Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...76860615491346

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...20111165777202

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...12963237689426

Onward with the seat frames and upholstery ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote
Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:

74 degrees???? 74 degrees????

I had to run an errand today, in the afternoon. I started up the windshield
wipers to clear a little frost. A big chunk of ice clung to the wiper
blades and crashed into the bottom of each stroke. It went squeak, squeak,
CRASH! It did that a number of times till the ice broke off. It sure as
hell wasn't 74 degrees here today!

Bar stools look nice.

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:23:55 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:

Good gluing weather, but too dang hot and muggy to do much else,
I ran the AC most of the day.


https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/
EWoodShopMissionBarStool#5832576860615491346

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/
EWoodShopMissionBarStool#5832320111165777202

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/
EWoodShopMissionBarStool#5832612963237689426

Onward with the seat frames and upholstery ...

Stools look good, Leather?

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 20:20:14 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:



"Swingman" wrote
Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:

74 degrees???? 74 degrees????

I had to run an errand today, in the afternoon. I started up the windshield
wipers to clear a little frost. A big chunk of ice clung to the wiper
blades and crashed into the bottom of each stroke. It went squeak, squeak,
CRASH! It did that a number of times till the ice broke off. It sure as
hell wasn't 74 degrees here today!

Bar stools look nice.

No kidding here in Wa. where I am it got up to 29F. However it's
still 65F in the shop.

Mike M

"Swingman" wrote:

Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been
too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:
---------------------------------------------------------
"Lee Michaels" wrote:

74 degrees???? 74 degrees????

I had to run an errand today, in the afternoon. I started up the
windshield
wipers to clear a little frost. A big chunk of ice clung to the
wiper
blades and crashed into the bottom of each stroke. It went squeak,
squeak,
CRASH! It did that a number of times till the ice broke off. It
sure as
hell wasn't 74 degrees here today!

Bar stools look nice.
------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike M" wrote:

No kidding here in Wa. where I am it got up to 29F. However it's
still 65F in the shop.
-------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, it was warmer in Cleveland, OH than it was here in SoCal.

It is 40F outside my window as this is typed.

Expected to drop into the mid 30's over night here and in the downtown
area.

Forecast to be as low as 5F in the mountains.

The fruit crops are still hanging on the trees and are in jeopardy.

28F for a few hours and the crops are history.

THIS SUCKS!!!!

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote:

Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been
too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:
---------------------------------------------------------
"Lee Michaels" wrote:

74 degrees???? 74 degrees????

I had to run an errand today, in the afternoon. I started up the
windshield
wipers to clear a little frost. A big chunk of ice clung to the
wiper
blades and crashed into the bottom of each stroke. It went squeak,
squeak,
CRASH! It did that a number of times till the ice broke off. It
sure as
hell wasn't 74 degrees here today!

Bar stools look nice.
------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike M" wrote:

No kidding here in Wa. where I am it got up to 29F. However it's
still 65F in the shop.
-------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, it was warmer in Cleveland, OH than it was here in SoCal.

It is 40F outside my window as this is typed.

Expected to drop into the mid 30's over night here and in the downtown
area.

Forecast to be as low as 5F in the mountains.

The fruit crops are still hanging on the trees and are in jeopardy.

28F for a few hours and the crops are history.

THIS SUCKS!!!!

Lew

Global warming.

Swingman wrote in
:

Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been
too cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...hopMissionBarS
tool#5832576860615491346

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...hopMissionBarS
tool#5832320111165777202

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...hopMissionBarS
tool#5832612963237689426

Onward with the seat frames and upholstery ...


Looking great!!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Really nice work. So what do you consider an acceptable temperature
for gluing? And for how long?

My bookcases may be at that stage in a few weeks, and I live in NYC.
It hasn't been that cold yet this winter, and my garage is warmed by
the heat pipe that runs through it. It's not nearly as warm as the
house though; I'm guessing 50 or a little below that on a very cold
day. I've occasionally used a space heater so I can work in
shirtsleeves, but the heater is not the sort that I would allow to run
unattended. Which reminds me, wouldn't one of those oil-filled
electric "radiators" allow a serious woodworker like yourself to work
whenever you like?

On Jan 12, 12:23*pm, Swingman wrote:
Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...dShopMissionBa...

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...dShopMissionBa...

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...dShopMissionBa...

Onward with the seat frames and upholstery ...

--
eWoodShop:www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop:http://www.e-WoodShop.nethttps://plu.../by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:19:49 -0600, Leon wrote:

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote:

Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been
too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:
---------------------------------------------------------
"Lee Michaels" wrote:

74 degrees???? 74 degrees????

I had to run an errand today, in the afternoon. I started up the
windshield
wipers to clear a little frost. A big chunk of ice clung to the
wiper
blades and crashed into the bottom of each stroke. It went squeak,
squeak,
CRASH! It did that a number of times till the ice broke off. It
sure as
hell wasn't 74 degrees here today!

Bar stools look nice.
------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike M" wrote:

No kidding here in Wa. where I am it got up to 29F. However it's
still 65F in the shop.
-------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, it was warmer in Cleveland, OH than it was here in SoCal.

It is 40F outside my window as this is typed.

Expected to drop into the mid 30's over night here and in the downtown
area.

Forecast to be as low as 5F in the mountains.

The fruit crops are still hanging on the trees and are in jeopardy.

28F for a few hours and the crops are history.

THIS SUCKS!!!!

Lew

Global warming.

Warming, it's 19 F this morning. I don't buy into the Global Warming
panic as the climate has always warmed and cooled. On the other hand
most animals don't soil where they sleep. I think we should be better
stewards of our enviorment.

Mike M

On 1/13/2013 9:57 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Really nice work.

Thank you!

So what do you consider an acceptable temperature
for gluing? And for how long?

Depends upon the glue. The below is strictly my experience with the
glues I use the most:

With PVA's there should be a chalk temperature published for the
particular glue. For example, Franklin's Titebond III has a CT of 47F,
but for critical items that have good deal of joint stress, like chairs,
I prefer not use it below 60F, and then only on parts where a mechanical
fastener of some type is used in combination. For critical parts with
PVA's and as a general rule, I prefer 65F+, 70F+ if possible.

Keep in mind that, with the PVA's as with most glues, your open/assembly
time will be decreased as the temperature is increased, so there is a
sweet spot where you can use the ambient temperature of the shop, the
glue in the bottle, and the material (all factors which need to be taken
into consideration) to your advantage for complicated glue-ups.

With plastic resin glues, which I mainly use when doing curved/veneered
pieces, the temperature range is even narrower. I prefer not use a
plastic resin glue below 65F, preferably on the higher side. (for
veneering work, you can always throw an electric blanket over the piece
being glued)

Polyurethane glues, which I rarely use, you're pretty much good above
50F. I don't like them, for no particular reason except that I've always
distrusted the hype. Might well be a case of shame on me, but so be it.

In a nutshell, and depending upon the glue being used, I prefer not to
do critical glue-ups if the temperature of the wood, material, and glue
has not been at an ambient room temperature of 60F+ for 24 hours.

Problem here is that it might be 32F in the shop at 3AM, and 65F at noon
that same day. Even keeping your glue bottle inside a warmer
environment, the material may not be, at or above, the desired "room
temperature" for 24 hours.

YMMV ...

Note: if you really want the best of all worlds, longest open/assembly
times, and application temperature range, use hot hide glue.

I personally find hide glue inconvenient, fussy and, being grade
dependent for the purpose, subject to the honesty of the purveyor. I
probably would prefer to use nothing but, however the other glue choices
are simply too convenient in this fast paced world we have to deal with.
Sad ... but true ... again, may well be shame on me.


Which reminds me, wouldn't one of those oil-filled
electric "radiators" allow a serious woodworker like yourself to work
whenever you like?

I tried to use one of those in a construction trailer on the job site
out in the country of Jan 2010 ... it was total joke.

I don't like the idea of the unattended part of the 24 hour cycle needed
to keep the shop and material at the proper temperature with
propane/kerosene type heaters; and 240v electric heaters of the various
types are expensive to operate for the BTU output necessary to do the
job, and not cost effective because we simply don't have that many cold
days where gluing is a necessity to justify the expense.

I just live with what mother nature deals at the time, just as the
woodworkers who came long before us did ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/13/2013 10:38 AM, Mike M wrote:
Warming, it's 19 F this morning. I don't buy into the Global Warming
panic as the climate has always warmed and cooled. On the other hand
most animals don't soil where they sleep. I think we should be better
stewards of our enviorment.

WARNING: the guy who turns this thread into a AGW argument is going to
be tracked down, glued and bradded to his work bench with Gorilla Glue
and a $14 HF nail gun, and tortured with used Home Depot saw blades from
the dumpster on a construction site!



--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/13/13 11:20 AM, Swingman wrote:

Polyurethane glues, which I rarely use, you're pretty much good above
50F. I don't like them, for no particular reason except that I've always
distrusted the hype. Might well be a case of shame on me, but so be it.


I think the only hype that should not be believed is the "strength" part.
Blame that on the "Gorilla" branding. Everything else lives up to the
hype, waterproof, bonds almost anything to almost anything else.
But yeah, for woodworking I can't think of any task for which regular
PVA or Titebond III wouldn't perform a whole bunch better or for which I
wouldn't choose epoxy over poly.

It's like that ond baseball scout joke where he describes a bad player...
"He can't hit, but he's slow."

With poly glues, "It ain't strong, but it's messy." :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 01/13/2013 10:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:38 AM, Mike M wrote:
Warming, it's 19 F this morning. I don't buy into the Global Warming
panic as the climate has always warmed and cooled. On the other hand
most animals don't soil where they sleep. I think we should be better
stewards of our enviorment.

WARNING: the guy who turns this thread into a AGW argument is going to
be tracked down, glued and bradded to his work bench with Gorilla Glue
and a $14 HF nail gun, and tortured with used Home Depot saw blades from
the dumpster on a construction site!



Howabout pigeons crapping in their nest thread?


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:46:02 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/13/2013 10:38 AM, Mike M wrote:
Warming, it's 19 F this morning. I don't buy into the Global Warming
panic as the climate has always warmed and cooled. On the other hand
most animals don't soil where they sleep. I think we should be better
stewards of our enviorment.

WARNING: the guy who turns this thread into a AGW argument is going to
be tracked down, glued and bradded to his work bench with Gorilla Glue
and a $14 HF nail gun, and tortured with used Home Depot saw blades from
the dumpster on a construction site!



Warning noted 8-) That's about my entire comment on that subject so I
don't need to say any more.

On Jan 13, 12:20*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/13/2013 9:57 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Really nice work.

Thank you!

* So what do you consider an acceptable temperature

for gluing? *And for how long?

Depends upon the glue. The below is strictly my experience with the
glues I use the most:

Well, as usual, I have gotten answers to questions I hadn't thought to
ask, which I will store in my extra cans of worms.

With PVA's there should be a chalk temperature published for the
particular glue. For example, Franklin's Titebond III has a CT of 47F,
but for critical items that have good deal of joint stress, like chairs,
I prefer not use it below 60F, and then only on parts where a mechanical
fastener of some type is used in combination. For critical parts with
PVA's and as a general rule, I prefer 65F+, 70F+ if possible.

I've got Titebond Original. The chalk temperature (anyone know the
derivation of the term?) is listed as "approximately 50".

Keep in mind that, with the PVA's as with most glues, your open/assembly
time will be decreased as the temperature is increased,

I have just read that the open time for "original" is less than the
others. I wonder if that will matter in my application. I'll be
putting 5 horizontals into 10 dadoes in two verticals. I'm hardly
quick about anything in woodworking, but that doesn't sound like it
will take too long.

so there is a
sweet spot where you can use the ambient temperature of the shop, the
glue in the bottle, and the material (all factors which need to be taken
into consideration) to your advantage for complicated glue-ups.

"The material". That makes perfect sense, now that you've pointed it
out, but I doubt that I'd have thought of it myself. I guess I could
take the pieces into he house for a day.



In a nutshell, and depending upon the glue being used, I prefer not to
do critical glue-ups if the temperature of the wood, material, and glue
has not been at an ambient room temperature of 60F+ for 24 hours.

I doubt that I can keep my garage (safely) at that temperature in the
winter without a heater that I don't yet own. But I can quickly heat
it up to 70. The wood and glue could live in the house for a day or
two prior to glue-up.

Problem here is that it might be 32F in the shop at 3AM, and 65F at noon
that same day. Even keeping your glue bottle inside a warmer
environment, the material may not be, at or above, the desired "room
temperature" for 24 hours.


Which reminds me, wouldn't one of those oil-filled
electric "radiators" allow a serious woodworker like yourself to work
whenever you like?

I tried to use one of those in a construction trailer on the job site
out in the country of Jan 2010 ... it was total joke.

My garage, but for the one glaring flaw (the door) is as well
insulated as the rest of the house, so it doesn't take much to get it
warm. The heater I have - an ancient device that is sort of a cross
between a toaster, a fun-house mirror and a fan - is not one I would
trust overnight.

I don't like the idea of the unattended part of the 24 hour cycle needed
to keep the shop and material at the proper temperature with
propane/kerosene type heaters;

I would never consider those.

and 240v electric heaters of the various
types are expensive to operate for the BTU output necessary to do the
job, and not cost effective because we simply don't have that many cold
days where gluing is a necessity to justify the expense.

The heater I have - an ancient device that is sort of a cross between
a toaster, a fun-house mirror and a fan - is not one I would trust
overnight. It's 110V.

I just live with what mother nature deals at the time, just as the
woodworkers who came long before us did ...

They were pretty advanced; everything was cordless.

Greg Guarino wrote:

I've got Titebond Original. The chalk temperature (anyone know the
derivation of the term?) is listed as "approximately 50".

From Franklin:

"When glue dries, the loss of water pulls the adhesive particles together
with enough force to form a continuous film. If the drying temperature is
below a critical point, water evaporation is not sufficient to pull the
particles together, leaving them in the joint. The dried film in the joint
will appear whiter than normal. This is known as "chalking" and the
critical temperature is the "chalk temperature." When chalking occurs, the
glued joint loses strength and could result in a failed bond."

*Chalk temperature indicates the lowest recommended temperature at which
the glue, air and materials can be during application, to assure a good
bond.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:23:55 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...76860615491346

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...20111165777202

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...12963237689426

Beautiful! How did you make the (curved) backs?

Onward with the seat frames and upholstery ...

Pictures?

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 20:20:14 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:



"Swingman" wrote
Weather finally got right to finish these bar stools ... simply been too
cold the past few weeks to do a critical glue-up in the shop.

74F and last two now sitting in clamps, as we speak:

74 degrees???? 74 degrees????

I had to run an errand today, in the afternoon. I started up the windshield
wipers to clear a little frost. A big chunk of ice clung to the wiper
blades and crashed into the bottom of each stroke. It went squeak, squeak,
CRASH! It did that a number of times till the ice broke off. It sure as
hell wasn't 74 degrees here today!

It was colder here, too. Only 73F today.

Bar stools look nice.

An understatement, though I'm partial to the style.

WARNING: the guy who turns this thread into a AGW argument is going to
be tracked down, glued and bradded to his work bench with Gorilla Glue
and a $14 HF nail gun, and tortured with used Home Depot saw blades from
the dumpster on a construction site!


GORILLA GLUE?????? SWEAR TO GAWD?

It'll never hold once the global environment heats up.

On 1/13/2013 7:33 PM, wrote:

Beautiful! How did you make the (curved) backs?

Thank you ... cut them out with a bandsaw:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...38318036909666

Continue to scroll right half a dozen photos or so.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:57:28 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/13/2013 7:33 PM, wrote:

Beautiful! How did you make the (curved) backs?

Thank you ... cut them out with a bandsaw:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...38318036909666

Continue to scroll right half a dozen photos or so.

Thanks! They didn't look cut, rather bent.

You just answered a dozen questions for me. ...like how to cut the
mortises on an angle. A: You don't. ;-)

Pictures of the upholstery process would be appreciated, too. Again,
great stuff! Some day...

"Leon" wrote:

Global warming.
-----------------------------------
Is for real.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Leon" wrote:

Global warming.
-----------------------------------
Is for real.

Lew

And those that believe that are actually gullible enough to believe that
the earth should not be warming. Since when is global cooling better for
food production? Think the farmers care when their crops freeze?

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:34:45 -0600, Leon wrote:
And those that believe that are actually gullible enough to believe that
the earth should not be warming. Since when is global cooling better for
food production? Think the farmers care when their crops freeze?

It's not that global warming exists, it's the rate that it's happening
and the rate of increase caused by humanity.

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:34:45 -0600, Leon wrote:
And those that believe that are actually gullible enough to believe
that the earth should not be warming. Since when is global cooling
better for food production? Think the farmers care when their crops
freeze?

It's not that global warming exists, it's the rate that it's happening
and the rate of increase caused by humanity.

I have no real stand on the issue (mainly because it's too hard to sort
through the rhetoric from all sides), but if that is indeed true, then
wouldn't that just say that this naturally occuring event simply needs a
faster form of response (think adaptation) than if it were to simply be
allowed to occur at its own speed? In other words, might it be more
appropriate to adapt to it rather than to try to stop what may be completely
natural and unavoidable?

--

-Mike-

On 1/14/2013 5:58 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:


I have no real stand on the issue (mainly because it's too hard to sort
through the rhetoric from all sides), but if that is indeed true, then
wouldn't that just say that this naturally occuring event simply needs a
faster form of response (think adaptation) than if it were to simply be
allowed to occur at its own speed? In other words, might it be more
appropriate to adapt to it rather than to try to stop what may be completely
natural and unavoidable?


Good point, but then what would the "Do As I Say, Not As I Do"
hypocrites like Al Gore do to profit off of it? After all, he spent all
of his intelligence inventing the internetg

Note also that the preferred term has become "Climate Change" to avoid
confrontation with those nasty folk who point out any flaws in the
"Global Warming" argument.

Unquestionably Confused wrote:


Note also that the preferred term has become "Climate Change" to avoid
confrontation with those nasty folk who point out any flaws in the
"Global Warming" argument.

An equally good point. It seems to me that those with the agenda in this
matter used this tactic (renaming the issue at hand), in order to continue
to advance their agenda by attempting to remove a point of objection
(dodging it), rather than honestly re-evaluating the facts as they became
challenged. People with agendas may serve a purpose in getting discussions
started, but those agendas lose their value very quickly once discussion
begins - at least to me they do.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

Unquestionably Confused wrote:


Note also that the preferred term has become "Climate Change" to
avoid confrontation with those nasty folk who point out any flaws in
the "Global Warming" argument.

An equally good point. It seems to me that those with the agenda in
this matter used this tactic (renaming the issue at hand), in order to
continue to advance their agenda by attempting to remove a point of
objection (dodging it), rather than honestly re-evaluating the facts
as they became challenged. People with agendas may serve a purpose in
getting discussions started, but those agendas lose their value very
quickly once discussion begins - at least to me they do.

Having read some of the reputable research, I do believe that not only
there is a global increase in temperatures, but that it is happening
because of "greenhouse effects" from human activities. Yes, indeed,
climate is always changing - so what? The reason for concern is that we
arecausing it this time. And it may be a vicious cycle that once started
will be difficult to stop. Maybe a few degrees F doesn't make that much
difference to you or even to your food crops, but if all the water in the
oceans is going to warm up, that will increase the volume. Pretty soon,
that may mean Houston will be under water, as will just about every port
city in the world, unless we build sea defenses that are 20 feet or more
in height greater than what (if anything) is there now. Not this decade
perhaps, or even this century, but it will happen, according to reliable
predictions. It may be coincidence, but hereabouts (North Jersey) we
have had 3 or 4 "100-year storms" in the last few years, including Sandy,
the worst of all. It seems that Sandy was "helped" by abnormally warm
ocean waters ... So the question is how many Sandys does it take to make
you guys believers?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Han wrote:


Having read some of the reputable research, I do believe that not only
there is a global increase in temperatures, but that it is happening
because of "greenhouse effects" from human activities. Yes, indeed,
climate is always changing - so what? The reason for concern is that
we arecausing it this time.

So Han... if climate is always changing, how can it be that we are causing
it this time? You are a scientist - does that conclusion even make sense
from the standpoint of scientific observation?

And it may be a vicious cycle that once
started will be difficult to stop. Maybe a few degrees F doesn't
make that much difference to you or even to your food crops, but if
all the water in the oceans is going to warm up, that will increase
the volume.

True, but that is irrelevant to the topic at hand which is whether this is a
normal event that may (or may not be...) exacerbated by humankind.

Pretty soon, that may mean Houston will be under water,
as will just about every port city in the world, unless we build sea
defenses that are 20 feet or more in height greater than what (if
anything) is there now. Not this decade perhaps, or even this
century, but it will happen, according to reliable predictions.

Again - that is alarmist talk that is not relevant to the point at hand.

It
may be coincidence, but hereabouts (North Jersey) we have had 3 or 4
"100-year storms" in the last few years, including Sandy, the worst
of all. It seems that Sandy was "helped" by abnormally warm ocean
waters ... So the question is how many Sandys does it take to make
you guys believers?

It takes more evidence than the alarmists attempt to throw on the table, and
it takes more consesus than currently exists between equally qualified
scientific voices. Your fears are fine for you to feel comftable with, but
they aren't much more than that - your fears.

When I built my house 30-ish years ago, we commonly woke up to 3'-4' of
fresh snow in the driveway. It was just life here in this area. We have
not seen winters like that in over 10 years. Over the past few years our
winters have been unusually mild with last year being a record (or near
record) low in snowfall. This year is shaping up to be similar so far.
So - 30 years ago we were all in a wad about global cooling and if we had
rushed off with the fears and anxieties of the moment, picking and chosing
the scientific theories we wanted to subscribe to, we would have charged off
doing something. Well - here we are a short time in history later, and we
are facing the exact opposite conditions.

I prefer to let the alarmist voices that draw premature conclusions based on
no consensus at all within the expert community, such as yours, content
themselves with wringing their hands and crying that the sky is falling. As
for me - I just don't know, and that's because brighter minds than my own in
this whole matter, don't know.

--

-Mike-

On 1/13/2013 10:53 PM, wrote:

You just answered a dozen questions for me. ...like how to cut the
mortises on an angle. A: You don't.;-)

I devised that particular jig for cutting mortises in chair back rails
for the Multi-Router seven years ago, and it easily allows compound
angles for mortises if need be.

Here's another way I do it with a plunge router base:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Mis...rCrestJig6.JPG

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Mis...rCrestJig7.JPG

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/13/2013 11:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/13/2013 10:38 AM, Mike M wrote:
Warming, it's 19 F this morning. I don't buy into the Global Warming
panic as the climate has always warmed and cooled. On the other hand
most animals don't soil where they sleep. I think we should be better
stewards of our enviorment.

WARNING: the guy who turns this thread into a AGW argument is going to
be tracked down, glued and bradded to his work bench with Gorilla Glue
and a $14 HF nail gun, and tortured with used Home Depot saw blades from
the dumpster on a construction site!

See what I mean ... it only takes on innocuous remark and the childish
commentards swing into immediate action, believing with their little pea
brains that they can pound Google vomit into their keyboards and change
another ****tards mind.

Get a life, ****heads ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

Han wrote:


Having read some of the reputable research, I do believe that not
only there is a global increase in temperatures, but that it is
happening because of "greenhouse effects" from human activities.
Yes, indeed, climate is always changing - so what? The reason for
concern is that we arecausing it this time.

So Han... if climate is always changing, how can it be that we are
causing it this time? You are a scientist - does that conclusion even
make sense from the standpoint of scientific observation?

And it may be a vicious cycle that once
started will be difficult to stop. Maybe a few degrees F doesn't
make that much difference to you or even to your food crops, but if
all the water in the oceans is going to warm up, that will increase
the volume.

True, but that is irrelevant to the topic at hand which is whether
this is a normal event that may (or may not be...) exacerbated by
humankind.

Pretty soon, that may mean Houston will be under water,
as will just about every port city in the world, unless we build sea
defenses that are 20 feet or more in height greater than what (if
anything) is there now. Not this decade perhaps, or even this
century, but it will happen, according to reliable predictions.

Again - that is alarmist talk that is not relevant to the point at
hand.

It
may be coincidence, but hereabouts (North Jersey) we have had 3 or 4
"100-year storms" in the last few years, including Sandy, the worst
of all. It seems that Sandy was "helped" by abnormally warm ocean
waters ... So the question is how many Sandys does it take to make
you guys believers?

It takes more evidence than the alarmists attempt to throw on the
table, and it takes more consesus than currently exists between
equally qualified scientific voices. Your fears are fine for you to
feel comftable with, but they aren't much more than that - your fears.

When I built my house 30-ish years ago, we commonly woke up to 3'-4'
of fresh snow in the driveway. It was just life here in this area.
We have not seen winters like that in over 10 years. Over the past
few years our winters have been unusually mild with last year being a
record (or near record) low in snowfall. This year is shaping up to
be similar so far.
So - 30 years ago we were all in a wad about global cooling and if we
had
rushed off with the fears and anxieties of the moment, picking and
chosing the scientific theories we wanted to subscribe to, we would
have charged off doing something. Well - here we are a short time in
history later, and we are facing the exact opposite conditions.

I prefer to let the alarmist voices that draw premature conclusions
based on no consensus at all within the expert community, such as
yours, content themselves with wringing their hands and crying that
the sky is falling. As for me - I just don't know, and that's because
brighter minds than my own in this whole matter, don't know.

Mike, there is an important difference between global climate and local
weather. What the people you call alarmists are saying is that the
global climate is warming. You're right, it has happened before, but
generally on geological time scales - thousands of years. Of course
there have been ups and downs, and what you describe in your driveway's
snow accumulations may be like that. Little ice ages and warm periods,
the little ice ages sometimes due to volcanic eruptions such as Krakatao.
The "alarmists" are saying this is different, and the science backs them
up. Recently a scientist who very much doubted the theories went on a
project to disprove the alarmists, and came back being convinced. More
recently, in at least some places in Antarctica and Greenland, it appears
that the ice is melting faster, and sliding towards the sea faster, than
most people had been predicting. Read this kitchen counter experiment
you can do yourself (sorry if it wraps)
http://tinyurl.com/auxqx7a
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-science-home-
sealevel-rise

Obviously this won't happen in antarctica all at once, but even a small
fraction of 60 meters is a lot (60 meters is about 200 feet). I live 15
miles inland from New York City at elevation of ~67 feet.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 1/14/2013 8:47 AM, Han wrote:

Mike, there is an important difference between global climate and local

Don't look now, Han, but your button just got purposely pushed by those
who could give a **** about the woodworking part of rec.woodworking.

Wise up ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 14 Jan 2013 13:34:11 GMT, Han wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

Unquestionably Confused wrote:


Note also that the preferred term has become "Climate Change" to
avoid confrontation with those nasty folk who point out any flaws in
the "Global Warming" argument.

An equally good point. It seems to me that those with the agenda in
this matter used this tactic (renaming the issue at hand), in order to
continue to advance their agenda by attempting to remove a point of
objection (dodging it), rather than honestly re-evaluating the facts
as they became challenged. People with agendas may serve a purpose in
getting discussions started, but those agendas lose their value very
quickly once discussion begins - at least to me they do.

Having read some of the reputable research, I do believe that not only
there is a global increase in temperatures, but that it is happening
because of "greenhouse effects" from human activities. Yes, indeed,
climate is always changing - so what? The reason for concern is that we
arecausing it this time. And it may be a vicious cycle that once started
will be difficult to stop. Maybe a few degrees F doesn't make that much
difference to you or even to your food crops, but if all the water in the
oceans is going to warm up, that will increase the volume. Pretty soon,
that may mean Houston will be under water, as will just about every port
city in the world, unless we build sea defenses that are 20 feet or more
in height greater than what (if anything) is there now. Not this decade
perhaps, or even this century, but it will happen, according to reliable
predictions.

Oh, my! You'll lose most of Manhattan when all the snow in the world
melts, won't you? What to do, what to do?

Let's all watch "Waterworld" so we'll know how to live ATM!
(After The Melt)


It may be coincidence, but hereabouts (North Jersey) we
have had 3 or 4 "100-year storms" in the last few years, including Sandy,
the worst of all. It seems that Sandy was "helped" by abnormally warm
ocean waters ... So the question is how many Sandys does it take to make
you guys believers?

Y'mean the guys who say "Hey, we can live in flood zones as long as
insurance bails us out every year."

LJ--still not A True Believer in AGWK.

--
Believe nothing.
No matter where you read it,
Or who said it,
Even if I have said it,
Unless it agrees with your own reason
And your own common sense.
-- Buddha

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 06:58:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
appropriate to adapt to it rather than to try to stop what may be completely
natural and unavoidable?

Well, people like Al Gore notwithstanding, I am of the opinion that
man makes a significant contribution to this warming of the earth.

Now, if you want to argue the existence of man makes it inevitable
that warming will occur, then there's not much I can offer in
rebuttal.

Like the other creatures on this planet, man is simply a creation of
nature. However, unlike the other creatures on this planet, we have
the realization of what we're doing and quite possibly the knowledge
to change what we're doing.

Whether we let our dominant species attitude get in the way of
changing our global warming actions or not is something else entirely.
Personally, as species, I think we're too arrogant for most of us to
make a constructive change in how we treat this planet.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:38:05 -0600, Swingman wrote:
Here's another way I do it with a plunge router base:
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Mis...rCrestJig6.JPG
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Mis...rCrestJig7.JPG

You don't sleep much do you? Time and time again you offer up pictures
of something you're building. I've got to say, you and Leon seem to be
some of the most prodigious carpenters I've ever seen.

The only explanation I can come up with is someone has spiked your
Texas water with some type of workaholic chemical.

On 1/14/2013 9:46 AM, Dave wrote:

You don't sleep much do you? Time and time again you offer up pictures
of something you're building. I've got to say, you and Leon seem to be
some of the most prodigious carpenters I've ever seen.

The only explanation I can come up with is someone has spiked your
Texas water with some type of workaholic chemical.

Yeah ... it's called "woodworking", which, when the "Subject" above does
NOT contain "OT" (by popular and considerate usage/convention) is
supposedly the subject of this little gathering, eh?

BTW, wait until you see what Leon is working on now. Got a SU preview
Saturday and I'm envious ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/14/2013 4:22 AM, Dave wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:34:45 -0600, Leon wrote:
And those that believe that are actually gullible enough to believe that
the earth should not be warming. Since when is global cooling better for
food production? Think the farmers care when their crops freeze?

It's not that global warming exists, it's the rate that it's happening
and the rate of increase caused by humanity.



So what brought us out of the "ice age"

On 1/14/2013 10:07 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/14/2013 9:46 AM, Dave wrote:

You don't sleep much do you? Time and time again you offer up pictures
of something you're building. I've got to say, you and Leon seem to be
some of the most prodigious carpenters I've ever seen.

The only explanation I can come up with is someone has spiked your
Texas water with some type of workaholic chemical.

Yeah ... it's called "woodworking", which, when the "Subject" above does
NOT contain "OT" (by popular and considerate usage/convention) is
supposedly the subject of this little gathering, eh?

BTW, wait until you see what Leon is working on now. Got a SU preview
Saturday and I'm envious ...


LOL Well not the same degree of difficulty as in your previous set of
chairs and the current set. Hopefully it will be as successful as your
master piece set of chairs. Ill start a new thread so as to hopefully
not hijack this one. ;`)

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 1/14/2013 4:22 AM, Dave wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:34:45 -0600, Leon wrote:
And those that believe that are actually gullible enough to believe that
the earth should not be warming. Since when is global cooling better for
food production? Think the farmers care when their crops freeze?

It's not that global warming exists, it's the rate that it's happening
and the rate of increase caused by humanity.



So what brought us out of the "ice age"

Milankovitch cycles.

There's little doubt that the planet has warmed in the past
100 years. It is the magnitude of the warming and the cause of
the warming that disputed. There is little reliable data prior
to 1900 for surface and sea-surface temperatures. There is little
data prior to 1970 regarding sea-ice extent and area.

As for Han's 20-foot seawalls in Houston, one must realize that even
were 100% of the sea ice (e.g. arctic ice) to melt, sea-level wouldn't change. For sea-level
to rise substantially, glacial ice and landborne ice (e.g. the Greenland and Antarctica
ice caps) would need to melt. The best estimates are that the
Antarctica ice cap would take several thousand years to melt completely at
a much higher temperature that even the IPCC predicts for the next hundred
years or so (and their predictions have been much higher than has actually
been observed since the first and second IPCC reports).

Sea level is a function of the temperature of the water (water expands as
it warms), isostatic rebound (much shoreline is still rebounding from the
ice cover in the last ice age), wind/currents (sea level is higher on windward side
than leeward side), fresh-water influx, glacial melting et alia.