On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 00:44:21 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 12:55:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:25:50 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 09:25:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Michael wrote:

I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less
likely to strip?


Personally, I came to like the square drives because I found them to be far
superior to a philips drive, but since I went to star drives, I don't think
I'll ever go back unless the screw I need does not come in star. Just watch
your drive tips. They last a long time but at some point they will start to
round and you'll want to replace them. Like I say though - they will last a
long time.
By "star" I assume you mean Torx??? They are good, but they will
strip a lot easier than the square "robertson" Takes a lot to wear or
damage a robertson driver to the point it will slip.

I find exactly the opposite. Torx (star) are much better. I find the
screws aren't nearly precise enough for the Robertson (or "square head
recess") to work as well as it should.
I guess there is a difference between the generic "square-drive" now
being sold in the USA and the original Canadian Robertson (or Scrulox)
screws and screwdrivers. I know I've seen a lot af really crappy
square drive screwdrivers recently, and a lot of REALLY crappy screws
of all types with Chinese lettering on the boxes.. And the difference
between pozi-drive, Reed and Prince (aka Freerson), and Philips screws
and drivers causes a LOT of problems because they look so similar but
are virtually incompatible.

Oh, good grief!

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 01:47:10 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).

I don't get this. Why not push when removing?
Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...

Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.
True. But the point is you're better off using a screw head and bit
design that minimizes the amount of pushing required -- especially
when removing a screw since the pushing is forcing the screw in the
"wrong" direction.
Since the amount that you wish to raise the screw head with a twist of
the wrist is very, very, small, I think the
effect you describe may be negligible. Of course, the wider the
threads, the greater the effect. I could probably
design a screw that would be difficult to unscrew by pushing down on
it! ; )

It's not. Friction is proportional to the normal force applied, so
force applied to the head of the screw does increase the friction of
the screw threads against the material.

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 23:12:41 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/1/2014 10:33 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 21:15:10 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).


I don't get this. Why not push when removing?

Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...


Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.

That doesn't mean pushing down is making it easier (than it would be
were a different head chosen up-front).


In a perfect world. . .

We were talking about screw selection. In my world, I choose what
screws I use. If I didn't build the deck, chances are it's a total
loss because the fasteners aren't coming out.

If you are removing screws above you, you can defy gravity and push "up"
to get the screws out.

Please.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 00:55:33 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 22:33:16 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 21:15:10 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).


I don't get this. Why not push when removing?

Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...


Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.

That doesn't mean pushing down is making it easier (than it would be
were a different head chosen up-front).


Anyone with a torque screw driver want to do a test? Drive several
identical screws into severel peices of different woods then read the
torque required to remove them with no downward force, and with , say,
5, 10, and 15 lbs of force pressing on the screw and tabulate the
results? In both hard wood and soft wood - and using both steel and
brass screws.
I'd be willing to bet the difference in torque required would be
within the limits of the torque required to lift the downward force
treating the screw as a simple inclined plane. (in other words,
insignificant).

Your test is silly beyond belief. Now try it with screws that have
weathered for a decade.

On Friday, August 1, 2014 8:12:41 PM UTC-7, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In a perfect world. . .

If you are removing screws above you, you can defy gravity and push "up"
to get the screws out.

Yeah, there IS a screw head design that allows you to pull. The
screw has a dovetail slot, curved so the driver can be positioned
at one edge and rocked into the slot. This scheme is not
compatible with magnet-held hex shank bits.

wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 01:47:10 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).

I don't get this. Why not push when removing?
Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...

Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.
True. But the point is you're better off using a screw head and bit
design that minimizes the amount of pushing required -- especially
when removing a screw since the pushing is forcing the screw in the
"wrong" direction.
Since the amount that you wish to raise the screw head with a twist of
the wrist is very, very, small, I think the
effect you describe may be negligible. Of course, the wider the
threads, the greater the effect. I could probably
design a screw that would be difficult to unscrew by pushing down on
it! ; )

It's not. Friction is proportional to the normal force applied, so
force applied to the head of the screw does increase the friction of
the screw threads against the material.
I agree with you. I think there are several factors at play here.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 12:14:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 01:47:10 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).

I don't get this. Why not push when removing?
Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...

Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.
True. But the point is you're better off using a screw head and bit
design that minimizes the amount of pushing required -- especially
when removing a screw since the pushing is forcing the screw in the
"wrong" direction.
Since the amount that you wish to raise the screw head with a twist of
the wrist is very, very, small, I think the
effect you describe may be negligible. Of course, the wider the
threads, the greater the effect. I could probably
design a screw that would be difficult to unscrew by pushing down on
it! ; )

It's not. Friction is proportional to the normal force applied, so
force applied to the head of the screw does increase the friction of
the screw threads against the material.

Except, particularly in a woodscrew (and this IS a woodworking group)
the pressure applied against the threads of the screw by the
compression of the wood fibers is SO much more than the pressure you
are applying to hold the screwdriver in, that the pressure you are
applying is totally insignificant.
And in th case of a machine screw, the pressure applied to the surface
by the head due to the torque of the screw, and it's torsional stress,
again makes ANY pressure you are going to apply TOTALLY irrelevent.
The friction on the upper surface of the thread due to the installed
tension will be 10 or more times what the friction on the bottom of
the screw thread would be from the pressure you apply.

In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well known,
shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.

Again - I say "red herring"

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 12:18:42 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 00:55:33 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 22:33:16 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 21:15:10 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).


I don't get this. Why not push when removing?

Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...


Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.

That doesn't mean pushing down is making it easier (than it would be
were a different head chosen up-front).


Anyone with a torque screw driver want to do a test? Drive several
identical screws into severel peices of different woods then read the
torque required to remove them with no downward force, and with , say,
5, 10, and 15 lbs of force pressing on the screw and tabulate the
results? In both hard wood and soft wood - and using both steel and
brass screws.
I'd be willing to bet the difference in torque required would be
within the limits of the torque required to lift the downward force
treating the screw as a simple inclined plane. (in other words,
insignificant).

Your test is silly beyond belief. Now try it with screws that have
weathered for a decade.
Not nearly as "beyond belief" as thinking the pressure you apply to
the head of a screw to keep the driver engaged is going to increase
the torque required to remove screws that have weathered a decade due
to increased friction in the threads!!!!

You really do not have a CLUE.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 16:18:55 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 12:14:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 01:47:10 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).

I don't get this. Why not push when removing?
Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...

Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.
True. But the point is you're better off using a screw head and bit
design that minimizes the amount of pushing required -- especially
when removing a screw since the pushing is forcing the screw in the
"wrong" direction.
Since the amount that you wish to raise the screw head with a twist of
the wrist is very, very, small, I think the
effect you describe may be negligible. Of course, the wider the
threads, the greater the effect. I could probably
design a screw that would be difficult to unscrew by pushing down on
it! ; )

It's not. Friction is proportional to the normal force applied, so
force applied to the head of the screw does increase the friction of
the screw threads against the material.

Except, particularly in a woodscrew (and this IS a woodworking group)
the pressure applied against the threads of the screw by the
compression of the wood fibers is SO much more than the pressure you
are applying to hold the screwdriver in, that the pressure you are
applying is totally insignificant.

If that were true, very little torque would be necessary to remove
them.

And in th case of a machine screw, the pressure applied to the surface
by the head due to the torque of the screw, and it's torsional stress,

Exactly what is "tortional stress" and how does "stress" relate to the
amount of torque it requires to remove a screw? I've never seen that
one in a physics book.

again makes ANY pressure you are going to apply TOTALLY irrelevent.
The friction on the upper surface of the thread due to the installed
tension will be 10 or more times what the friction on the bottom of
the screw thread would be from the pressure you apply.

Wrong. The friction on the threads is quite relevant.

In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well known,
shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.

No, that is NOT how screw removers work.

Again - I say "red herring"

I say you're throwing bull**** to see what sticks.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 16:22:06 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 12:18:42 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 00:55:33 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 22:33:16 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 21:15:10 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).


I don't get this. Why not push when removing?

Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...


Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.

That doesn't mean pushing down is making it easier (than it would be
were a different head chosen up-front).


Anyone with a torque screw driver want to do a test? Drive several
identical screws into severel peices of different woods then read the
torque required to remove them with no downward force, and with , say,
5, 10, and 15 lbs of force pressing on the screw and tabulate the
results? In both hard wood and soft wood - and using both steel and
brass screws.
I'd be willing to bet the difference in torque required would be
within the limits of the torque required to lift the downward force
treating the screw as a simple inclined plane. (in other words,
insignificant).

Your test is silly beyond belief. Now try it with screws that have
weathered for a decade.
Not nearly as "beyond belief" as thinking the pressure you apply to
the head of a screw to keep the driver engaged is going to increase
the torque required to remove screws that have weathered a decade due
to increased friction in the threads!!!!

Sorry, but physics being what it is, friction matters.

You really do not have a CLUE.

Come on, throw some more bull**** when you're called on it.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 18:35:05 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 16:18:55 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 12:14:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 01:47:10 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).

I don't get this. Why not push when removing?
Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...

Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.
True. But the point is you're better off using a screw head and bit
design that minimizes the amount of pushing required -- especially
when removing a screw since the pushing is forcing the screw in the
"wrong" direction.
Since the amount that you wish to raise the screw head with a twist of
the wrist is very, very, small, I think the
effect you describe may be negligible. Of course, the wider the
threads, the greater the effect. I could probably
design a screw that would be difficult to unscrew by pushing down on
it! ; )

It's not. Friction is proportional to the normal force applied, so
force applied to the head of the screw does increase the friction of
the screw threads against the material.

Except, particularly in a woodscrew (and this IS a woodworking group)
the pressure applied against the threads of the screw by the
compression of the wood fibers is SO much more than the pressure you
are applying to hold the screwdriver in, that the pressure you are
applying is totally insignificant.

If that were true, very little torque would be necessary to remove
them.
Pardon? The friction provided by the wood gripping the screw is what
makes a screw difficult to remove. The friction between the wood and
the threads, plus the friction between the wood and the shank.. If
anything, putting pressure on the screw would DECREASE the friction on
the top of the threads while increasing the friction on the bottom -
either netting out or reducing the total friction on the screw - so
either keepi ng the required torque the same or less. Certainly no
great increase in required torque.

And in th case of a machine screw, the pressure applied to the surface
by the head due to the torque of the screw, and it's torsional stress,

Exactly what is "tortional stress" and how does "stress" relate to the
amount of torque it requires to remove a screw? I've never seen that
one in a physics book.
OK - I'm not a physics major - just a dumb mechanic. The tension load
placed on the screw by virtue of the torque applied to the fastener
puts very high pressure on the interface between the head of the
fastener and the surface of the material being bolted together. The
pressure can be in the hundreds of lbs. The break-away torque required
to overcome the stiction between the screw head and the bolted
material is often significantly more than the torque required to
continue turning the fastener after it is broken loose. The force
required to overcome the "static friction" in the threads - breaking
the bonds of rust and corrosion, is also quite substantial. So is the
"running friction" between a corroded fastener and the internal
threads of the material being fastened, or the nut. So substantial as
to render the incredibly small amount of extra friction caused by even
40 lbs of pressure applied to the screwdriver to keep the driver in
the head of the screw almost totally incosequential.
again makes ANY pressure you are going to apply TOTALLY irrelevent.
The friction on the upper surface of the thread due to the installed
tension will be 10 or more times what the friction on the bottom of
the screw thread would be from the pressure you apply.

Wrong. The friction on the threads is quite relevant.

Again - you are not reading what was said very well for a PHD in
Physics (or someone who plays one on TV) Nowhere did I say the
friction on the threads is irrelevant. I said your contribution to the
friction on the threads is totally irrelevent. Your effect on the
universe is greatly overestimated.

In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well known,
shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.

No, that is NOT how screw removers work.
Who said anything about "screw removers" by which I assume you are
referring to "impact drivers" which you hit with a hammer, causing a
cam to rotate the fastener. I'm talking about beating the bejeapers
out of the head of a bolt while pulling on a wrench to break free a
seized bolt. It is a VERY effective method of breaking loose large
threaded fasteners in old equipment.

Again - I say "red herring"

I say you're throwing bull**** to see what sticks.
Nope. I have removed thousands of stubborn fasteners from old
equipment over the last 50 years. Some of them litterally seized by
"bull****" which can REALLY make things stick. Ever try removing bolts
from the apron chain of an old ****-spreader????

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 18:36:24 -0400, wrote:


Come on, throw some more bull**** when you're called on it.
The bull**** is all going one way - and you are not the recipient.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 20:36:52 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 18:36:24 -0400, wrote:


Come on, throw some more bull**** when you're called on it.
The bull**** is all going one way - and you are not the recipient.

Keep spreading it. You're good.

On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 05:07:58 +0000 (UTC), Baxter
wrote:

wrote in :

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 16:18:55 -0400, wrote:

Wrong. The friction on the threads is quite relevant.

In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well known,
shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.

No, that is NOT how screw removers work.

That device is not what is termed a "screw remover". I have to side with
clare on this one - I have such a device in my toolbox - albeit for metal
and not wood, but the principle is the same: you insert the tool into the
screw head, apply torque, then hit the end with a hammer. The tool has a
heavy spring inside and a spiral mechanism - when you hit it with a hammer,
it applies more torque than you can apply with your hands - plus vibration,
etc.

This sounds like an impact wrench. The impact of the hammer is
converted to torque. There is some advantage hammering to break
metal-metal binding (essentially a "weld") but you're applying torque
constantly. The impact only increases friction for the milliseconds
of the impact. Sorry, physics doesn't care about consensus.

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 11:22:11 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 05:07:58 +0000 (UTC), Baxter
wrote:

wrote in :

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 16:18:55 -0400, wrote:

Wrong. The friction on the threads is quite relevant.

In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well known,
shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.

No, that is NOT how screw removers work.

That device is not what is termed a "screw remover". I have to side with
clare on this one - I have such a device in my toolbox - albeit for metal
and not wood, but the principle is the same: you insert the tool into the
screw head, apply torque, then hit the end with a hammer. The tool has a
heavy spring inside and a spiral mechanism - when you hit it with a hammer,
it applies more torque than you can apply with your hands - plus vibration,
etc.

This sounds like an impact wrench. The impact of the hammer is
converted to torque. There is some advantage hammering to break
metal-metal binding (essentially a "weld") but you're applying torque
constantly. The impact only increases friction for the milliseconds
of the impact. Sorry, physics doesn't care about consensus.

And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts?? Your physics theory won't
remove them. And I can guarantee you would not be able to measure the
amount of extra torque required to remove a stuck bolt due to the
extra friction (if any) caused by pushing on the screwdriver to hold
the bit in the head without extremely accurate lab measurement
equipment.(and a good dose of imagination)

And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS

JAS wrote:
And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that
belongs to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third
one will not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had
rounded the bolt before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on
it will not grab good enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what
next, maybe heat. I am afraid it will break and then the mower will
be toast, it is an old John Deere her husband had before passing
away. Any ideas?

Ugh! been there done that. You're kinda screwed at this point so why not
go for broke? I'd put heat to it but as always with heat - pay attention
and don't just put a ton of heat on there that you really don't need. Is it
a bolt or a nut? If it's a nut, then heat just the nut to the point that
it's wanting to turn red. Then get on it with your gun or your wrench.
Or... with your wench... If it's a bolt then, be careful - you just don't
have a lot of structural material to work with there. Heat up the head of
the bolt to red hot and hope you achieve enough heat transfer to allow you
to back it out. You can try products like breakfree or pb blaster - and they
do work - just not all the time. It's kind of hit and miss with those.

--

-Mike-

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:22:59 -0600, JAS
wrote:



And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS

Heat and then cool with WD40

On 8/3/2014 4:19 PM, Baxter wrote:
wrote in :

On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 05:07:58 +0000 (UTC), Baxter
wrote:

wrote in
:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 16:18:55 -0400, wrote:

Wrong. The friction on the threads is quite relevant.

In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well
known, shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.

No, that is NOT how screw removers work.

That device is not what is termed a "screw remover". I have to side
with clare on this one - I have such a device in my toolbox - albeit
for metal and not wood, but the principle is the same: you insert the
tool into the screw head, apply torque, then hit the end with a
hammer. The tool has a heavy spring inside and a spiral mechanism -
when you hit it with a hammer, it applies more torque than you can
apply with your hands - plus vibration, etc.

This sounds like an impact wrench. The impact of the hammer is
converted to torque. There is some advantage hammering to break
metal-metal binding (essentially a "weld") but you're applying torque
constantly. The impact only increases friction for the milliseconds
of the impact. Sorry, physics doesn't care about consensus.

Well, "impact driver" - http://tinyurl.com/l3r9abp

Given subsequent posts to the one I responded to, I have no idea what
either party is really talking about. My post here may or may not have
any applicability.




LOL. Yes your reference is certainly an impact driver and it does, with
a blow of a hammer, exert a forward and a twisting force to loosen or
tighten a screw.

Below is probably the other style being talked about that most of
today's wood workers are more familiar with. And these too do a good
good at removing compromised screw heads. I remodeled a kitchen some
years back and the owners thought it would be a good idea to fill the
screw heads with a hard wood putty. My Makita impact worked very well
with getting the screws out despite the fact that the heads were filled.

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-LXDT04C...act+driver+kit

On 8/3/2014 9:22 PM, JAS wrote:


And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS



3 blades? Do they all turn in the same direction? If any spin in the
opposite direction the bolt will also for loosening or tightening.''Look
at how the belts wind around the pulleys.

On 8/4/2014 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/3/2014 9:22 PM, JAS wrote:


And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS



3 blades? Do they all turn in the same direction? If any spin in the
opposite direction the bolt will also for loosening or tightening.''Look
at how the belts wind around the pulleys.


Should have mentioned that If a blade turns in an opposite direction the
bolt will loosen in the same opposite direction. Retaining bolts and
nuts loosen in the same direction that the object spins with few
exceptions. Automotive wheels being an exception unless you look at
some old Chrysler products.

JAS wrote in :

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS

Sometimes the best option is to give up. If the blade isn't bent or
otherwise damaged, it may have to be treated as a permanent part of the
mower.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Is it
a bolt or a nut? If it's a nut, then heat just the nut to the point that
it's wanting to turn red. Then get on it with your gun or your wrench.
Or... with your wench... If it's a bolt then, be careful - you just don't
have a lot of structural material to work with there. Heat up the head of
the bolt to red hot and hope you achieve enough heat transfer to allow you
to back it out. You can try products like breakfree or pb blaster - and they
do work - just not all the time. It's kind of hit and miss with those.

It,s a bolt holding the blade to the spindle and have to work over head
so no chance to spray WD40 into threads.

Leon wrote:



3 blades? Do they all turn in the same direction? If any spin in the
opposite direction the bolt will also for loosening or tightening.''Look
at how the belts wind around the pulleys.

Same direction.

Sometimes the best option is to give up. If the blade isn't bent or
otherwise damaged, it may have to be treated as a permanent part of the
mower.

Puckdropper

The blade is worn and chipped on the ends as she said she hit a rock.

JAS wrote in :



Sometimes the best option is to give up. If the blade isn't bent or
otherwise damaged, it may have to be treated as a permanent part of
the mower.

Puckdropper

The blade is worn and chipped on the ends as she said she hit a rock.


If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas come to
mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.

The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end. Repeated
blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free things up.
Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This could be
dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.

Another is to attach the blade to a lever. I once used carriage bolts
drilled through a 2x4 to make a rebar bender, and something similar may
work here. The minimum is two carriage bolts, one on either side of the
blade, but a third one with a large washer to clamp the lever to the
blade will probably be easier to use. (I find when working under my
mower the hardest part is keeping the tool in place against gravity.)
This will probably have the same spindle movement problem of the first
idea.

Have you priced out replacement spindles?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:22:59 -0600, JAS
wrote:



And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS
Heat the head of the bolt red hot, and smack it good with a hammer.
Heat it red hot again and quench it with lots of cold water. Then use
a "stripped head bolt remover" socket. If that doesn'r work have
someone arc weld a big nut on the end of the bolt (weld to the head
through the threaded hole of the big nut) and spin it off with the
impact.

On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 23:32:19 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

JAS wrote:
And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that
belongs to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third
one will not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had
rounded the bolt before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on
it will not grab good enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what
next, maybe heat. I am afraid it will break and then the mower will
be toast, it is an old John Deere her husband had before passing
away. Any ideas?

Ugh! been there done that. You're kinda screwed at this point so why not
go for broke? I'd put heat to it but as always with heat - pay attention
and don't just put a ton of heat on there that you really don't need. Is it
a bolt or a nut? If it's a nut, then heat just the nut to the point that
it's wanting to turn red. Then get on it with your gun or your wrench.
Or... with your wench... If it's a bolt then, be careful - you just don't
have a lot of structural material to work with there. Heat up the head of
the bolt to red hot and hope you achieve enough heat transfer to allow you
to back it out. You can try products like breakfree or pb blaster - and they
do work - just not all the time. It's kind of hit and miss with those.
Water often works every bit as well as the penetrant. Quenching with
water shocks the rust criystals and makes them real fine - and water
mixed with the ultrafine rust actually acts as a lubricant. Oil based
penetrants have a tendancy to just boil off or burn when you squirt
them on something red hot, and water removes more heat faster.

On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 07:07:23 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:22:59 -0600, JAS
wrote:



And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS

Heat and then cool with WD40
Heat then quench with garden hose.

On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 08:31:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/4/2014 8:25 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/3/2014 9:22 PM, JAS wrote:


And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS



3 blades? Do they all turn in the same direction? If any spin in the
opposite direction the bolt will also for loosening or tightening.''Look
at how the belts wind around the pulleys.


Should have mentioned that If a blade turns in an opposite direction the
bolt will loosen in the same opposite direction. Retaining bolts and
nuts loosen in the same direction that the object spins with few
exceptions. Automotive wheels being an exception unless you look at
some old Chrysler products.
And old Oldsmobiles, and old Hudsons, and some old British cars, and
--------

Puckdropper wrote:
JAS wrote in :



Sometimes the best option is to give up. If the blade isn't bent or
otherwise damaged, it may have to be treated as a permanent part of
the mower.

Puckdropper

The blade is worn and chipped on the ends as she said she hit a rock.


If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas come to
mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.

The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end. Repeated
blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free things up.
Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This could be
dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.

Another is to attach the blade to a lever. I once used carriage bolts
drilled through a 2x4 to make a rebar bender, and something similar may
work here. The minimum is two carriage bolts, one on either side of the
blade, but a third one with a large washer to clamp the lever to the
blade will probably be easier to use. (I find when working under my
mower the hardest part is keeping the tool in place against gravity.)
This will probably have the same spindle movement problem of the first
idea.

Have you priced out replacement spindles?

Puckdropper

Will try the heat and hitting the blade also==I do have a problem
holding the tools up wile lying under the mower as I have had shoulder
surgery and do not have much strength there. If that dose not work I
will have her take it to a repair shop and get a nut welded on and have
them work on it. I doubt if a replacement spindle is available as it is
a 50's or 60's model.
JAS

Puckdropper wrote:
JAS wrote in
:

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that
belongs to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third
one will not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had
rounded the bolt before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on
it will not grab good enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what
next, maybe heat. I am afraid it will break and then the mower will
be toast, it is an old John Deere her husband had before passing
away. Any ideas?

JAS

Sometimes the best option is to give up. If the blade isn't bent or
otherwise damaged, it may have to be treated as a permanent part of
the mower.



I'm not aware of any mower deck that was manufactured as a permanent part.
But - ya do learn something new every day...

--

-Mike-

Puckdropper wrote:

If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas come
to mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.

The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end.
Repeated blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free things
up. Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This could be
dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.

NO! You'll screw up the bearings in the quill for sure by doing this.


Another is to attach the blade to a lever. I once used carriage bolts
drilled through a 2x4 to make a rebar bender, and something similar
may work here. The minimum is two carriage bolts, one on either side
of the blade, but a third one with a large washer to clamp the lever
to the blade will probably be easier to use. (I find when working
under my mower the hardest part is keeping the tool in place against
gravity.) This will probably have the same spindle movement problem
of the first idea.

Have you priced out replacement spindles?


An impact gun will remove this nut as simple as pie. Just need a big enough
impact gun - not your basic 18v gun.

--

-Mike-

On 8/4/2014 4:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Puckdropper wrote:
JAS wrote in
:

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that
belongs to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third
one will not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had
rounded the bolt before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on
it will not grab good enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what
next, maybe heat. I am afraid it will break and then the mower will
be toast, it is an old John Deere her husband had before passing
away. Any ideas?

JAS

Sometimes the best option is to give up. If the blade isn't bent or
otherwise damaged, it may have to be treated as a permanent part of
the mower.



I'm not aware of any mower deck that was manufactured as a permanent part.
But - ya do learn something new every day...



Not was manufactured as a permanent part but "may have to be treated as
a permanent part" If you cant get it off.

JAS wrote:

Will try the heat and hitting the blade also==I do have a problem
holding the tools up wile lying under the mower as I have had shoulder
surgery and do not have much strength there. If that dose not work I
will have her take it to a repair shop and get a nut welded on and
have them work on it. I doubt if a replacement spindle is available
as it is a 50's or 60's model.
JAS


Better be real careful with that heat. You have seals and bearings in
there. Just put an air impact on it and hold the blade in your hand while
you hit it with the gun. This is getting way more complicated than it needs
to be.

Spindles are very likely to be available - look on the internet. And -
ferchristssake - don't try to do this underneath of the damned deck. Are
you trying to be dumb here? Pull the damned deck out and flip it over. The
way you're heading you're assuring yourself of a complete and dismal
failure. Sheese - just pull the deck and put a damned air gun on it.

--

-Mike-


--

-Mike-

JAS wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Is it
a bolt or a nut? If it's a nut, then heat just the nut to the point
that it's wanting to turn red. Then get on it with your gun or your
wrench. Or... with your wench... If it's a bolt then, be careful -
you just don't have a lot of structural material to work with there.
Heat up the head of the bolt to red hot and hope you achieve enough
heat transfer to allow you to back it out. You can try products like
breakfree or pb blaster - and they do work - just not all the time.
It's kind of hit and miss with those.

It,s a bolt holding the blade to the spindle and have to work over
head so no chance to spray WD40 into threads.

See my other post to your "overhead" issue. Just pull the deck. Or lay it
over. Working overhead like you seem to be describing (unless I'm getting
it wrong...) is just dumb.

--

-Mike-

On 8/4/2014 4:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Puckdropper wrote:

If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas come
to mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.

The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end.
Repeated blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free things
up. Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This could be
dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.

NO! You'll screw up the bearings in the quill for sure by doing this.

Quill? :~)






Another is to attach the blade to a lever. I once used carriage bolts
drilled through a 2x4 to make a rebar bender, and something similar
may work here. The minimum is two carriage bolts, one on either side
of the blade, but a third one with a large washer to clamp the lever
to the blade will probably be easier to use. (I find when working
under my mower the hardest part is keeping the tool in place against
gravity.) This will probably have the same spindle movement problem
of the first idea.

Have you priced out replacement spindles?


An impact gun will remove this nut as simple as pie. Just need a big enough
impact gun - not your basic 18v gun.

wrote:

Heat the head of the bolt red hot, and smack it good with a hammer.
Heat it red hot again and quench it with lots of cold water. Then use
a "stripped head bolt remover" socket. If that doesn'r work have
someone arc weld a big nut on the end of the bolt (weld to the head
through the threaded hole of the big nut) and spin it off with the
impact.

Argh! I have to eat some of my own words from posts within the past five
minutes. As I had also said the other day - yes diligently applied heat to
the head of the bolt can indeed work. But - careful and only enough to get
the bolt head itself red - or nearly red. Then... just reach up in there
with your fingers - it should come out rather easily...

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:
On 8/4/2014 4:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Puckdropper wrote:

If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas
come to mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.

The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end.
Repeated blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free
things up. Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This
could be dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.

NO! You'll screw up the bearings in the quill for sure by doing
this.

Quill? :~)


Some manufacturers refer to the tower assembly that contains the bearings
and that the shaft fits through, as the quill. don't ask me why...]
--

-Mike-

On 8/4/2014 4:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
JAS wrote:

Will try the heat and hitting the blade also==I do have a problem
holding the tools up wile lying under the mower as I have had shoulder
surgery and do not have much strength there. If that dose not work I
will have her take it to a repair shop and get a nut welded on and
have them work on it. I doubt if a replacement spindle is available
as it is a 50's or 60's model.
JAS


Better be real careful with that heat. You have seals and bearings in
there. Just put an air impact on it and hold the blade in your hand while
you hit it with the gun. This is getting way more complicated than it needs
to be.

Spindles are very likely to be available - look on the internet. And -
ferchristssake - don't try to do this underneath of the damned deck. Are
you trying to be dumb here? Pull the damned deck out and flip it over. The
way you're heading you're assuring yourself of a complete and dismal
failure. Sheese - just pull the deck and put a damned air gun on it.


Mike, do you think he should maybe use an air impact? ;~)

I recall using 1" drive impacts years ago, we used them regularly in a
tire store that I worked in, that easily removed the big rig lug nuts.
And we used one to remove the nut Bush Hog blade, 2" nut IIRC.