I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap with
a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool connector. The
nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I think is pipe
solder. I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits right
near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for? First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect. But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 6/1/2018 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap with
a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool connector.Â* The
nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I think is pipe
solder.Â* I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits right
near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for?Â* First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect.Â* But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.


Could it have been the conduit for an electric wire to some sort of
light at the end of your driveway

Have you tried to find the point that it enters hits the foundation of
the house? If you have a basement you may be able to find where it
comes through the basement wall.

In one house we had, there was an electrical line that came out of the
vent in the foundation of the house and disappeared under the ground. I
know they had a water feature in the front yard and assumed it was for
the pump.

--
2018: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre

On 6/1/18 3:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap with
a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool connector.Â* The
nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I think is pipe
solder.Â* I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits right
near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for?Â* First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect.Â* But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.


I dug it up at the foundation of the house and it has a 90° elbow coming
straight up, with a dry-fit cap, just a couple inches under the soil.

Mystery to me why it was put there, but here's the funny part.
I need to run electric out to my Sharn and am dreading having to get it
past the concrete driveway. The path of this pipe isn't the spot I
wanted to go, but since it's already under the patio pad, I might use
it. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 6/1/2018 5:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/1/18 3:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap
with a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool
connector.Â* The nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I
think is pipe solder.Â* I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits
right near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for?Â* First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect.Â* But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.


I dug it up at the foundation of the house and it has a 90° elbow coming
straight up, with a dry-fit cap, just a couple inches under the soil.

Mystery to me why it was put there, but here's the funny part.
I need to run electric out to my Sharn and am dreading having to get it
past the concrete driveway.Â* The path of this pipe isn't the spot I
wanted to go, but since it's already under the patio pad, I might use
it.Â*Â* :-)


See; I told you that it had an electrical cable;-)

--
2018: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre

-MIKE- wrote in news
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap with
a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool connector. The
nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I think is pipe
solder. I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits right
near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for? First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect. But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.



That air hose fitting makes me wonder if it was for a sprinkler of some
sort. In the winter, they could hook a compressor up to blow the pipes
out.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

-MIKE- on Fri, 1 Jun 2018 16:39:30 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:



I dug it up at the foundation of the house and it has a 90° elbow coming
straight up, with a dry-fit cap, just a couple inches under the soil.

Mystery to me why it was put there, but here's the funny part.
I need to run electric out to my Sharn and am dreading having to get it
past the concrete driveway. The path of this pipe isn't the spot I
wanted to go, but since it's already under the patio pad, I might use
it. :-)

Ah yes - "Before we start this project, lets take a look at what
we have, and we'll design it from there."
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 16:24:17 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

-MIKE- on Fri, 1 Jun 2018 16:39:30 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:



I dug it up at the foundation of the house and it has a 90° elbow coming
straight up, with a dry-fit cap, just a couple inches under the soil.

Mystery to me why it was put there, but here's the funny part.
I need to run electric out to my Sharn and am dreading having to get it
past the concrete driveway. The path of this pipe isn't the spot I
wanted to go, but since it's already under the patio pad, I might use
it. :-)

Ah yes - "Before we start this project, lets take a look at what
we have, and we'll design it from there."

Hey, that's better than "Before we figure out what we want to do,
let's take a look at what we have.".

On 6/1/2018 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap with
a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool connector. The
nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I think is pipe
solder. I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits right
near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for? First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect. But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.

Other than the "pneumatic male coupler" I'd guess it was put there in
case they wanted to run electric or water under the patio. Also, are
your sure it's a Pneumatic coupler and not a high pressure hose or
water quick connector? They look almost the same but are not.
Regardless, it would appear to me whatever it's purpose it was not used
so most likely put in "just in case".

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 6/1/2018 5:27 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:

In one house we had, there was an electrical line that came out of the
vent in the foundation of the house and disappeared under the ground. I
know they had a water feature in the front yard and assumed it was for
the pump.

Last summer I dug up a clogged gutter drain pipe 50' from my house.
When I pulled out the pipe, there was a 14 gauge electric wire crossing
under the pipe. Luckily I missed chopping up the wire by about an inch.
No idea what it was for, probably an old, long gone driveway lamp. Later
digging next to the house, I found a line coming out of the house about
a foot under ground going who knows where, but I think it is still live.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 6/2/18 7:51 AM, Jack wrote:
On 6/1/2018 4:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap with
a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool connector.Â* The
nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I think is pipe
solder.Â* I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits right
near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for?Â* First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect.Â* But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.

Other than the "pneumatic male coupler"Â* I'd guess it was put there in
case they wanted to run electric or water under the patio.Â* Also, are
your sure it's aÂ* Pneumatic coupler and not a high pressure hose or
water quick connector?Â* They look almost the same but are not.
Regardless, it would appear to me whatever it's purpose it was not used
so most likely put in "just in case".


I agree.
My guess was some sort of handheld watering system, but 1.5" sche40 is
not the way to go for that.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 6/1/18 4:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/1/18 3:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap
with a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool
connector.Â* The nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I
think is pipe solder.Â* I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits
right near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for?Â* First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect.Â* But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.


I dug it up at the foundation of the house and it has a 90° elbow coming
straight up, with a dry-fit cap, just a couple inches under the soil.

Mystery to me why it was put there, but here's the funny part.
I need to run electric out to my Sharn and am dreading having to get it
past the concrete driveway.Â* The path of this pipe isn't the spot I
wanted to go, but since it's already under the patio pad, I might use
it.Â*Â* :-)


Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right turn
and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's leach
field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those bends on a
100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far enough
away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that I can go
straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 15:11:44 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper

Nowadays it is far wiser to Wifi to the garage.

grounding issues are always a problem, and I am speaking about the
earth ground differences. It can create a capacitance that will blow
out a NIC and sometimes the whole computing device electronics.

Even on high rise bldgs over a large footprint the grounding may be
different from one side of the bldg to the other and so you cannot
directly link devices for that reason. I have seen serious signal
degradation even on a 60 ft underground run that really slowed down
communications. Enclosed in water tight conduit and verified it was
dry and no shorts due to scuffing when the cable was pulled.

Just a thought.

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

on Fri, 01 Jun 2018 23:01:51 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 16:24:17 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

-MIKE- on Fri, 1 Jun 2018 16:39:30 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:



I dug it up at the foundation of the house and it has a 90° elbow coming
straight up, with a dry-fit cap, just a couple inches under the soil.

Mystery to me why it was put there, but here's the funny part.
I need to run electric out to my Sharn and am dreading having to get it
past the concrete driveway. The path of this pipe isn't the spot I
wanted to go, but since it's already under the patio pad, I might use
it. :-)

Ah yes - "Before we start this project, lets take a look at what
we have, and we'll design it from there."

Hey, that's better than "Before we figure out what we want to do,
let's take a look at what we have.".

Done that too.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:05:50 AM UTC-4, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/1/18 4:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/1/18 3:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap
with a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool
connector.Â* The nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I
think is pipe solder.Â* I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits
right near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for?Â* First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect.Â* But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.


I dug it up at the foundation of the house and it has a 90° elbow coming
straight up, with a dry-fit cap, just a couple inches under the soil.

Mystery to me why it was put there, but here's the funny part.
I need to run electric out to my Sharn and am dreading having to get it
past the concrete driveway.Â* The path of this pipe isn't the spot I
wanted to go, but since it's already under the patio pad, I might use
it.Â*Â* :-)


Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right turn
and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's leach
field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those bends on a
100'+ run.

Would you have to pull through the bends in one pull? Could you do it in sections before you
glue(?) the connections? That's how I did the power and cable (TV) out to my shed.

Pull it through a bend into the open air, then slip on a length of straight pipe, twist to glue,
wash, rinse, repeat until the destination is reached.



On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far enough
away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that I can go
straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 6/2/18 6:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:05:50 AM UTC-4, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/1/18 4:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 6/1/18 3:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I'm getting ready to build a "Florida Room" on the back of our house.
I'm clearing out some bushes and plants to make way for the addition.
I found a 1.5" sch.40 PVC pipe running straight away from the house,
next to the driveway pad, in between the pad and where all the
vegetation was planted.

On the far end out near the vegetation, was a PVC threaded end cap
with a pipe-thread adapter and a pneumatic male coupler tool
connector.Â* The nipple hole of the coupler had been sealed with what I
think is pipe solder.Â* I drilled it out and it had the same consistency.

I sent a plumbing snake up the pipe towards the house and it hits
right near the foundation, but not any further in.

Any ideas what this was used for?Â* First thing I thought was some sort
of hand watering quick connect.Â* But why 1.5" sch.40?

By the way, the inside of the pipe was bone cry and fairly clean.

Weird.


I dug it up at the foundation of the house and it has a 90° elbow coming
straight up, with a dry-fit cap, just a couple inches under the soil.

Mystery to me why it was put there, but here's the funny part.
I need to run electric out to my Sharn and am dreading having to get it
past the concrete driveway.Â* The path of this pipe isn't the spot I
wanted to go, but since it's already under the patio pad, I might use
it.Â*Â* :-)


Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right turn
and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's leach
field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those bends on a
100'+ run.

Would you have to pull through the bends in one pull? Could you do it in sections before you
glue(?) the connections? That's how I did the power and cable (TV) out to my shed.

Pull it through a bend into the open air, then slip on a length of straight pipe, twist to glue,
wash, rinse, repeat until the destination is reached.


That's an option, yes.
I'd rather not do that.
My friend is an electrical engineer with AEP and he's advising me on the
best way to do it. We discussed that option and for varies reasons,
decided against it.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.

On 6/2/18 7:37 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.


60 cycle interference?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 17:37:45 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.

The important issue is what code says and I believe that code says
that data cable must be in a separate conduit from power cable.

The crosstalk issue, while real, is much overblown--AC is 60Hz,
Ethernet today is 100-250 Mhz. Any 250 Mhz transcierver that can't
reject 60Hz is crap. The overvoltage issue is also overblown with
Ethernet--modern Ethernet is transformer-coupled and in any case the
actual risk if you blow both ends is under a hundred bucks worth of
hardware.

It was more of an issue with phones--nobody wanted to answer the phone
and get a load of high voltage for his trouble.

The big issue though is that somewhere down the road some moron is
going to assume that there is only data cable in the conduit, run a
fish tape down it with the power on, zap himself, and possibly burn
down the building.

In the early 1980s the Hamilton-Standard factory in Windsor Locks CT
(roughly a million square feet, roughly 10,000 employees) was shut
down for a day because somebody tried to pull a phone line through a
power conduit. He got himself electrocuted (he survived mostly due to
the fast action of one of the engineers) and set the building on fire.
Part of the factory was shut down for a week due to no power while the
conduit was replaced and the wiring pulled and tested, this time sans
data cables.

This is the big reason to keep them isolated.

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.

On 6/2/18 9:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.


My guy says the trend will be back to wired, because wireless is getting
too clogged up.
Wired is still faster and more reliable and will be for the foreseeable
future or until they find new frequencies. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 22:23:54 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 9:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.


My guy says the trend will be back to wired, because wireless is getting
too clogged up.

I don't believe that at all. Antenna diversity and MIMO solve these
problems in all but the most dense living situations.

Wired is still faster and more reliable and will be for the foreseeable
future or until they find new frequencies. :-)

There is such a thing as "fast enough". We have exactly one wired link
in our house (that the cable company put in), basically because
there's no point in adding any more.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:53:25 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 7:37 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.


60 cycle interference?

In is unsafe to take a chance with high voltage crossing over to a
consumer device. There is also the electromagnetic effect, especially
on an A/C system with its varying loads. On systems with variable
speed drives there are multiple problems, and it is also a Code
violation in most places. It is not even recommended to mix land line
phone lines in the walls, or conduit, and any box.

The twist in CAT cables knocks out a lot of noise but not all noise.

There are more technical reasons as well, but I'd have to look it up,
I just recently threw away all my books, manuals, etc. figuring I have
been retired long enough that I'd not ever need them again.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:09:48 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 17:37:45 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.

The important issue is what code says and I believe that code says
that data cable must be in a separate conduit from power cable.

The crosstalk issue, while real, is much overblown--AC is 60Hz,
Ethernet today is 100-250 Mhz. Any 250 Mhz transcierver that can't
reject 60Hz is crap. The overvoltage issue is also overblown with
Ethernet--modern Ethernet is transformer-coupled and in any case the
actual risk if you blow both ends is under a hundred bucks worth of
hardware.


Have you ever seen someone zapped with high voltage when they touched
their computer case? Yes, I know the in most cases the NIC will act as
a fuse, but not always.

It was more of an issue with phones--nobody wanted to answer the phone
and get a load of high voltage for his trouble.

The big issue though is that somewhere down the road some moron is
going to assume that there is only data cable in the conduit, run a
fish tape down it with the power on, zap himself, and possibly burn
down the building.

In the early 1980s the Hamilton-Standard factory in Windsor Locks CT
(roughly a million square feet, roughly 10,000 employees) was shut
down for a day because somebody tried to pull a phone line through a
power conduit. He got himself electrocuted (he survived mostly due to
the fast action of one of the engineers) and set the building on fire.
Part of the factory was shut down for a week due to no power while the
conduit was replaced and the wiring pulled and tested, this time sans
data cables.

This is the big reason to keep them isolated.

Yes, it is the biggest reason, but when you get network speeds running
really slow because of the crap interference, and this being a daily
issue it is quite costly.

I've seen T1 data lines running at 2mbits because of it, and a db
backup that would take multiple hours as opposed to minutes because of
it, add that to normal network traffic and it is ridiculous.

In one job I did a log of the bit rates over a period of time to show
consistency of the loads and loss of data speed verses what a properly
installed data line would do, and they ended up not only paying the
money to replace the entire line but upgraded the speed so that there
was no negative impact whatever was happening.

In that case they thought they could not afford the cost of
replacement, and over a period of years they just got used to it and
considered in "normal" for that site. So I basically invested my own
time to do this and show them what their real costs were. After that
their eyes were opened and they started looking at all their remote
sites to see if they were getting what they were paying for.

I got nothing out of it, but thanks from the employee's that were
effected. That was good enough for me.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:19:47 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:09:48 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 17:37:45 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.

The important issue is what code says and I believe that code says
that data cable must be in a separate conduit from power cable.

The crosstalk issue, while real, is much overblown--AC is 60Hz,
Ethernet today is 100-250 Mhz. Any 250 Mhz transcierver that can't
reject 60Hz is crap. The overvoltage issue is also overblown with
Ethernet--modern Ethernet is transformer-coupled and in any case the
actual risk if you blow both ends is under a hundred bucks worth of
hardware.


Have you ever seen someone zapped with high voltage when they touched
their computer case? Yes, I know the in most cases the NIC will act as
a fuse, but not always.

If the NIC acts as a fuse, the NIC was a piece of **** to begin with.
What part of "transformer coupled" are you having trouble with? Unless
someone has screwed up there is NO contact between a twisted pair
Ethernet cable and any part of the computer case, directly or
indirectly.

Getting zapped by a floating ground with Token Ring or Arcnet or
coaxial Ethernet are more likely occurrances--all of those use
shielded cable with the shields grounded to the chassis. But those
have all been dead for a couple of decades now.

It was more of an issue with phones--nobody wanted to answer the phone
and get a load of high voltage for his trouble.

The big issue though is that somewhere down the road some moron is
going to assume that there is only data cable in the conduit, run a
fish tape down it with the power on, zap himself, and possibly burn
down the building.

In the early 1980s the Hamilton-Standard factory in Windsor Locks CT
(roughly a million square feet, roughly 10,000 employees) was shut
down for a day because somebody tried to pull a phone line through a
power conduit. He got himself electrocuted (he survived mostly due to
the fast action of one of the engineers) and set the building on fire.
Part of the factory was shut down for a week due to no power while the
conduit was replaced and the wiring pulled and tested, this time sans
data cables.

This is the big reason to keep them isolated.

Yes, it is the biggest reason, but when you get network speeds running
really slow because of the crap interference, and this being a daily
issue it is quite costly.

Quite costly to some guy running cable from his house to his garage?
OK, tell us exactly how much it costs him, in dollars, to be getting
500 Mb/sec instead 1000 Mb/sec.

I've seen T1 data lines running at 2mbits because of it, and a db
backup that would take multiple hours as opposed to minutes because of
it, add that to normal network traffic and it is ridiculous.

You just blew your cred. T1 is rated for 1.544 Mb/sec. If you were
getting 2 then it was exceeding its rated performance and you have
nothing to complain about.

In any case, nobody is going to be running a T1 from their house to
their garage on a CAT6 cable. What's going to be running on it, in
2018, is gigabit Ethernet.

In one job I did a log of the bit rates over a period of time to show
consistency of the loads and loss of data speed verses what a properly
installed data line would do, and they ended up not only paying the
money to replace the entire line but upgraded the speed so that there
was no negative impact whatever was happening.

That's nice. What does it have to do with some guy running a wire
from his house to his garage?

In that case they thought they could not afford the cost of
replacement, and over a period of years they just got used to it and
considered in "normal" for that site. So I basically invested my own
time to do this and show them what their real costs were. After that
their eyes were opened and they started looking at all their remote
sites to see if they were getting what they were paying for.

I got nothing out of it, but thanks from the employee's that were
effected. That was good enough for me.

Well that's all well and good. So how much measured degradtation have
you experiences in wires run from people's houses to people's garages
carrying gigabit?

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 22:41:44 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.

Actually you need a lot more if you are doing multiple TV's on the
Net, computers, etc. I have High speed WIFI necessary because things
move around here a lot, plus we can use it in the back yard and
garage. With the grand kids here and online video games plus the video
interaction you need a good home backbone, and I can certainly tell
the difference between hardwired network to my HO computer verse wifi
to laptops, phones and tablets.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:03:30 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:53:25 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 7:37 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.


60 cycle interference?

In is unsafe to take a chance with high voltage crossing over to a
consumer device. There is also the electromagnetic effect, especially
on an A/C system with its varying loads. On systems with variable
speed drives there are multiple problems, and it is also a Code
violation in most places. It is not even recommended to mix land line
phone lines in the walls, or conduit, and any box.

The twist in CAT cables knocks out a lot of noise but not all noise.

There are more technical reasons as well, but I'd have to look it up,
I just recently threw away all my books, manuals, etc. figuring I have
been retired long enough that I'd not ever need them again.

The code violation is the real issue. A 250 Mhz circuit is not going
to even see 60Hz unless it's of such magnitude that it generates an
arcover in the isolation transformers.

Note that phone line considerations are different from data. 60Hz is
audible--if you've got 60Hz interference on a phone line you can
_hear_ it. A 250 MHz data line is another story.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 22:23:54 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 9:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.


My guy says the trend will be back to wired, because wireless is getting
too clogged up.
Wired is still faster and more reliable and will be for the foreseeable
future or until they find new frequencies. :-)

He is right. Especially when you find out how easy it is to hack WIFI
to the homes and businesses around you, especially on those that
haven't a clue about security. Years ago I used to connect up and
print out messages on their printers to clue them in.

On 6/2/18 11:03 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:53:25 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 7:37 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.


60 cycle interference?

In is unsafe to take a chance with high voltage crossing over to a
consumer device. There is also the electromagnetic effect, especially
on an A/C system with its varying loads. On systems with variable
speed drives there are multiple problems, and it is also a Code
violation in most places. It is not even recommended to mix land line
phone lines in the walls, or conduit, and any box.

The twist in CAT cables knocks out a lot of noise but not all noise.

There are more technical reasons as well, but I'd have to look it up,
I just recently threw away all my books, manuals, etc. figuring I have
been retired long enough that I'd not ever need them again.


Well, I may end up running a metal conduit along side to get the
shielding for whatever data wire I run out there.
When I was in TCOM, we microwaved everything, so maybe I'll just do
that. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 23:40:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 22:23:54 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 9:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.


My guy says the trend will be back to wired, because wireless is getting
too clogged up.

I don't believe that at all. Antenna diversity and MIMO solve these
problems in all but the most dense living situations.

Wired is still faster and more reliable and will be for the foreseeable
future or until they find new frequencies. :-)

There is such a thing as "fast enough". We have exactly one wired link
in our house (that the cable company put in), basically because
there's no point in adding any more.

Wait till you see a decent fiber optic system and the possible speeds
and want to run 4k TV on wire for viewing new movies, especially on
more than one TV at a time. with full sound, using limited compression
and loss of musical tones.

Of course with the way my ears are going.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:37:33 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 22:41:44 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.

Actually you need a lot more if you are doing multiple TV's on the
Net, computers, etc.

A lot more than TEN BILLION BITS PER SECOND?

I have High speed WIFI necessary because things
move around here a lot, plus we can use it in the back yard and
garage. With the grand kids here and online video games plus the video
interaction you need a good home backbone, and I can certainly tell
the difference between hardwired network to my HO computer verse wifi
to laptops, phones and tablets.

How old is your wifi? If it's not 802.11n at least, it's time to
upgrade.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:41:25 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 22:23:54 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 9:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.


My guy says the trend will be back to wired, because wireless is getting
too clogged up.
Wired is still faster and more reliable and will be for the foreseeable
future or until they find new frequencies. :-)

He is right. Especially when you find out how easy it is to hack WIFI
to the homes and businesses around you, especially on those that
haven't a clue about security. Years ago I used to connect up and
print out messages on their printers to clue them in.

Wired is faster, but how fast do you NEED? I see no evidence of a
trend to wired for residential use.

As for ease of hacking, this is mostly FUD. Has any data breach
causing economic harm to anyone _ever_ been traced to a wifi hack?

Most data thieves don't go after Joe Homeowner or Fred's Pizza. They
go after somebody who is likely to have enough in assets accessible by
computer to actually be worth stealing.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:46:53 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 23:40:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 22:23:54 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 9:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 02:10:39 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

-MIKE- wrote in news
On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to
the garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be
worth digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a
punch down connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you
take certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you
must go close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded
pipe. I didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I
didn't research them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.



I wasn't aware CAT10 was a thing yet. AFAICT, they're only up to CAT7.

A quick search (I'm not an expert, not even claiming to be) doesn't show
any results for CAT10. Wonder if he meant something different?

FWIW, I'd put the LAN cables in a different conduit as well. You know
that LAN standards will evolve for a while longer and you might decide 20
years down the road it's worth upgrading to faster cable. It'd be easier
to pull the cables out if all that's there is LAN and you don't have
another cable you need to stay put.

While I agree that it's good to have the cables separated, I would be
very surprised if anything above 10GB/sec was common for home use in
20 years. The trend is to wifi, not faster wired networks.


My guy says the trend will be back to wired, because wireless is getting
too clogged up.

I don't believe that at all. Antenna diversity and MIMO solve these
problems in all but the most dense living situations.

Wired is still faster and more reliable and will be for the foreseeable
future or until they find new frequencies. :-)

There is such a thing as "fast enough". We have exactly one wired link
in our house (that the cable company put in), basically because
there's no point in adding any more.

Wait till you see a decent fiber optic system and the possible speeds
and want to run 4k TV on wire for viewing new movies, especially on
more than one TV at a time. with full sound, using limited compression
and loss of musical tones.

I have no trouble running 4K TV over the built-in wifi in my TV. What
leads you to believe that is has some enormous bandwidth demand?

As for "possible speeds", other than bragging rights what do these
"possible speeds" get you?

Of course with the way my ears are going.

On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 00:38:01 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:03:30 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:53:25 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 7:37 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.


60 cycle interference?

In is unsafe to take a chance with high voltage crossing over to a
consumer device. There is also the electromagnetic effect, especially
on an A/C system with its varying loads. On systems with variable
speed drives there are multiple problems, and it is also a Code
violation in most places. It is not even recommended to mix land line
phone lines in the walls, or conduit, and any box.

The twist in CAT cables knocks out a lot of noise but not all noise.

There are more technical reasons as well, but I'd have to look it up,
I just recently threw away all my books, manuals, etc. figuring I have
been retired long enough that I'd not ever need them again.

The code violation is the real issue. A 250 Mhz circuit is not going
to even see 60Hz unless it's of such magnitude that it generates an
arcover in the isolation transformers.

Note that phone line considerations are different from data. 60Hz is
audible--if you've got 60Hz interference on a phone line you can
_hear_ it. A 250 MHz data line is another story.

It isn't as cut n dry as you might think. Run a scope on the signal
look for the interference. If what you said were true you wouldn't
need a certain amount twists per a foot of Wire.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 23:41:57 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 11:03 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:53:25 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 7:37 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.


60 cycle interference?

In is unsafe to take a chance with high voltage crossing over to a
consumer device. There is also the electromagnetic effect, especially
on an A/C system with its varying loads. On systems with variable
speed drives there are multiple problems, and it is also a Code
violation in most places. It is not even recommended to mix land line
phone lines in the walls, or conduit, and any box.

The twist in CAT cables knocks out a lot of noise but not all noise.

There are more technical reasons as well, but I'd have to look it up,
I just recently threw away all my books, manuals, etc. figuring I have
been retired long enough that I'd not ever need them again.


Well, I may end up running a metal conduit along side to get the
shielding for whatever data wire I run out there.
When I was in TCOM, we microwaved everything, so maybe I'll just do
that. :-)

There is that option, as well as WIFI with the right antennae's. We
have installed systems at low cost that were acceptable over several
miles.

A wired system might need a signal booster/repeater depending on the
total conduit feet run. I'd be tempted to run an above ground test
setup with a computer at the other end plugged into the power supply
in that bldg and run a speed test via software and see if there are
little to no problems.

I might have problems with being a bit overcautious here.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 22:25:03 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 00:38:01 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:03:30 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:53:25 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 7:37 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.


60 cycle interference?

In is unsafe to take a chance with high voltage crossing over to a
consumer device. There is also the electromagnetic effect, especially
on an A/C system with its varying loads. On systems with variable
speed drives there are multiple problems, and it is also a Code
violation in most places. It is not even recommended to mix land line
phone lines in the walls, or conduit, and any box.

The twist in CAT cables knocks out a lot of noise but not all noise.

There are more technical reasons as well, but I'd have to look it up,
I just recently threw away all my books, manuals, etc. figuring I have
been retired long enough that I'd not ever need them again.

The code violation is the real issue. A 250 Mhz circuit is not going
to even see 60Hz unless it's of such magnitude that it generates an
arcover in the isolation transformers.

Note that phone line considerations are different from data. 60Hz is
audible--if you've got 60Hz interference on a phone line you can
_hear_ it. A 250 MHz data line is another story.

It isn't as cut n dry as you might think. Run a scope on the signal
look for the interference. If what you said were true you wouldn't
need a certain amount twists per a foot of Wire.

Twisted pair ethernet is unidirectional on a given pair. Gigabit uses
four pairs, two carrying signal one way and two carrying it the other
way. It's crosstalk on those pairs that is the major driver in the
spec.

On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 00:35:08 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:19:47 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 21:09:48 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 17:37:45 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.

The important issue is what code says and I believe that code says
that data cable must be in a separate conduit from power cable.

The crosstalk issue, while real, is much overblown--AC is 60Hz,
Ethernet today is 100-250 Mhz. Any 250 Mhz transcierver that can't
reject 60Hz is crap. The overvoltage issue is also overblown with
Ethernet--modern Ethernet is transformer-coupled and in any case the
actual risk if you blow both ends is under a hundred bucks worth of
hardware.


Have you ever seen someone zapped with high voltage when they touched
their computer case? Yes, I know the in most cases the NIC will act as
a fuse, but not always.

If the NIC acts as a fuse, the NIC was a piece of **** to begin with.
What part of "transformer coupled" are you having trouble with? Unless
someone has screwed up there is NO contact between a twisted pair
Ethernet cable and any part of the computer case, directly or
indirectly.


It is not designed to act as one, it is just that there is a certain
chip in their that has a high failure rate and has actually save many
computers as a result.

Pulling wires often scuffs insulation with resulting voltage bleed or
high capacitance charge. Don't believe me, then run a megohm test on
the wire to the conduit or attached motors. I have seen more than one
erratic operating piece of equipment that was due to this and it
affect all electronics associated with it.

I have also felt capacitance grounding by touching a computer and
another metal electric device that had a proper ground and not just
some two wire plug.

Getting zapped by a floating ground with Token Ring or Arcnet or
coaxial Ethernet are more likely occurrances--all of those use
shielded cable with the shields grounded to the chassis. But those
have all been dead for a couple of decades now.


That is true as well.

It was more of an issue with phones--nobody wanted to answer the phone
and get a load of high voltage for his trouble.

The big issue though is that somewhere down the road some moron is
going to assume that there is only data cable in the conduit, run a
fish tape down it with the power on, zap himself, and possibly burn
down the building.

In the early 1980s the Hamilton-Standard factory in Windsor Locks CT
(roughly a million square feet, roughly 10,000 employees) was shut
down for a day because somebody tried to pull a phone line through a
power conduit. He got himself electrocuted (he survived mostly due to
the fast action of one of the engineers) and set the building on fire.
Part of the factory was shut down for a week due to no power while the
conduit was replaced and the wiring pulled and tested, this time sans
data cables.

This is the big reason to keep them isolated.

Yes, it is the biggest reason, but when you get network speeds running
really slow because of the crap interference, and this being a daily
issue it is quite costly.

Quite costly to some guy running cable from his house to his garage?
OK, tell us exactly how much it costs him, in dollars, to be getting
500 Mb/sec instead 1000 Mb/sec.

What if he only got 2Mbps? WIFI can eliminate all that, and be less
expensive as well.



I've seen T1 data lines running at 2mbits because of it, and a db
backup that would take multiple hours as opposed to minutes because of
it, add that to normal network traffic and it is ridiculous.

You just blew your cred. T1 is rated for 1.544 Mb/sec. If you were
getting 2 then it was exceeding its rated performance and you have
nothing to complain about.


It was actually a T3 for that case. You are right, and I have also
been retired more than long enough to forget all the figures on a
moments notice. I'm currently only concerned about what goes on here
at home.

I also still have a few routers, switches and stuff, Cisco commercial
products, wanna buy them and get them off my hands?

In any case, nobody is going to be running a T1 from their house to
their garage on a CAT6 cable. What's going to be running on it, in
2018, is gigabit Ethernet.

Of course not, the switchgear costs alone would be prohibitive, plus
the cabling. But he could run fiber optics and never have any of the
problems associated with hard wire systems.

If my creds are so important to you then you can call Cisco and see
what all I was certified for at the time. I am not keeping my certs
updated because I am retired. Get it?


In one job I did a log of the bit rates over a period of time to show
consistency of the loads and loss of data speed verses what a properly
installed data line would do, and they ended up not only paying the
money to replace the entire line but upgraded the speed so that there
was no negative impact whatever was happening.

That's nice. What does it have to do with some guy running a wire
from his house to his garage?


Explaining or rationalizing why it is important to do it right in the
first place.

In that case they thought they could not afford the cost of
replacement, and over a period of years they just got used to it and
considered in "normal" for that site. So I basically invested my own
time to do this and show them what their real costs were. After that
their eyes were opened and they started looking at all their remote
sites to see if they were getting what they were paying for.

I got nothing out of it, but thanks from the employee's that were
effected. That was good enough for me.

Well that's all well and good. So how much measured degradtation have
you experiences in wires run from people's houses to people's garages
carrying gigabit?

I didn't do houses expect for friends. But the ground field for the
bldg is a big issue in such cases which I addressed in another post.

If I gave you my full resume from all the years I've worked you would
probably call me a liar too. Oh well. what's a guy to do?

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 22:34:23 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 23:41:57 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 11:03 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:53:25 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 7:37 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:26:12 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 6/2/18 10:11 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Funnier part... finding this pipe under the pad distracted me so much
that I forgot that I had already figured all this out. :-)
I can't use that path because it I would have to take a hard right
turn and then another left to go around the end of the septic system's
leach field. I don't like the prospect of pulling #6 through those
bends on a 100'+ run.

On the far edge of the driveway is a row of 80ft Poplars. Because I
don't want to dig through their major roots, I can't use a ditch-witch
to trench that path.

At the corner of the garage where I intended to start the underground
conduit, there is an expansion joint in the parking area pad with
asphalt expansion joint filler. The path along that joint is far
enough away from the leach bed and far enough from the tree roots that
I can go straight back along that expansion joint.
All I have to do is rent a concrete saw and make one cut a few inches
from the existing expansion joint and then fill it back in with
Quickcrete when I'm done laying the conduit.

That will be easier than hand digging a trench around 3-4" tree roots
and trying to weave the conduit over and under them.



My most recent wiring project was running outdoor rated CAT6 out to the
garage. You're already digging for one set of cable, might it be worth
digging for another? (Cat6 is easy to terminate, just use a punch down
connector and a decent punch tool.)

You can't run network cable close to power cable, though, unless you take
certain precautions. Parallel runs are a bad thing, but if you must go
close to power cables you can enclose the cable in a grounded pipe. I
didn't run in to these problems with my cable run, so I didn't research
them further.

Puckdropper


My buddy is an IT guru and he told me to run CAT10 with the AC and I'd
be fine.

I am Cisco certified, it is not recommended.


60 cycle interference?

In is unsafe to take a chance with high voltage crossing over to a
consumer device. There is also the electromagnetic effect, especially
on an A/C system with its varying loads. On systems with variable
speed drives there are multiple problems, and it is also a Code
violation in most places. It is not even recommended to mix land line
phone lines in the walls, or conduit, and any box.

The twist in CAT cables knocks out a lot of noise but not all noise.

There are more technical reasons as well, but I'd have to look it up,
I just recently threw away all my books, manuals, etc. figuring I have
been retired long enough that I'd not ever need them again.


Well, I may end up running a metal conduit along side to get the
shielding for whatever data wire I run out there.
When I was in TCOM, we microwaved everything, so maybe I'll just do
that. :-)

There is that option, as well as WIFI with the right antennae's.

Wifi _is_ microwave. It runs 2.5 or 5 GHz, both of which are solidly
in the microwave range.

We
have installed systems at low cost that were acceptable over several
miles.

A wired system might need a signal booster/repeater depending on the
total conduit feet run. I'd be tempted to run an above ground test
setup with a computer at the other end plugged into the power supply
in that bldg and run a speed test via software and see if there are
little to no problems.

Signal booster? Repeater? You really are out of touch. Twisted pair
ethernet is rated for 100 meters with timing being the limiting
factor. You can't extend it with a signal booster or repeater. The
correct means of extending the range is to use a switch and another
100 meter run (hubs don't exist for anything above 10baseT--100baseTX
and gigabit are always switched). If you need an uninterrupted run
longer than 100 meters you need to go to fiber for that run. However
running from a house to a garage should not be 100 meters unless it's
a very large property.

I might have problems with being a bit overcautious here.