Electric Comet wrote in news:md04kf$i7f$1
@dont-email.me:

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:18:40 -0600
Leon wrote:

results. I only need roughly close to get good results. For instance

roughly close doesn't make sense it's either adjusted or no
I'll agree some saws are hard to keep adjusted and some aren't

I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension
just so, the blade cuts straight as long as the tension is
close. You don't have to set the guides precisely, the
blade tracks straight as long as they're close.

Having said that, I'm of the impression that the blade makes
a lot more difference than the saw - some blades just work,
and some you have to really fuss with the saw to get a
good result.

John

The way this thread has wandered off topic makes it seem like Jet airplanes
were the original topic! LOL

On 3/1/15 6:24 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Electric Comet wrote in
news:md04kf$i7f$1 @dont-email.me:

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:18:40 -0600 Leon
wrote:

results. I only need roughly close to get good results. For
instance

roughly close doesn't make sense it's either adjusted or no I'll
agree some saws are hard to keep adjusted and some aren't

I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on a
well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension just so, the
blade cuts straight as long as the tension is close. You don't have
to set the guides precisely, the blade tracks straight as long as
they're close.

Having said that, I'm of the impression that the blade makes a lot
more difference than the saw - some blades just work, and some you
have to really fuss with the saw to get a good result.

John


That's been my experience.
If you spend the time to make sure your wheels are coplaner, the blade
is centered on the wheels, and you get the tension in range, the guides
are almost not even needed.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:24:03 +0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:


I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension

any saw has to be adjusted
there's no saw where you put the blade on and do nothing else
they require something

some take more adjustment
some need readjustment from time to time
some don't

pretty simple

On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:26:16 -0500
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

The way this thread has wandered off topic


the topic's about jet tool's inferior designs and how they've not
earned any more money from me due those inferior designs


wandering off topic's not possible it's only possible
for the reader to not follow the topic
I can understand how you might have gotten confused

usenet is about allowing topics to go fractal and not about
staying on topic

any topic that comes up is usually related to the main one
even in miniscule ways sometimes



























..

On 3/1/2015 6:24 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Electric Comet wrote in news:md04kf$i7f$1
@dont-email.me:

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:18:40 -0600
Leon wrote:

results. I only need roughly close to get good results. For instance

roughly close doesn't make sense it's either adjusted or no
I'll agree some saws are hard to keep adjusted and some aren't

I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension
just so, the blade cuts straight as long as the tension is
close. You don't have to set the guides precisely, the
blade tracks straight as long as they're close.

Having said that, I'm of the impression that the blade makes
a lot more difference than the saw - some blades just work,
and some you have to really fuss with the saw to get a
good result.

John

Thank you John that is basically what I was trying to say. ;~)
The fussier the saw the pickier the adjustment has to be.

And as for the blades though I found that any blade "so far" works well
on the Laguna and not so much on a lesser saw. And that probably has to
do with what you eloquently explained as adjustments not having to be
just so.

On 3/1/2015 7:12 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:24:03 +0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:


I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension

any saw has to be adjusted
there's no saw where you put the blade on and do nothing else
they require something

some take more adjustment
some need readjustment from time to time
some don't

pretty simple

Well actually the MiniMax rep swapped blades on the MM16, the demo saw
that had no guides at all. All he had to do was retention the blade
after changing it, and that was a single adjustment before he restarted
the saw. Not totally unlike changing out a blade on a TS. Until you
have actually worked with a saw of this caliber it is hard to understand
how well they work.
Sure you have to tension the blade but I use the built in gauge and that
is good enough and you do have to adjust the guides to the width of the
blade but tracking and blade tension is simply not a factor in the saw
performing well.
And while this is an adjustment it is a simple adjustment that requires
no test cuts or tweaking.

On 3/1/2015 3:56 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/1/2015 10:54 AM, Leon wrote:

There are basically 3 length boxes. 8', 6' and more recently the 4.5~5'
boxes found on the larger full 4 door models. My Tundra is 4 door but
not the larger full 4 door and it has the 6' bed. While my truck has
plenty of room in the back seat, ask Swingman, it does not have as much
room as the full sized 4 door version. Those, at least the one on the
Tundra have back seats that move forward and backward like the front
seats and let you stretch your legs out.

Some guys have all the luck. They get the truck, the saw(s), and the cook.


And some have the first two and the musician! ;~)

On 3/1/2015 4:13 PM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in :

Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
every 30K)

That tells you either the head wasn't flat or the block surface
wasn't flat. Probably the head. If it was only one failure it
might be the head bolts weren't torqued right, but repeated
failure says the gasket didn't have a good sealing surface.

John



Repeated head blown head gaskets can also indicate a poor design. Some
where along the line the head warps and when the new head does the same
the design is crap. As was the case with the Chevrolet Vega's.

"Electric Comet" wrote in message ...

On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:26:16 -0500
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

The way this thread has wandered off topic

wandering off topic's not possible it's only possible
for the reader to not follow the topic
I can understand how you might have gotten confused

I've been around here for 25+ years... threads under this topic have
definitely drifted way off topic into the world of transportation vehicles,
engines, etc...

RE Jet tools, as I posted previously, I've got a bunch of them and they all
have performed well. I do however recognize maintenance and consumable items
on tools and I know when I personally screwed something up... the tools
themselves have proven reliable, have met my performance expectations and
have let me perform well... I've got a box full of woodworking ribbons
including a "best of show" to show for it.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

Thank you John that is basically what I was trying to say. ;~)
The fussier the saw the pickier the adjustment has to be.

I don't know what others have experienced but my 18" Jet is not fussy...
with some minor tweaking of the tracking when installing a new blade the
drift is zero. It's been a pleasure to work with. If I ever get to it I
can mill bolts and short logs on my 36" 5 HP Crescent... the funny thing is
I haven't really needed that saw to date but it's cool! LOL

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 22:26:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/1/2015 4:13 PM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in :

Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
every 30K)

That tells you either the head wasn't flat or the block surface
wasn't flat. Probably the head. If it was only one failure it
might be the head bolts weren't torqued right, but repeated
failure says the gasket didn't have a good sealing surface.

John



Repeated head blown head gaskets can also indicate a poor design. Some
where along the line the head warps and when the new head does the same
the design is crap. As was the case with the Chevrolet Vega's.

Not sure what Chrysler's problem was but it was common on the 2.3L(?)
fourbanger. It was a design issue.

On 3/2/2015 7:10 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 22:26:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/1/2015 4:13 PM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in :

Mine were absolute junk. The engines were junk (one blew a head gasket
every 30K)

That tells you either the head wasn't flat or the block surface
wasn't flat. Probably the head. If it was only one failure it
might be the head bolts weren't torqued right, but repeated
failure says the gasket didn't have a good sealing surface.

John



Repeated head blown head gaskets can also indicate a poor design. Some
where along the line the head warps and when the new head does the same
the design is crap. As was the case with the Chevrolet Vega's.

Not sure what Chrysler's problem was but it was common on the 2.3L(?)
fourbanger. It was a design issue.

Yup if it is a repeated problem it is an inherent flaw.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Price point has become more important than dependability. Anyone
working in a manufacturing world had seen this for years now.

Who do you blame? All of us. We talk how much we want quality, but
price become the deciding factor. We go to Woodcraft, fondle the
tool,
then order it from Amazon because it is $5 cheaper there. Just look
at
how well Harbor Freight is doing.
-------------------------------------------------
wrote:

Right there with you, Ed. Couldn't agree more. When I started in the
trades back in the early 70s, tools were good enough to rebuild.
Using them all day, we simply wore out hand power tools and their
parts. So we put in triggers, bearing, brushes, etc., as a regular
part of the tool owning experience.
snip
----------------------------------------------------
During the early '60s, I worked on devices that got mounted on
the engines of military vehicles.

The performance specification was straight forward.

500 hours of performanc life with ZERO, ZIP failures.

If the device survived 500.001 hours and then died, that
was acceptable.

The reason the performance spec was written as stated was
simple.

Hit the beach with 100 new trucks and the enemy destroys
10-20 of them in the first 10 hours of battle, and renders another
50 of them inoperable without a rebuild facility to make repairs
which is highly unlikely on the battlefield.

Turns out the lowest cost to the military is to have new spare
devices available to be used when the opportunity presents itself.

It's a case starting with a 100% operating device and using it until
it fails, then scrap the device and start with another new device.

No attempt is made to rebuild what is basically a throw away item.

Another example of a throw away device is the printed circuit board
populated with poorest tolerance components as possible except for
a single resistor and a capacitor which are the tightest tolerance
devices available.

The populated boards are then tested to determine the resistor
and capacitor values to classify the board assembly as a tight
tolerance device.

From a manufacting point of view, it's the best of all worlds.

Low cost, wide tolerance components are used for at least 90%
of the of the devices while high cost, tight tolerance devices
allow a low cost, high performance boards to be delivered to
the market.

There is no way to repair a board like this in the field which is
why a replacement board assembly is routinely sold for about
60% of a new device along with the old board ass'y.

I'm afraid the days of being able to make repairs, even simple
ones to rebuild a tool in the field are quickly becoming history
from another era.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Price point has become more important than dependability. Anyone
working in a manufacturing world had seen this for years now.

Who do you blame? All of us. We talk how much we want quality, but
price become the deciding factor. We go to Woodcraft, fondle the
tool,
then order it from Amazon because it is $5 cheaper there. Just look
at
how well Harbor Freight is doing.

The only point I disagree with is your characterization of the $5 savings
Ed. We both know that the price differential has been far greater than
that. In fact - nobody ever made a decision based on a $5 price point.


----------------------------------------------------
During the early '60s, I worked on devices that got mounted on
the engines of military vehicles.

The performance specification was straight forward.

500 hours of performanc life with ZERO, ZIP failures.

Ok - so those same kind of specs exist today and they are met today. Your
point?


Another example of a throw away device is the printed circuit board
populated with poorest tolerance components as possible except for
a single resistor and a capacitor which are the tightest tolerance
devices available.

I'm sure you will cite some obscure reference but I've been in this industry
for too many years to listen to someone like you spout crap like this. This
is just not how engineering and manufacturing is done. Nice story line but
it really just not play in reality. To listen to stuff like this is to
believe that everything we buy or that is manufactured is done so to fail in
the shortest possible time. We have all experienced too many long lived
products to buy into that crap. Even at low price points.

This group can just get too carried away with this kind of rhetoric that is
simply unproven.



The populated boards are then tested to determine the resistor
and capacitor values to classify the board assembly as a tight
tolerance device.

From a manufacting point of view, it's the best of all worlds.

Low cost, wide tolerance components are used for at least 90%
of the of the devices while high cost, tight tolerance devices
allow a low cost, high performance boards to be delivered to
the market.

Bull.



I'm afraid the days of being able to make repairs, even simple
ones to rebuild a tool in the field are quickly becoming history
from another era.


I'm afraid there are too many tall tales like this one about what the good
old days were and what evolved over time.

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 10:33:30 -0500
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

I've been around here for 25+ years... threads under this topic have
definitely drifted way off topic into the world of transportation

If you read them you drifted off on to them. Not the other way round
theres a difference


RE Jet tools, as I posted previously, I've got a bunch of them and
they all have performed well. I do however recognize maintenance and

Glad to hear it
I won't be spending any more $$ on Jet ever

I went through this process over a decade ago, trying to decide between
the MiniMax (MM16) and Laguna.
At the time, the MM was the clear winner, better saw and better customer
service. The Laguna saws at the time were playing catchup, less
capacity, power, and poorer table finish.

I luv my MM! The only changes I made were to dump the Euro guides after
they began seizing and replace then with a used set of Carter bearing
guides.
Being an import, I spent many hours removing the cosmoline, but this
gave me the time to tweak every major adjustment and set up the dust
collection hardware.

These saws are a step up from the typical Delta/Jet/Powermatic. Heavy
cast iron wheels, flat (not crowned) tires, more resawing depth, can
tension over 1" blades easily, rock solid steel guide post, 3.5 HP
motor, etc. Key to me is the ability to align and then lock in all the
critical adjustments, Do it right once and then forget about it.

If I was to purchase today, the Laguna would take the top spot. They
have really come far with fixing the quality issues whereas MiniMax has
stagnated.

I'd love to replace my Carters with the Laguna ceramics. The Carters are
fussy to set up and the bearings load up with gunk which needs to be
constantly cleaned out. Don't read me wrong, the Carters do an excellent
job when things are clean, it is just my opinion that bandsaw guides
really should be scrapers instead of rollers (a roller thrust bearing is
perfect IMO).

My MM came with a generic 1" blade that many believed to be an "Olsen"
brand. That blade died after resawing maybe 30 feet of 10" white oak. I
bought several timber wolf blades as replacements and they also
disappointed me with short lives. I then went with a Highland Hardware
resaw king and it's been heaven ever since.

Since my purchase, both MM and Laguna have begun selling more 'entry'
level models and the Delta/Jet/Powermatic group has begun selling more
upscale models, nicely filling the gap between the hobbyist and
industrial equipment markets.

-BR





On 3/1/15, 8:57 AM, Leon wrote:

Yeah! the MiniMax that I mentioned above is every bit as robust as
the Italian Lagunas. When I visited the showroom the rep was
building a nice piece of furniture and only using a band saw to make
all of the cuts. He also indicated that a good BS needs no
guides... He demoed cutting several pieces of scrap with the guides
removed. This fact is one of the reasons I went the extra mile in
expense to get a good HD BS. If you don't need guides you know that
the saw is sound enough to hold its settings and not have to be
tweaked regularly.

makes sense but it also means a lot of engineering has to go into
the wheels and axles, hence the higher price but that's ok

Yeah all of that stuff is incredibly robust. The wheels are solid iron
and spin effortlessly and for quite a when unloaded.



i do like to learn about what's out there and the state of the art
but I will make do with what i have and i enjoy improvising
improvising provides some challenges and sometimes leads to accidental
insights that I'd have missed otherwise

Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not the
HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe but it
seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the Italian
built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.







--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 3/1/15, 9:21 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/1/2015 7:12 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:24:03 +0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:


I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on
a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension

any saw has to be adjusted
there's no saw where you put the blade on and do nothing else
they require something

some take more adjustment
some need readjustment from time to time
some don't

pretty simple

Well actually the MiniMax rep swapped blades on the MM16, the demo saw
that had no guides at all. All he had to do was retention the blade
after changing it, and that was a single adjustment before he restarted
the saw. Not totally unlike changing out a blade on a TS. Until you
have actually worked with a saw of this caliber it is hard to understand
how well they work.

Agreed. I haven't touched the tracking adjustment on my MM16 since I
first got it set correctly. After changing blades I just re-tension and
set the guides (this is going between a 3/8" and 1").


Sure you have to tension the blade but I use the built in gauge and that
is good enough and you do have to adjust the guides to the width of the
blade but tracking and blade tension is simply not a factor in the saw
performing well.
And while this is an adjustment it is a simple adjustment that requires
no test cuts or tweaking.


All these tension gauges are simple spring compression meters, generally
not very accurate. I set up my blades originally by measuring the blade
stretch to calculate the proper tension. Once set, I made a new index
mark on the saws tension gauge and just align to the mark when
adjusting. On these saws the exact tension doesn't seem to be very
critical, just ball-park it.

-BR



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 08:27:05 -0700
Brewster wrote:

If I was to purchase today, the Laguna would take the top spot. They
have really come far with fixing the quality issues whereas MiniMax
has stagnated.

You mean they haven't made any further improvements on the design?
Or no new models or something else?

My MM came with a generic 1" blade that many believed to be an
"Olsen" brand. That blade died after resawing maybe 30 feet of 10"

I think I have a couple of Olson blades.

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:57:53 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was
looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.

Never had heard of felder or hammer
they are together now and the products look similar


Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not

Laguna sells direct too
A while ago I recall seeing laguna bandsaws on amazon but don't recall
who the seller was. Might have been rockler

the HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe
but it seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the
Italian built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.

That's a lot of bandsaw

Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:57:53 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was
looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.

Never had heard of felder or hammer
they are together now and the products look similar

Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I think
the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late 70's or
early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop Fox and or
some of Jet andPowermatic products.






Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not

Laguna sells direct too
A while ago I recall seeing laguna bandsaws on amazon but don't recall
who the seller was. Might have been rockler

When I bought about 8 years ago you still had to buy direct from Laguna.
I would say that if you buy direct you might get a few more perks and or
blades thrown in. Also if you get on Laguna's email list they will let
you know when tools go on sale or have a demo sale.





the HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe
but it seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the
Italian built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.

That's a lot of bandsaw

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 12:08:07 -0700, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:57:53 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was
looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.

Never had heard of felder or hammer
they are together now and the products look similar


Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not

Laguna sells direct too
A while ago I recall seeing laguna bandsaws on amazon but don't recall
who the seller was. Might have been rockler

Laguna sells direct through Amazon. I've been looking. ;-)

the HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe
but it seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the
Italian built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.

That's a lot of bandsaw

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:03:10 -0500
Leon wrote:

Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I
think the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late
70's or early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop
Fox and or some of Jet andPowermatic products.

how hard was/is felder and hammer stuff marketed
some companies get out there better than others
I guess I'm a marketing victim

the felder hammer stuff looks well made but marketing/distribution
has to get better to get in front of people


When I bought about 8 years ago you still had to buy direct from
Laguna. I would say that if you buy direct you might get a few more
perks and or blades thrown in. Also if you get on Laguna's email
list they will let you know when tools go on sale or have a demo
sale.

good to know
am on the list but not ready to buy

I wonder how their moving sale went?

"Leon" wrote in message
...

Electric Comet wrote:

Never had heard of felder or hammer
they are together now and the products look similar

Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I think
the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late 70's or
early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop Fox and or
some of Jet andPowermatic products.

Much of the Felder and Hammer stuff I've seen was geared more towards
commercial shops... European designs, big stuff, relatively expensive. Not
that a well heeled hobbyist with lots of space wouldn't be interested... ;~)
I like their sliding table saws, the big jointer/planners, and shapers. If I
hit a big lottery of some sort I could see having a big shop full of the
stuff.... ;~)

The first time I saw Felder tools in person Frank Klausz was manning the
booth and playing with a jointer/planner...

John

On 3/10/2015 10:50 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:03:10 -0500
Leon wrote:

Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I
think the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late
70's or early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop
Fox and or some of Jet andPowermatic products.

how hard was/is felder and hammer stuff marketed
some companies get out there better than others
I guess I'm a marketing victim

In the older days they were at most the woodworking shows. Kiti,
Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer... etc

Later on they dropped off of the Houston shows but became more prominent
in the commercial trades magazines and regular ww magazines. Laguna is
not new but relative new compared to most of the brands that I have
mentioned. The Owner of Laguna Is from the northern Europe area and
came to live in California. He loved surfing at Laguna beach and
apparently named the company accordingly. He wanted to introduce
European machines to the USA lower end consumers, not just at comercial
applications.


the felder hammer stuff looks well made but marketing/distribution
has to get better to get in front of people

Well they probably would do better if they offered lowered quality in
different categories. Laguna was not really well known to the general
public until they started offering through retailers and offering Asian
versions.





When I bought about 8 years ago you still had to buy direct from
Laguna. I would say that if you buy direct you might get a few more
perks and or blades thrown in. Also if you get on Laguna's email
list they will let you know when tools go on sale or have a demo
sale.

good to know
am on the list but not ready to buy

I wonder how their moving sale went?

On 3/10/2015 11:32 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...

Electric Comet wrote:

Never had heard of felder or hammer
they are together now and the products look similar

Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I think
the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late 70's or
early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop Fox and or
some of Jet andPowermatic products.

Much of the Felder and Hammer stuff I've seen was geared more towards
commercial shops... European designs, big stuff, relatively expensive.
Not that a well heeled hobbyist with lots of space wouldn't be
interested... ;~) I like their sliding table saws, the big
jointer/planners, and shapers. If I hit a big lottery of some sort I
could see having a big shop full of the stuff.... ;~)

The first time I saw Felder tools in person Frank Klausz was manning the
booth and playing with a jointer/planner...

John


It is a real treat to see the innovation and quality of the Euro
machines. But they are geared to the committed and commercial
applications. I was real close to going with the Laguna TSS with
scoring blade. My Jet cabinet saw was only 13 years old but my wife
indicated that she would not mind me upgrading to the Industrial SawStop
after watching me perform an operation that made her a bit concerned.
The Laguna would have offered a lot of extra perks but would have been
about $1000 more expensive equally equipped. In the end the safety of
the SawStop trumped the Laguna along with a familiar American style
operational set up.

On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:44:49 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


In the older days they were at most the woodworking shows. Kiti,
Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer... etc

I went to exactly 1 woodworking show and subscribed to exactly 0
woodworking magazines
the show was ok, a guy was scared and turning a 5 foot bowl
maybe from the club local to the venue and picked the short straw
or better yet came up with the idea and volunteered simultaneously

and now you mention kiti another I haven't heard of.



Later on they dropped off of the Houston shows but became more
prominent in the commercial trades magazines and regular ww
magazines. Laguna is not new but relative new compared to most of

I make choices quickly some times and not others. I think jet
get out there in front of people


the brands that I have mentioned. The Owner of Laguna Is from the
northern Europe area and came to live in California. He loved
surfing at Laguna beach and apparently named the company
accordingly. He wanted to introduce European machines to the USA
lower end consumers, not just at comercial applications.

Seems to have been a good idea.


Well they probably would do better if they offered lowered quality in
different categories. Laguna was not really well known to the
general public until they started offering through retailers and
offering Asian versions.

laguna has some high-end CNC stuff and I don't even remember how I
heard about laguna, may have been amazon

"Leon" wrote in message
...

It is a real treat to see the innovation and quality of the Euro machines.
But they are geared to the committed and commercial applications. I was
real close to going with the Laguna TSS with scoring blade. My Jet cabinet
saw was only 13 years old but my wife indicated that she would not mind me
upgrading to the Industrial SawStop after watching me perform an operation
that made her a bit concerned. The Laguna would have offered a lot of extra
perks but would have been about $1000 more expensive equally equipped. In
the end the safety of the SawStop trumped the Laguna along with a familiar
American style operational set up.

If I move to a more southern state I may sell of the stuff I have, a Jet
cabinet saw for one, and buy all new stuff... That is a thought I've had for
the the past couple of years and those thoughts also include going Euro... I
like things like the riving knives and sliding tables, the wide
jointer/planer combo machines, Euro style bandsaws...

My needs have changed over time and having a large jointer and a stationary
thickness planer doesn't make as much sense as it once did. This as I'm no
longer trying to joint boards 12'+ long for architectural purposes that led
me to move up to the big jointer in the first place. Now, having a wide
jointer combined with an equal sized planer makes sense for furniture type
projects.

On 3/10/2015 8:13 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:44:49 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


In the older days they were at most the woodworking shows. Kiti,
Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer... etc

I went to exactly 1 woodworking show and subscribed to exactly 0
woodworking magazines
the show was ok, a guy was scared and turning a 5 foot bowl
maybe from the club local to the venue and picked the short straw
or better yet came up with the idea and volunteered simultaneously

Well there you have it. ;~) You typically don't see the upper end
commercial grade machines in the typical ww store, there you mostly see
consumer grade.


and now you mention kiti another I haven't heard of.

That one is scarce. I don't recall seeing that one in the last 30 or so
years.

FWIW I haven't seen any of the heavy duty machines at the Houston WW
shows in years. "The WoodWorking Shows" tour has sucked for the past
5~6 years. They ****ed off most of the vendors when they moved from the
centrally located Houston location, near the Astrodome, to the out
laying small towns of Katy and Conroe. I have probably gone to my last
show unless they go back to Houston. I swear the last show was held in
a love stock shelter. 10 Plus years ago every brand you could think of
was well represented.



Later on they dropped off of the Houston shows but became more
prominent in the commercial trades magazines and regular ww
magazines. Laguna is not new but relative new compared to most of

I make choices quickly some times and not others. I think jet
get out there in front of people


the brands that I have mentioned. The Owner of Laguna Is from the
northern Europe area and came to live in California. He loved
surfing at Laguna beach and apparently named the company
accordingly. He wanted to introduce European machines to the USA
lower end consumers, not just at comercial applications.

Seems to have been a good idea.


Well they probably would do better if they offered lowered quality in
different categories. Laguna was not really well known to the
general public until they started offering through retailers and
offering Asian versions.

laguna has some high-end CNC stuff and I don't even remember how I
heard about laguna, may have been amazon

Laguna absolutely has high end stuff. On their web site you look under
the Industrial tab for the machines that are going to out last you.
Under the Dealer Exclusive tab there are decent tools but on par with
all the brands manufactured in Asia. Dealer exclusive is more geared
towards the first time buyer of a particular type machine. Industrial
is geared toward those that are tired of replacing machines.

On 3/10/2015 9:23 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...

It is a real treat to see the innovation and quality of the Euro
machines. But they are geared to the committed and commercial
applications. I was real close to going with the Laguna TSS with
scoring blade. My Jet cabinet saw was only 13 years old but my wife
indicated that she would not mind me upgrading to the Industrial
SawStop after watching me perform an operation that made her a bit
concerned. The Laguna would have offered a lot of extra perks but
would have been about $1000 more expensive equally equipped. In the
end the safety of the SawStop trumped the Laguna along with a familiar
American style operational set up.

If I move to a more southern state I may sell of the stuff I have, a Jet
cabinet saw for one, and buy all new stuff... That is a thought I've had
for the the past couple of years and those thoughts also include going
Euro... I like things like the riving knives and sliding tables, the
wide jointer/planer combo machines, Euro style bandsaws...

FWIW most all the new table saws now have riving knives. The one on my
SawStop is very well thought out. Remove the insert, lift the riving
knife/guard lock lever and lift out. Some brands require tools and that
would be a royal PIA. Also Sawstop has recently introduced a sliding
table that fits most everything that they make IIRC.
BUT I still admire the Laguna TS and TSS series table saws. They are
beasts. My top end SawStop is 700lbs but the Laguna TS is 970lbs.
And I will never have to replace my Laguna BS.



My needs have changed over time and having a large jointer and a
stationary thickness planer doesn't make as much sense as it once did.
This as I'm no longer trying to joint boards 12'+ long for architectural
purposes that led me to move up to the big jointer in the first place.
Now, having a wide jointer combined with an equal sized planer makes
sense for furniture type projects.

I sell the vast majority of the work that I do and have also steered
away from using a joiner, I sold mine that I seldom used a few years
ago. I pretty much buy S4S lumber now as its price, compared to S2S, is
not that much more considering the time savings and knowing exactly how
much I can expect to get out of a standard sized board. If I buy for me
I will consider S2S and planing it down to 3/4.

I do have a 22/44 drum sander that I use a lot. A lot of my furniture
uses 1/4" thick wood for trim. I resaw 3/4" stock on the BS and then
bring to final thickness with the sander. I am a little leery about
using a 15" stationary planer for taking stock down to that thickness
given it has rollers on the bed.

On 3/9/15, 1:03 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 08:27:05 -0700
Brewster wrote:

If I was to purchase today, the Laguna would take the top spot. They
have really come far with fixing the quality issues whereas MiniMax
has stagnated.

You mean they haven't made any further improvements on the design?
Or no new models or something else?

They haven't been as fast to adopt refinements. Mini Max has stayed with
the industrial market, only making one (if I recall correctly) model
that has pushed into the "pro-sumer" market. Laguna has gone full steam
into that market and competition has force them to innovate.
Don't read me wrong, MM still makes great stuff, but for my needs (the
bottom end of the industrial market), The Lagunas now have an edge with
accessories and features.
I needed a saw with at least 16" wheels, the ability for big resaw
capacity, and ability to tension wide blades. At the time, MM was one of
the few producing an affordable saw, everything at lower price points
was still being made with the cast iron columns vs, the MM steel box
beams. It wasn't long after that other mfgs started to make steel box
beam saws (Jet comes to mind). Evolution in action. I actually wish I
had bought the 18" since the 16" was a bit small to properly run the
carbide blades without eventual fatigue cracking of the blade metal (the
blades were thicker and the smaller radius of the wheels became a
factor. I believe newer carbide blades are now available with thinner
blade stock so I am probably ok running one on a 16", but my needs have
changed a bit and the standard resaw blades work perfectly (without
having to pay the exorbitant prices for carbide)

Check out the web sites. The MM still looks much like mine, after more
than a decade. Improvements are a better table tilt (mine is rock solid,
but very user unfriendly), and improved guides. Power and capacity are
also a bit better. Laguna has many more options available.

Given more time and demand, I'm sure MM will re-design their stuff and
be on top again. One big draw to MM at the time was superb customer
service. The initial order and delivery was flawless. Based on reports I
read, that has slipped a bit (although I have never had anything break
where I required four star service). Laguna had spotty service at the
time I ordered and when I couldn't get basic questions answered, I
bought the MM and never looked back.

The big shocker to me however is the prices (more than 2x what I paid)

-BR



My MM came with a generic 1" blade that many believed to be an
"Olsen" brand. That blade died after resawing maybe 30 feet of 10"

I think I have a couple of Olson blades.





















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On 3/10/15, 9:50 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:03:10 -0500
Leon wrote:

Jeez, Are you relatively new to wood working equipment? :-). I
think the first time I heard of those two brands was back in the late
70's or early 80's. I think they are similar like Grizzly and Shop
Fox and or some of Jet andPowermatic products.

how hard was/is felder and hammer stuff marketed
some companies get out there better than others
I guess I'm a marketing victim

the felder hammer stuff looks well made but marketing/distribution
has to get better to get in front of people

As with MM/Laguna at the time, they were industrial machines and were
sold to industry. Finding them was pretty much word of mouth. Now that
they have entered the fray of the lower end markets, advertising is much
more critical.

-BR




When I bought about 8 years ago you still had to buy direct from
Laguna. I would say that if you buy direct you might get a few more
perks and or blades thrown in. Also if you get on Laguna's email
list they will let you know when tools go on sale or have a demo
sale.

good to know
am on the list but not ready to buy

I wonder how their moving sale went?



















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