a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment

On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment


I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.
Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
competitive brand.

"Electric Comet" wrote in message ...

all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

I've owned 8 Jet stationary tools and still have 5 of them... 3 were
upgraded to larger machines. They've all been good, serviceable, and
reliable machines. The only real problem I had was the magnetic switch on
the cabinet saw failed after about 8 years--cleaning it didn't help. The
other things were all consumables or maintenance items (e.g., blades,
bandsaw tire). I'd buy Jet again.

John

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment


I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.

I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
though.

Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
competitive brand.

On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment


I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.

I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
though.

I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
had a broken trunnion. That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.
Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.

And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
too but still north of $3K.

Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.





Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
competitive brand.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment


I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.

I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
though.

I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
had a broken trunnion.

I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
been great (wish I could play with it).

That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.

The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
$3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
represent income, rather outgo.

When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
out about that time and I bought it instead.

Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.

And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
too but still north of $3K.

Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
Unisaws under $1000?

Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.

Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)

On 2/24/2015 9:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment


I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.

I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
though.

I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
had a broken trunnion.

I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
been great (wish I could play with it).

That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.

The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
$3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
represent income, rather outgo.

When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
out about that time and I bought it instead.

I looked closely at the Powermatic VS but was really turned off by the
loud noises coming from the transmission. Way too noisily for an
expensive piece of equipment.




Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.

And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
too but still north of $3K.

Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
Unisaws under $1000?

No, $1000. less that they were introduced at. You can get them now in
the $2500~$2700 range.



Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.

Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)

I hear you, selling my work helps justify the expense.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
tools that I have purchased.

I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon


Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
competitive brand.

this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
engineering which includes bad choices for materials

jet saw short-term sales by lowering quality but long term they
now will see diminished customer loyalty and lower sales

mutually assured disappointment

Electric Comet wrote in news:mcl041$dn4$1
@dont-email.me:

this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
engineering which includes bad choices for materials

As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
"bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
when management forces the engineers to design to a
predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
unrealistic goal.

John

On 2/25/2015 1:21 PM, John McCoy wrote:

As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
"bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
when management forces the engineers to design to a
predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
unrealistic goal.

John


Price point has become more important than dependability. Anyone
working in a manufacturing world had seen this for years now.

A major appliance manufacturer called in all of its suppliers. They had
their unit on display as well as a competing unit from Korea. We were
told to reduce the price by 25% or the product would not exist any
longer. Everyone did what they had to do to meet the competition, but
after a few years, China came along and the plant closed down anyway.

Who do you blame? All of us. We talk how much we want quality, but
price become the deciding factor. We go to Woodcraft, fondle the tool,
then order it from Amazon because it is $5 cheaper there. Just look at
how well Harbor Freight is doing.

On 2/25/2015 11:13 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
tools that I have purchased.

I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon

FWIW about 8 years ago I bought a Laguna LT16HD. I bought a 18" Rikon
to replace a small Craftsman. I kept the Rikon about a week and
returned it. It more closely performed like the Craftsman compared to
the Laguna. I love the Laguna, it stays set and very little tweaking
needs to be done with blade size changes. And it tracks perfectly.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:24:48 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

FWIW about 8 years ago I bought a Laguna LT16HD. I bought a 18"
Rikon to replace a small Craftsman. I kept the Rikon about a week
and returned it. It more closely performed like the Craftsman
compared to the Laguna. I love the Laguna, it stays set and very
little tweaking needs to be done with blade size changes. And it
tracks perfectly.

the videos I saw it looked like you could make veneer on the laguna

I never heard of laguna when I bought jet stuff

my impression of laguna is that they don't just copy things from other
manufacturers they rethink the design and it seems to be a succesful
strategy

btw lagauna are moving and having a huge sale that I can't participate
in but others might be able to if in So. Calif.

"Electric Comet" wrote in message ...
for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


What model lathe is that? I've been thinking about getting one of their
1221VS benchtop lathes, and I'm hoping that's not the model you're
complaining about.

Tom

On 2/25/2015 5:07 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

I never heard of laguna when I bought jet stuff

my impression of laguna is that they don't just copy things from other
manufacturers they rethink the design and it seems to be a succesful
strategy

Well worth it if you have a few extra pennies in your pocket. I'm happy
with my Jet bandsaw that was affordable when I bought it, but, yes, I'd
go for the Laguna today.

My Jet tools have worked well and are good value, but you can step up
for a few bucks more if you have it.

On 2/25/2015 4:07 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:24:48 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

FWIW about 8 years ago I bought a Laguna LT16HD. I bought a 18"
Rikon to replace a small Craftsman. I kept the Rikon about a week
and returned it. It more closely performed like the Craftsman
compared to the Laguna. I love the Laguna, it stays set and very
little tweaking needs to be done with blade size changes. And it
tracks perfectly.

the videos I saw it looked like you could make veneer on the laguna
Absolutely, with the right blade. I also have the Laguna ResawKing
blade. I have cut red oak veneer so thin that you can see through the
pores. A worthless veneer but cool to be able to do that.


I never heard of laguna when I bought jet stuff

Not new by any stretch, I can remember seeing Laguna way back when.
Probably 30+ years



my impression of laguna is that they don't just copy things from other
manufacturers they rethink the design and it seems to be a succesful
strategy

Well actually they have other manufacturers build their equipment and
they enhance it. The upper end BS's are Italian. Most of the good stuff
is European. Some of the Platinum series is Taiwan.




btw lagauna are moving and having a huge sale that I can't participate
in but others might be able to if in So. Calif.


Yes Laguna are moving. '~)

On 2/25/2015 7:35 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/25/2015 4:07 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:24:48 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

FWIW about 8 years ago I bought a Laguna LT16HD. I bought a 18"
Rikon to replace a small Craftsman. I kept the Rikon about a week
and returned it. It more closely performed like the Craftsman
compared to the Laguna. I love the Laguna, it stays set and very
little tweaking needs to be done with blade size changes. And it
tracks perfectly.

the videos I saw it looked like you could make veneer on the laguna
Absolutely, with the right blade. I also have the Laguna ResawKing
blade. I have cut red oak veneer so thin that you can see through the
pores. A worthless veneer but cool to be able to do that.


I never heard of laguna when I bought jet stuff

Not new by any stretch, I can remember seeing Laguna way back when.
Probably 30+ years



my impression of laguna is that they don't just copy things from other
manufacturers they rethink the design and it seems to be a succesful
strategy

Well actually they have other manufacturers build their equipment and
they enhance it. The upper end BS's are Italian. Most of the good stuff
is European. Some of the Platinum series is Taiwan.




btw lagauna are moving and having a huge sale that I can't participate
in but others might be able to if in So. Calif.


Yes Laguna are moving. '~)



FWIW the Laguna BS 10 point ceramic guides sold me, they are great.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 22:07:18 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 9:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment


I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.

I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
though.

I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
had a broken trunnion.

I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
been great (wish I could play with it).

That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.

The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
$3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
represent income, rather outgo.

When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
out about that time and I bought it instead.

I looked closely at the Powermatic VS but was really turned off by the
loud noises coming from the transmission. Way too noisily for an
expensive piece of equipment.

I didn't notice that. I guess it's a good thing I didn't go that way.
I really like the Delta, though changing speeds is sort of a pain
(three pulleys).

Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.

And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
too but still north of $3K.

Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
Unisaws under $1000?

No, $1000. less that they were introduced at. You can get them now in
the $2500~$2700 range.


Ah, that makes more sense. They were at least that much overpriced
when they came out.



Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.

Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)

I hear you, selling my work helps justify the expense.

WW is never going to be more than a hobby for me. It keeps me out of
the bars. ;-)

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:13:31 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
tools that I have purchased.

I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon

I'm still trying to decide between the Laguna 14SUV and a Rikon
10-351. It won't be soon, though.


Anyway things wear out and a few dollars for a replacement or better
replacement part seems to be better than a premium price for a
competitive brand.

this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
engineering which includes bad choices for materials

jet saw short-term sales by lowering quality but long term they
now will see diminished customer loyalty and lower sales

mutually assured disappointment

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 18:21:06 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Electric Comet wrote in news:mcl041$dn4$1
:

this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
engineering which includes bad choices for materials

As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
"bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
when management forces the engineers to design to a
predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
unrealistic goal.

As an engineer, I'll have to disagree. Engineering is *all* about
cost. It's easy to build a bridge that will stand. It's really hard
to design one that will barely stand. The goals might be unrealistic
or perhaps the engineers aren't quite smart enough. ;-)

On 2/25/2015 12:21 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Electric Comet wrote in news:mcl041$dn4$1
@dont-email.me:

this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
engineering which includes bad choices for materials

As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
"bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
when management forces the engineers to design to a
predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
unrealistic goal.

John

Just like the cantilever locking device made out of plastic and
opens / locks the back side door on my 3 door S10. The door is held
in by force and the force drives the plastic to break. Wish I had a
metal version. Might have to make one.

I suspect it was done to limit weight like the crappy 5mph bumpers
that is used on many cars to limit weight.

Martin

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 1:18:13 PM UTC-6, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Price point has become more important than dependability. Anyone
working in a manufacturing world had seen this for years now.

Who do you blame? All of us. We talk how much we want quality, but
price become the deciding factor. We go to Woodcraft, fondle the tool,
then order it from Amazon because it is $5 cheaper there. Just look at
how well Harbor Freight is doing.

Right there with you, Ed. Couldn't agree more. When I started in the trades back in the early 70s, tools were good enough to rebuild. Using them all day, we simply wore out hand power tools and their parts. So we put in triggers, bearing, brushes, etc., as a regular part of the tool owning experience.

Many of the old tool names that were on the tools I used to love were bought by investment groups, not tool makers back in the 80s. The powers that be at those companies only sought to maximize their profits, not caring about the tools, nor understanding their importance to the craftsman, tradesman, or any other end user that valued a good tool. For all those companies cared, they were simply manufacturing widgets, and applied their college eds as they had been taught.

Now, unless it is a stationary tool all tools to me are a balance of tool life to longevity. About ten years ago I took my favorite Milwaukee circular saw in (at that time about 25 years old) for a new cord, bearings and a "tightening up". The bench fee was $65, the bearings were $35, the cord was $18, and the clean and lube was another $25. I was stunned and found that the newest replacement model for that saw was $125 at HD.

I commented to the guy at the counter as I was getting my saw (no repairs....) that I was glad the trigger didn't go out. So just for fun, he looked it up. The "heavy duty" trigger was $49, and still carried the same bench fee ($65) as any process.

So I bought a Makita at HD, and it is a great saw. But now as before, if something breaks or wear out, it will be prohibitive to have it fixed.

Years ago I always bought from our local supply house as they stocked accessories for the tools they sold, some parts, and had someone that could diagnose your problem if a tool "quit working". We haven't had anyone like that years here.

I would gladly pay more for a tool of there was a quality company standing behind it and I got good utility value from the tool. Now they all seem to be varying degrees of just junk to pretty good until you get up in the Festool, Metabo, Lamello, etc., range. I buy the Bosch, Ridgid, DeWalt, etc., and depending on what goes wrong and how long it lasted, probably toss them after they break.

I feel like I am like a lot of folks that are getting the short end of the stick because of consumer habits. I have no more local support for my tools or for parts as Amazon, ebay, etc. put them out of business long before HF came on the scene. At one time, you could save 30% by buying online, so off most went to their computers. I have no selection for better tools as no one can afford to keep a showroom since folks will do as you said, try out a tool, handle and inspect it and then go home and purchase it. I have seen many, many times at the Woodcraft demos where folks go and use the tools they are interested in, then go to Amazon or other places to buy their tool after using one for a few hours at WC.

Folks always brag about the low prices they pay on things, but then if you need any backup or support, many times you find out how little that price differential was actually worth. I would gladly pay more for a quality tool backed by good service.

On the other hand, the black eye isn't all on us consumers. About 3 years ago I bought a Ridgid branded 12v drill package. Two identical drills, a charger, and two batteries for a promotional price. Lifetime warranty on the drills and batteries, one year on the charger. I went through the scrupulous registration process and got the drills registered.

Last Monday I took the drills in as the batteries had died. In about 3 weeks I will need them to drill and mount about 60 hinges and installs new drawer hardware at the house I am working on. The guy at the counter told me he was "the tool guy" and would evaluate them. It could take (he told me) about a month for him to get to their assessment. If he found the batteries to be dead and non revivable, then he would send them to the Ridgid service center, so add in another 10 days for packing, transit, and receiving. So now we are at six weeks.

They told me at the service center that their normal turn around on any tool (unless it needed an extensive rebuild) was about a month. So now good sir, the replacement of two dead batteries (which were determined dead by the tool guy when I brought them in, he was just wanting to do additional testing to "make sure") is at best guess... 2 1/2 to 3 months.

What professional can have a duty tool offline for a quarter of the work year?

Further, I was informed and signed a document at the time I turned the tools over that said that Ridgid/HD has the sole power to determine of the tool was simply worked until the end of its life, abused, broken due to accident, used incorrectly (drilling 2" holes in yellow pine all day with the 12v drill), not stored or taken care of properly, used for a task other than which it was specifically designed to do, or neglected in any way they determine is detrimental to the tool. Any of the aforementioned conditions could and probably would lead to denial of the warranty.

So now what do I do? I don't even know if they are going to honor their warranty... I need the drills in a couple of weeks and probably won't have word by then on what they are going to do.

In reality, I will probably go buy a cheaper drill and use it for the job, then until it breaks. At this point, I see little point in paying any premium for a working class tool. At this point (at least with Ridgid) I feel like I am playing a game with them, one I just might lose. I don't have the time for all that dancing around and I need my drills. With that in mind and at the cost of rebuilding my tools, I almost always look for cheaper alernatives for the job site these days.

Robert

wrote in :

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 18:21:06 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Electric Comet wrote in
news:mcl041$dn4$1 @dont-email.me:

this is nothing to do with parts wearing out, this is about bad
engineering which includes bad choices for materials

As an engineer, I have to comment on this. It's not
"bad engineering". It's "cost engineering", which is
when management forces the engineers to design to a
predetermined cost. Engineers hate it, because it
forces you to design in all sorts of crap to meet an
unrealistic goal.

As an engineer, I'll have to disagree. Engineering is *all* about
cost. It's easy to build a bridge that will stand. It's really hard
to design one that will barely stand. The goals might be unrealistic
or perhaps the engineers aren't quite smart enough. ;-)

You're kind of misreading what I meant.

There's a difference between "come up with the lowest
cost design that meets these specs" and "come up with
a design that doesn't exceed this cost". For the first
one I might come back and say "here it is, and the cost
is $43.17". For the second I might say "here it is,
and to meet the $35 cost requirement we have to relax
this, this, and this specification".

The fun part of engineering is balancing all the specs,
both performance and cost, to get the best result. It's
not fun when the cost is locked in, and you can't trade
off one area for another.

Bridges, fortunately, are not built to a preset price.

John

Martin Eastburn wrote in news:l4xHw.1932473
:

Just like the cantilever locking device made out of plastic and
opens / locks the back side door on my 3 door S10. The door is held
in by force and the force drives the plastic to break. Wish I had a
metal version. Might have to make one.

I suspect it was done to limit weight like the crappy 5mph bumpers
that is used on many cars to limit weight.

The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.

The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
part, if not more.

John

On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
....

The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
part, if not more.

Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
the weight reduction.

--

dpb wrote:
On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
...

The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
part, if not more.

Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
the weight reduction.

I'll throw another thought into the mix. That thought is that a large
number of the plastic parts that have been introduced over the years were
really just as appropriate - or even moreso than the preceeding metal parts.
Not all - but a large number. Forget about the weight thing - I think
that's mostly garbage. But - cheaper plastic parts which hold up just as
well as light weight metal parts, do serve a purpose - plus, they don't
rust. There is this foolish notion that metal is better than plastic, but
in reality it's not. Collision damage more often than not requires the
replacement of the part - regardless of what it's made of. Plastic makes
that part cheaper - or more profitable - could be both. Metal parts did not
make it cheaper to repair or to replace those same parts. It takes a lot of
work to repair metal parts, and in the end, that repair may not be as strong
or as effective as a proper, new part.

I believe there is a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to this whole
topic of "fleet performance". That applies to both the general public and
to real, legitimate engineers who are expert in one area, but are otherwise
not so expert in the overall - they rely on their titles as "engineers" as
if they are expert in all areas.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

dpb wrote:
On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
...

The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
part, if not more.

Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc.
for the weight reduction.

I'll throw another thought into the mix. That thought is that a large
number of the plastic parts that have been introduced over the years
were really just as appropriate - or even moreso than the preceeding
metal parts. Not all - but a large number. Forget about the weight
thing - I think that's mostly garbage. But - cheaper plastic parts
which hold up just as well as light weight metal parts, do serve a
purpose - plus, they don't rust. There is this foolish notion that
metal is better than plastic, but in reality it's not. Collision
damage more often than not requires the replacement of the part -
regardless of what it's made of. Plastic makes that part cheaper - or
more profitable - could be both. Metal parts did not make it cheaper
to repair or to replace those same parts. It takes a lot of work to
repair metal parts, and in the end, that repair may not be as strong
or as effective as a proper, new part.

I believe there is a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to this
whole topic of "fleet performance". That applies to both the general
public and to real, legitimate engineers who are expert in one area,
but are otherwise not so expert in the overall - they rely on their
titles as "engineers" as if they are expert in all areas.

There's much to what you say. In many cases plastic parts
replaced castings of zamac or similar pot metals which had
comparable strength. In those cases there is a worthwhile
savings in weight and cost.

On the other hand, there are many cases where a plastic
part replaced a metal part (often steel), where the
strength, brittleness, or wear resistance of the plastic
part was not adequate, leading to a much reduced product
life.

It's also worth noting that not all plastics are equal,
and an application where a fiber reinforced plastic like
Delrin is suitable wouldn't work with something like LDPE.
Especially in the 80s you saw a lot of metal subsituted
with weak, unsuitable plastics, where now better material
choices are being made.

John

On 02/26/2015 3:05 PM, John McCoy wrote:
....

There's much to what you say. In many cases plastic parts
replaced castings of zamac or similar pot metals which had
comparable strength. In those cases there is a worthwhile
savings in weight and cost.

On the other hand, there are many cases where a plastic
part replaced a metal part (often steel), where the
strength, brittleness, or wear resistance of the plastic
part was not adequate, leading to a much reduced product
life.
....

Amen, brother!!! Just one example is the exit/entrance heater hose
ports on the 3800L GM engine that are just plastic elbows. They fail
regularly where an "old style" threaded hose connector would never fail.

Another pet peeve of mine is the replacement of glass headlamp covers
with plastic that crazes and weathers reducing visibility markedly
whereas the glass would typically be good for the life of the vehicle
barring following too many trucks too closely.

On our gravel roads the plastic headlight covers are pitted/scratched
within months...

I could go on (and on and on....) with a litany.

--

On 2/25/2015 8:25 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:13:31 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
tools that I have purchased.

I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon

I'm still trying to decide between the Laguna 14SUV and a Rikon
10-351. It won't be soon, though.

If you can test drive each start saving for the Laguna.

On 2/25/2015 8:21 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 22:07:18 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 9:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment


I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.

I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
though.

I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
had a broken trunnion.

I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
been great (wish I could play with it).

That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.

The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
$3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
represent income, rather outgo.

When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
out about that time and I bought it instead.

I looked closely at the Powermatic VS but was really turned off by the
loud noises coming from the transmission. Way too noisily for an
expensive piece of equipment.

I didn't notice that. I guess it's a good thing I didn't go that way.
I really like the Delta, though changing speeds is sort of a pain
(three pulleys).

I hear you.... I did upgrade to the link belts for considerably less
vibration but a bit more noise on higher speeds.




Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.

And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
too but still north of $3K.

Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
Unisaws under $1000?

No, $1000. less that they were introduced at. You can get them now in
the $2500~$2700 range.


Ah, that makes more sense. They were at least that much overpriced
when they came out.



Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.

Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)

I hear you, selling my work helps justify the expense.

WW is never going to be more than a hobby for me. It keeps me out of
the bars. ;-)

That is how I started out.....and then a hobby turned into more.

On 2/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Martin Eastburn wrote in news:l4xHw.1932473
:

Just like the cantilever locking device made out of plastic and
opens / locks the back side door on my 3 door S10. The door is held
in by force and the force drives the plastic to break. Wish I had a
metal version. Might have to make one.

I suspect it was done to limit weight like the crappy 5mph bumpers
that is used on many cars to limit weight.

The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.

The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
part, if not more.

John

I hear what you are saying but many plastic parts on door strikers and
latches provide more cushion than metal, keeps the noise down.

On 2/26/2015 4:34 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/26/2015 3:05 PM, John McCoy wrote:
...

There's much to what you say. In many cases plastic parts
replaced castings of zamac or similar pot metals which had
comparable strength. In those cases there is a worthwhile
savings in weight and cost.

On the other hand, there are many cases where a plastic
part replaced a metal part (often steel), where the
strength, brittleness, or wear resistance of the plastic
part was not adequate, leading to a much reduced product
life.
...

Amen, brother!!! Just one example is the exit/entrance heater hose
ports on the 3800L GM engine that are just plastic elbows. They fail
regularly where an "old style" threaded hose connector would never fail.

Another pet peeve of mine is the replacement of glass headlamp covers
with plastic that crazes and weathers reducing visibility markedly
whereas the glass would typically be good for the life of the vehicle
barring following too many trucks too closely.


I'll assume you are talking about glass sealed beam headlights. Those
simply burn out before the glass goes bad. And none of these compared
in out put like the body shaped lenses over the head lamp bulbs.

"Leon" wrote:



The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.
-------------------------------------
One of the reasons it never even made my long list for a
toy PU truck.

But then after the Toyota Tacoma, nothing else even came close.

Lew

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:48:53 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 8:21 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 22:07:18 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 9:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:19:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 5:44 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 1:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
a piece on my table saw broke and I decided that I will not spend money
on Jet tools again. Too many little things have broken on the two shop
tools I have that are made by Jet.

I've made a replacement piece for the latest breakage from wood and
so far it seems to be fine
the original part is broken into about 10 pieces
a crappy cast aluminum part which was exactly the wrong material
for this application

I can't do that for the other stuff and have just had to fudge it

for example the quick-adjust handle on the lathe tool rest is
stripped.
the handle is spring loaded so you can pull it out, rotate it then
tighten/loosen in a better position. well that crappy aluminum
was a really bad choice as it stripped out and I did not abuse this
handle
I was always careful to pull it all the way out then rotate and
made sure it was seated again then tighten/loosen

I bought a plastic knob and that works ok, but not as much leverage
as the original handle

also the nut on the lathe tool rest that attaches under the bedway
was a flattened nut with a nylon ring. the nylon gave way and
the tool rest could not be adequately tightened to the bedway
replaced it with a plain old nut and so far so good


all these little things add up to sour me on Jet
they may have reduced the cost to pass on the savings to me but now
i lose and they lose

a lose-lose situation or mutually assured disappointment


I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy better
quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet woodworking
machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta tools that I
have purchased.

I like my Unisaur and Delta 18-300 drill press better than anything
equivalent from Jet. I can't think of any other Delta tools I'd have,
though.

I considered a Unisaw when buying my first cabinet saw in 1999. At that
time there was a lot of comments about new Unisaws having broken
trunnions. The Delta explanation was that the shippers were at fault.
While this may have been true no other manufacturers were having issues.
IIRC some one like Charlie Self had found out one way or another that
the torquing was not correct during assembly, IIRC. Anyway I thought
that the complaints/issues were an anomaly until I visited my local
supplier, 2 blocks from home, and learned that their show room floor saw
had a broken trunnion.

I remember that period. I didn't buy mine until 2009, though. It's
been great (wish I could play with it).

That prompted me to buy the Jet cabinet saw. I
owned that saw until 2013, when I replaced it with the SawStop, and sold
the saw for what I paid for the saw itself. I threw in the HTC out feed
roller and mobile base. The saw cost me $400 to use for 14 years. I
had no issues with the saw at all other than a normal situation that
even the Unisaw on NYW exhibited. I do have a Delta DP and like it, it
replaced a smaller Rockwell radial DP.

The SawStop would have cost twice what I paid for the Unisaw. The
capital expense board didn't have any problem with $1600. Nearly
$3500 wasn't going to get approved. ;-) Remember, it doesn't
represent income, rather outgo.

When I was looking at DPs, I just about went with the variable speed
Powermatic but decided that it didn't go slow enough. The 18-300 came
out about that time and I bought it instead.

I looked closely at the Powermatic VS but was really turned off by the
loud noises coming from the transmission. Way too noisily for an
expensive piece of equipment.

I didn't notice that. I guess it's a good thing I didn't go that way.
I really like the Delta, though changing speeds is sort of a pain
(three pulleys).

I hear you.... I did upgrade to the link belts for considerably less
vibration but a bit more noise on higher speeds.




Delta Scroll Saw sucked a big one. Delta 15" stationary planer works
fine but is no better IMHO than the other Jet equipment that I have.
Delta 12" disk sander is useful but it is not a precision tool.
Although it has adjustments for table tilt I would not want to make
those adjustments. Delta 12" CMS prone to break at the guard.

And speaking of the Unisaw, the new one/latest version has dropped in
prove significantly since the first few years of production. IIRC when
I was looking at all of the saw brands again 2 years ago the Unisaw was
in the neighborhood of $3700.00, basically the price of a PM 2000.
Today it can be had for about $1000.00 less. The PM is a little less
too but still north of $3K.

Yes, when I bought my Unisaw the new version was about the price of
the SawStop (silly). Mine was a leftover so I got a steal on it New
Unisaws under $1000?

No, $1000. less that they were introduced at. You can get them now in
the $2500~$2700 range.


Ah, that makes more sense. They were at least that much overpriced
when they came out.



Anyway.....it was going to be the Euro version of a Laguna with scoring
blade and sliding table or the SawStop. I chose the industrial version
of the SS and I am extremely pleased with it.

Given unlimited $$ I might have done the same. ;-)

I hear you, selling my work helps justify the expense.

WW is never going to be more than a hobby for me. It keeps me out of
the bars. ;-)

That is how I started out.....and then a hobby turned into more.

I have no intention of doing that. It would ruin a perfectly good
hobby.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:54efb594$0$43061
:

The S10 is an excellent example of cost-engineering. There's
a lot of crappy design in that truck to make it cheap.
-------------------------------------
One of the reasons it never even made my long list for a
toy PU truck.

To my regret, I learned of it's deficiencies by owning
one. Unfortunately it combined poor engineering with
worse build quality, easily the worst vehicle I ever
bought.

But then after the Toyota Tacoma, nothing else even came close.

The S10 got replaced by a Ford F150 longbed in 2000,
which is still in fine shape (except it needs to be
painted). Doubt I'd ever consider anything but another
Ford if I was looking for a new pickup - but at this
point I kinda figure I'll never need to replace the
one I have.

One thing, tho - if you do woodworking a longbed truck
is a really useful thing. Being able to put 8' lumber
and plywood in the bed, with the tailgate up and the
tonneau cover over, makes life much simpler. And I
can easily carry 12', and with careful tieing 16', with
the tailgate down. The only downside is it's a pain
to park.

John

John McCoy wrote:


It's also worth noting that not all plastics are equal,
and an application where a fiber reinforced plastic like
Delrin is suitable wouldn't work with something like LDPE.
Especially in the 80s you saw a lot of metal subsituted
with weak, unsuitable plastics, where now better material
choices are being made.


I agree with this John. It was a live and learn sort of experience, and
we've come a long way in understanding synthetics and how to apply them.
Lots of 16 and 18 guage steel was successfully replaced by plastics (sorry -
I really don't understand plastics like you do, so I use the inaccurate term
"plastics") that provide resistance to rust and ridigity required in today's
automobiles. Like I say - many of these parts really did not reduce weight
very much - if at all, but brought a different economic value to the
picture. Now, bumpers on the other hand...

--

-Mike-

dpb wrote:


Amen, brother!!! Just one example is the exit/entrance heater hose
ports on the 3800L GM engine that are just plastic elbows. They fail
regularly where an "old style" threaded hose connector would never
fail.

Had a couple of cars (2 or 3) with the 3.8L and I never encountered that
problem. All of them hit at least 250,000 miles before I got rid of them.
And I thought I had encountered just about all of the typical GM problems...


Another pet peeve of mine is the replacement of glass headlamp covers
with plastic that crazes and weathers reducing visibility markedly
whereas the glass would typically be good for the life of the vehicle
barring following too many trucks too closely.

Preach it brother!


--

-Mike-

Lew Hodgett wrote:

One of the reasons it never even made my long list for a
toy PU truck.

But then after the Toyota Tacoma, nothing else even came close.


I've been casually looking at smaller pickups again as I consider whether to
breath new life into my 94 Silverado or to go back to a toy truck. I may
just go ahead and get a rolling chassis from down south somewhere and move
my body and drive line over to a clean chassis, and get another 8-10 years
out of the old girl for just a couple to a few grand.

Having been looking though, it seems really clear to me that in the toy
truck market, the Tacoma is the undisputed, hands-down winner - especially
with the 6 cylinder engine. If I decide to go the route of a newer truck,
it will be a Tacoma without a doubt.

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:48:51 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
...

The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
part, if not more.

Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
the weight reduction.

Exactly. Ford didn't put an aluminum hood on my wife's car to save
money and the aluminum F150 isn't a cost reduction either. I work in
the automotive electronics industry. Even the electronics is under
pressure to save weight. Grams count.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:45:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 8:25 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:13:31 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:48:28 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

I can understand your frustration and is the primary reason I buy
better quality tools. But having said that I own/have owned 5 Jet
woodworking machines. They are by far a better quality of any Delta
tools that I have purchased.

I would guess that delta will have to get more thoughtful designs
to remain viable, same for jet. I looked at some videos of laguna
bandsaws and if I had the $ I'd get one soon

I'm still trying to decide between the Laguna 14SUV and a Rikon
10-351. It won't be soon, though.

If you can test drive each start saving for the Laguna.

The difference is only a couple of hundred bucks. The smaller Lagunas
aren't the same as the spaghetti saws, either. Laguna has a horrible
reputation for service and build quality on the lower end. If
Laguna's reputation weren't in the toilet, I wouldn't consider the
Rikon.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 21:12:19 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:48:51 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 02/26/2015 9:13 AM, John McCoy wrote:
...

The plastic part isn't to save weight, it's to save cost.
The cost to form a metal part is 10x that of a plastic
part, if not more.

Much of it is both...the imposition of the fleet average requirements
was the beginning of a massive upswing in plastics/composites/etc. for
the weight reduction.

Exactly. Ford didn't put an aluminum hood on my wife's car to save
money and the aluminum F150 isn't a cost reduction either. I work in
the automotive electronics industry. Even the electronics is under
pressure to save weight. Grams count.

MSRP on a 2015 4x4 Crew cab $50,000 and a regular cab at about 40
grand. But they were having a sale so you don't have to pay full
price.