I went to the local Ace store today and bought a box of wood screws,
size 10, Hillman brand. When I brought them home I decided to check the
shank size, and was surprised when they came in a little small, about
0.150", instead of the 0.190 that I was expecting.

https://i.imgur.com/xlke7UK.jpg

Thinking I might be losing my mind, I measured an old wood screw that I
had laying around, which my mind told me was a #10, and it measured
0.190". I even called the local fastener store, and they confirmed that
0.190" (or 3/16 as they put it) is the proper shank size for a #10 wood
screw.

So what's the deal now, did I end up with a mislabeled box of wood
screws, or did someone change the specs on these things while I wasn't
looking?

Jon -- puzzled

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 3:17:41 PM UTC-5, Jon Danniken wrote:
I went to the local Ace store today and bought a box of wood screws,
size 10, Hillman brand. When I brought them home I decided to check the
shank size, and was surprised when they came in a little small, about
0.150", instead of the 0.190 that I was expecting.

https://i.imgur.com/xlke7UK.jpg

Thinking I might be losing my mind, I measured an old wood screw that I
had laying around, which my mind told me was a #10, and it measured
0.190". I even called the local fastener store, and they confirmed that
0.190" (or 3/16 as they put it) is the proper shank size for a #10 wood
screw.

So what's the deal now, did I end up with a mislabeled box of wood
screws, or did someone change the specs on these things while I wasn't
looking?

Jon -- puzzled

Are you sure you didn't buy a box of nails? ;-)

http://www.thomasnet.com/articles/ha...rew-nail-sizes

10D shank size is 0.148

Check this out:
http://www.ou.edu/aoi/images/Wood%20...ll%20Sizes.pdf

Sonny

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message

I went to the local Ace store today and bought a box of wood screws,
size 10, Hillman brand. When I brought them home I decided to check the
shank size, and was surprised when they came in a little small, about
0.150", instead of the 0.190 that I was expecting.

https://i.imgur.com/xlke7UK.jpg

Thinking I might be losing my mind, I measured an old wood screw that I
had laying around, which my mind told me was a #10, and it measured
0.190". I even called the local fastener store, and they confirmed that
0.190" (or 3/16 as they put it) is the proper shank size for a #10 wood
screw.

So what's the deal now, did I end up with a mislabeled box of wood
screws, or did someone change the specs on these things while I wasn't
looking?

Jon -- puzzled

Looks like the "3/4" plywood and "half gallon" ice cream guys have struck
again. Not to mention the 13.5 oz pound people

I'd take them back and talk to the manager.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 16:32:36 -0500
"dadiOH" wrote:

Looks like the "3/4" plywood and "half gallon" ice cream guys have
struck again. Not to mention the 13.5 oz pound people

and the 12oz. pint of beer people in the glass that's not full so it's
about 11oz if lucky


now what did they do to 1/2 gal. ice cream? and 3/4 plywood

On 1/28/2015 4:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:



now what did they do to 1/2 gal. ice cream? and 3/4 plywood


Ice cream is now 1 1/2 quarts, plywood is about 1/16" under.

On 01/28/2015 01:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:

Looks like the "3/4" plywood and "half gallon" ice cream guys have
struck again. Not to mention the 13.5 oz pound people

I'd take them back and talk to the manager.

Oh, they are definitely going back, that is for sure, and if I'm not too
lazy I probably should ask to speak to the hardware manager.

Jon

Jon Danniken wrote in
:

I went to the local Ace store today and bought a box of wood screws,
size 10, Hillman brand. When I brought them home I decided to check
the shank size, and was surprised when they came in a little small,
about 0.150", instead of the 0.190 that I was expecting.

https://i.imgur.com/xlke7UK.jpg

Thinking I might be losing my mind, I measured an old wood screw that
I had laying around, which my mind told me was a #10, and it measured
0.190". I even called the local fastener store, and they confirmed
that 0.190" (or 3/16 as they put it) is the proper shank size for a
#10 wood screw.

So what's the deal now, did I end up with a mislabeled box of wood
screws, or did someone change the specs on these things while I wasn't
looking?

They are cheap, low quality screws. Home Depot quality. That's
all that can be said for them.

On a standard wood screw, the shank should be the same diameter
as the major diameter of the threads. On your screws, it's the
same as the minor diameter of the threads. That's normal for
deck screws and drywall screws, but not for standard wood screws.

John

On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 17:19:42 -0500
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Ice cream is now 1 1/2 quarts, plywood is about 1/16" under.


One of the kings of yore decided they should collect all gold coins
in circulation and they did so over time. But later people discovered
that the coins had had some gold shaved off of them at the king's
request. it didn't go over well and was considered bad policy

now they just print more $$ when needed plus pay no interest to us
and charge us interest to borrow

On 01/28/2015 02:46 PM, John McCoy wrote:

They are cheap, low quality screws. Home Depot quality. That's
all that can be said for them.

Home Depot screws are worse; the heads aren't even round.

On a standard wood screw, the shank should be the same diameter
as the major diameter of the threads. On your screws, it's the
same as the minor diameter of the threads. That's normal for
deck screws and drywall screws, but not for standard wood screws.

I think you're on to something there; the threads are indeed bigger than
the shank, coming in at 0.180", still smaller than the shanks are
supposed to be.
The minor diameter is correct, coming in at 0.130, so at least they got
that right.

I can't be the first guy who has noticed this, but I'm guessing most
people just maybe don't care. Still, why don't they just sell the
proper size screws and raise the price fifty cents or whatever it would
have to be. *******s.

Jon

"Jon Danniken" wrote:

Home Depot screws are worse; the heads aren't even round.
------------------------------------------------------
If you want quality wood screws, check out Jamestown Distributors.

They serve the marine market.

Good stuff.

Lew

On 1/28/2015 4:19 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/28/2015 4:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:



now what did they do to 1/2 gal. ice cream? and 3/4 plywood


Ice cream is now 1 1/2 quarts, plywood is about 1/16" under AND BOTH TWICE THE PRICE.


fify ..

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/28/15 5:57 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
On 01/28/2015 02:46 PM, John McCoy wrote:

They are cheap, low quality screws. Home Depot quality. That's
all that can be said for them.

Home Depot screws are worse; the heads aren't even round.

On a standard wood screw, the shank should be the same diameter as
the major diameter of the threads. On your screws, it's the same
as the minor diameter of the threads. That's normal for deck
screws and drywall screws, but not for standard wood screws.

I think you're on to something there; the threads are indeed bigger
than the shank, coming in at 0.180", still smaller than the shanks
are supposed to be. The minor diameter is correct, coming in at
0.130, so at least they got that right.

I can't be the first guy who has noticed this, but I'm guessing most
people just maybe don't care. Still, why don't they just sell the
proper size screws and raise the price fifty cents or whatever it
would have to be. *******s.

Jon


I guess I don't understand what all the hubbub is about.
Perhaps the metal is stronger, thus the smaller diameter.

I don't remember the last time I bought off-the-shelf Hillman type
fasteners. Technology has left them in the dust.

Specialty screws like Spax, GRK, HighPoint, Kreg, FastenMaster and
others have made standard zinc screws the floppy disks of fasteners.
The last package of cabinet screws I bought from GRK were about half the
thickness of a zinc screw of the same strength.

I used structural fasteners for my post/beam outbuilding this summer.
They were almost half the thickness of equivalent lag bolts or
galvanized bolts, but rated much higher in both sheer and tensile
strength.

For standard wood screws, I either buy from McFeely's website, my local
woodcraft, or the specialty shelves at Lowes or Home Depot.
Run-of-the-mill zinc screws are my absolute last choice and I always
feel like I'm being paid back for poor decisions in life whenever I'm
forced to use them. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote in :

I guess I don't understand what all the hubbub is about.
Perhaps the metal is stronger, thus the smaller diameter.

If there's sideways loading on the screw, you want the shank
to bear against the sides of the hole. You don't want all
the load to be carried by the screwhead bearing on the
countersink.

If the screw is purely in tension, then it doesn't make any
difference (as long as the strength of the shank is still
adequate).

Granted, for most any application where you did have a
sideways load you wouldn't use a Home Depot grade screw
anyway (and it would likely be stainless or silicon bronze,
not a common galvanized screw).

John

On 1/29/2015 11:50 AM, John McCoy wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in :

I guess I don't understand what all the hubbub is about.
Perhaps the metal is stronger, thus the smaller diameter.

If there's sideways loading on the screw, you want the shank
to bear against the sides of the hole. You don't want all
the load to be carried by the screwhead bearing on the
countersink.

If the screw is purely in tension, then it doesn't make any
difference (as long as the strength of the shank is still
adequate).

Granted, for most any application where you did have a
sideways load you wouldn't use a Home Depot grade screw
anyway (and it would likely be stainless or silicon bronze,
not a common galvanized screw).

John


Most of the screws that HD sells are not worth having but they do sell
SPAX screws and I think you would be hard pressed to find a better screw.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 6:27:39 PM UTC-8, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/28/15 5:57 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
On 01/28/2015 02:46 PM, John McCoy wrote:

On a standard wood screw, the shank should be the same diameter as
the major diameter of the threads. On your screws, it's the same
as the minor diameter of the threads. That's normal for deck
screws and drywall screws, but not for standard wood screws.

I guess I don't understand what all the hubbub is about.
Perhaps the metal is stronger, thus the smaller diameter.

It's about the failure of the wood, not the metal. A smaller diameter
than the clearance hole means the shank of the screw
takes sideways loads on a small part of its area (and lbs/sq. in. stress is
higher). That will crush the adjacent wood fiber and prevent the item from
becoming a treasured, intact, antique... rather, it's another old creaky
chair/desk/gibbet.

Inexpensive (sheetrock-style) screws work OK for holding a glued joint
shut, and the glue prevents shifting, but that IS NOT always what the
designer wants.

On 1/29/15 3:58 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 6:27:39 PM UTC-8, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/28/15 5:57 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
On 01/28/2015 02:46 PM, John McCoy wrote:

On a standard wood screw, the shank should be the same diameter
as the major diameter of the threads. On your screws, it's the
same as the minor diameter of the threads. That's normal for
deck screws and drywall screws, but not for standard wood
screws.

I guess I don't understand what all the hubbub is about. Perhaps
the metal is stronger, thus the smaller diameter.

It's about the failure of the wood, not the metal. A smaller
diameter than the clearance hole means the shank of the screw takes
sideways loads on a small part of its area (and lbs/sq. in. stress
is higher). That will crush the adjacent wood fiber and prevent the
item from becoming a treasured, intact, antique... rather, it's
another old creaky chair/desk/gibbet.

Inexpensive (sheetrock-style) screws work OK for holding a glued
joint shut, and the glue prevents shifting, but that IS NOT always
what the designer wants.


You glue OR you screw. Not both. If someone is making furniture today
that they intend to become an antique generations from now, and they are
using screws, then it's not an antique I want to look at.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:46:45 -0600, Leon wrote:

Most of the screws that HD sells are not worth having but they do sell
SPAX screws and I think you would be hard pressed to find a better
screw.

For good holding power where appearance is not important I've sometimes
used the Tex lath screws. The washer head is that much more resistance
to twisting, they're cheaper than Kreg screws, and the washer is larger.

-MIKE- wrote in :

You glue OR you screw. Not both.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, but while this is generally
true for cabinetry, where loads are small, it's not the
case for things like boatbuilding, where large forces at
strange angles are common.

John

-MIKE- writes:
On 1/29/15 3:58 PM, whit3rd wrote:

Inexpensive (sheetrock-style) screws work OK for holding a glued
joint shut, and the glue prevents shifting, but that IS NOT always
what the designer wants.


You glue OR you screw. Not both. If someone is making furniture today
that they intend to become an antique generations from now, and they are
using screws, then it's not an antique I want to look at.


That seems a bit, well, elitist.

I Disagree. I've see plenty of antique furniture that uses both
glue and screws, dating back well over 100 years. High quality
furniture.

On 1/30/15 10:17 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:
On 1/29/15 3:58 PM, whit3rd wrote:

Inexpensive (sheetrock-style) screws work OK for holding a glued
joint shut, and the glue prevents shifting, but that IS NOT always
what the designer wants.


You glue OR you screw. Not both. If someone is making furniture today
that they intend to become an antique generations from now, and they are
using screws, then it's not an antique I want to look at.


That seems a bit, well, elitist.

I Disagree. I've see plenty of antique furniture that uses both
glue and screws, dating back well over 100 years. High quality
furniture.


Scott, I think you read to fast. :-)
I'm not talking about things that are already antiques.
Today's glue is light years ahead of the stuff form a century ago.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 10:17:10 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
I've see plenty of antique furniture that uses both
glue and screws, dating back well over 100 years. High quality
furniture.

The old hardware often allows for dating (date range) an old piece of furnitu handmade vs production screws and nails (fasteners), hinge and pull styles/designs, etc., similarly as the woodwork, itself, design/styles. Even tool marks can aid in determining interesting/relevent aspects of an old piece.

Sonny

-MIKE- writes:
On 1/30/15 10:17 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:
On 1/29/15 3:58 PM, whit3rd wrote:

Inexpensive (sheetrock-style) screws work OK for holding a glued
joint shut, and the glue prevents shifting, but that IS NOT always
what the designer wants.


You glue OR you screw. Not both. If someone is making furniture today
that they intend to become an antique generations from now, and they are
using screws, then it's not an antique I want to look at.


That seems a bit, well, elitist.

I Disagree. I've see plenty of antique furniture that uses both
glue and screws, dating back well over 100 years. High quality
furniture.


Scott, I think you read to fast. :-)
I'm not talking about things that are already antiques.
Today's glue is light years ahead of the stuff form a century ago.

True, yet I remember much gnashing of teeth about Norm's
use of brads as a method of clamping some glued joints
(often joints that would be difficult to clamp).

I've no problem augmenting glueblocks with screws when the
potential for racking forces exist, particularly around the
base skirt/feet on a chest of drawers or tallboy cabinet. Visible
screws would be tacky, but if they're not visible...

On 1/30/15 11:53 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:
On 1/30/15 10:17 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
-MIKE- writes:
On 1/29/15 3:58 PM, whit3rd wrote:

Inexpensive (sheetrock-style) screws work OK for holding a glued
joint shut, and the glue prevents shifting, but that IS NOT always
what the designer wants.


You glue OR you screw. Not both. If someone is making furniture today
that they intend to become an antique generations from now, and they are
using screws, then it's not an antique I want to look at.


That seems a bit, well, elitist.

I Disagree. I've see plenty of antique furniture that uses both
glue and screws, dating back well over 100 years. High quality
furniture.


Scott, I think you read to fast. :-)
I'm not talking about things that are already antiques.
Today's glue is light years ahead of the stuff form a century ago.

True, yet I remember much gnashing of teeth about Norm's
use of brads as a method of clamping some glued joints
(often joints that would be difficult to clamp).

I've no problem augmenting glueblocks with screws when the
potential for racking forces exist, particularly around the
base skirt/feet on a chest of drawers or tallboy cabinet. Visible
screws would be tacky, but if they're not visible...


Norm used brads as temporary clamping until the glue dried. Apples/Oranges
Using screws to augment modern glue is completely unnecessary.
It's akin to strapping down a tool box you bolted to the bed of your
truck.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

(Scott Lurndal) wrote in
:

True, yet I remember much gnashing of teeth about Norm's
use of brads as a method of clamping some glued joints
(often joints that would be difficult to clamp).

I think a lot of that was because the brads were visible in
the finished piece, and the joint could have been clamped
if Norm had wanted to try (and, of course, that most folk
doing cabinetry don't keep a loaded air-nailer at the ready
for such tasks).

John

On 1/30/2015 1:27 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Norm used brads as temporary clamping until the glue dried.

"Temporary" is what he kept saying, but I never saw him pull one out.

On 1/30/15 3:18 PM, Larry Kraus wrote:
On 1/30/2015 1:27 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Norm used brads as temporary clamping until the glue dried.

"Temporary" is what he kept saying, but I never saw him pull one
out.

Wow, really? You think that's what he meant by temporary?
You actually thought he was going to remove them? Of course you didn't.

When I hear him say that I'm thinking they hold the piece together until
the glue dries. I never thought for a second he'd remove them.

He's using something that's much weaker than a cured glue connection to
hold the pieces together until the glue dries.

When people, today, use glue and screws, they are being redundant. The
screws are doing nothing once the glue dries. I've used pocket screws
in unseen locations to clamp bookcases together while the glue dries,
because I didn't have enough clamps. I actually take the pocket screws
out and reuse them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/30/2015 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/30/15 3:18 PM, Larry Kraus wrote:
On 1/30/2015 1:27 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Norm used brads as temporary clamping until the glue dried.

"Temporary" is what he kept saying, but I never saw him pull one
out.

Wow, really? You think that's what he meant by temporary?
You actually thought he was going to remove them? Of course you didn't.

When I hear him say that I'm thinking they hold the piece together until
the glue dries. I never thought for a second he'd remove them.

He's using something that's much weaker than a cured glue connection to
hold the pieces together until the glue dries.

When people, today, use glue and screws, they are being redundant. The
screws are doing nothing once the glue dries. I've used pocket screws
in unseen locations to clamp bookcases together while the glue dries,
because I didn't have enough clamps. I actually take the pocket screws
out and reuse them.


I understood what Norm meant, I just always laughed every time he said it.

"tem·po·rar·y
ˈtempəˌrerē/
adjective
1.
lasting for only a limited period of time; not permanent.
"a temporary job"
synonyms: nonpermanent, short-term, interim"

You are using your pocket screws as temporary fasteners (and in hidden
locations). Norm's brads are still in place, they are permanent. My
quibble with Norm's word choice was that he did not say "These brads
will be sufficient to hold these parts together while the glue dries, if
I am careful not to stress the assembly."

(And he used them in very visible locations).

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 12:46:10 PM UTC-5, Larry Kraus wrote:
On 1/30/2015 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/30/15 3:18 PM, Larry Kraus wrote:
On 1/30/2015 1:27 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Norm used brads as temporary clamping until the glue dried.

"Temporary" is what he kept saying, but I never saw him pull one
out.

Wow, really? You think that's what he meant by temporary?
You actually thought he was going to remove them? Of course you didn't..

When I hear him say that I'm thinking they hold the piece together until
the glue dries. I never thought for a second he'd remove them.

He's using something that's much weaker than a cured glue connection to
hold the pieces together until the glue dries.

When people, today, use glue and screws, they are being redundant. The
screws are doing nothing once the glue dries. I've used pocket screws
in unseen locations to clamp bookcases together while the glue dries,
because I didn't have enough clamps. I actually take the pocket screws
out and reuse them.


I understood what Norm meant, I just always laughed every time he said it..

"tem·po·rar·y
ˈtempəˌrerē/
adjective
1.
lasting for only a limited period of time; not permanent.
"a temporary job"
synonyms: nonpermanent, short-term, interim"


Oft-heard DIY repair adage:

It's only temporary...unless it works.

;-)