Against advice from several people here, I decided to go with dowels to
attach the (many) "rungs" on the sides of my cookbook shelves.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490
(the drawing)

After turning the idea around in my head during the workweek, I modified
my jig a bit. It worked very well. I drilled all of the holes (32 rungs
x 4 holes) in about a half hour. This video (prettied up a little,
courtesy of my daughter) shows me finishing one piece in a little under
a minute:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

That was actually the first attempt; I got a little quicker at it after
some practice.

I had originally considered flipping the piece over end over end rather
than rotating it; I could have used the same "fence" for both ends of
the piece that way. But there would be a problem if the holes weren't
precisely centered vertically. I figured they wouldn't be, so I needed a
new strategy.

I decided to use two fences, one for drilling each end of the rungs.
That way I could keep the same reference face. I decided it didn't
matter if the holes were centered horizontally, which allowed me to use
the edges of the drill guide as reference points.

As I started each new piece, I chose the "better" face and faced it
downwards. I did the same with the stiles that mate with the rungs. That
way the more visible face of each ladder should be well aligned. As it
turned out, the alignment seems pretty good even on the other side.

I shot a quick video of how I drilled the holes in the stiles, but my
editing staff has gone out for the afternoon. You'll have to wait. In
short, I remade the jig to drill into the edge of the long pieces rather
than the ends.




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On Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:19:22 PM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
Against advice from several people here, I decided to go with dowels to

attach the (many) "rungs" on the sides of my cookbook shelves.



https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

(the drawing)



After turning the idea around in my head during the workweek, I modified

my jig a bit. It worked very well. I drilled all of the holes (32 rungs

x 4 holes) in about a half hour. This video (prettied up a little,

courtesy of my daughter) shows me finishing one piece in a little under

a minute:



https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490



That was actually the first attempt; I got a little quicker at it after

some practice.



I had originally considered flipping the piece over end over end rather

than rotating it; I could have used the same "fence" for both ends of

the piece that way. But there would be a problem if the holes weren't

precisely centered vertically. I figured they wouldn't be, so I needed a

new strategy.



I decided to use two fences, one for drilling each end of the rungs.

That way I could keep the same reference face. I decided it didn't

matter if the holes were centered horizontally, which allowed me to use

the edges of the drill guide as reference points.



As I started each new piece, I chose the "better" face and faced it

downwards. I did the same with the stiles that mate with the rungs. That

way the more visible face of each ladder should be well aligned. As it

turned out, the alignment seems pretty good even on the other side.



I shot a quick video of how I drilled the holes in the stiles, but my

editing staff has gone out for the afternoon. You'll have to wait. In

short, I remade the jig to drill into the edge of the long pieces rather

than the ends.









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I'm really curious to see how you will match up the holes on your slats with the sides of your shelf unit.

On 5/24/2014 5:56 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm really curious to see how you will match up the holes on your slats with the sides of your shelf unit.

If you mean you are curious to see *if* they actually mate up; I was
curious too. Hopeful, but curious.

It turned out to be a good fit. The dowel joints feel nice and snug;
snug enough that - after I tested a couple of the joints with all of
the dowels - I only put in one dowel on each end of each "rung" for the
full dry fit:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14257885501/

I was afraid I might have too much trouble getting the parts apart
otherwise.

But if you mean how am I going to attach the "ladders" to the front and
back "frames", my current plan is biscuits.



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On Saturday, May 24, 2014 5:21:23 PM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 5/24/2014 5:56 PM, Michael wrote:

I'm really curious to see how you will match up the holes on your slats with the sides of your shelf unit.



If you mean you are curious to see *if* they actually mate up; I was

curious too. Hopeful, but curious.



It turned out to be a good fit. The dowel joints feel nice and snug;

snug enough that - after I tested a couple of the joints with all of

the dowels - I only put in one dowel on each end of each "rung" for the

full dry fit:



https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14257885501/



I was afraid I might have too much trouble getting the parts apart

otherwise.



But if you mean how am I going to attach the "ladders" to the front and

back "frames", my current plan is biscuits.







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Yeah, that look great!

On 5/24/2014 5:45 PM, Michael wrote:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 5:21:23 PM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 5/24/2014 5:56 PM, Michael wrote:

I'm really curious to see how you will match up the holes on your slats with the sides of your shelf unit.



If you mean you are curious to see *if* they actually mate up; I was

curious too. Hopeful, but curious.



It turned out to be a good fit. The dowel joints feel nice and snug;

snug enough that - after I tested a couple of the joints with all of

the dowels - I only put in one dowel on each end of each "rung" for the

full dry fit:



https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14257885501/



I was afraid I might have too much trouble getting the parts apart

otherwise.



But if you mean how am I going to attach the "ladders" to the front and

back "frames", my current plan is biscuits.







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Yeah, that look great!


And while this is a bit crude as opposed to using a jig, these work
pretty well.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...FY3m7AodVhoAjA

On Sat, 24 May 2014 14:56:46 -0700, Michael wrote:

I'm really curious to see how you will match up the holes on your slats
with the sides of your shelf unit.

Michael, it would be appreciated if you could trim your quote before
replying. You quoted 88 lines to give a 2 line response.

Just in case you're new at this, most news readers will let you highlight
some of a message and then click reply, giving you a reply window with
only the highlighted text quoted.

And I'll probably get 10 responses saying I shouldn't be critical, so
I'll answer in advance. We all started out knowing little or nothing
about netiquette. If someone hadn't told us what we were doing wrong, we
never would have learned.

On 5/24/2014 7:20 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/24/2014 5:45 PM, Michael wrote:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 5:21:23 PM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 5/24/2014 5:56 PM, Michael wrote:

I'm really curious to see how you will match up the holes on your
slats with the sides of your shelf unit.



If you mean you are curious to see *if* they actually mate up; I was

curious too. Hopeful, but curious.



It turned out to be a good fit. The dowel joints feel nice and snug;

snug enough that - after I tested a couple of the joints with all of

the dowels - I only put in one dowel on each end of each "rung" for the
full dry fit:



https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14257885501/

I was afraid I might have too much trouble getting the parts apart
otherwise.

But if you mean how am I going to attach the "ladders" to the front and
back "frames", my current plan is biscuits.


Yeah, that look great!


And while this is a bit crude as opposed to using a jig, these work
pretty well.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...FY3m7AodVhoAjA

I have some of those, but I had 256 holes to drill so...

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On 5/24/2014 6:45 PM, Michael wrote:
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 5:21:23 PM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 5/24/2014 5:56 PM, Michael wrote:

I'm really curious to see how you will match up the holes on your slats with the sides of your shelf unit.



If you mean you are curious to see *if* they actually mate up; I was

curious too. Hopeful, but curious.



It turned out to be a good fit. The dowel joints feel nice and snug;

snug enough that - after I tested a couple of the joints with all of

the dowels - I only put in one dowel on each end of each "rung" for the

full dry fit:



https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14257885501/



I was afraid I might have too much trouble getting the parts apart

otherwise.



But if you mean how am I going to attach the "ladders" to the front and

back "frames", my current plan is biscuits.







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Yeah, that look great!

Thanks. Lots more left to do though.

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Leon wrote:


And while this is a bit crude as opposed to using a jig, these work
pretty well.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...FY3m7AodVhoAjA

I will second that. I have a simple set that I bought years ago and didn't
even use for a lot of years. Finally gave them a try and shoot man - they
work! I don't do a lot of doweling, but when I do - I turn to these guys.

--

-Mike-

On 5/24/2014 3:19 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Against advice from several people here, I decided to go with dowels to
attach the (many) "rungs" on the sides of my cookbook shelves.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

(the drawing)

After turning the idea around in my head during the workweek, I modified
my jig a bit. It worked very well. I drilled all of the holes (32 rungs
x 4 holes) in about a half hour. This video (prettied up a little,
courtesy of my daughter) shows me finishing one piece in a little under
a minute:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490


That was actually the first attempt; I got a little quicker at it after
some practice.

I had originally considered flipping the piece over end over end rather
than rotating it; I could have used the same "fence" for both ends of
the piece that way. But there would be a problem if the holes weren't
precisely centered vertically. I figured they wouldn't be, so I needed a
new strategy.

I decided to use two fences, one for drilling each end of the rungs.
That way I could keep the same reference face. I decided it didn't
matter if the holes were centered horizontally, which allowed me to use
the edges of the drill guide as reference points.

As I started each new piece, I chose the "better" face and faced it
downwards. I did the same with the stiles that mate with the rungs. That
way the more visible face of each ladder should be well aligned. As it
turned out, the alignment seems pretty good even on the other side.

I shot a quick video of how I drilled the holes in the stiles, but my
editing staff has gone out for the afternoon. You'll have to wait. In
short, I remade the jig to drill into the edge of the long pieces rather
than the ends.




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One piece of advice.
Once you are done drilling the hole.. back the drill out while running.
But don't keep it running at the bottom of the hole.

Any tool used to cut, should cut .. not sit there. when you sit at the
bottom, you heat the bit up, you polish the fibers (burn) which prevents
great glue adhesion, it diminishes the glue adhesion.




--
Jeff

Larry Blanchard wrote:


And I'll probably get 10 responses saying I shouldn't be critical, so
I'll answer in advance. We all started out knowing little or nothing
about netiquette. If someone hadn't told us what we were doing
wrong, we never would have learned.

Ok Larry - if you insist... you shouldn't be so critical...

--

-Mike-

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message ...

Against advice from several people here, I decided to go with dowels to
attach the (many) "rungs" on the sides of my cookbook shelves.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490
(the drawing)

After turning the idea around in my head during the workweek, I modified
my jig a bit. It worked very well. I drilled all of the holes (32 rungs
x 4 holes) in about a half hour. This video (prettied up a little,
courtesy of my daughter) shows me finishing one piece in a little under
a minute:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

That was actually the first attempt; I got a little quicker at it after
some practice.

I had originally considered flipping the piece over end over end rather
than rotating it; I could have used the same "fence" for both ends of
the piece that way. But there would be a problem if the holes weren't
precisely centered vertically. I figured they wouldn't be, so I needed a
new strategy.

I decided to use two fences, one for drilling each end of the rungs.
That way I could keep the same reference face. I decided it didn't
matter if the holes were centered horizontally, which allowed me to use
the edges of the drill guide as reference points.

As I started each new piece, I chose the "better" face and faced it
downwards. I did the same with the stiles that mate with the rungs. That
way the more visible face of each ladder should be well aligned. As it
turned out, the alignment seems pretty good even on the other side.

I shot a quick video of how I drilled the holes in the stiles, but my
editing staff has gone out for the afternoon. You'll have to wait. In
short, I remade the jig to drill into the edge of the long pieces rather
than the ends.

Very neat idea when you had to
do so many. WW




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On 5/24/2014 2:19 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Against advice from several people here, I decided to go with dowels to
attach the (many) "rungs" on the sides of my cookbook shelves.

Advice: Do whatever you have to do to get the job done with the tools
you have.

But remember, the advice given here is worth what you pay for it.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 5/25/2014 8:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/24/2014 2:19 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Against advice from several people here, I decided to go with dowels to
attach the (many) "rungs" on the sides of my cookbook shelves.

Advice: Do whatever you have to do to get the job done with the tools
you have.

Always. "The tools I have" is always a consideration in the design.

But remember, the advice given here is worth what you pay for it.

It's worth at least twice that.


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On 5/24/2014 7:58 PM, woodchucker wrote:
One piece of advice.
Once you are done drilling the hole.. back the drill out while running.
But don't keep it running at the bottom of the hole.

I took a look at the video. I does look like I "lingered" a bit at the
bottom, but that's not my general habit. I slowed down at the bottom of
the holes as not to overshoot the tape-marked depth. I'll keep that tip
in mind though.

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On 5/24/2014 11:46 PM, WW wrote:


"Greg Guarino" wrote in message ...



Very neat idea when you had to
do so many. WW

Here's how I remade the jig to do the second half of the drilling: the
128 mating holes in the "ladder" stiles:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14285906933/

[Cheesy caption styles courtesy of Windows Movie Maker and my first
attempt at video editing. My daughter, and her better setup, were
otherwise occupied. ]

Once I got the system down, drilling the holes was very quick. Not as
quick as the "rungs", as I had to line up the reference marks by eye,
but still pretty efficient. I think it took as much time to mark up the
locations as to do the actual drilling.

I had to be careful; since the pieces are in mirror-image sets and I
wanted to keep the same reference face, half of the pieces had to be
done in the opposite direction in the jig, with the "reminder" dowel
filling a different hole. I also put a flap of painter's tape over one
edge of the drill guide so I wouldn't absent-mindedly line up my marks
on the wrong one.







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Greg Guarino wrote:

Here's how I remade the jig to do the second half of the drilling: the
128 mating holes in the "ladder" stiles:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/14285906933/

[Cheesy caption styles courtesy of Windows Movie Maker and my first
attempt at video editing. My daughter, and her better setup, were
otherwise occupied. ]

Don't sweat it Greg - I didn't find them to be cheesy... well, not too
cheesy, anyway...


Once I got the system down, drilling the holes was very quick. Not as
quick as the "rungs", as I had to line up the reference marks by eye,
but still pretty efficient. I think it took as much time to mark up
the locations as to do the actual drilling.

I had to be careful; since the pieces are in mirror-image sets and I
wanted to keep the same reference face, half of the pieces had to be
done in the opposite direction in the jig, with the "reminder" dowel
filling a different hole. I also put a flap of painter's tape over one
edge of the drill guide so I wouldn't absent-mindedly line up my marks
on the wrong one.

Good idea. Very well experienced here, at doing exactly that kind of
thing - after having carefully thought it through to make sure that I
wouldn't! I'm a big believer in the dummy approach. It took me a couple of
passes through your video to figure out how you were indexing since I
couldn't see any of your layout lines on the stock.

It's really good to see you investing the time to create a good,
multi-function jig with all of the right components. I can take short cuts
in that area and even if it does not cost me in production, it's not as
elegant and often not as efficient as what you've done. I really have to go
to HF and just pick up a handful of clamps like that. You've inspired me...

--

-Mike-

On Sat, 24 May 2014 18:20:01 -0500, Leon wrote:

And while this is a bit crude as opposed to using a jig, these work
pretty well.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...wel-and-Tenon-
Centers-516-(10).aspx?keyword=&refcode=10INGOPB&device=

I never had much luck with those. And they don't work for shelf pin
holes. I just drilled about 350 holes (7 bookcases) for shelf pins - I
used this:

http://www.kregtool.com/Shelf-Pin-Jig-Prodview.html

and I doweled the top rail of the face frames together with this:

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/200...eling-jig.aspx

On 5/25/2014 1:54 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
I had to be careful; since the pieces are in mirror-image sets and I
wanted to keep the same reference face, half of the pieces had to be
done in the opposite direction in the jig, with the "reminder" dowel
filling a different hole. I also put a flap of painter's tape over one
edge of the drill guide so I wouldn't absent-mindedly line up my marks
on the wrong one.

Good idea. Very well experienced here, at doing exactly that kind of
thing - after having carefully thought it through to make sure that I
wouldn't! I'm a big believer in the dummy approach.

One of the great things about using a jig - and I say this with the full
weight of 4 or 5 jigs worth of lifetime experience - is that it
makes a task "automatic" that would otherwise require painstaking
precision with each operation. But that's potentially a bad thing, I
have found. The "automatic" quality invites daydreaming. I realized that
while making the first piece. I decided I'd really better have a system
to prevent me from making those errors.

It took me a couple of
passes through your video to figure out how you were indexing since I
couldn't see any of your layout lines on the stock.

You can see a couple of them in this photo, although they are pretty
light. One is lined up with the right-hand edge of the drill guide and
the other is near the "foot" of the left-hand clamp. You can also see
the flap of green tape.

For the mirror-image pieces, I put the "reminder" dowel in the right
hand hole and lined the marks up with the left-hand edge of the guide.

It's really good to see you investing the time to create a good,
multi-function jig with all of the right components.

I thought about trying to make it multi-function. I think it might be
possible, but in the end I simply made two different jigs with the same
parts.

I can take short cuts
in that area and even if it does not cost me in production, it's not as
elegant and often not as efficient as what you've done. I really have to go
to HF and just pick up a handful of clamps like that. You've inspired me...

I went to Harbor Freight for the first time the other day, specifically
to (possibly) buy some toggle clamps. I have ordered a few things from
them in the past and I have to say that seeing the stuff in person is a
much better idea. Some of their products seem perfectly serviceable;
others are very flimsy or the parts fit together poorly. Their "charcoal
grey" one-hand bar clamps really felt wrong, for instance. But these
toggle clamps are solid and work very nicely. I've only had them for a
week, but I have clamped and unclamped them 128 times so far. I have no
experience with any other brand, but they worked exactly as I imagined
they would.

At the HF price I bought a pair of the vertical variety as well. I can
imagine an awful lot of uses for them, starting with the pattern routing
for the curved rails on this project.

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On 5/25/2014 5:25 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
You can see a couple of them in this photo, although they are pretty
light. One is lined up with the right-hand edge of the drill guide and
the other is near the "foot" of the left-hand clamp. You can also see
the flap of green tape.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490


For the mirror-image pieces, I put the "reminder" dowel in the right
hand hole and lined the marks up with the left-hand edge of the guide.


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On 5/25/2014 12:59 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2014 18:20:01 -0500, Leon wrote:

And while this is a bit crude as opposed to using a jig, these work
pretty well.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...wel-and-Tenon-
Centers-516-(10).aspx?keyword=&refcode=10INGOPB&device=

I never had much luck with those. And they don't work for shelf pin
holes. I just drilled about 350 holes (7 bookcases) for shelf pins - I
used this:



Those are more for insuring that holes to be drilled will match existing
holes, whether they are evenly spaced or randomly spaced.
Not really suited for drilling hundreds of holes.



http://www.kregtool.com/Shelf-Pin-Jig-Prodview.html

and I doweled the top rail of the face frames together with this:

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/200...eling-jig.aspx



I have the Kreg jig and it is OK. For productions runs I have literally
drilled thousands of shelf pin holes with a jig available from Rockler.
I bought the jig from Rockler before they changed their name to
Rockler in 1995~1997 ish.

http://www.rockler.com/jig-itreg-she...-centering-bit

I pretty much wore out the Rockler jig. So I decided to try the Kreg,
I'll probably buy another Rockler for production runs.

The problem with the Kreg is that you have to move the jig way too
often, each move introduces the possibility of an accumulated error.
The same is true for the Rockler jig but the chances of error are
roughly half that of the Kreg jig. Originally I bought 2 Kreg Jigs to
be used together for a longer run. the problem there is that the jig
does not set flat when the two units are bound together. You have to be
very careful to fully flatten the assembly in the work or the holes will
be at an angle and not evenly spaced. Then the indexing pin becomes
difficult to remove once you remove the clamp because the assembly wants
to bow up in the middle again. I returned the second Kreg jig and only
use it for short runs. So you really should use a clamp, not at all
necessary with the Rockler jig.

On 5/25/2014 12:59 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sat, 24 May 2014 18:20:01 -0500, Leon wrote:

And while this is a bit crude as opposed to using a jig, these work
pretty well.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...wel-and-Tenon-
Centers-516-(10).aspx?keyword=&refcode=10INGOPB&device=

I never had much luck with those. And they don't work for shelf pin
holes. I just drilled about 350 holes (7 bookcases) for shelf pins - I
used this:



Those are more for insuring that holes to be drilled will match existing
holes, whether they are evenly spaced or randomly spaced.
Not really suited for drilling hundreds of holes.



http://www.kregtool.com/Shelf-Pin-Jig-Prodview.html

and I doweled the top rail of the face frames together with this:

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/200...eling-jig.aspx



I have the Kreg jig and it is OK. For productions runs I have literally
drilled thousands of shelf pin holes with a jig available from Rockler.
I bought the jig from Rockler before they changed their name to
Rockler in 1995~1997 ish.

http://www.rockler.com/jig-itreg-she...-centering-bit

I pretty much wore out the Rockler jig. So I decided to try the Kreg,
I'll probably buy another Rockler for production runs.

The problem with the Kreg is that you have to move the jig way too
often, each move introduces the possibility of an accumulated error.
The same is true for the Rockler jig but the chances of error are
roughly half that of the Kreg jig. Originally I bought 2 Kreg Jigs to
be used together for a longer run. the problem there is that the jig
does not set flat when the two units are bound together. You have to be
very careful to fully flatten the assembly in the work or the holes will
be at an angle and not evenly spaced. Then the indexing pin becomes
difficult to remove once you remove the clamp because the assembly wants
to bow up in the middle again. I returned the second Kreg jig and only
use it for short runs. So you really should use a clamp, not at all
necessary with the Rockler jig.

On Sun, 25 May 2014 17:31:41 -0500, Leon wrote:

Those are more for insuring that holes to be drilled will match existing
holes, whether they are evenly spaced or randomly spaced.
Not really suited for drilling hundreds of holes.

True. But my problem, on face frames for example, was that unless I made
a corner alignment jig, I inevitably got the top/bottom of the rails a
64th or so above or below the ends of the stile.

Same problem would have existed with the jig I used, and with any jig
where parallax can be introduced by (aging) eyes, but I dropped a 1/4"
rod into the end hole and used it to position the jig - no eyesight
involved :-).

Greg Guarino wrote:
On 5/25/2014 5:25 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
You can see a couple of them in this photo, although they are pretty
light. One is lined up with the right-hand edge of the drill guide
and the other is near the "foot" of the left-hand clamp. You can
also see the flap of green tape.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490


Got it. They are faint and my eyes don't see a lot of faint things like
that so quickly anymore...

--

-Mike-