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#1
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I made a mallet (deadblow?) from walnut, maple and BBs. Incredibly fun project.
The plans were taken from Shopnotes 1992 No2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3UcfQ_rE |
#2
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As I posted, I'd use a 50% fill of BB's - the video shows 100% fill.
You want the many hammer blows when you smack something. Martin On 2/17/2014 10:34 PM, wrote: I made a mallet (deadblow?) from walnut, maple and BBs. Incredibly fun project. The plans were taken from Shopnotes 1992 No2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3UcfQ_rE |
#3
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Subject
See abpw for a similar unit I made, but without metal balls. Lew |
#4
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On 2/18/2014 12:40 AM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
As I posted, I'd use a 50% fill of BB's - the video shows 100% fill. You want the many hammer blows when you smack something. Martin On 2/17/2014 10:34 PM, wrote: I made a mallet (deadblow?) from walnut, maple and BBs. Incredibly fun project. The plans were taken from Shopnotes 1992 No2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3UcfQ_rE Looks good, but I would agree with Martin, also I might use lead shot to increase the weight with less fill. -- Jeff |
#5
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On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 12:40:22 AM UTC-5, Martin Eastburn wrote:
As I posted, I'd use a 50% fill of BB's - the video shows 100% fill. You want the many hammer blows when you smack something. Not convinced. Here's why: F = ma : Half full gives me approx F = 1/2 ma "Many hammer blows" : Force = ma (collission1) + ma (collisions2) ... etc. = m(total)a You only end up with approx 1/2 the amount of force as a full hammer head spread out over multiple smaller collisions. The sum of which are still 1/2 a full head. Martin On 2/17/2014 10:34 PM, wrote: I made a mallet (deadblow?) from walnut, maple and BBs. Incredibly fun project. The plans were taken from Shopnotes 1992 No2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3UcfQ_rE |
#7
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On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:55:33 AM UTC-5, woodchucker wrote:
On 2/18/2014 1:50 AM, wrote: On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 12:40:22 AM UTC-5, Martin Eastburn wrote: As I posted, I'd use a 50% fill of BB's - the video shows 100% fill. You want the many hammer blows when you smack something. Not convinced. Here's why: F = ma : Half full gives me approx F = 1/2 ma "Many hammer blows" : Force = ma (collission1) + ma (collisions2) ... etc. = m(total)a You only end up with approx 1/2 the amount of force as a full hammer head spread out over multiple smaller collisions. The sum of which are still 1/2 a full head. Martin On 2/17/2014 10:34 PM, wrote: I made a mallet (deadblow?) from walnut, maple and BBs. Incredibly fun project. The plans were taken from Shopnotes 1992 No2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3UcfQ_rE So I was wrong, I thought Martin was talking about the bounce back. With a full head, you gain mass, but I don't think it gives you the deadblow, that is desireable. That's why I would go with less fill, but lead, to gain back the mass. No. Substitute the mass for lead in my equations above. You are still better off with a full head of lead than 1/2 full head of lead. It's the same equations. -- Jeff |
#8
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![]() With a full head, you gain mass, but I don't think it gives you the deadblow, that is desireable. That's why I would go with less fill, but lead, to gain back the mass. No. Substitute the mass for lead in my equations above. You are still better off with a full head of lead than 1/2 full head of lead. It's the same equations. What you are describing is a weighted mallet. For a deadblow hammer to be effective, the shot moves to the back of the hammer as you start to swing, then crashes forward at impact, thus reducing rebound. It can not shift if it is full. See the definition, here. http://www.hgtv.com/home-improvement...dex.html#dname dead-blow hammer Strikes blows without damaging the work's surface. The tool's hollow head is partially filled with small metal shot, which reduces rebounding. -- Jim in NC --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
#9
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wrote:
I made a mallet (deadblow?) from walnut, maple and BBs. Incredibly fun project. The plans were taken from Shopnotes 1992 No2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3UcfQ_rE Nice looking mallet! BUT with no internal loose mass, your answer about " deadblow?", would be no, not until the bb's slowly deform the cylinders and have more room to move to give the secondary amount of force to help counteract bounce back. The more movement the more counteraction to bounce back you will have. Having said that, walnut being significantly softer than maple might itself cushion/absorb some of the impact and lessen the bounce back if you don't strike squarely or until the walnut rounds off or splits off. If you are building these for a conversation piece, the walnut looks very nice. For actual use I would recommend that the striking faces be of equal hardness. As the softer material mixed with a harder material wears away faster the striking surface naturally becomes smaller and the force is concentrated in a smaller area. This might leave an unwanted impression on a wood surface if you are using the mallet for adjustments. That particular use is what deadblows excel at. If you used a heavier material, walnut is pretty lite weight, with less loose mass internally you benefit more with more counteraction to bounce back. Now let me throw you a curve on your "force calculation". First off your equation does seem logical. BUT an impact driver delivers more efficient force than does a drill/driver with the same available power supply. It's the multiple impacts of the impact driver that wins the contest of loosening the stuck screw vs. the constant force of the drill/ driver.. So while loose shot in a dead blow hammer might seem to have less force at initial impact the amount of work being done is probably close to the same given the second impact force of the loose shot. That is going to be hard to formulate given some loss from the secondary force counteracting the bounce back. Maybe if the entire mallet striking surface was walnut the bounce back would be diminished. Whew! :-). Something to think about. LOL |
#10
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ok. Then what i have is a mallet and I named it correctly. I'm concerned with the mallet head bouncing back. I'd rather strike fewer times with more force than more times with less bounce back.
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#11
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Consider this:
A large force that is delivered in smaller doses is not as efficient at driving a joint home as one force all at once. Each smaller force would have to first overcome the coefficient of friction before it can move an object. Any small fraction of the force that is below the coefficient of friction is a loss. Consider the extreme : dropping 100 kg of lead weights on a stuck joint at a 1g at a time versus dropping the 100 kg all at once. If the 1g force doesn't break the coefficient of friction you will have very little net joint closure. |
#12
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#13
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#14
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Yes. Thank you for the 'not'.
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#15
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#16
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In article ,
Morgans wrote: various arguments about dead blow hammer design snipped... What you are describing is a weighted mallet. For a deadblow hammer to be effective, the shot moves to the back of the hammer as you start to swing, then crashes forward at impact, thus reducing rebound. It can not shift if it is full. See the definition, here. Make the hammer twice as big, using equivalent of a full load of shot from the original smaller size, for the best of both worlds? ![]() -- There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken) Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org |
#17
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![]() In article , Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: oN 2/18/2014 9:15 AM, wrote: Consider this: A large force that is delivered in smaller doses is not as efficient at driving a joint home as one force all at once. Perhaps in theory. but in real life, the impact driver works with multiple lighter strength impacts. Its the multiple impacts that produce more work in a given period of time. A larger single force may be way too much or simply not enough. I believe the flaw to that argument is that an impact driver in fact does NOT use multiple lighter strength impacts, but actually, due to the nature of impact, uses momentarily HIGHER forces than the static tool torque spec would imply. -- There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken) Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org |
#18
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On Monday, February 17, 2014 10:34:56 PM UTC-6, wrote:
I made a mallet (deadblow?) from walnut, maple and BBs. Incredibly fun project. The plans were taken from Shopnotes 1992 No2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j3UcfQ_rE It looks great but I think a solid head where you drill, fill, and cap on both sides would be more useful. Also, why not taper the mortise and insert the handle end first so that it gets more snug the further you pull it through? Here's Roy Underhill getting it done. http://video.pbs.org/video/2365021538/ |
#19
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On 2/18/2014 6:09 PM, Larry W wrote:
In , Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: oN 2/18/2014 9:15 AM, wrote: Consider this: A large force that is delivered in smaller doses is not as efficient at driving a joint home as one force all at once. Perhaps in theory. but in real life, the impact driver works with multiple lighter strength impacts. Its the multiple impacts that produce more work in a given period of time. A larger single force may be way too much or simply not enough. I believe the flaw to that argument is that an impact driver in fact does NOT use multiple lighter strength impacts, but actually, due to the nature of impact, uses momentarily HIGHER forces than the static tool torque spec would imply. I don't know, I can hold the impact with a large enough socket, with my bare hand, with a little slippage. |
#20
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On 2/18/2014 7:00 PM, Leon wrote:
.... I don't know, I can hold the impact with a large enough socket, with my bare hand, with a little slippage. Because impact wrenches don't actually deliver torque, per se, but an energy impulse. Somewhat paradoxically, against a "springy" resistance like your hand, there is very little, if any actual torque delivered as opposed to it working against a stuck fastener. There's a decent albeit not fully rigorous discussion at wikipedia under a heading "Effect of Impact Drive"...in short to transfer the hammer action to the driven part requires an essentially elastic (the cue ball on the object ball thingie) impact whereas your hand hold is very non-elastic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench -- |
#21
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dpb wrote:
On 2/18/2014 7:00 PM, Leon wrote: ... I don't know, I can hold the impact with a large enough socket, with my bare hand, with a little slippage. Because impact wrenches don't actually deliver torque, per se, but an energy impulse. Somewhat paradoxically, against a "springy" resistance like your hand, there is very little, if any actual torque delivered as opposed to it working against a stuck fastener. There's a decent albeit not fully rigorous discussion at wikipedia under a heading "Effect of Impact Drive"...in short to transfer the hammer action to the driven part requires an essentially elastic (the cue ball on the object ball thingie) impact whereas your hand hold is very non-elastic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench Boy - this group can dive down into esoteric rabbit holes! Why doesn't someone just try it rather than deliberating all of the theoretical I-don't-really-know stuff? -- -Mike- |
#22
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On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 11:26:06 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote: On 2/18/2014 7:00 PM, Leon wrote: ... I don't know, I can hold the impact with a large enough socket, with my bare hand, with a little slippage. Because impact wrenches don't actually deliver torque, per se, but an energy impulse. Somewhat paradoxically, against a "springy" resistance like your hand, there is very little, if any actual torque delivered as opposed to it working against a stuck fastener. There's a decent albeit not fully rigorous discussion at wikipedia under a heading "Effect of Impact Drive"...in short to transfer the hammer action to the driven part requires an essentially elastic (the cue ball on the object ball thingie) impact whereas your hand hold is very non-elastic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench Boy - this group can dive down into esoteric rabbit holes! Why doesn't someone just try it rather than deliberating all of the theoretical I-don't-really-know stuff? -- -Mike- It's physics. All of which can be extremely modeled with math w/o lifting a finger. |
#23
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"Mike Marlow" wrote:
dpb wrote: On 2/18/2014 7:00 PM, Leon wrote: ... I don't know, I can hold the impact with a large enough socket, with my bare hand, with a little slippage. Because impact wrenches don't actually deliver torque, per se, but an energy impulse. Somewhat paradoxically, against a "springy" resistance like your hand, there is very little, if any actual torque delivered as opposed to it working against a stuck fastener. There's a decent albeit not fully rigorous discussion at wikipedia under a heading "Effect of Impact Drive"...in short to transfer the hammer action to the driven part requires an essentially elastic (the cue ball on the object ball thingie) impact whereas your hand hold is very non-elastic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench Boy - this group can dive down into esoteric rabbit holes! Why doesn't someone just try it rather than deliberating all of the theoretical I-don't-really-know stuff? Well actually, as indicated with one of my last reply, I have tried it. |
#24
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Leon wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote: dpb wrote: On 2/18/2014 7:00 PM, Leon wrote: ... I don't know, I can hold the impact with a large enough socket, with my bare hand, with a little slippage. Because impact wrenches don't actually deliver torque, per se, but an energy impulse. Somewhat paradoxically, against a "springy" resistance like your hand, there is very little, if any actual torque delivered as opposed to it working against a stuck fastener. There's a decent albeit not fully rigorous discussion at wikipedia under a heading "Effect of Impact Drive"...in short to transfer the hammer action to the driven part requires an essentially elastic (the cue ball on the object ball thingie) impact whereas your hand hold is very non-elastic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench Boy - this group can dive down into esoteric rabbit holes! Why doesn't someone just try it rather than deliberating all of the theoretical I-don't-really-know stuff? Well actually, as indicated with one of my last reply, I have tried it. You get the beer prize then. I just sometimes find it funny how much we kick ideas or thoughts around here instead of putting some of them to the test. It does show we've got some thinking people here and sometimes I'm downright amazed at what the guys here contribute, but still... -- -Mike- |
#25
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On 2/18/2014 10:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote: On 2/18/2014 7:00 PM, Leon wrote: ... I don't know, I can hold the impact with a large enough socket, with my bare hand, with a little slippage. Because impact wrenches don't actually deliver torque, per se, but an energy impulse. Somewhat paradoxically, against a "springy" resistance like your hand, there is very little, if any actual torque delivered as opposed to it working against a stuck fastener. There's a decent albeit not fully rigorous discussion at wikipedia under a heading "Effect of Impact Drive"...in short to transfer the hammer action to the driven part requires an essentially elastic (the cue ball on the object ball thingie) impact whereas your hand hold is very non-elastic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench Boy - this group can dive down into esoteric rabbit holes! Why doesn't someone just try it rather than deliberating all of the theoretical I-don't-really-know stuff? Not really so esoteric at all...it's the explanation for _why_ Leon's experience is so....that seems at best at least counter-intuitive on first blush. -- |
#26
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On 2/19/2014 6:19 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
You get the beer prize then. I just sometimes find it funny how much we kick ideas or thoughts around here instead of putting some of them to the test. It does show we've got some thinking people here and sometimes I'm downright amazed at what the guys here contribute, but still... That's why it is invaluable, when either taking or giving advice, for those seeking same to be able to see some actual evidence of the advisor's skill and knowledge of that which he speaks. IOW, thank dog for hypertext markup language and Sir Berners-Lee giving some us the ability to do that when proffering advice. ![]() All too often the advice proffered in forums like this are based on Googled knowledge and damned little to none, actual experience. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
#27
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On 2/19/2014 9:41 AM, Swingman wrote:
.... All too often the advice proffered in forums like this are based on Googled knowledge and damned little to none, actual experience. Well, being a "trained physicist" sometimes helps to understand the underlying principles involved, too. ![]() readable article, however, that outlines them... -- |
#28
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dpb wrote:
On 2/19/2014 9:41 AM, Swingman wrote: ... All too often the advice proffered in forums like this are based on Googled knowledge and damned little to none, actual experience. Well, being a "trained physicist" sometimes helps to understand the underlying principles involved, too. ![]() readable article, however, that outlines them... Ok - I risk going out on a limb here, in areas that I'm not qualified to speak into, but I do recognize your claim to credentials. What I have seen many, many times is where there is some other consideration that the trained eye failed to see. Not at all to downplay those credentials, but it is fair to say that even the best design by the best engineering mind, falls prey to the discovery of the prototype. You know - the oops moment when we realize that we didn't recognize some aspect of the problem, or the likes. If everything worked in the theoretical realm as it seems it should (as we see it...), there would be no need for prototypes, proof of concept, testing, etc. Ok (again...), I lean towards the practical. I appreciate the theoretical and in fact I value it greatly. But - I go to "just doing it" at some point. Maybe that's just me, but it's the only way I can really prove the theories behind what I'm doing. -- -Mike- |
#29
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On 2/19/2014 11:07 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
.... Ok (again...), I lean towards the practical. I appreciate the theoretical and in fact I value it greatly. But - I go to "just doing it" at some point. Maybe that's just me, but it's the only way I can really prove the theories behind what I'm doing. Well, certainly I'll never claim every analysis I ever did was perfect when taken to the lab w/o modification... ![]() OTOH, a prototype w/o some design basis in theory has a likelihood to not be very successful, either, at least w/o a lot more testing effort than could be necessary. And, of course, the type of problem one's out to try to solve has a lot to do with how much and how involved calculations needs must be. I only tossed this one in here because the case of the impact wrench behavior brought up isn't so apparent as to why since as Leon notes one can hold it by hand yet it has the ability to break loose "frozen" fasteners that simple leverage often can't. That seemed worth pointing as to what is actually happening. (*) Then again, they didn't give us a practice reactor to go run experiments on before first criticality and power ascension; we had to get it right from basic principles. Needless to say, there definitely were some tight muscles in certain areas when that day came...but, turns out theory correctly applied _does_ work and we hit hot zero power criticality soluble boron concentration within about 10 ppm of the computed value (1190 vs 1200). -- |
#30
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On 2/19/2014 10:00 AM, dpb wrote:
On 2/19/2014 9:41 AM, Swingman wrote: All too often the advice proffered in forums like this are based on Googled knowledge and damned little to none, actual experience. Well, being a "trained physicist" sometimes helps to understand the underlying principles involved, too. ![]() No worries, those who are trained in just about any scientific discipline are generally quite capable of recognizing the same in others of very different disciplines, Google notwithstanding. g That fact might have a time limit on it though ... ![]() -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
#31
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On 2/19/2014 4:12 PM, Swingman wrote:
.... No worries, those who are trained in just about any scientific discipline are generally quite capable of recognizing the same in others of very different disciplines, Google notwithstanding. g That fact might have a time limit on it though ... ![]() If that's referring to what I'm presuming, I'm forgetting more and at a more rapid rate every day, too... ![]() A fellow at the morning coffee klatch the other morning had seen a Nova program with Brian Greene wherein he had apparently (I didn't see it) mentioned getting interested in physics in HS when he realized could write equations for complex systems and solve for the resulting motion. I guess the example was the HS physics instructor hypothesized a baseball stuck to the ceiling w/ a wad of gum and what would happen? After the obligatory explanation of Newton (the fellow's a geologist, not an engineer so his physics is even rustier than mine), I explained how there's an easier formulation altho I doubted that even Dr Greene knew anything about it at the HS level. So, I started to write the Lagrangian show him how to set up the two coordinates of angle and vertical displacement and then...and then...and then... ![]() Just been too long. So, anyway, I've spent the evenings last week or so after that humbling experience glancing thru a couple old texts again while the Olympics bumbles along in the background... One thing is clear...the practice w/ the modern computer and things such as Matlab, Mathematica, and all the other engineering toolsets is a far cry from the early days when was issued the 20" K+E slide rule when first reported for duty at B&W NPGD... -- |
#32
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On 2/19/2014 4:41 PM, dpb wrote:
One thing is clear...the practice w/ the modern computer and things such as Matlab, Mathematica, and all the other engineering toolsets is a far cry from the early days when was issued the 20" K+E slide rule when first reported for duty at B&W NPGD... Last couple of semesters of college making up for lost time with as many math courses as I could handle, my slide rule skills were like a sharp pencil when I was drafted into the Army. As a young Fire Direction Officer, I had no trouble routinely sending commands to the guns before our computerized system cleared its buffers. Today, I'd have a hard time using one to stir my coffee ... -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
#33
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I hate to keep kicking this horse but... I just received my electronic issue if Popular Woidworking today. An article on mallets was on the inside. What a coinkydink.
On the topic of dead blows the cabal says: "Minimal rebound makes better use of the applied force" How do I get a better use of force here? How did this myth start? I want to blame someone. Norm? Can I blame Norm? ![]() Again if F = ma. And I apply the m a little at a time apposed to all at once, how is this a better use of the applied force? I think we officially debunked Leon's hammer driver explanation ![]() |
#34
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#36
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What I don't understand in particular are these two phenomena that would seem to reduce the effectiveness of the applied mass:
1) when the deadblow is accerated toward the object the mass (majority) is in the rear of the cavity (from inertia). After the deadblow makes contact the mass leaves the rear of the cavity and travels to the from and as it does, it decelerates. (Loss of a thus loss of efficiency) 2) there is still bounce back inside the deadblow head. After the shot is thrown against the front inside of the deadblow it will bounce back. The energy that is lost to internal bounce back should equal any energy lost to the bounce back of a non-deadblow mallet of equal mass. Correct? |
#37
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*Should be "of equal mass and close mass distribution"
And please don't swap the terms. Recoil? Leon likes the term bounce back ![]() |
#38
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#39
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#40
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But you still have deceleration. A point that gets at the increased efficiency claim. The magnitude can certainly be debated.
I'm not sold on the increased efficiency from a better recoil property for the shot. It's still going to recoil. Bang into each other (energy loss) and bang into the sides of the cavity (energy loss) You also have a loss in energy via heat (from banging into each other) that doesn't come into play on a solid hammer of equal mass. Again, this gets to efficiency. Magnitude can be debated. I don't think we get a free lunch here. More efficiency from a hammer strike with the same amount of mass - not convinced. |
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