On 8/13/2014 11:40 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 8/13/2014 10:50 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


So basically, the carts are not speeding up play, which was my point.


Nope - disagree. The whole thought behind speeding the play was all about
getting the player to the ball quicker than walking. Everything after that
is just golf etiquette. But - they do get the player to the ball faster.


The walker
typically will walk straight to where his ball went.

The walker who wants to present his style of play may say that, but
if you had been out on a course in the past 10 years you would know
that is not true - not at all.

Yeah, time does not change the thinking unless the courses are
littered with hacks.


Leon - you really need to get back on the course and take an honest and
objective look at play.


They move slowly because they feel they have some
fundamental right to do so, and they then display the same
inconsiderations as the cart players do when it comes to finding
their ball or going to ball placement.

Ball placement, all too often, assuming there is not a regulation
that allows relocation of the ball the ball should be hit where it
lies. And today's golfers may be may be confused as to how golf
should be played. I was a little bit of a bogie golfer, legitimate
bogie golfer. I did not hit mulligans, did not move my ball to a
better lie, did not clam gimme's on th4e green.

This is exactly how I play, and I am a 90's golfer - not all that great.

I was generally in the low to mid 80's.

I counted every
stroke and penalty stroke.

As do I. I maintain that it does not help my game to take "shortcuts".

What shortcuts?


I often found it interesting that when I
played with some one new and I indicated how I played and they
indicated that they some times played par in a round that I almost
always easily beat them. I counted their strokes and their
penalties. I guarantee you that if you start walking the course your
game will get better.


So this is where our experiences differ but our philosophies agree. It's
not at all about walking the course or riding the course. It's all about
your personal standards. You and I shoot to the same ethical standards.
Don't matter a bit if we do that from our flat feet or from a cart.

But if you build up the stamina to walk the whole course you will become
a better golfer. And if you are on the 15th and fly to ball 20 yards
past the green you pay the physical penalty if you are walking. No big
deal if you are riding in a cart.




When you have 2
players in a cart the driver typically goes straight towards one or
the other ball. They loose track of where the other ball went.

Really? Have you played since those old days Leon?

How has that changed???

Just to point out that this is not how players experience the game. Believe
it or not we really can keep track of 2 balls with the same accuracy as
those who walk the course.

Then I will have to say your courses may not be as rough as some that I
have played on. For example, when you go off the fairway into the rough
you are instantly in 18" tall field grass and trees. You can't see the
ball and likely will not find it unless you go straight to the point
that it went in and follow that line. Not unusual at all to almost step
on the ball before you spot it. That is tough to do when approaching
from another angle in a cart.







Walkers split up and go straight towards his or her ball. In a cart
you go to one ball and then the other. No time is really saved.

Really (again) - have you really played in the past 10 years Leon? Golf
etiquette used to be one thing but it has failed miserably over
the years. The things you remember from way back when are not the
same today. Well - not all of them, anyway.

So the walkers don't walk to where they think they hit their balls?

Been on the course lately?

As I have indicated, it has be 20 years and if what you are describing
is the norm I'll probably never play again.


Regardless it seems you have witnessed that the carts don't really
speed up play.

Huh? I never made any such statement. I said that was the reason for the
introduction of carts and that seemed to have caused a stir. From that
point I've only suggested that the proposed advantages in walking were not
as they were suggested to be. Then I attempted to debunk some stuff about
cart players vs walkers

In Corpus Christi, TX carts had been around for a long time be for the
70's. Dam few times do I recall seeing more than 3 or 4 carts on a
crowded course. I do recall seeing a long line of carts ready to be
rented. Carts are/were a convenience. I think the excuse of speeding
up play helps distract the facts that there is extra revenue collected
when the course requires you to use one. And yes I have a couple of
friends that have their own carts and did not get a full discount for
using their own, on some courses.







Maybe it is a Yankee thang. ;~0 D,&,R

Alas - I am totally defensless in the face of that one...


;~)

On 8/13/2014 11:59 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


I think you are missing my original point, it seems we have drifted
off a bit. I still maintain that as a whole the better golfers will
be the walkers in the grand scheme. Walking naturally is better for
you physically. But for the interest of going with good golfers
riding, I wonder how they would hold up against an equal player that
walks if both walked. I suspect the one that rides all of the time
would run out of steam, and that will affect judgement and his play.
Lets put the scratch golfers as a group up against the pro golfers
that walk. I bet their score differences will broaden.



That might be true but there are too many variables to make a quick
comparison. Pros have caddies that do all of the heavy lifting for them,
they have marshalls that spot their balls for them - lots of differences. I
just do not believe we can compare the pros to the casual golfer in any
respect.

I don't think many "scratch" golfers, that you referred to, are casual
golfers.








When you ride
in a cart it is not real important to hit the ball down the fairway.

Really? That presumes that score does not count. Sorry Leon - but
that sounds like a purist's argument. Let's face it - it always
matters where you hit the ball - it's not about travel to the ball,
it's about score.

The honest score does not count, even when I played. I played in
numerous, countless tournaments when I was young. Every thing was
legit and all penalties and strokes were counted. 20 years ago most
of the people I played did a lot of fudging.

Ok - to stop there - that is a complete contradiction. Honest and fudging
do not fit in the same description.

The tournaments were when I was much much younger, that was when the
honest game and score keeping was played. 20-25 years ago I was not
playing in tournaments, it was mostly business acquaintances.






Oh, my ball would have
a better lie if it rolled it over a few inches. Oh my T-shot went
out of bounds, MULLIGAN! Oh I'm with in 18" of the cup, I'll just
pick it up and maybe forget to count that as a stroke too.

See above. Still - has nothing to do with walking vs a cart.



Easy to say Mike, start walking and see of you have the same
perspective.

I have walked - a lot before I got more serious about my golf. I just don't
see that purist difference that you do.

Not so much a purist view as an actual experience view. I rode in carts
too, they were fun, but my game got much better when I had got serious
about improving and as a result shortening my walk.




It is tough to judge the wind when you ride in the cart

Fully disagree. It's not like you are propelled out of the cart to make a
shot before you can even feel the wind. That's just not true Leon.

and the wind is always in your face.

...until you get out of the cart...

It may not be windy in that spot, behind the trees, at all.



When riding in a cart there is no physical penalty for
hitting your ball off into the sticks.

Perhaps, but there remains the stroke penalty. You're suggesting
that the walk is somehow a bigger penalty - I do not buy that.

Let me explain, You are carrying a 30lb bag for 3~5 miles if you par
the course. If you shoot in the 90's or higher you are going to
probably carry that bag 10~15% further and lake longer to do so. I
would call that a physical penalty. Either way carries the same
stroke penalty. When walking you do put more thinking and effort to
shorten the amount of steps and to keep from walking through the
brush.

That's a point that I disagree with. I submit that regardless of the
walking effort, the play plays the course. Every shot is about getting to
the hole and little or no thought is about the walk or the ride to the next
lie. That's where I believe the purist argument comes into play. I've
never once ever heard a cart player suggest that the lie did not matter
because he could get to it in a cart...

The cart rider dies not care where he has to go or how far to get to his
ball, the walker does. I really did not see many cart golfers put as
much thinking into their game as the walkers.

On 8/13/2014 11:48 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 8/13/2014 10:51 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Yeahsowhat? You're criticizing that?...

Damned right ... there is a reason that is a _woman_ with the bubble
wrap in that photo. The total lack of a father figure in approximately
30% of the households is the highest, along with the divorce rate, it
has ever been in this culture.


Holy Cow - never even noticed that. Geeze...

Pretty good KoolAid huh? LOL





http://www.fatherhood.org/father-absence-statistics

On a secondary, but arguably parallel issue, wonder why the suicide
rate of combat veterans in the past decade, to almost 22 a day, is so
much higher than in any conflict by American troops in the past?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...ble-to-suicide

Ugh! now you're introducing another aspect of life that I haven't even
wrapped my head around. Geeze - thanks Karl...

Leon wrote:

That might be true but there are too many variables to make a quick
comparison. Pros have caddies that do all of the heavy lifting for
them, they have marshalls that spot their balls for them - lots of
differences. I just do not believe we can compare the pros to the
casual golfer in any respect.

I don't think many "scratch" golfers, that you referred to, are casual
golfers.


Well - you are mixing comments that I have made, but in fact there are a
large number of guys in my league that are below 14 hanidcap for 18.
Certainly not scratch but much better than most. Some are scratch players
who have tried out for the pro tournements that have come around here,. Are
they casual? Well I guess that depnds upon our definition of casual. They
have day jobs and golf is an after hours event for them.

Not so much a purist view as an actual experience view. I rode in
carts too, they were fun, but my game got much better when I had got
serious about improving and as a result shortening my walk.

Can't argue with that. Each of us experience different needs in improving
our games. Could be swing issues, relaxation issues, or a lot of other
things. Can't though, reduce it all to what we experienced in our own game.
It's different for differnt people.





It may not be windy in that spot, behind the trees, at all.

And it does not matter that much if you walked up to the ball or drove up to
it. You can still feel the wind. If the wind is not prevelent when you go
to hit the ball, it does not matter what you felt as you were 100 yards away
from the ball.


That's a point that I disagree with. I submit that regardless of the
walking effort, the play plays the course. Every shot is about
getting to the hole and little or no thought is about the walk or
the ride to the next lie. That's where I believe the purist
argument comes into play. I've never once ever heard a cart player
suggest that the lie did not matter because he could get to it in a
cart...

The cart rider dies not care where he has to go or how far to get to
his ball, the walker does. I really did not see many cart golfers
put as much thinking into their game as the walkers.

I totally disagree and this is the only real point upon which I disagree.
Like I said - when was the last time you were on a course and honestly
looked at the players. On this particular point I think you are simply
dreaming.

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:
On 8/13/2014 11:48 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 8/13/2014 10:51 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Yeahsowhat? You're criticizing that?...

Damned right ... there is a reason that is a _woman_ with the bubble
wrap in that photo. The total lack of a father figure in
approximately 30% of the households is the highest, along with the
divorce rate, it has ever been in this culture.


Holy Cow - never even noticed that. Geeze...

Pretty good KoolAid huh? LOL



I guess!

--

-Mike-

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 8:50:27 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
On 8/11/2014 8:29 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:



Always thought the basic reason you play golf is to get some exercise.



Not for today's pussified male, still playing virtual GI Joe at 35.



Like the Lance Armstrong wannabes, all decked out for the Tour de

Sidewalk, in that little instant gratification mind all that is needed

to stoke that fragile self esteem to imaginary magnificence is to look

the part.



Can't do that while sweating on the tweeds.


You know Karl, the next thing is that you might convince me I don't look very macho wearing a big hat, long sleeve shirt, nail bags, speed square stuck in my back pocket sawing Hardie Plank. Even when using a nailer! The compressor roars, the gun bangs, the saws whine, and my clothes are wet all the way through with sweat. It has been over 100 the last few days here, and I am finishing up my siding job. Paint tomorrow and Friday, then off on Saturday.

You know, come to think of it, if I look half as tired as I feel, I probably don't look very macho. Probably more like a worn out, middle aged guy that sweats a lot. Although... my lightweight nail bags are all black, so someone might think I am some kind of ninja of some sorts. Especially if I have my dust mask on when cutting the concrete trims. Unless they see me going up and down the ladder...

I have had some of those Rambonian tribe members work for me, and they are F'n worthless. Had them quit before lunch many a time. Some of them sure looked good, though. Nice muscles, good tribal ink, great haircuts and neatly styled beards, and properly worn and distressed looking name brand clothes.

Robert

On 8/13/2014 4:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

That might be true but there are too many variables to make a quick
comparison. Pros have caddies that do all of the heavy lifting for
them, they have marshalls that spot their balls for them - lots of
differences. I just do not believe we can compare the pros to the
casual golfer in any respect.

I don't think many "scratch" golfers, that you referred to, are casual
golfers.


Well - you are mixing comments that I have made, but in fact there are a
large number of guys in my league that are below 14 hanidcap for 18.
Certainly not scratch but much better than most. Some are scratch players
who have tried out for the pro tournements that have come around here,. Are
they casual? Well I guess that depnds upon our definition of casual. They
have day jobs and golf is an after hours event for them.

Not so much a purist view as an actual experience view. I rode in
carts too, they were fun, but my game got much better when I had got
serious about improving and as a result shortening my walk.

Can't argue with that. Each of us experience different needs in improving
our games. Could be swing issues, relaxation issues, or a lot of other
things. Can't though, reduce it all to what we experienced in our own game.
It's different for differnt people.





It may not be windy in that spot, behind the trees, at all.

And it does not matter that much if you walked up to the ball or drove up to
it. You can still feel the wind. If the wind is not prevelent when you go
to hit the ball, it does not matter what you felt as you were 100 yards away
from the ball.

You do realize that the wind 100 yards away is likely to be similar to
wind in the other direction. Wind does not typically blow north and
south, or east, or west when the ball is up in the air above the
surrounding trees and or buildings.

My point is you are constantly changing direction on the course even on
the same hole, The wind not so much. As you walk through clearings and
openings you feel the wind direction. There may be no wind at the ball
location as it may be protected. Hit the ball 30' high in the air the
wind is there again affecting your shot.

With a golf cart the wind tends to always be in your face and you may
never get a feel from which direction the wind is coming.







That's a point that I disagree with. I submit that regardless of the
walking effort, the play plays the course. Every shot is about
getting to the hole and little or no thought is about the walk or
the ride to the next lie. That's where I believe the purist
argument comes into play. I've never once ever heard a cart player
suggest that the lie did not matter because he could get to it in a
cart...

The cart rider dies not care where he has to go or how far to get to
his ball, the walker does. I really did not see many cart golfers
put as much thinking into their game as the walkers.

I totally disagree and this is the only real point upon which I disagree.
Like I said - when was the last time you were on a course and honestly
looked at the players. On this particular point I think you are simply
dreaming.

What ever.

On 8/13/2014 8:56 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


The pro's don't walk just because of the rules.



Really? Better do like I had to do after Karl's post and look it up on the
net.



Now you are just being belligerent.

Belligerent? Hell, with my handicap, I can't be belligerent...

test

I am going to have to agree with Karl, and while I have not played
golf in probably 20 years, I started when I was 14, at age 15 I
started playing 5 days a week. Age 18 I took a 14 year break and
began playing weekly after that.

In my life, I play golf religiously, once every ten years. I'm seven
years out from my next bout, and am using the money I save to go fishing
or buying good pool cues. So far, I am light years ahead in the amount
of time I get to recreate, and own some nice sticks.

Fergive the test. I have been getting a banlist message, and didn't on
that message, so figured it must be working again. So, if you see this,
you understand what the "TEST" meant. If you don't see this, you will
probably will figure it our.

Or not.

Steve