In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

Bob S.

ROTFLMAO
It is Egotistically self applied and does not make him better than me.



"Bob S." wrote in message
...
In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides
of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some
form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

Bob S.

Ya know, the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Erik


"Bob S." wrote in message
...
In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides
of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some
form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

Bob S.

The same program that puts out Master Baiters. Totally self inflicted.

--
Bill Pounds
http://www.bill.pounds.net/woodshop


"Bob S." wrote in message
...
In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides
of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some
form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

Bob S.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:09:25 GMT, "Bob S." wrote:

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master.

Alternatively, a master cabinetmaker was just one who was the master
of their own cabinet shop, employing journeymen and having
apprentices. You needed to qualify in the eyes of your own master to
finish your apprenticeship, but what you did after that was just up to
the depths of your pocket. There wasn't (in many countries, at least)
any formal distinction between journeyman and master, other than their
employment.

In the UK today, you could join "The Guild of Master Craftsmen" who
have an awful reputation as an organisation for cowboy plumbers, with
no real oversight or quality standards.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Andy,

Thought for certain that if anyone, the Brits would make a ceremony out of
it and we'd be calling them "Sir Master Cabinetmaker"... But I think your
answer is probably the derivative of how the title being used today. The
owner (master) of the shop used the title to distinguish his ranking -
versus being one of those poor apprentices and that over the years, the word
master became associated with "quality craftsmanship" - whether it really is
or not is a different story as you pointed out.

Thanks for the Far Side of the story.....

Bob S

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:09:25 GMT, "Bob S." wrote:

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some
form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master.

Alternatively, a master cabinetmaker was just one who was the master
of their own cabinet shop, employing journeymen and having
apprentices. You needed to qualify in the eyes of your own master to
finish your apprenticeship, but what you did after that was just up to
the depths of your pocket. There wasn't (in many countries, at least)
any formal distinction between journeyman and master, other than their
employment.

In the UK today, you could join "The Guild of Master Craftsmen" who
have an awful reputation as an organisation for cowboy plumbers, with
no real oversight or quality standards.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

IIRC, John was at one time in charge of a big cabinet operation ... perhaps
that was his job title.

Hell, if an insurance company can call you a "Professional Insurance Claims
Expert", who's to say a cabinet company couldn't call their head man a
master cabinet maker?

In John's case the proof is in the pudding. Build a kitchen cabinet box
using his method and good materials and you have a stout, well made box that
will last a couple of lifetimes. Want to change the doors and drawer fronts
out a couple or three times in the next 10 to 20 years for a different look
and style? Go ahead, they will be as solid as the day they were installed
.... but don't try that with a lot of cabinets being put in homes today.

Not everyone needs that kind of craftsmanship, but those who appreciate the
difference, and build them like that, don't mind John taking the title.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some
form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master.

The same question was posed about 'Master Carpenter' Norm Abram. Who
ordained Norm a master carpenter??? Or was it just Master Craftsman???
Not to take anything away from Norm........

Bob S. wrote:

In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

Bob S.

In article m, "@sbc
(nospam)global.net" " says...
The same question was posed about 'Master Carpenter' Norm Abram. Who
ordained Norm a master carpenter??? Or was it just Master Craftsman???
Not to take anything away from Norm........


IIRC from several years ago, this was an appellation that Russ Morash
applied to Norm in order to make NYW more saleable. According to the
story I read, Norm did not really like the title.

Bob S. wrote:

In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

Bob S.

There was just an article in one of the woodworking magazines on the
same topic. There is no recognized group in the US that "officially"
bestows the title Master whatever woodworker.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:09:25 GMT, "Bob S." wrote:

In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

Bob S.

Well, in most states, you don't have to have a college degree, formal
training OR even be married to be a marriage counsler.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 02:43:14 GMT, "Swingman" wrote:

IIRC, John was at one time in charge of a big cabinet operation ... perhaps
that was his job title.

Hell, if an insurance company can call you a "Professional Insurance Claims
Expert", who's to say a cabinet company couldn't call their head man a
master cabinet maker?

In John's case the proof is in the pudding. Build a kitchen cabinet box
using his method and good materials and you have a stout, well made box that
will last a couple of lifetimes. Want to change the doors and drawer fronts
out a couple or three times in the next 10 to 20 years for a different look
and style? Go ahead, they will be as solid as the day they were installed
... but don't try that with a lot of cabinets being put in homes today.

Not everyone needs that kind of craftsmanship, but those who appreciate the
difference, and build them like that, don't mind John taking the title.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:23:04 -0700, George M. Kazaka wrote:
ROTFLMAO
It is Egotistically self applied and does not make him better than me.


Why am I now thinking of Mr. and Mrs. Bates, and their son, the young
Master?

Swingman,

You're reading something into my original post that wasn't there. I am not
attacking the author nor questioning his capabilities, simply used the
expression he stated and asked how it's achieved. Note I didn't use his
name since I'm not trying to discredit him in any manner.

After doing some searching (and prior to posting my question) I noted that
Frank Klaus, Thomas Nisbet, Edward Jorgensen, Kyle Kinser and others are
referenced as master cabinetmakers but no reference as to how they achieved
that status. Hence my question. Not a slam or a dig at the author but I
used it since it was a recent post and thought it would be fresh in
everyone's mind and thought it might be good to know how one gets to be a
master cabinetmaker. My initial thought was perhaps they studied in England
or France or somewhere they may have a recognized program that does bestow a
legitimate title because the title is achieved through mastering techniques
and being measured against specific criteria.

When someone states they're a professional of some sort or a master
whatever, then I tend to ask for credentials and look for supporting
evidence that they know what in the hell they're doing and can prove it in
some fashion. It may be through some accreditation program, years of
apprenticeship and self-study or even just day-to-day experience but can
show end results that exceed expectations.

So no matter how good John is or isn't, wasn't the issue.

Bob S.

"Swingman" wrote in message
news.com...
IIRC, John was at one time in charge of a big cabinet operation ...
perhaps
that was his job title.

Hell, if an insurance company can call you a "Professional Insurance
Claims
Expert", who's to say a cabinet company couldn't call their head man a
master cabinet maker?

In John's case the proof is in the pudding. Build a kitchen cabinet box
using his method and good materials and you have a stout, well made box
that
will last a couple of lifetimes. Want to change the doors and drawer
fronts
out a couple or three times in the next 10 to 20 years for a different
look
and style? Go ahead, they will be as solid as the day they were installed
... but don't try that with a lot of cabinets being put in homes today.

Not everyone needs that kind of craftsmanship, but those who appreciate
the
difference, and build them like that, don't mind John taking the title.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some
form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master.

"Bob S." writes:

[...]

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

In Germany there is such an organisation, the "Handwerkskammer", which
holds courses and takes the exams. To become a master cabinetmaker
("Schreinermeister") one has first to work several years as an
apprentice, take courses, take an exam and to build a "masterpiece".
Without the "Meisterbrief" (the formal diploma) you are not allowed to
work on your own in that profeosion; this ruling is a relic of the
medieval laws that were created to protect the members of the guilds.
Nowadays it is still held up by claiming it protects the customers
from bad work, especially in crafts like carpentry, plumbing or
electrical installation, but it also applies to crafts where a danger
from sloppy work is hard to imagine, like woodcarving or basket
weaving.

By the way, the courses neded for the "Meisterbrief" include some
economics, to make sure that one is able to have a sucessful workshop
afterwards.
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Thank you - that was interesting to know that. I've also read some about
Frank Klaus and it appears Hungary has a similar program.

Bob S.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:09:25 GMT, "Bob S." wrote:

In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

There is no legitimizing agency in the United States that confers the
title of "Master Cabinetmaker." If you can afford to have business
cards printed up with your name and "Master Cabinetmaker" linked to
it, no one can force you not to do so, regardless of your skill level.

The term is often self applied to indicate mastery of one's craft but
it has no basis in objective standards.

In days past it indicated the owner of the shop who employed
apprentices and journeyman level craftsmen and who was the "Master" of
his business in the way a ship's captain is "Master" of his ship.
(please don't turn this into a thread about marine licensing.)

The term "Master Carpenter", as used to describe Norm on TOH, is a
theatrical term meant to designate the lead carpenter in a theatrical
production and has the same descriptive function as terms like,
"Grip", "Key Grip", etc. In theatrical work he would be the "Master"
of the other carpenters involved in the production.


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

Lawrence A. Ramsey wrote:

Well, in most states, you don't have to have a college degree, formal
training OR even be married to be a marriage counsler.


And what I read somewhere a long time ago the best marriage councilors
are homosexual.

I guess that's understandable.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Easy. Call yourself one.
"Bob S." wrote in message
...
In another thread (Building Kitchen Cabinets), one post referenced a
particular author and web site. I viewed the sample the author provides
of
his book and in it, he states that he is a master cabinetmaker. I have no
argument with that but am wondering what organization in the US has the
right / authority to bestow the title of master cabinetmaker?

Would seem that to be called a master cabinetmaker, there must be some
form
of testing, certification or review by a recognized organization that
confirms your work meets the degree of craftsmanship required to be
considered a master. I can find numerous references to "master
cabinetmakers" but nothing on how that title is achieved.

Bob S.

Nope ... I was just remarking on what may well be someone's rationale for so
titling themselves.

It never crossed _my_ mind that you were "attacking" anyone ... perhaps the
feeling is coming from within? ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Bob S." wrote in message
Swingman,

You're reading something into my original post that wasn't there. I am
not
attacking the author nor questioning his capabilities, simply used the
expression he stated and asked how it's achieved. Note I didn't use his
name since I'm not trying to discredit him in any manner.

So no matter how good John is or isn't, wasn't the issue.