I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?

Mike

On 9/17/2013 6:19 PM, Michael wrote:
I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?

Mike


It's an oily wood. Try cleaning with Acetone first, or using epoxy.

--
Jeff

"Michael" wrote in message

I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued
them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how
it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night.
The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had
to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly
tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to
yellow wood glue?

Mike

Not IME. Neither western nor eastern.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:01:10 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
"Michael" wrote in message



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued

them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how

it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night.

The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had

to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly

tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to

yellow wood glue?



Mike



Not IME. Neither western nor eastern.

IME may refer to:

Organizations

Institution of Mechanical Engineers, British engineering society
Institute of Management Education, Hayatabad Peshawar KPK Pakistan
Instituto Militar de Engenharia (Military Institute of Engineering), an engineering school in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Iran Mercantile Exchange, an Iranian commodity exchange
Institution of Mechanical Engineers India, an Indian engineering society

Science and Technology

Input method editor, a program or operating system component that allows computer users to enter characters and symbols not found on their keyboard
In-Movie Experience, a content channel for providing bonus material on HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc
Intron Mediated Enhancement, a biological process by which some intron sequences can enhance gene expression

Entertainment

I Mother Earth, an alternative rock band from Canada

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:00:41 PM UTC-5, woodchucker wrote:
On 9/17/2013 6:19 PM, Michael wrote:

I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?



Mike





It's an oily wood. Try cleaning with Acetone first, or using epoxy.



--

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff. I'll give epoxy a shot.

Michael wrote:

I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last
night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it
failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new.
I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the
joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it
resistant to yellow wood glue?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
woodchucker wrote:

It's an oily wood. Try cleaning with Acetone first, or using epoxy.
----------------------------------------------------------

Michael wrote:

Thanks, Jeff. I'll give epoxy a shot.
----------------------------------------------------
Epoxy doesn't like 45F.

Try to maintain at least 65F until the epoxy kicks.

BTW, you also want to clean with acetone first.

Lew

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 16:07:30 -0700 (PDT), Michael
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:01:10 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
"Michael" wrote in message



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued

them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how

it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night.

The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had

to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly

tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to

yellow wood glue?



Mike



Not IME. Neither western nor eastern.

IME may refer to:

Organizations

Institution of Mechanical Engineers, British engineering society
Institute of Management Education, Hayatabad Peshawar KPK Pakistan
Instituto Militar de Engenharia (Military Institute of Engineering), an engineering school in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Iran Mercantile Exchange, an Iranian commodity exchange
Institution of Mechanical Engineers India, an Indian engineering society

Science and Technology

Input method editor, a program or operating system component that allows computer users to enter characters and symbols not found on their keyboard
In-Movie Experience, a content channel for providing bonus material on HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc
Intron Mediated Enhancement, a biological process by which some intron sequences can enhance gene expression

Entertainment

I Mother Earth, an alternative rock band from Canada

IME, it's none of the above.

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:56:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 16:07:30 -0700 (PDT), Michael

wrote:



On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:01:10 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

"Michael" wrote in message







I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued



them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how



it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night.



The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had



to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly



tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to



yellow wood glue?







Mike







Not IME. Neither western nor eastern.



IME may refer to:



Organizations



Institution of Mechanical Engineers, British engineering society

Institute of Management Education, Hayatabad Peshawar KPK Pakistan

Instituto Militar de Engenharia (Military Institute of Engineering), an engineering school in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Iran Mercantile Exchange, an Iranian commodity exchange

Institution of Mechanical Engineers India, an Indian engineering society



Science and Technology



Input method editor, a program or operating system component that allows computer users to enter characters and symbols not found on their keyboard

In-Movie Experience, a content channel for providing bonus material on HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc

Intron Mediated Enhancement, a biological process by which some intron sequences can enhance gene expression



Entertainment



I Mother Earth, an alternative rock band from Canada



IME, it's none of the above.

Ah, got it.

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:52:25 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Michael wrote:



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last

night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it

failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new.

I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the

joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it

resistant to yellow wood glue?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

woodchucker wrote:



It's an oily wood. Try cleaning with Acetone first, or using epoxy.

----------------------------------------------------------



Michael wrote:



Thanks, Jeff. I'll give epoxy a shot.

----------------------------------------------------

Epoxy doesn't like 45F.



Try to maintain at least 65F until the epoxy kicks.



BTW, you also want to clean with acetone first.



Lew

Thanks, Lew. I tried Gorilla glue for the heck of it. But I'll also experiment with acetone and epoxy.

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:52:25 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Michael wrote:



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last

night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it

failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new.

I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the

joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it

resistant to yellow wood glue?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

woodchucker wrote:



It's an oily wood. Try cleaning with Acetone first, or using epoxy.

----------------------------------------------------------



Michael wrote:



Thanks, Jeff. I'll give epoxy a shot.

----------------------------------------------------

Epoxy doesn't like 45F.



Try to maintain at least 65F until the epoxy kicks.



BTW, you also want to clean with acetone first.



Lew

Will acetone help yellow glue set, or is yellow glue just not an option?

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 15:19:15 -0700 (PDT), Michael
wrote:

I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?

Mike
Fresh unweathered cedar is "resistant" to most glues. Polyurethanes
like "gorilla glue" work inmany cases - and wiping down with acetone
before gluing can help as it removes the natural oil from the
surface/fibers. The right moisture content (less than about 15%, but
not too dry (like less than 5%) will let normal wood glues cure
properly

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 9:39:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 15:19:15 -0700 (PDT), Michael

wrote:



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?



Mike

Fresh unweathered cedar is "resistant" to most glues. Polyurethanes

like "gorilla glue" work inmany cases - and wiping down with acetone

before gluing can help as it removes the natural oil from the

surface/fibers. The right moisture content (less than about 15%, but

not too dry (like less than 5%) will let normal wood glues cure

properly

I think this might be a case of really dry cedar. I got several wide boards free from someone who was cleaning out his shed and wanted to get rid of them. They had obviously been there a while. I thought I would make a few boxes out of them, but the gluing issue might make this a series of cumbersome projects.

Michael wrote:

Will acetone help yellow glue set, or is yellow glue just not an
option?
-------------------------------------------
Like epoxy, yellow glue doesn't like anything much below 60F.

Acetone won't help yellow glue set, but it will help prepare the
surface to receive the y/g.

Lew

"Michael" wrote:

I think this might be a case of really dry cedar. I got several wide
boards free from someone who was cleaning out his shed and wanted to
get rid of them. They had obviously been there a while. I thought I
would make a few boxes out of them, but the gluing issue might make
this a series of cumbersome projects.
---------------------------------------
Now you tell us.G

Time to fire up the grill and use those planks to grill cedar planked
use fish of choice.

Google "cedar planked fish", for lots of recipies.

Lew

Michael wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:52:25 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Michael wrote:



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last

night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it

failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new.

I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the

joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it

resistant to yellow wood glue?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

woodchucker wrote:



It's an oily wood. Try cleaning with Acetone first, or using epoxy.

----------------------------------------------------------



Michael wrote:



Thanks, Jeff. I'll give epoxy a shot.

----------------------------------------------------

Epoxy doesn't like 45F.



Try to maintain at least 65F until the epoxy kicks.



BTW, you also want to clean with acetone first.



Lew

Will acetone help yellow glue set, or is yellow glue just not an option?

Acetone simply cleans the surface, I think you should look at the working
temp range on the bottle.

Michael wrote:
I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I
hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps
went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but
you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've
rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?

Mike

I have glued the cedar picket on occasion with good results. I have had
glue failures with oak face to plywood in temps not quite as cool as what
you were working in.

"Michael" wrote in message

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:01:10 PM UTC-5, dadiOH
wrote:
"Michael" wrote in message



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued

them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see
how

it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last
night.

The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you
had

to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly

tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant
to

yellow wood glue?



Mike



Not IME. Neither western nor eastern.

IME may refer to:

Organizations

Institution of Mechanical Engineers, British
engineering society Institute of Management Education,
Hayatabad Peshawar KPK Pakistan Instituto Militar de
Engenharia (Military Institute of Engineering), an
engineering school in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Iran
Mercantile Exchange, an Iranian commodity exchange
Institution of Mechanical Engineers India, an Indian
engineering society

Science and Technology

Input method editor, a program or operating system
component that allows computer users to enter
characters and symbols not found on their keyboard
In-Movie Experience, a content channel for providing
bonus material on HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc Intron Mediated
Enhancement, a biological process by which some intron
sequences can enhance gene expression

Entertainment

I Mother Earth, an alternative rock band from Canada

https://www.google.com/#q=acronym+ime

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 3:19:15 PM UTC-7, Michael wrote:
I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?



Mike

Temp is one issue. Cedar should be fine with yellow glue as long as it is kiln or air dried to lumber status. However, yellow glue depends on pressure as part of the curing process. Otherwise there is no assurance you get much bond. Sounds like no pressure in this situation. I would use something like system 3 T-88 epoxy. No pressure required per-se.

On Wednesday, September 18, 2013 11:13:06 AM UTC-5, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 3:19:15 PM UTC-7, Michael wrote:

I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?







Mike



Temp is one issue. Cedar should be fine with yellow glue as long as it is kiln or air dried to lumber status. However, yellow glue depends on pressure as part of the curing process. Otherwise there is no assurance you get much bond. Sounds like no pressure in this situation. I would use something like system 3 T-88 epoxy. No pressure required per-se.

Thanks. I'm going to make another joint, bring it in the house, and clamp up a little bit. I do not enjoy working with gorilla glue.

On 9/18/13 11:13 AM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 3:19:15 PM UTC-7, Michael wrote:
I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last
night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it
failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively
new. I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because
the joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it
resistant to yellow wood glue?



Mike

Temp is one issue. Cedar should be fine with yellow glue as long as
it is kiln or air dried to lumber status. However, yellow glue
depends on pressure as part of the curing process. Otherwise there
is no assurance you get much bond. Sounds like no pressure in this
situation. I would use something like system 3 T-88 epoxy. No
pressure required per-se.


I just un-clamped some cedar boards that I edged glued into panels for
shelves.
They were very dry boards on which I ripped fresh edges and joined,
three-wide, with regular yellow Elmers carpenter glue, tightly clamped
with good parallel clamps.

First inspection: everything is normal, glue is dried and boards are
staying together, tightly.
I'll report back if anything changes.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/17/2013 10:38 PM, Michael wrote:
On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:52:25 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Michael wrote:



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last

night. I hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it

failed! The temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new.

I didn't clamp it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the

joint was fairly tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it

resistant to yellow wood glue?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

woodchucker wrote:



It's an oily wood. Try cleaning with Acetone first, or using epoxy.

----------------------------------------------------------



Michael wrote:



Thanks, Jeff. I'll give epoxy a shot.

----------------------------------------------------

Epoxy doesn't like 45F.



Try to maintain at least 65F until the epoxy kicks.



BTW, you also want to clean with acetone first.



Lew

Will acetone help yellow glue set, or is yellow glue just not an option?

Acetone will cleanup the oils so that you get a good bond.
Yellow will work , just wipe with aceton, let it air dry 1 minute or 2
then glue.. either yellow or epoxy. Like Lew said low temps are
generally not good for any glue..

--
Jeff

"Michael" wrote in message
...

I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I
hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps
went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but
you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've
rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?

I've not had problems gluing eastern red cedar (juniper)... I cut the trees
down, sawed them, dried the boards for 1-8 years before use, and glued them
with yellow glue.

A question/thought.

Was the dry joint tight enough that it could have essentially wiped the glue
off as the pieces were pressed together during assembly?

I'm thinking that if the dry fit was tight and the wood very dry that
perhaps you needed to apply glue to all glue surfaces of both boards so that
glue was in fact in the joint when it was pressed together. By coating all
surfaces of both boards the glue would have time to soak in to both boards a
bit prior to assembly and not leave you with a glue starved joint.

John

On Wednesday, September 18, 2013 7:15:48 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Michael" wrote in message

...



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I

hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps

went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but

you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've

rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?



I've not had problems gluing eastern red cedar (juniper)... I cut the trees

down, sawed them, dried the boards for 1-8 years before use, and glued them

with yellow glue.



A question/thought.



Was the dry joint tight enough that it could have essentially wiped the glue

off as the pieces were pressed together during assembly?



I'm thinking that if the dry fit was tight and the wood very dry that

perhaps you needed to apply glue to all glue surfaces of both boards so that

glue was in fact in the joint when it was pressed together. By coating all

surfaces of both boards the glue would have time to soak in to both boards a

bit prior to assembly and not leave you with a glue starved joint.



John

Hi John,

That's a great point. I'm going to try acetone, warmer temps, and more and better spread glue. Appreciate the input from everyone.

Mike

"Michael" wrote:
Hi John,

That's a great point. I'm going to try acetone, warmer temps, and
more and better spread glue. Appreciate the input from everyone.

-------------------------------------------------------
Given proper surface prep, properly fitted joints, adequate clamping,
and temps above 60F, about the only real advantage of epoxy over
yellow glue is open pot time.

Yellow glue has about 10 minutes at best while laminating epoxy with
slow hardener has at least 25 min at 77F.

Glad to see you learned your lesson about Gorilla glue.

IMHO, it is garbage.

Have fun.

Lew

On 9/18/13 1:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I just un-clamped some cedar boards that I edged glued into panels
for shelves. They were very dry boards on which I ripped fresh edges
and joined, three-wide, with regular yellow Elmers carpenter glue,
tightly clamped with good parallel clamps.

First inspection: everything is normal, glue is dried and boards are
staying together, tightly. I'll report back if anything changes.



FWIW, I took some cut-off sections of the joined shelf boards I made and
bent then until they broke. They broke in the middle of the board and
not at the glue joint, as I've experienced with every other species with
which I've done this same experiment.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 19:08:08 -0700 (PDT), Michael
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 18, 2013 7:15:48 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Michael" wrote in message

...



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I

hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The temps

went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp it but

you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly tight. I've

rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood glue?



I've not had problems gluing eastern red cedar (juniper)... I cut the trees

down, sawed them, dried the boards for 1-8 years before use, and glued them

with yellow glue.



A question/thought.



Was the dry joint tight enough that it could have essentially wiped the glue

off as the pieces were pressed together during assembly?



I'm thinking that if the dry fit was tight and the wood very dry that

perhaps you needed to apply glue to all glue surfaces of both boards so that

glue was in fact in the joint when it was pressed together. By coating all

surfaces of both boards the glue would have time to soak in to both boards a

bit prior to assembly and not leave you with a glue starved joint.



John

Hi John,

That's a great point. I'm going to try acetone, warmer temps, and more and better spread glue. Appreciate the input from everyone.

Mike

I bought a flat bed load of western (mill pond) cedar back in the late
70's and I still have some. I've used both epoxy and titebond and
never had problems. It was all rough lumber so was always jointed and
planed prior to gluing. Never used acetone and always had good luck
cedar will definitely break before the glue joint. More then likely
the low temperature is at fault.

Mike M

"Michael" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 9:39:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 15:19:15 -0700 (PDT), Michael

wrote:



I made some test finger joints out of cedar and glued them last night. I
hand-planed the joint today to see how it looked and it failed! The
temps went to 45 last night. The glue is relatively new. I didn't clamp
it but you had to wriggle in the piece because the joint was fairly
tight. I've rarely worked with cedar. Is it resistant to yellow wood
glue?



Mike

Fresh unweathered cedar is "resistant" to most glues. Polyurethanes

like "gorilla glue" work inmany cases - and wiping down with acetone

before gluing can help as it removes the natural oil from the

surface/fibers. The right moisture content (less than about 15%, but

not too dry (like less than 5%) will let normal wood glues cure

properly

I think this might be a case of really dry cedar. I got several wide
boards free from someone who was cleaning out his shed and wanted to get
rid of them. They had obviously been there a while. I thought I would make
a few boxes out of them, but the gluing issue might make this a series of
cumbersome projects.

I have been gluing western red cedar for years with yellow glue and urethane
glue. Never had a problem. But keep it warm for the first 24 hours.

Try roughing up with glasspaper, keeping away from the edges, gives
you a strong key for the glue.

Wipe down with acetone, allow to dry then apply glue