you mean, but I ENJOY "Get Off Of My Lawn!!!" : )

My dad used to keep a ledger of every purchase he made for his
house/garden (even packs of seeds!) Me, I use an Excel spreadsheet!
: )
Besides of keeping track of model numbers, dates, and phone numbers,
there's a "nostalgia factor" to having the spreadsheet. Like, we
planted that tree in 20XX...

Besides my schematic entry tool, Excel is my most important tool. I'm
too cheap to buy it for home. There is a freeware (or used to be
anyway) spreadsheet but I hated the UI and it was too hard to remember
both.

Open Office - Calc. I've been using it for years. Main issue is
to remember that in Calc, the separator is a semi-colon, not a comma
as in Excel.
The shortcuts are all different, colors, formatting, and
equations/references, IIRC. It's a RPITA to be multilingual. Maybe
after I retire I can forget Excel, finally!

Which separators? Import text? They can be changed during import
with Excel.


I believe he means:

=SUM(A1;F4;QE3)

I don't believe I've ever used that function nor see the need, at
least in that way. A column of numbers, sure, but I just paint them.

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 08:31:22 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/1/2021 9:06 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 09:26:43 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 3/1/2021 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
...

It's still in the intro coursework in the local CC Drafting & Design
Tech program -- the employers demand it of the graduates.* Being unable
to work "on the fly" is simply unacceptable; having the basics first is
mandatory.

The[y] graduate with familiarity and, depending on program specialization,
varying levels of proficiency with multiple software applications, but
they all get the "how to" on paper drawing and measurements first.


And, we know it is what the employers want because they sit on the
program advisory boards and make both financial and technology
contributions to programs that provide the training they're looking for
in graduates.

It's no different in concept than the fact they also have to have
coursework in basic language and mathematics skills besides just knowing
some particular CAD program.

That's quite a difference. Math and language a prerequisites for life
today. Unfortunately they're not taught in schools anymore. They've
been replaced by _Heather_Has_Two_Mommies_.

Even the carpentry and other trades must have that; employers look
for/demand that they be able to communicate and do more than just drive
a nail, they want somebody that will eventually be the framing crew
chief, say. They can get casual labor off the street; if the guy/gal
has a degree/certificate, they need to be well-versed to really hit the
market.

Again, a whole different universe.

Parallel, however.

Not at all. One is very specialized knowledge, the other set is
foundational. Nothing gets done without it.

They also get rudiments of mechanical drawing, measurements,
bluprint-reading, etc., etc., etc., ...

I repeat--

"... we know it is what the employers want because they sit on the
program advisory boards and make both financial and technology
contributions to programs that provide the training they're looking for
in graduates."

Maybe but they're people who were brought up needing that rot. The
"GET OFF MY LAWN" crowd.

If you want to teach a course-specific training in a given CAD package
(or Excel or Quickbooks); that's possible and there are classes for the
purpose but it's not a general curriculum.

Bull****. 3-D modeling, and specific programs, *are* taught in
technical colleges and universities. We don't just grow mechanical
engineers on trees. Even if only one particular program is taught,
the skills are transferable. There is a limited set of professional
packages so chances are good that the knowledge will be immediately
usable.

If by "general curriculum" you mean to liberal arts majors, no,
they're too busy canceling real people.

On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 13:27:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

krw wrote:

I remember my brother complaining about his text books in
college. At the time ('65ish) over $100 each, four or five
per semester. As a reference, tuition was something like
$200 per semester. The books were written (poorly) by his
professors and, of course, required material. BTW, that
translates to something like $3K - $6K per book, today.
Mine, five years later, were "cheap" by comparison.
Only $30-$50, more on the $30 side.

But at least _after_ the education in the 65-70ish you got
a good job, right? Which would pay for them books many
times over?

You do today, in those fields (veterinary medicine and electrical
engineering) ;-)

Poorly written books never good tho, 1965 or 2021 equally bad.

Good point. Good textbooks are hard to find anywhere. I found many
are good once you know the subject but are Greek to the sophomore.

Bill wrote:

I think it was Lew Hodgett, who was a valuable contributing
member of this newsgroup, and boat lover, for many years,
who recommended the following book to me: "Fundamentals of
Engineering Drawing", by French and Vierck, McGraw-Hill,
1960. I have the 2nd edition, published in 1966. It will
even help you to compute the values of the trigonometric
functions, sin(x), etc., using your slide rule! The drawings
in the book are at a level suitable for beginning mechanical
engineers! Now that I have it out, I think I'll review it
some! : ) Lew also liked the woodworking book, "Boat Joinery
& Cabinetmaking", and I collected that book too, and even
bought a 2nd copy to give to a friend. I caught on early in
my woodworking hobby that books are cheaper than tools [...]

Not anymore!

Well, it depends. Power tools, certainly but actually
not always. If you have the charger and batteries already it
can be the same, virtually, as some books put out today.

Precision instruments like torque wrenches - sometimes.
Good enough for government work Made in Taiwan that I got is
less expensive, or right around what people give for
a university textbook. (There are super-expensive torque
wrenches as well, of course. And spoke tension meters for
more than 10 000 SEK ???)

But, the last three tools I got: knife to cut rope - ~100 SEK,
Nail Puller - 200 SEK, crowfoot - below 100 SEK, folding rule
mm/inches - below 100 SEK, hand saw [1] - 70 SEK, sure, really
expensive hand tools like Knipex power pliers Made in Germany
and stuff - OK, that's true - but a big book on
science/technology can by 600-800 SEK as well! Easily!

[1] The hand saw is 7 teeth 8 points, I understand that
definition but why is the 8 points relevant, what does it
tell that is useful that 7 teeth doesn't tell already?
Do you know? It bugs me I can't figure it out...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 08:24:12 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 3/1/2021 11:05 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Eli the Bearded wrote:

That one seems to be popular. Amazon has new printings, and
the used ones on Abe Books are mostly more than the new.

Argh, so many suggestion... why don't you guys decide on onee
book? I'll be happy to order that.





LOL, That would be like asking for a suggestion to learn a language and
not indicating which language you want to learn.

Obviously English. Learn that and you've learned all of the others,
since English is a language stolen from a hundred others. ;-)

OK, it has some special (read; weird) rules not found elsewhere, like
order of adjectives. Get them out of order and you sound like a true
moron (but no one can tell you why ;-).

In rec.woodworking, wrote:
Obviously English. Learn that and you've learned all of the others,
since English is a language stolen from a hundred others. ;-)

English usually doesn't steal grammar from other langages, just words.

OK, it has some special (read; weird) rules not found elsewhere, like
order of adjectives. Get them out of order and you sound like a true
moron (but no one can tell you why ;-).

To wit:

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...t-know-we-know

"Adjectives in English absolutely have to be in this order:
opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun. So you
can have a lovely little old rectangular green French silver
whittling knife. But if you mess with that word order in the
slightest you'll sound like a maniac. It's an odd thing that every
English speaker uses that list, but almost none of us could write it
out."

It goes on to explain the rare exception to that rule, namely ordering
vowel sounds in similar sounding words. Hence Little Red Riding Hood
(size color purpose) fits, but Big Bad Wolf (size opinion) doesn't.

Elijah
------
BBC story is by an author of a book on eloquence

Bill wrote:

From my perspective, technical drawing varies a great deal
with context: From a nut and bolt or motor assembly, kitchen
cabinets, or city streets (with sewers and water mains).
I think they each have their own standards (nomenclature?).
If any software developers are watching, it is interesting
to compare/contrast with UML (Unified Modeling Language).

Here is the use case:

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/blog/index.html

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Leon wrote:

So pick an area, style of drawing you want to do.
Each is like a different language.

OK:

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/blog/index.html

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Leon wrote:

LOL, That would be like asking for a suggestion to learn
a language and not indicating which language you want
to learn.

Right, but what language is this then? Construction, yes?

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/blog/tr...ree-house.html

(Actually it is HTML LOL)

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal