We snagged a curved front dresser from my Grandmother's house last weekend.
It was probably my Great-Grandmother's, but there's no way to know at this
point. My soon-to-graduate daughter wants it for wherever she ends up
living next year. Hopefully not with us! ;-)

http://imgur.com/E9kYOcJ

I'm pretty sure it's at least 100 years old, maybe 150. I say that because
of the Burrow's Brothers label denoting the Roller Guide Line. A Google
search seems to indicate that this system was used between the late 1800's
and early 1900's.

http://imgur.com/wOABR4V

There's a pair of rollers on the back of each drawer box and rollers on the
side rails of the dresser's frame. Two of the internal rollers are missing
so I'll have to make new ones. I found one of the domed head nails used
for the missing rollers in a drawer, but the other one is long gone.

http://imgur.com/JEUOS25

The drawer knobs were a little loose, so I removed the "screws" (nope!)
planning to add some glue and toothpicks to tighten them back up. It
turns out that the "screws" are actually bolts that thread into metal
inserts in the knobs. The inserts have a pair of points that dig into
the drawer front to prevent them from turning. Well, that's the theory
anyway.

http://imgur.com/0nhHOKd

The problem is that once the knobs get loose, they spin and the points
carve a circular groove in the drawer front leaving nothing for the
points to hold onto. Some of the inserts are also stripped, so I have a
some work to do on the knobs.

The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU

I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?

http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
be most welcome.

http://imgur.com/DlOn3QB

DerbyDad03 wrote:

I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?

http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
be most welcome.

Is this picture of the front of the drawer? If so, it appears to have a
molded edge that extends slightly beyond the front; is that correct? Is the
bottom flush to the bottom of the drawer front; i.e., nor set into a groove?

Is the bottom nailed to the borrom edge of the back?

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In either
case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

On Saturday, April 9, 2016 at 8:09:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
be most welcome.

Can you easily remove the drawer bottoms and flip them over? If so, then all you'll need to do is (sand smooth? and) apply a finish to the "new" surface.

Sonny

"dadiOH" wrote in :

DerbyDad03 wrote:

I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?

Is the bottom nailed to the borrom edge of the back?

This pictu http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU appears to show the
bottom nailed in 3 places at the back.

Plywood was invented before 1900, but I don't think it came
into common use until after WW1.

You may be able to take care of the sag by screwing (rather
than nailing) the bottom to the back in several places.

John

On 04/09/2016 8:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU

I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?

http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
be most welcome.
....

As J McCoy notes, they're nailed with brads; this is common construction
so the bottom can be replaced if necessary; if all four sides are
captured in groove then the only choice is to try to disassemble the
drawer itself...anyway, that aside, I'd recommend to _not_ do major
structural modifications; two suggestions.

1) use a _tiny_ drop of epoxy in _only_ the nail holes and sufficiently
small it won't glob up and glue the bottom to the rear drawer bottom and
re-nail. I've had success if the drawers aren't subsequently
drastically overloaded in that the epoxy will hold the nail but you've
not ruined any chance of removing them for repair/replacement of the
bottom later by gluing the bottom itself...

2) there are only three (or maybe there's a fourth towards the left;
unclear from picture for certain) brads shown; whether that's all there
were or that's all there are left, having lost a couple of others, the
obvious fix in the vein of the original is to add a couple new ones in
fresh wood locations. I'd probably add a second near the existing and
then insert new between present locations.

Btw, the knob kickers can usually be fixed by a strategic insert of a
small patch inserted in the necessary location to provide a new "bite"
surface. I didn't look at all the pictures but have had a number of
these in the past when the SHMBO ran a small antiques booth in TN and
worked over a lot of pieces for her...that was a "trick" taught me by
Lonnie Bird in one of his seminars many, many years ago, now...

--

On 04/10/2016 9:57 AM, dpb wrote:
....

... I'd recommend to _not_ do major
structural modifications; two suggestions.
....

_IF_ it were to be considered necessary to add some mechanical fix, one
alternative that is mostly reversible I've used is to add a small
quarter-round on the inside, fastened with brads but no glue. Going at
90-deg angle to bottom and back gives quite a lot of strength with very
small brad/pin and leaves minimal residual damage if removed...and
drawer is still repairable going forward.

Start throwing new glue in places where it isn't precludes any further
repair that can't happen 'cuz can't safely remove the glue plus if one
does want to try to retain what value there is in the piece on any
future antiques market, those kinds of repairs will knock it out of the
collectible class immediately into just old furniture...

--

On Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:09:41 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
be most welcome.





I recently reinforced sagging drawer bottoms - on a modern dresser -
from the inside of the drawers ! I had some large 1 1/2 inch
hardwood dowel that I ripped in half - the halves were surprisingly
stiff & strong - placed them inside & screwed in from the drawer back
; toe-nail-screwed from inside the drawer into the drawer front ;
and up through the drawer bottom. The round-top of the dowel
looked ok inside the drawer, too ...
The crappy drawer construction made it difficult to fix any other way
- - you might have better options with a solid antique.
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 4/9/2016 9:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The drawer knobs were a little loose, so I removed the "screws"
(nope!)
planning to add some glue and toothpicks to tighten them back up. It
turns out that the "screws" are actually bolts that thread into metal
inserts in the knobs. The inserts have a pair of points that dig into
the drawer front to prevent them from turning. Well, that's the theory
anyway.

http://imgur.com/0nhHOKd

The problem is that once the knobs get loose, they spin and the points

carve a circular groove in the drawer front leaving nothing for the

points to hold onto. Some of the inserts are also stripped, so I have a
some work to do on the knobs.



The inserts in the knobs look like standard modern day Tee-nuts. Don't
know when they were invented, but the two pin ones are older than the 4
pin nuts. At any rate, you shouldn't need the pins at all to stop
spinning. Current day knobs just tighten down and don't spin. If these
don't tighten down enough to stop spinning, I'd think the bolt is too
long, or the knob is spinning around the tee-nut. If spinning around the
tee-nut some epoxy should fix it.

The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU

The picture indicates the bottom is either nailed to the bottom, or
fitted in groves on 3 sides, and open/nailed to the back, so removal
should be easy. I would remove the bottom, flip it over and screw it
wherever nails were used previously to attach it.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 12:21:25 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/9/2016 9:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The drawer knobs were a little loose, so I removed the "screws"
(nope!)
planning to add some glue and toothpicks to tighten them back up. It
turns out that the "screws" are actually bolts that thread into metal
inserts in the knobs. The inserts have a pair of points that dig into
the drawer front to prevent them from turning. Well, that's the theory
anyway.

http://imgur.com/0nhHOKd

The problem is that once the knobs get loose, they spin and the points

carve a circular groove in the drawer front leaving nothing for the

points to hold onto. Some of the inserts are also stripped, so I have a
some work to do on the knobs.



The inserts in the knobs look like standard modern day Tee-nuts. Don't
know when they were invented, but the two pin ones are older than the 4
pin nuts.

Having used my share of Tee-nuts, I can say with confidence that these are
similar but a far cry from "standard modern day Tee-nuts". The pins on a
Tee-nut point in the same direction as the threaded shaft and are used to
hold the tee-nut in the material that the tee-nut is in.

http://www.theboltbin.com/89-home_de...-4-prong-z.jpg

These inserts have the points pointed in the opposite direction so that they
stick into the material that the object with the insert is attached to.

At any rate, you shouldn't need the pins at all to stop
spinning. Current day knobs just tighten down and don't spin. If these
don't tighten down enough to stop spinning, I'd think the bolt is too
long,

Maybe the bolt stretched over the past 100+ years? (kidding!)

or the knob is spinning around the tee-nut. If spinning around the
tee-nut some epoxy should fix it.

Actually, on the ones that won't tighten down, it appears that the
inserts are stripped. I used the standard glue and toothpick method
and I was able to crank down on the bolts with substantial force.
We'll see how long they hold.


The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU

The picture indicates the bottom is either nailed to the bottom, or
fitted in groves on 3 sides, and open/nailed to the back, so removal
should be easy. I would remove the bottom, flip it over and screw it
wherever nails were used previously to attach it.


I wish removal was easy. I tried to remove one of the bottoms and it
certainly doesn't slide right out. The other one seems looser but I
haven't removed the nails yet to see if it jammed like the other one.

In any case, the interiors of the bottoms (and of the entire drawer) are
finished as shown he

http://imgur.com/wOABR4V
http://imgur.com/DlOn3QB

There is also damage (grooves) on the bottoms where they have dragged
on the metal tabs used as stops. The grooves are too deep to be sanded
away and besides, I'm sure I would never be able to match the bottom
finish to the side finish *and* make it look 100+ years old.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 10:58:18 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 04/09/2016 8:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU

I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?

http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
be most welcome.
...

As J McCoy notes, they're nailed with brads; this is common construction
so the bottom can be replaced if necessary; if all four sides are
captured in groove then the only choice is to try to disassemble the
drawer itself...anyway, that aside, I'd recommend to _not_ do major
structural modifications; two suggestions.

1) use a _tiny_ drop of epoxy in _only_ the nail holes and sufficiently
small it won't glob up and glue the bottom to the rear drawer bottom and
re-nail. I've had success if the drawers aren't subsequently
drastically overloaded in that the epoxy will hold the nail but you've
not ruined any chance of removing them for repair/replacement of the
bottom later by gluing the bottom itself...

2) there are only three (or maybe there's a fourth towards the left;
unclear from picture for certain) brads shown; whether that's all there
were or that's all there are left, having lost a couple of others, the
obvious fix in the vein of the original is to add a couple new ones in
fresh wood locations. I'd probably add a second near the existing and
then insert new between present locations.

Securing the back of the bottom to the back of the box may take care
of the sag from left to right, but the bottoms have actually taken on
kind of bowl shape.

Flattening the back by securing to the box hardly removes any of the
center sag.


Btw, the knob kickers can usually be fixed by a strategic insert of a
small patch inserted in the necessary location to provide a new "bite"
surface. I didn't look at all the pictures but have had a number of
these in the past when the SHMBO ran a small antiques booth in TN and
worked over a lot of pieces for her...that was a "trick" taught me by
Lonnie Bird in one of his seminars many, many years ago, now...


For now I used the standard glue and toothpick methods and I was able to
crank the bolts down really tight.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 12:12:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:09:41 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
be most welcome.





I recently reinforced sagging drawer bottoms - on a modern dresser -
from the inside of the drawers ! I had some large 1 1/2 inch
hardwood dowel that I ripped in half - the halves were surprisingly
stiff & strong - placed them inside & screwed in from the drawer back
; toe-nail-screwed from inside the drawer into the drawer front ;
and up through the drawer bottom. The round-top of the dowel
looked ok inside the drawer, too ...
The crappy drawer construction made it difficult to fix any other way
- - you might have better options with a solid antique.
John T.


That's a consideration. Thanks

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:30:20 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?

http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't
want to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them
would be most welcome.

Is this picture of the front of the drawer? If so, it appears to have
a molded edge that extends slightly beyond the front; is that correct?
Is the bottom flush to the bottom of the drawer front; i.e., nor set into a groove?

It's a close up of the previous picture, which is the back of the drawer showing the gap and (barely) the 3 nails "holding" the back of the bottom
into the back panel of the drawer box.

Here's the full back:

http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU

Now zoom in to the left of the center nail:

http://imgur.com/pRNq7Ab


Is the bottom nailed to the borrom edge of the back?

Yes, with 3 nails as seen in the picture if the full back.


Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below the
bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped, sagging left
to right as well as front to back.

On 04/10/2016 12:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

As J McCoy notes, they're nailed with brads; this is common construction
so the bottom can be replaced if necessary; if all four sides are
captured in groove then the only choice is to try to disassemble the
drawer itself...anyway, that aside, I'd recommend to _not_ do major
structural modifications; two suggestions.

1) use a _tiny_ drop of epoxy in _only_ the nail holes and sufficiently
small it won't glob up and glue the bottom to the rear drawer bottom and
re-nail. I've had success if the drawers aren't subsequently
drastically overloaded in that the epoxy will hold the nail but you've
not ruined any chance of removing them for repair/replacement of the
bottom later by gluing the bottom itself...

2) there are only three (or maybe there's a fourth towards the left;
unclear from picture for certain) brads shown; whether that's all there
were or that's all there are left, having lost a couple of others, the
obvious fix in the vein of the original is to add a couple new ones in
fresh wood locations. I'd probably add a second near the existing and
then insert new between present locations.

Securing the back of the bottom to the back of the box may take care
of the sag from left to right, but the bottoms have actually taken on
kind of bowl shape.

Flattening the back by securing to the box hardly removes any of the
center sag.
....

Well, you didn't provide sufficient info to know about it, either...

The question becomes one of how much you're willing to sacrifice from
original; another mentioned one option similar to that which I outlined
above which isn't _too_ obtrusive.

No dimensions given; depending on just how wide they are, I've had some
success in the past if they are solid material in dampening and
weighting as dry to reform them but that's a hit 'n miss proposition.
The one thing of it is that it basically is a no-cost/no-foul thing to
try as long as there's not veneer to lift.

Other than that, you can try simply the "invert and weight" (and wait)
technique.

--

On Sat, 9 Apr 2016 18:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

We snagged a curved front dresser from my Grandmother's house last
weekend. It was probably my Great-Grandmother's, but there's no way
to know at this point. My soon-to-graduate daughter wants it for


good to keep nice stuff in the family


was going to put drawer glides on some old drawers that just slide
on bare wood now

but i rubbed wax on the both parts and the drawers move so easy they
almost fly all the way out until you get used them sliding so easy

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 12:29:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below the
bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped, sagging left
to right as well as front to back.

I suppose your last option may be to remove the panel, moisten the raw (bottom) side for a day or so, then allow to dry in a "clamped" reverse curved position (over correct the curve, a bit), to correct the bowing... and hope that does the trick. I would suspect the wood is air dried, but sometimes old "cured" air dried wood acts as if it's kiln dried and is not always as bendable/reshapeable as new/newer air dried wood. I don't think you would damage the panel if you gave this a try.

Sonny

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 1:28:44 PM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:

I suppose your last option may be to remove the panel, moisten the raw (bottom) side for a day or so, then allow to dry in a "clamped" reverse curved position (over correct the curve, a bit), to correct the bowing... and hope that does the trick. I would suspect the wood is air dried, but sometimes old "cured" air dried wood acts as if it's kiln dried and is not always as bendable/reshapeable as new/newer air dried wood. I don't think you would damage the panel if you gave this a try.

If you do give this a try, then, as you're clamping the panel, listen closely for any small, minute sounds of cracking. Tiny cracking sounds indicate it's not bending properly, i.e., not bending as typical, as readily as, air dried lumber does.... or as steam bent lumber does. Even trying to steam bend old cured air dried lumber doesn't always work.... you can hear small cracking sounds, when trying to steam bend old cured air dried lumber. It doesn't steam bend properly, similarly as when trying to steam bend kiln dried lumber.

The bow in your panel doesn't appear to be too significant. You shouldn't have to recurve, over correct, the bowing too much, so a wet-bending option may work.

Sonny

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below the
bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped, sagging
left
to right as well as front to back.

Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one in the
center first, then one more on each side halfway between center and side.
That should fix the sag in both directions; if not, slack off the last two,
add another one (two more total) between them and center, then tighten the
loosened one.

dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
sagging left
to right as well as front to back.

Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if not,
slack off the last two, add another one (two more total) between them
and center, then tighten the loosened one.

Addendum: That will remove the belly in both directions as long as you
assure that the bottom is fully inserted into the front groove while you do
the screws.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 2:06:32 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 04/10/2016 12:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

As J McCoy notes, they're nailed with brads; this is common construction
so the bottom can be replaced if necessary; if all four sides are
captured in groove then the only choice is to try to disassemble the
drawer itself...anyway, that aside, I'd recommend to _not_ do major
structural modifications; two suggestions.

1) use a _tiny_ drop of epoxy in _only_ the nail holes and sufficiently
small it won't glob up and glue the bottom to the rear drawer bottom and
re-nail. I've had success if the drawers aren't subsequently
drastically overloaded in that the epoxy will hold the nail but you've
not ruined any chance of removing them for repair/replacement of the
bottom later by gluing the bottom itself...

2) there are only three (or maybe there's a fourth towards the left;
unclear from picture for certain) brads shown; whether that's all there
were or that's all there are left, having lost a couple of others, the
obvious fix in the vein of the original is to add a couple new ones in
fresh wood locations. I'd probably add a second near the existing and
then insert new between present locations.

Securing the back of the bottom to the back of the box may take care
of the sag from left to right, but the bottoms have actually taken on
kind of bowl shape.

Flattening the back by securing to the box hardly removes any of the
center sag.
...

Well, you didn't provide sufficient info to know about it, either...

The question becomes one of how much you're willing to sacrifice from
original; another mentioned one option similar to that which I outlined
above which isn't _too_ obtrusive.

No dimensions given; depending on just how wide they are, I've had some
success in the past if they are solid material in dampening and
weighting as dry to reform them but that's a hit 'n miss proposition.
The one thing of it is that it basically is a no-cost/no-foul thing to
try as long as there's not veneer to lift.

You are right, I didn't post any dimensions, so here they a

The interior of the drawers are 36" wide, 16 1/4" deep at the outer
edges, 18 1/4" deep at the center.

I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three spots,
completely closing the gap along the back. The front and sides of the
bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I placed a 36"
straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the drawers and
measured the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the drawer
at the center of the bottom.

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other. I'm guessing that those are
considerable gaps, probably too much for the dampening and weighting
technique, correct?



Other than that, you can try simply the "invert and weight" (and wait)
technique.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below the
bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped, sagging
left
to right as well as front to back.

Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one in the
center first, then one more on each side halfway between center and side.
That should fix the sag in both directions; if not, slack off the last two,
add another one (two more total) between them and center, then tighten the
loosened one.

Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in response
to dpb's post...

I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three spots,
completely closing the gap along the back. The front and sides of the
bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I placed a 36"
straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the drawers and
measured the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the drawer
at the center of the bottom.

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:35:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other. I'm guessing that those are
considerable gaps, probably too much for the dampening and weighting
technique, correct?


No, not at all. That degree of bow is a nominal curve, in both drawers, and should be easy to reverse, to some extent, using the wetted technique. If it bent one way, it should be able to be bent the other way. If still in doubt, bend it slowly, over time, then allow to dry. At least see what effect that has.

Sonny

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 9:06:31 PM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:35:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other. I'm guessing that those are
considerable gaps, probably too much for the dampening and weighting
technique, correct?


No, not at all. That degree of bow is a nominal curve, in both drawers, and should be easy to reverse, to some extent, using the wetted technique. If it bent one way, it should be able to be bent the other way. If still in doubt, bend it slowly, over time, then allow to dry.

Yeah, it took ~100 years to bend one way, and my daughter doesn't graduate
for another month, so I have lot's of time to reverse the bend. ;-)

So what about simply leaving the bottom in the drawer, wetting the raw bottom
and then placing the drawer face down under a table with an upside down dead
man wedged between table and the center of the bottom - over correcting the
curve - and letting it dry? I'd use the "bottom" of the deadman to spread the
pressure out (slightly) as opposed to it being a single pressure point.

Thoughts?

At least see what effect that has.

Sonny

Plywood is simply veneer over another surface. The technique is old.
The wood core is likely thick, e.g. 1/8" and veneers half that or less.
It was a matter of putting 'exotic' wood display with a stable core.

Martin

On 4/10/2016 9:28 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in :

DerbyDad03 wrote:

I think that they are solid wood (?) because I don't see any plies.
Did they use plywood for drawer bottoms back then?

Is the bottom nailed to the borrom edge of the back?

This pictu http://imgur.com/Y7aKfPU appears to show the
bottom nailed in 3 places at the back.

Plywood was invented before 1900, but I don't think it came
into common use until after WW1.

You may be able to take care of the sag by screwing (rather
than nailing) the bottom to the back in several places.

John

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
sagging
left
to right as well as front to back.

Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if not,
slack off the last two, add another one (two more total) between
them and center, then tighten the loosened one.

Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in
response to dpb's post...

I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three spots,
completely closing the gap along the back. The front and sides of the
bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I placed a 36"
straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the drawers and
measured the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the
drawer
at the center of the bottom.

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

And what happens if you push up on the bottom while it is clamped? Sag
disappear? If so, then either the bottom isn't fully seated in the grooves
or the grooves are too big. If not, try loosening the clamps THEN pushing.

On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 8:32:56 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

So what about simply leaving the bottom in the drawer, wetting the raw bottom
and then placing the drawer face down under a table with an upside down dead
man wedged between table and the center of the bottom - over correcting the
curve - and letting it dry? I'd use the "bottom" of the deadman to spread the
pressure out (slightly) as opposed to it being a single pressure point.

Thoughts?

It doesn't matter what technique you use to reverse (over correct) the bow/curve. If need be, try several techniques, see which one might work the best.

Again, as you bend it (slowly), listen for small/tiny cracking sounds. Bend the wood slowly (over a few hours, maybe), rewetting it periodically (if need be), if those small cracking sounds are heard. Old air dried cured wood will act like kiln dried wood.... sometimes difficult to rebend/reshape, with either wet or steam bending. In these difficult cases, you heard those small cracking sounds, as it's being bent/shaped.

Sonny

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 7:06:55 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides? In
either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
sagging
left
to right as well as front to back.

Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if not,
slack off the last two, add another one (two more total) between
them and center, then tighten the loosened one.

Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in
response to dpb's post...

I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three spots,
completely closing the gap along the back. The front and sides of the
bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I placed a 36"
straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the drawers and
measured the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the
drawer
at the center of the bottom.

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

And what happens if you push up on the bottom while it is clamped? Sag
disappear? If so, then either the bottom isn't fully seated in the grooves
or the grooves are too big. If not, try loosening the clamps THEN pushing.

OK, when I say fully seated in the grooves, I mean that as much wood as can
be seated with a *bowed* bottom is in the grooves.

Of course if the bottom is bowed the wood has to pull out of the grooves and
can no longer be fully, 100%, in the grooves.

Bottom line is that the bottom is bowed into a shallow bowl shape and
simply securely the bottom to the back of the box is not going to eliminate
the sag in the middle of the bottom. There is no way that your "simplest fix"
of 3 screws across the bottom into the back is going to flatten the 1/2"
sag in the center of the bottom. Yes, it will flatten the *back* of the
bottom but not the center of the bottom.

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 8:02:34 AM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 8:32:56 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

So what about simply leaving the bottom in the drawer, wetting the raw bottom
and then placing the drawer face down under a table with an upside down dead
man wedged between table and the center of the bottom - over correcting the
curve - and letting it dry? I'd use the "bottom" of the deadman to spread the
pressure out (slightly) as opposed to it being a single pressure point.

Thoughts?

It doesn't matter what technique you use to reverse (over correct) the bow/curve. If need be, try several techniques, see which one might work the best.

Again, as you bend it (slowly), listen for small/tiny cracking sounds. Bend the wood slowly (over a few hours, maybe), rewetting it periodically (if need be), if those small cracking sounds are heard. Old air dried cured wood will act like kiln dried wood.... sometimes difficult to rebend/reshape, with either wet or steam bending. In these difficult cases, you heard those small cracking sounds, as it's being bent/shaped.

Sonny

Thanks for the advice. I'll rig up something that I can extend downward in
small increments to apply pressure as I listen to the drawer bottom.

Martin Eastburn wrote in news:IiEOy.11705$__
:

Plywood is simply veneer over another surface.

Well, no, not really. To be plywood the layers have to have
the grain going crosswise (or, rarely, at 45 degree angles).
That is what gives plywood it's dimensional stability.

Granted there are modern day composites used for "plywood"
cores that don't have grain, but those didn't exist when the
first manufacturers started making plywood.

John

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag? Based on a prior post
where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.

I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.

John

On 04/11/2016 7:53 AM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in
:

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag? Based on a prior post
where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.

I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.

"...the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the drawer
at the center of the bottom."

That's pretty deeply bowed, indeed. Wonder what was in the drawers but
36" is a long unsupported span for what appears to be pretty thin material.

--

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 9:09:52 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 04/11/2016 7:53 AM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in
:

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag? Based on a prior post
where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.

I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.

"...the gap between the straight edge and the bottom of the drawer
at the center of the bottom."

That's pretty deeply bowed, indeed. Wonder what was in the drawers but
36" is a long unsupported span for what appears to be pretty thin material.

--

I haven't mic'ed the bottom, but it's probably 1/4". I'm not home right now,
so that's just a guess.

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

So you're saying there's 1/8" of sag?

No, I'm saying there is 3/8" sag on one drawer and 1/2" sag on the other.

Based on a prior post
where I think you said the sides extend 1/2" below the groove.

I don't think I'd worry about 1/8" of sag.


I wouldn't either, but that's not what I have.

The biggest problem with the dresser is that the bottoms of the long
drawers sag a bit (actually, a lot) so I may need to add some "beams"
to flatten them out. (suggestions welcome)

In any case, the insides of the drawers are finished and I don't want
to replace the bottoms. Again, suggestions for flattening them would
be most welcome.



I recently reinforced sagging drawer bottoms - on a modern dresser -
from the inside of the drawers ! I had some large 1 1/2 inch
hardwood dowel that I ripped in half - the halves were surprisingly
stiff & strong - placed them inside & screwed in from the drawer back
; toe-nail-screwed from inside the drawer into the drawer front ;
and up through the drawer bottom. The round-top of the dowel
looked ok inside the drawer, too ...
The crappy drawer construction made it difficult to fix any other way
- - you might have better options with a solid antique.
John T.


That's a consideration. Thanks


The hardwood brace/support also serves to strengthen
the drawer structure somewhat - joining the drawer-front
to the drawer back at the center.
All the other discussion about just reversing the drawer-bottom
curve, without adding bracing - seems like it might be temporary ?
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 04/11/2016 8:15 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 9:09:52 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
....

That's pretty deeply bowed, indeed. Wonder what was in the drawers but
36" is a long unsupported span for what appears to be pretty thin material.
....
I haven't mic'ed the bottom, but it's probably 1/4". I'm not home right now,
so that's just a guess.

"mic'ing" is a little overboard...

That's what I'd judged from the picture. Couldn't tell for certain if
was ply or solid bottom.

I'd still go with the "dampen and weight/wait" ploy first, but was
coming back to add that while I know you'd rather keep it original, with
that large of a drawer if you really want it to be a functional piece
again rather than just collector/display item, it may be that you should
consider building new drawer bottoms. If there's some clearance below,
in the aforementioned TN shop for SHMBO I replaced failed drawer bottoms
with 3/8" solid soft maple stock (rabbeted edge, of course, to fit
existing 1/4" groove). Soft maple because it's strong and neutral
color/grain and not excessively obtrusively "modern" as a piece of
current ply would be.

The alternative is, as also noted elsewhere and by others, use some
external stiffener either on bottom or inside the drawer--another ploy
in that regard that makes some more significant changes to the piece is
to add a middle divider so that you have another support in the middle
like the back. That, of course, changes the piece more but can be done
without terrible damage so can be (mostly) reversed but would leave signs.

Note to the daughter -- if you do get these unbowed, _nothing_ heavier
than the lightest of down pillows can be stored in those wide drawers...

--

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 7:06:55 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides?
In either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
sagging
left
to right as well as front to back.

Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if
not, slack off the last two, add another one (two more total)
between
them and center, then tighten the loosened one.

Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in
response to dpb's post...

I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three
spots, completely closing the gap along the back. The front and
sides of the bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I
placed a 36" straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the
drawers and measured the gap between the straight edge and the
bottom of the
drawer
at the center of the bottom.

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

And what happens if you push up on the bottom while it is clamped?
Sag disappear? If so, then either the bottom isn't fully seated in
the grooves or the grooves are too big. If not, try loosening the
clamps THEN pushing.

OK, when I say fully seated in the grooves, I mean that as much wood
as can be seated with a *bowed* bottom is in the grooves.

Of course if the bottom is bowed the wood has to pull out of the
grooves and can no longer be fully, 100%, in the grooves.

Bottom line is that the bottom is bowed into a shallow bowl shape and
simply securely the bottom to the back of the box is not going to
eliminate the sag in the middle of the bottom. There is no way that
your "simplest fix" of 3 screws across the bottom into the back is
going to flatten the 1/2"
sag in the center of the bottom. Yes, it will flatten the *back* of
the bottom but not the center of the bottom.

Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or, at
least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a couple of screws
through the bottom into the sides should take care of it.

The question is, why did it bow in the first place? I can only think of two
reasons...

1. The grooves are wider than the bottom is thick. If that is the case,
pushing the bottom flat and gluing in a few small wedges into the too wide
groove should fix it.

2. If the grooves are not wider than the bottom is thick then the drawer
sides have moved out of vertical and possibly parallel. Is the distance
between the sides exactly the same at both top and bottom all along their
length?

On 04/11/2016 9:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
....

Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or, at
least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a couple of screws
through the bottom into the sides should take care of it.

The length of the arc for a 1/2" sag in the center for a chord length of
36" is 36.0185" -- thus the movement on either end of the bottom is only
about 0.01". Not significant. There's no chance you can prevent that
kind of movement in wood w/ a mechanical fastener from the side (besides
the damage done to the piece in trying to do that).

The question is, why did it bow in the first place? I can only think of two
reasons...
....

The most probable reason it bowed was that it had too much weight stored
in the drawer for 100+/- year and it's simple relaxation over the
unsupported span. No different than setting the set of encyclopedias or
a 100-lb bust of Beethoven on a long, unsupported bookshelf and leaving
them there--over time the shelf _will_ sag unless it's far more than
just a 3/4" ordinary shelf. In this case, we don't know what was in the
dresser, but whatever it was was too much for a minimal initial design.
1/4" is not enough material for a 36" drawer for anything but the
lightest of loads.

--

On 04/11/2016 8:47 AM, wrote:
....

All the other discussion about just reversing the drawer-bottom
curve, without adding bracing - seems like it might be temporary ?
....

Depends on whether the drawer is subsequently overloaded again or not.

--

On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 10:07:29 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, April 11, 2016 at 7:06:55 AM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Groove or on top of a batten? How is it attached to the sides?
In either case, how much do the sides extend below the bottom?

Grooves in the sides and front. The groves extend about 1/2" below
the bottom panel. The bottom panel is now kind of bowl shaped,
sagging
left
to right as well as front to back.

Simplest fix is 3 screws through the bottom into the back. Put one
in the center first, then one more on each side halfway between
center and side. That should fix the sag in both directions; if
not, slack off the last two, add another one (two more total)
between
them and center, then tighten the loosened one.

Ah, if it were only that simple. To repeat what I just posted in
response to dpb's post...

I clamped the bottom of the drawers to the back of box in three
spots, completely closing the gap along the back. The front and
sides of the bottoms are fully seated in the grooves of the box. I
placed a 36" straight edge across the bottom of the interior of the
drawers and measured the gap between the straight edge and the
bottom of the
drawer
at the center of the bottom.

3/8" on one drawer, 1/2" on the other.

And what happens if you push up on the bottom while it is clamped?
Sag disappear? If so, then either the bottom isn't fully seated in
the grooves or the grooves are too big. If not, try loosening the
clamps THEN pushing.

OK, when I say fully seated in the grooves, I mean that as much wood
as can be seated with a *bowed* bottom is in the grooves.

Of course if the bottom is bowed the wood has to pull out of the
grooves and can no longer be fully, 100%, in the grooves.

Bottom line is that the bottom is bowed into a shallow bowl shape and
simply securely the bottom to the back of the box is not going to
eliminate the sag in the middle of the bottom. There is no way that
your "simplest fix" of 3 screws across the bottom into the back is
going to flatten the 1/2"
sag in the center of the bottom. Yes, it will flatten the *back* of
the bottom but not the center of the bottom.

Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or, at
least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a couple of screws
through the bottom into the sides should take care of it.

I understand that you are trying to help, but it appears that you aren't
quite grasping the situation. That is completely understandable, because
you haven't actually seen/touched the drawers.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but let me try it this way:

No amount of edge related reattachment is going to force the bottom of
drawers to flatten out. There is far to much "tension" in the bow for that
to work. Even if I push down in the center to remove most of the bow, there
is still some waviness out towards the sides.

Maybe, just maybe, if I flattened the bottom by sandwiching it between flat
pieces of stock and then added a *substantial* number of screws around the
perimeter, that might hold it, but I'm not going to try that for 2 reasons:

1 - I still think the wood will win
2 - I'm not going to butcher the drawers by adding a multitude of screws.

If I'm going to have to alter the drawers, I'll just replace the bottoms and
try to finish them as close to matching as possible.


The question is, why did it bow in the first place? I can only think of two
reasons...

1. The grooves are wider than the bottom is thick. If that is the case,
pushing the bottom flat and gluing in a few small wedges into the too wide
groove should fix it.


2. If the grooves are not wider than the bottom is thick then the drawer
sides have moved out of vertical and possibly parallel. Is the distance
between the sides exactly the same at both top and bottom all along their
length?

There are at least 2 more possibilities, probably a combination of both. I
list these in no particular order:

- Obviously, years of weight on a 36" x 18" piece of 1/4" wood (or even
plywood) could cause considerable warpage. I can't speak to the contents
of the drawers over the years, but anything other more substantial than
linens could certainly have warped the bottoms.

- The bottom side of the drawer bottoms are unfinished, the tops are finished
with what I assume is varnish. I can only assume (I'm no expert by any means)
that the raw bottom would have absorbed more moisture over the years, resulting
in swelling/uneven movement.

Add weight to a "wet" board and you're exacerbating the problem

Bottom line, and I know you'd agree if you saw the drawers, the bottoms are
bowed beyond the point where edge attachments are going to flatten them.

dpb wrote:
On 04/11/2016 9:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...

Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or,
at least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a
couple of screws through the bottom into the sides should take care
of it.

The length of the arc for a 1/2" sag in the center for a chord length
of 36" is 36.0185" -- thus the movement on either end of the bottom
is only about 0.01". Not significant. There's no chance you can
prevent that kind of movement in wood w/ a mechanical fastener from the
side
(besides the damage done to the piece in trying to do that).

No, not from the side, through the side and bottom from the bottom of the
side; i,e, vertically, not horizontally.

On 04/11/2016 1:34 PM, dadiOH wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 04/11/2016 9:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...

Which means that you have to get the bottom fully into the grooves. Or,
at least, far enough to remove the "belly". Once there, a
couple of screws through the bottom into the sides should take care
of it.

The length of the arc for a 1/2" sag in the center for a chord length
of 36" is 36.0185" -- thus the movement on either end of the bottom
is only about 0.01". Not significant. There's no chance you can
prevent that kind of movement in wood w/ a mechanical fastener from the
side (besides the damage done to the piece in trying to do that).

No, not from the side, through the side and bottom from the bottom of the
side; i,e, vertically, not horizontally.

Never work, DD's perfectly correct in that; it's the side of the
fastener that you're expecting to constrain less than 10-thou movement
with--ain't a'gonna' happen, wood simply isn't that rigid, plus, as he
says, it'll cobble up the drawer itself somethin' awful in the attempt.

--