I'm thinking of purchasing a random orbital sander and am curious what the
consensus is on the advantages of buying the pressure sensitive adhesive
sanding pad model vs. the hook and loop type. What are the advantages and
disadvantages? Some of the things that I imagine wouild be important would
be cost per sheet, availability, ease of application and removal, and
inadvertant slippage of the disc on the sander. What experiences have people
had with this. Thanks.David Mahoney

DJMahoney asks:


I'm thinking of purchasing a random orbital sander and am curious what the
consensus is on the advantages of buying the pressure sensitive adhesive
sanding pad model vs. the hook and loop type. What are the advantages and
disadvantages? Some of the things that I imagine wouild be important would
be cost per sheet, availability, ease of application and removal, and
inadvertant slippage of the disc on the sander. What experiences have people
had with this.

There may not be a consensus, but in my experience, hook & loop is slightly
more expensive, easier to attach correctly, easier to remove and re-attach, and
doesn't leave a mess on the pad. PSA is cheaper, reasonably easy to attach, may
tear on detachment, doesn't re-attach for squat, deteriorates over time (got
any 6-7 year old PSA discs? Use them for hand sanding in too many cases),
leaves bits and pieces of paper and adhesive on the pad if left in place and
not removed for too long.

Charlie Self
"Inanimate objects are classified scientifically into three major categories -
those that don't work, those that break down and those that get lost." Russell
Baker

personally i don't understand the draw to PSA. to me, glue and sawdust
just don't mix - what a mess. i like PSA. be prepared to purchase
replacement hook pads for the sander.

good luck,

--- dz


DFM & JCM wrote:
I'm thinking of purchasing a random orbital sander and am curious what the
consensus is on the advantages of buying the pressure sensitive adhesive
sanding pad model vs. the hook and loop type. What are the advantages and
disadvantages? Some of the things that I imagine wouild be important would
be cost per sheet, availability, ease of application and removal, and
inadvertant slippage of the disc on the sander. What experiences have people
had with this. Thanks.David Mahoney

whoops. i like hook and loop. not PSA.

this is all part of my master plan to confuse you!

--- dz


David Zaret wrote:

personally i don't understand the draw to PSA. to me, glue and sawdust
just don't mix - what a mess. i like PSA. be prepared to purchase
replacement hook pads for the sander.

good luck,

--- dz


DFM & JCM wrote:

I'm thinking of purchasing a random orbital sander and am curious what
the
consensus is on the advantages of buying the pressure sensitive adhesive
sanding pad model vs. the hook and loop type. What are the advantages and
disadvantages? Some of the things that I imagine wouild be important
would
be cost per sheet, availability, ease of application and removal, and
inadvertant slippage of the disc on the sander. What experiences have
people
had with this. Thanks.David Mahoney

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

There may not be a consensus, but in my experience, hook & loop is
slightly
more expensive, easier to attach correctly, easier to remove and
re-attach, and
doesn't leave a mess on the pad. PSA is cheaper, reasonably easy to
attach, may
tear on detachment, doesn't re-attach for squat, deteriorates over time
(got
any 6-7 year old PSA discs? Use them for hand sanding in too many cases),
leaves bits and pieces of paper and adhesive on the pad if left in place
and
not removed for too long.

I have some PSA 3M Gold 5" disks that are probably 10 years old and still
hold like new. Oddly these were orriginally a roll of 250, 180 grit IIRC
with NO protective backing. That said, If I leave the disk on the sander
for an extended number of days, I simply sand with the pad to warm the paper
up and it comes off with out much effort. I wonder if being stored in a
rather humid envirinment keeps these disks in good shape.

"David Zaret" wrote in message
...
personally i don't understand the draw to PSA. to me, glue and sawdust
just don't mix - what a mess. i like PSA. be prepared to purchase
replacement hook pads for the sander.


It may be environment or humidity but I have used PSA paper for more than 15
years and absolutely have had no problems with it.
That said, for many years I was in the automotive business and had access to
"Free" 3M sand paper. I choose and prefer PSA to H&L as did all the body
men in the body shops. We probably sold PSA over H&L at a ratio of 50 to 1.
Typically dust is not a problem with PSA unless you set the adhesive side
down on dust.

If you are going to be an occasional sander or work on small projects that
require changing grits before your paper is worn out, H&L will be your best
choice. Obviously the added expense of the H&L over PSA is in the
attachment system that affords you the ability to reuse a piece of paper
that is not yet worn out.

If you will use a lot of sand paper or work on large projects where you
actually wear the paper out before changing grits PSA will be a cheaper
choice. Typically production shops use PSA to save money.

Some believe that PSA is more hassle or does not stick well. I have never
witnessed this problem after using the PSA paper for 15 years. Some of my
paper is 10 years old.

H&L is simply more expensive and there seem to be more complaints from
regular users of H&L that the pads do not hold up and begin to melt along
the outer edges when used for extended periods of time. Basically there
seem to be more complaints from H&L users than from PSA users.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

There may not be a consensus, but in my experience, hook & loop is
slightly
more expensive, easier to attach correctly, easier to remove and
re-attach, and
doesn't leave a mess on the pad. PSA is cheaper, reasonably easy to
attach, may
tear on detachment, doesn't re-attach for squat, deteriorates over time
(got
any 6-7 year old PSA discs? Use them for hand sanding in too many
cases),
leaves bits and pieces of paper and adhesive on the pad if left in place
and
not removed for too long.

I have some PSA 3M Gold 5" disks that are probably 10 years old and still
hold like new. Oddly these were orriginally a roll of 250, 180 grit IIRC
with NO protective backing. That said, If I leave the disk on the sander
for an extended number of days, I simply sand with the pad to warm the
paper
up and it comes off with out much effort. I wonder if being stored in a
rather humid envirinment keeps these disks in good shape.

I have to agree with some of what both Charlie & Leon have said.
Instructions with my PSA ROS warned about leaving the paper on the pad after
sanding, as the generated heat makes the adhesive *set* so it is hard to
remove. Never tried Leon's trick of warming it up again to loosen it. I
frequently clean the pad on mine with thinner or alcohol to get rid of old
adhesive & bits of paper.

Leon, not trying to start a war, but I feel comparing *our* needs to
autobody is a tiny bit like apples vs oranges. Autobody you tend to "use up"
the paper & discard it, where with us we have more need to not necessarily
use up the paper before switching to a different grit, and this is where the
H&L really works for us.

My $.02

--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

If you are going to be an occasional sander or work on small projects that
require changing grits before your paper is worn out, H&L will be your
best
choice. Obviously the added expense of the H&L over PSA is in the
attachment system that affords you the ability to reuse a piece of paper
that is not yet worn out.

If you will use a lot of sand paper or work on large projects where you
actually wear the paper out before changing grits PSA will be a cheaper
choice. Typically production shops use PSA to save money.

Some believe that PSA is more hassle or does not stick well. I have never
witnessed this problem after using the PSA paper for 15 years. Some of my
paper is 10 years old.

H&L is simply more expensive and there seem to be more complaints from
regular users of H&L that the pads do not hold up and begin to melt along
the outer edges when used for extended periods of time. Basically there
seem to be more complaints from H&L users than from PSA users.



Leon - your points are well taken and I do not dispute them, however I can't
help but chuckle some when I read so many posts here from people who
absolutely must spend hundreds of dollars more for a table saw or a cabinet
saw than they really need to, just because it's the thing, or who will spend
tons more on a particular sharpening stone, or set of chisels, yet they puke
at the thought of throwing away a sheet of sand paper that's worth only
cents, just because they can get another 1,000 swirls out of it. Sorta like
looking to make your own tack cloth instead of spending 79 cents on one in
the store.
--

-Mike-

I use H&L simply because it's the easiest to get, the only store that sells
PSA that I know of is 30 miles away. I got a home depot 8 miles away, and
it's on the way home, and all there ROS disks are Norton H&L. I could mail
order them but the added cost of shipping for the amount of sandpaper I use
kind of kills any savings.

on another note anyone use Norton 3x ROS sanding disks? I love the regular
Norton Disks, wondering if I should special order some, the 3x sheets are
far better then any thing else I've found well worth the extra cost, if any
they last so much longer, just wondering if there is any experience with
them

Leon wrote:




Exactly,,I think that I mentioned in another post that production needs
would be better suited with PSA and for those that don't use up the paper
before removing would be better suited by PSA.



OOOOoooouuuuuupppppppssss


For those that do not use up the paper before removing would be better
suited by using "H&L".

Mike Marlow responds:

I can't
help but chuckle some when I read so many posts here from people who
absolutely must spend hundreds of dollars more for a table saw or a cabinet
saw than they really need to, just because it's the thing, or who will spend
tons more on a particular sharpening stone, or set of chisels, yet they puke
at the thought of throwing away a sheet of sand paper that's worth only
cents, just because they can get another 1,000 swirls out of it. Sorta like
looking to make your own tack cloth instead of spending 79 cents on one in
the store.

Who's to decide what aparticular person "needs" in the way of a table saw or
other tool? I wouldn't have the nerve to determine exactly what someone else
should spend for a tool, nor would I feel obligated to correct their spending
habits when it comes time to save a few bucks to help cover the cost of the
better tools.

Table saws, chisels and most sharpening stones are not consumables. Each will
be around for years, one hopes for decades, so getting the best affordable
units makes sense. Being able to change sanding discs as you go up through the
grits on a finishing job is a different kettle of fish. Sanding discs are
consumables, but there seems to me no need whatsoever to sand a box with 80
grit for 3 minutes, toss the disc, go up to 100 for 3 more minutes, toss the
disc, go up to 120 or 150, sand for 3 more minutes and toss the disc and on
through, say, 320. That is ****ing money away, regardless of what you spent on
your tablesaw.

Tack cloths are also consumables, but it's easy enough to dribble a teaspoon or
two of varnish into some cheesecloth, squeeze it a couple times, and use that.
For me, that use saves a 22 mile round trip to the store, among other things.

In other words, it ain't always the 79 cents, and if my behavior makes someone
else giggle, then their funny bone is too close to the surface, creating a
problem for them, not me.

Charlie Self
"Inanimate objects are classified scientifically into three major categories -
those that don't work, those that break down and those that get lost." Russell
Baker

"Norman D. Crow" wrote in message
...

Leon, not trying to start a war, but I feel comparing *our* needs to
autobody is a tiny bit like apples vs oranges. Autobody you tend to "use
up"
the paper & discard it, where with us we have more need to not necessarily
use up the paper before switching to a different grit, and this is where
the
H&L really works for us.


Exactly,,I think that I mentioned in another post that production needs
would be better suited with PSA and for those that don't use up the paper
before removing would be better suited by PSA.

Exactly,,I think that I mentioned in another post that production needs
would be better suited with PSA and for those that don't use up the paper
before removing would be better suited by PSA.



OOOOoooouuuuuupppppppssss


For those that do not use up the paper before removing would be better
suited by using "H&L".

"Leon" wrote in message
For those that do not use up the paper before removing would be better
suited by using "H&L".


You don't have a sander for each grit?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:5LtSc.3943$4E1.1061@trndny07...

"Leon" wrote in message
For those that do not use up the paper before removing would be better
suited by using "H&L".


You don't have a sander for each grit?


Well... um I primarily use 2 grits 98% of the time. I use 150 on my ROS
and I always finish up with 180 on my SpeedBloc. So uh I guess I have a
sander for each grit. LOL

Sweet,
where are you getting them, Depot and lowes don't seem to carry them

what's the cost?


NoOne N Particular wrote:

Richard -

I have started using the Norton 3x disks in my ros, and I don't think I
can
go back to "regular" disks. :-) The 3x disks are just as good as the 3x
sheets. Fast and long lasting.

Wayne


"Richard Clements" wrote in message
...
I use H&L simply because it's the easiest to get, the only store that
sells
PSA that I know of is 30 miles away. I got a home depot 8 miles away,
and
it's on the way home, and all there ROS disks are Norton H&L. I could
mail
order them but the added cost of shipping for the amount of sandpaper I
use
kind of kills any savings.

on another note anyone use Norton 3x ROS sanding disks? I love the
regular Norton Disks, wondering if I should special order some, the 3x
sheets are far better then any thing else I've found well worth the extra
cost, if
any
they last so much longer, just wondering if there is any experience with
them

Leon wrote:




Exactly,,I think that I mentioned in another post that production
needs would be better suited with PSA and for those that don't use up
the
paper
before removing would be better suited by PSA.



OOOOoooouuuuuupppppppssss


For those that do not use up the paper before removing would be better
suited by using "H&L".

Richard -

I have started using the Norton 3x disks in my ros, and I don't think I can
go back to "regular" disks. :-) The 3x disks are just as good as the 3x
sheets. Fast and long lasting.

Wayne


"Richard Clements" wrote in message
...
I use H&L simply because it's the easiest to get, the only store that
sells
PSA that I know of is 30 miles away. I got a home depot 8 miles away, and
it's on the way home, and all there ROS disks are Norton H&L. I could
mail
order them but the added cost of shipping for the amount of sandpaper I
use
kind of kills any savings.

on another note anyone use Norton 3x ROS sanding disks? I love the regular
Norton Disks, wondering if I should special order some, the 3x sheets are
far better then any thing else I've found well worth the extra cost, if
any
they last so much longer, just wondering if there is any experience with
them

Leon wrote:




Exactly,,I think that I mentioned in another post that production needs
would be better suited with PSA and for those that don't use up the
paper
before removing would be better suited by PSA.



OOOOoooouuuuuupppppppssss


For those that do not use up the paper before removing would be better
suited by using "H&L".

"Leon" wrote in message
m...

"Norman D. Crow" wrote in message
...

Leon, not trying to start a war, but I feel comparing *our* needs to
autobody is a tiny bit like apples vs oranges. Autobody you tend to "use
up"
the paper & discard it, where with us we have more need to not
necessarily
use up the paper before switching to a different grit, and this is where
the
H&L really works for us.


Exactly,,I think that I mentioned in another post that production needs
would be better suited with PSA and for those that don't use up the paper
before removing would be better suited by PSA.

Yup! I made my post before seeing yours.

--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote...

You don't have a sander for each grit?

(G) Hey, that's not as extravagant as it sounds!

I use a Dynabrade ROS, which is, IMHO, the best ROS out there.
Unfortunately, they require a pretty beefy compressor to run, so they're
not suitable for a lot of home shops. They are also a bit expensive.
Having one for each grit would take a bigger crowbar than any I own.

Also, I prefer the PSA disks, for several reasons, but often do not use a
disk up before needing to switch to the next grit. To avoid the
horrendous expense (big grin, here), I simply keep a separate BUP (back-
up pad) for each grit. They're only a few bucks apiece, and I only need
two: one for 100 grit, and the other for 150.

When the project calls for coarser sanding, I use a belt sander. For
finer sanding, I switch to the Speed-Bloc. The Speed-Bloc is the only
sander that I frequently switch sandpaper grades on.

So, to make a long story even longer, I *almost* have a sander for each
grit.

Jim

Guys, thanks for all the wonderful advice. You answered all the questions
that I had on this subject and I will be able to make an informed choice on
my purchase. David
"DFM & JCM" wrote in message
...
I'm thinking of purchasing a random orbital sander and am curious what the
consensus is on the advantages of buying the pressure sensitive adhesive
sanding pad model vs. the hook and loop type. What are the advantages and
disadvantages? Some of the things that I imagine wouild be important would
be cost per sheet, availability, ease of application and removal, and
inadvertant slippage of the disc on the sander. What experiences have
people
had with this. Thanks.David Mahoney

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

In other words, it ain't always the 79 cents, and if my behavior makes
someone
else giggle, then their funny bone is too close to the surface, creating a
problem for them, not me.


Who says it has to be a problem? You have your way of doing things and I
have mine. You have your opinions and I have mine. I'm fine with you doing
things your way and I'm equally fine doing things my way. That I may get a
chuckle out of it is no real big deal. I'm certain you would find some of
the things I do to be something you just can't understand - I'm simply
expressing the same. It's not really that big a deal.
--

-Mike-

Subject

I've used a lot of both PSA and H&L abrasives.

Trust me, PSA is a real PITA.

If I could ever find 8" H&L, it would be the last time I would buy 3M, Green
Stikit discs for a foam pad.

Abrasives are not a place to try to save money, IMHO.

HTH

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
link.net...
Subject

I've used a lot of both PSA and H&L abrasives.

Trust me, PSA is a real PITA.

If I could ever find 8" H&L, it would be the last time I would buy 3M,
Green
Stikit discs for a foam pad.

Abrasives are not a place to try to save money, IMHO.

IIRC the Green Stikit disks were a lower grit number and a real cheaply made
disk. Have you ever been able to find the 3M Gray, Gold disks in the grits
you use. These are much better disks.

Leon wrote...

"Lew Hodgett" wrote ...

I've used a lot of both PSA and H&L abrasives.

Trust me, PSA is a real PITA.


IIRC the Green Stikit disks were a lower grit number and a real cheaply made
disk. Have you ever been able to find the 3M Gray, Gold disks in the grits
you use. These are much better disks.


The Carborundums are good, too. I have no problems with the 3M Gold or
Imperial (purple), either. What am I missing?

Jim

Leon wrote...
IIRC the Green Stikit disks were a lower grit number and a real cheaply
made
disk. Have you ever been able to find the 3M Gray, Gold disks in the
grits
you use. These are much better disks.

"Jim Wilson" writes:

The Carborundums are good, too. I have no problems with the 3M Gold or
Imperial (purple), either. What am I missing?

The problem is the PSA adhesive itself.

After a few disks, the pad starts getting gummy from the old adhesive, so
you have to stop and clean it before continuing..

Fortunately, the hull fairing is complete, even though it took 3 years, so
have no further need for PSA.

BTW, these were 50 & 80 grit disks.

HTH

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...

The problem is the PSA adhesive itself.

After a few disks, the pad starts getting gummy from the old adhesive, so
you have to stop and clean it before continuing..


I don't doubt that you have problems but oddly I can remember needing to
clean a pad 1 or 2 times in the last 15 years. I wonder if the humidity and
or temperature has something to do with this.

Hmmm. Now that I think about it, the last ones I bought were at a ww show
in Sackatomatoes. I will have to find another source too. Crap! Good
thing they last a long time. :-)

Wayne


"Richard Clements" wrote in message
...
Sweet,
where are you getting them, Depot and lowes don't seem to carry them

what's the cost?


NoOne N Particular wrote:

Richard -

I have started using the Norton 3x disks in my ros, and I don't think I
can
go back to "regular" disks. :-) The 3x disks are just as good as the
3x
sheets. Fast and long lasting.

Wayne


"Richard Clements" wrote in message
...
I use H&L simply because it's the easiest to get, the only store that
sells
PSA that I know of is 30 miles away. I got a home depot 8 miles away,
and
it's on the way home, and all there ROS disks are Norton H&L. I could
mail
order them but the added cost of shipping for the amount of sandpaper I
use
kind of kills any savings.

on another note anyone use Norton 3x ROS sanding disks? I love the
regular Norton Disks, wondering if I should special order some, the 3x
sheets are far better then any thing else I've found well worth the
extra
cost, if
any
they last so much longer, just wondering if there is any experience
with
them

Leon wrote:




Exactly,,I think that I mentioned in another post that production
needs would be better suited with PSA and for those that don't use
up
the
paper
before removing would be better suited by PSA.



OOOOoooouuuuuupppppppssss


For those that do not use up the paper before removing would be
better
suited by using "H&L".

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:22:48 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
link.net...

The problem is the PSA adhesive itself.

After a few disks, the pad starts getting gummy from the old adhesive, so
you have to stop and clean it before continuing..


I don't doubt that you have problems but oddly I can remember needing to
clean a pad 1 or 2 times in the last 15 years. I wonder if the humidity and
or temperature has something to do with this.




what pad cleaning I have had to do (in dry arizona) has been to get
sawdust off. quick alcohol wipe and back in biz...

"Leon" writes:

I don't doubt that you have problems but oddly I can remember needing to
clean a pad 1 or 2 times in the last 15 years. I wonder if the humidity
and
or temperature has something to do with this.

For openers, these disks were used on epoxy fairing compound which is
abrasive and very dusty.

Epoxy fairing compound will wear a sanding disk away to zilch very quickly
so there was a lot of disks being replaced in a short time.

I don't have a clue about the weather but I'm in SoCal which translates to
zilch humidity and warm but not really hot (high 80's this week) days.

For me H&L simplifies my life and H&L disks are competitively priced, at
least for me they are.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Epoxy fairing compound will wear a sanding disk away to zilch very quickly
so there was a lot of disks being replaced in a short time.

That may be it. If you are effectively wearing away the part of the dish
that holds every thing together there may be nothing substantial left to
pull the adhesive away from the pad. That normally does not happen when
working with wood.

If that is the case, I can sure see why you would prefer H&L. It all
depends on your needs and how you use the disks.

bridger wrote...

what pad cleaning I have had to do (in dry arizona) has been to get
sawdust off. quick alcohol wipe and back in biz...


Exactly the same here. Even the same "here," as I'm in AZ also. (G)

Jim