After billing for first 3 months of 2012, here are the results:

kWh(solar) Elec$ (total/elect) Bank (on/off)
January: 819 $32.04/$5.63 105/0
February: 945 $24.07/$3.11 278/0
March: 987 thru 3/27 $18.79/$0.08 525/0

The electricity charges are total including taxes and fees over just
electricity charges. All electric charges so far was for off peak
hours. The bank is total annual on peak kWh/off peak kWh. The taxes
and fees include:

Basic service charge
delivery service charge
environmental service charge
federal environmental service charge
system benefits charge
power supply adjustment
metering
meter reading
billing
federal transmission and ancillary services
federal transmission cost adjustment
system benefits adjustment
regulatory assessment
state sales tax
county sales tax
city sales tax
franchise fee

For March, the cost of actual electricity was 8 cents and the taxes and
fees was $18.71.

All in all, we are saving $25 - $30/month over the same months compared
to the past two years. This includes the $93/month solar lease fee.

We have 525 kWh banked for the coming AC season.

All in all, happy campers!


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:45:06 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

After billing for first 3 months of 2012, here are the results:

kWh(solar) Elec$ (total/elect) Bank (on/off)
January: 819 $32.04/$5.63 105/0
February: 945 $24.07/$3.11 278/0
March: 987 thru 3/27 $18.79/$0.08 525/0

The electricity charges are total including taxes and fees over just
electricity charges. All electric charges so far was for off peak
hours. The bank is total annual on peak kWh/off peak kWh. The taxes
and fees include:

Basic service charge
delivery service charge
environmental service charge
federal environmental service charge
system benefits charge
power supply adjustment
metering
meter reading
billing
federal transmission and ancillary services
federal transmission cost adjustment
system benefits adjustment
regulatory assessment
state sales tax
county sales tax
city sales tax
franchise fee

For March, the cost of actual electricity was 8 cents and the taxes and
fees was $18.71.

All in all, we are saving $25 - $30/month over the same months compared
to the past two years. This includes the $93/month solar lease fee.

We have 525 kWh banked for the coming AC season.

All in all, happy campers!

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

However, any excess power we generate is banked in the grid for our use
before we slurp power from the utility. Takes a special meter in
addition to the solar meter to keep track of things.

However, I'm thinking of putting two 120W panels on the 5th wheel to
keep the batteries charged.



--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:39:29 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

A grid-tied relay could easily prevent that. Googling "guy fieri".
Hmm, -nobody's- hair should look like Guy Fieri's.

I'm only paying $32-47/mo for electricity, so the $96/mo lease fee
wouldn't be feasible for me.


However, any excess power we generate is banked in the grid for our use
before we slurp power from the utility. Takes a special meter in
addition to the solar meter to keep track of things.

Yeah, so I've heard.


However, I'm thinking of putting two 120W panels on the 5th wheel to
keep the batteries charged.

Why so much? I'm guessing that you already did the math.
Do you do a lot of wilderness camp^H^H^H^Hmobile living?
Or do you just use a lot of electricity at night?

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

On 3/27/2012 8:45 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After billing for first 3 months of 2012, here are the results:

kWh(solar) Elec$ (total/elect) Bank (on/off)
January: 819 $32.04/$5.63 105/0
February: 945 $24.07/$3.11 278/0
March: 987 thru 3/27 $18.79/$0.08 525/0

The electricity charges are total including taxes and fees over just
electricity charges. All electric charges so far was for off peak hours.
The bank is total annual on peak kWh/off peak kWh. The taxes and fees
include:

Basic service charge
delivery service charge
environmental service charge
federal environmental service charge
system benefits charge
power supply adjustment
metering
meter reading
billing
federal transmission and ancillary services
federal transmission cost adjustment
system benefits adjustment
regulatory assessment
state sales tax
county sales tax
city sales tax
franchise fee

For March, the cost of actual electricity was 8 cents and the taxes and
fees was $18.71.

All in all, we are saving $25 - $30/month over the same months compared
to the past two years. This includes the $93/month solar lease fee.

We have 525 kWh banked for the coming AC season.

All in all, happy campers!




And just think, you probably would not have to have a solar supplement
if you did not have to pay all those fees!!!. ;~) Looks like a
telephone bill.

Good for you Doug! Keep us posted.

On 03/28/2012 06:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

However, I'm thinking of putting two 120W panels on the 5th wheel to
keep the batteries charged.

Why so much? I'm guessing that you already did the math.
Do you do a lot of wilderness camp^H^H^H^Hmobile living?
Or do you just use a lot of electricity at night?

I only use enough for lights to find my way to the crapper 4-5 times a
night (oh the joys of BPH). SWMBO's (aka the OverLord) electrical
footprint is somewhat larger.

240W is enough to fully recharge the 2 6V golf cart batteries after an
evening/morning of 12V lighting and 120V inverter usage - that is if the
sun shines. There's always the Honda 2000W generator in emergencies and
to annoy any neighbors.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 03/28/2012 06:03 AM, Leon wrote:
On 3/27/2012 8:45 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After billing for first 3 months of 2012, here are the results:

kWh(solar) Elec$ (total/elect) Bank (on/off)
January: 819 $32.04/$5.63 105/0
February: 945 $24.07/$3.11 278/0
March: 987 thru 3/27 $18.79/$0.08 525/0

The electricity charges are total including taxes and fees over just
electricity charges. All electric charges so far was for off peak hours.
The bank is total annual on peak kWh/off peak kWh. The taxes and fees
include:

Basic service charge
delivery service charge
environmental service charge
federal environmental service charge
system benefits charge
power supply adjustment
metering
meter reading
billing
federal transmission and ancillary services
federal transmission cost adjustment
system benefits adjustment
regulatory assessment
state sales tax
county sales tax
city sales tax
franchise fee

For March, the cost of actual electricity was 8 cents and the taxes and
fees was $18.71.

All in all, we are saving $25 - $30/month over the same months compared
to the past two years. This includes the $93/month solar lease fee.

We have 525 kWh banked for the coming AC season.

All in all, happy campers!




And just think, you probably would not have to have a solar supplement
if you did not have to pay all those fees!!!. ;~) Looks like a telephone
bill.

Yup, almost $19/month even if we don't use any juice from the grid. We
solved the phone bill taxes and fees with Vonage for a landline and
TracFones for cell usage. May even drop the landline as we only use
about $10 month apiece for TracFone and Vonage runs $17 or so a month.


Good for you Doug! Keep us posted.

Solar makes sense here in the AZ desert. Would probably make as much
sense in Texas. It also helps that we head to cooler climes in the
summer and should be banking a lot of juice. It will be interesting to
see if we have a positive balance at years end and are able to get a
check from the utility. We have already received a $400 referral from
SolarCity :-)



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

In article m,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

However, any excess power we generate is banked in the grid for our use
before we slurp power from the utility. Takes a special meter in
addition to the solar meter to keep track of things.

However, I'm thinking of putting two 120W panels on the 5th wheel to
keep the batteries charged.



--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
eb.com...
We
solved the phone bill taxes and fees with Vonage for a landline and
TracFones for cell usage. May even drop the landline as we only use
about $10 month apiece for TracFone and Vonage runs $17 or so a month.

You do realize that with a phone system like that, during any kind of
disaster situation you will be cut off with no communication, right? The
Vonage is iffy. The cell phone is guaranteed useless.

On 3/27/2012 6:45 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After billing for first 3 months of 2012, here are the results:

kWh(solar) Elec$ (total/elect) Bank (on/off)
January: 819 $32.04/$5.63 105/0
February: 945 $24.07/$3.11 278/0
March: 987 thru 3/27 $18.79/$0.08 525/0

What size space are you heating/cooling ???

That's a very small KW usage for the average house.

On 03/28/2012 07:26 AM, CW wrote:


"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
eb.com...
We
solved the phone bill taxes and fees with Vonage for a landline and
TracFones for cell usage. May even drop the landline as we only use
about $10 month apiece for TracFone and Vonage runs $17 or so a month.

You do realize that with a phone system like that, during any kind of
disaster situation you will be cut off with no communication, right? The
Vonage is iffy. The cell phone is guaranteed useless.

When we're on the road, cell will have to do. At home, I can walk the
one block to the fire station or two blocks to the hospital or three
blocks to the police dept. And then the emergency care center is behind
my house.

Besides, there aren't many floods or earthquakes or hurricanes or
whatever here in the AZ desert, just heat and dust.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 03/28/2012 07:30 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 3/27/2012 6:45 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
After billing for first 3 months of 2012, here are the results:

kWh(solar) Elec$ (total/elect) Bank (on/off)
January: 819 $32.04/$5.63 105/0
February: 945 $24.07/$3.11 278/0
March: 987 thru 3/27 $18.79/$0.08 525/0

What size space are you heating/cooling ???

That's a very small KW usage for the average house.

1850 sq ft. Heating and hot water is NG. We averaged about 1100
kWh/month for the two years before installing solar - about 500 kWh min
and 1800 kWh max. We are somewhat more careful in turning of lights etc
since. The 6kW system so far has produced:

Dec: 736kWh
Jan: 818kWh
Feb: 945kWh
Mar: 1100kWh (projected since it's currently 986+ approx 40kWh for 4
more days)

The June number should be the max and I'm guessing 1200 - 1400 kWh


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

You would also have to get approval from the power utility, city and
Solar equipment provider.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 3/28/2012 7:53 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
1850 sq ft. Heating and hot water is NG. We averaged about 1100
kWh/month for the two years before installing solar - about 500 kWh min
and 1800 kWh max. We are somewhat more careful in turning of lights etc
since. The 6kW system so far has produced:

Dec: 736kWh
Jan: 818kWh
Feb: 945kWh
Mar: 1100kWh (projected since it's currently 986+ approx 40kWh for 4
more days)

The June number should be the max and I'm guessing 1200 - 1400 kWh


Ok...that makes more sense to me now... 1100 kw is a pretty impressive
output for solar.

NG for heating and hot water really saves the $$$

Water heater, dryer and heat pumps are the big ticket items for lots of
KW's.

People are anal about the lights, but you could leave ALL the lights on
24X7 and still not burn many kw's.

Say 1000 watts a day for 30 days = 30,000 watts per month / 1000 = 30kw
x .08 = $2.40 per month for the lights. (10 100w bulbs burning 24x7)

PS: Electrical Engineers may now jump in for corrections.

"Pat Barber" wrote:

NG for heating and hot water really saves the $$$

Water heater, dryer and heat pumps are the big ticket items for lots
of KW's.

People are anal about the lights, but you could leave ALL the lights
on
24X7 and still not burn many kw's.

Say 1000 watts a day for 30 days = 30,000 watts per month / 1000 =
30kw x .08 = $2.40 per month for the lights. (10 100w bulbs burning
24x7)

PS: Electrical Engineers may now jump in for corrections.
----------------------------------
Don't forget the reefer(s).

They suck up mucho KWs.

Lew

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:33:41 -0700, Doug Winterburn wrote:

On 03/28/2012 07:26 AM, CW wrote:


"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
eb.com...
We
solved the phone bill taxes and fees with Vonage for a landline and
TracFones for cell usage. May even drop the landline as we only use
about $10 month apiece for TracFone and Vonage runs $17 or so a month.

You do realize that with a phone system like that, during any kind of
disaster situation you will be cut off with no communication, right? The
Vonage is iffy. The cell phone is guaranteed useless.

When we're on the road, cell will have to do. At home, I can walk the
one block to the fire station or two blocks to the hospital or three
blocks to the police dept. And then the emergency care center is behind
my house.

Besides, there aren't many floods or earthquakes or hurricanes or
whatever here in the AZ desert, just heat and dust.

Don't know about where you are, but in AL even a phone line that has been
had the service cancelled will still call 911.

basilisk

On 3/28/2012 8:15 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 3/28/2012 7:53 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
1850 sq ft. Heating and hot water is NG. We averaged about 1100
kWh/month for the two years before installing solar - about 500 kWh min
and 1800 kWh max. We are somewhat more careful in turning of lights etc
since. The 6kW system so far has produced:

Dec: 736kWh
Jan: 818kWh
Feb: 945kWh
Mar: 1100kWh (projected since it's currently 986+ approx 40kWh for 4
more days)

The June number should be the max and I'm guessing 1200 - 1400 kWh


Ok...that makes more sense to me now... 1100 kw is a pretty impressive
output for solar.

NG for heating and hot water really saves the $$$

Water heater, dryer and heat pumps are the big ticket items for lots of
KW's.

People are anal about the lights, but you could leave ALL the lights on
24X7 and still not burn many kw's.

Say 1000 watts a day for 30 days = 30,000 watts per month / 1000 = 30kw
x .08 = $2.40 per month for the lights. (10 100w bulbs burning 24x7)

PS: Electrical Engineers may now jump in for corrections.



if you own the system, you don't get a check. you get a credit for
future bills in the next year. i don't know what happens if you're
leasing the system.

last year i generated 14200 kwh, which resulted in a $200 credit at the
end of the year. my total charges for 2011 was $430 (including fees),
about $1650 under what i estimate i would have paid without solar. i
have a 2800 sqft house with 2 ac units, and run a couple of electric
kilns a lot, so my typical usage is higher than yours.

so far this year i've generated 2890kwh, more than i've used so i've
been generating more credits. since my bills haven't totaled 200 yet, my
1st 3 bills this year so far are $0.

you can upload your data and plot your generation at http://pvoutput.org
to compare your generation with others. my system is
http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=1569&sid=1200

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:50:38 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 03/28/2012 06:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

However, I'm thinking of putting two 120W panels on the 5th wheel to
keep the batteries charged.

Why so much? I'm guessing that you already did the math.
Do you do a lot of wilderness camp^H^H^H^Hmobile living?
Or do you just use a lot of electricity at night?

I only use enough for lights to find my way to the crapper 4-5 times a
night (oh the joys of BPH).

Condolences.


SWMBO's (aka the OverLord) electrical
footprint is somewhat larger.

Bigscreen + blow dryer?


240W is enough to fully recharge the 2 6V golf cart batteries after an
evening/morning of 12V lighting and 120V inverter usage - that is if the
sun shines.

Aha, you get up real early, too?


There's always the Honda 2000W generator in emergencies and
to annoy any neighbors.

An EU model, or some really -loud- beeyatch?

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

On 03/28/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:50:38 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 03/28/2012 06:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

However, I'm thinking of putting two 120W panels on the 5th wheel to
keep the batteries charged.

Why so much? I'm guessing that you already did the math.
Do you do a lot of wilderness camp^H^H^H^Hmobile living?
Or do you just use a lot of electricity at night?

I only use enough for lights to find my way to the crapper 4-5 times a
night (oh the joys of BPH).

Condolences.


SWMBO's (aka the OverLord) electrical
footprint is somewhat larger.

Bigscreen + blow dryer?


240W is enough to fully recharge the 2 6V golf cart batteries after an
evening/morning of 12V lighting and 120V inverter usage - that is if the
sun shines.

Aha, you get up real early, too?


There's always the Honda 2000W generator in emergencies and
to annoy any neighbors.

An EU model, or some really -loud- beeyatch?

EU 59db


--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

CW wrote:
"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
eb.com...
We
solved the phone bill taxes and fees with Vonage for a landline and
TracFones for cell usage. May even drop the landline as we only use
about $10 month apiece for TracFone and Vonage runs $17 or so a month.

You do realize that with a phone system like that, during any kind of
disaster situation you will be cut off with no communication, right? The
Vonage is iffy. The cell phone is guaranteed useless.

As a guy who has been in telecommunications for a lot of years - disasters
are disasters. Phone systems are subject to them as well. One would be
foolish to think that an analog or digital phone system is immune to, or
even somehow more reliable in a disaster.

--

-Mike-

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:29:59 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 03/28/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:50:38 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

There's always the Honda 2000W generator in emergencies and
to annoy any neighbors.

An EU model, or some really -loud- beeyatch?

EU 59db

Those are -considerably- less annoying than most on the market.
Ever heard a 3,600rpm model? Ye gods!

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

In article ,
says...

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
eb.com...
We
solved the phone bill taxes and fees with Vonage for a landline and
TracFones for cell usage. May even drop the landline as we only use
about $10 month apiece for TracFone and Vonage runs $17 or so a month.

You do realize that with a phone system like that, during any kind of
disaster situation you will be cut off with no communication, right? The
Vonage is iffy. The cell phone is guaranteed useless.

Here in CT during the blackout last year cell was the only thing that
was kind of working. The land lines were down so POTS was out.

On 03/28/2012 09:49 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 3/28/2012 8:15 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 3/28/2012 7:53 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
1850 sq ft. Heating and hot water is NG. We averaged about 1100
kWh/month for the two years before installing solar - about 500 kWh min
and 1800 kWh max. We are somewhat more careful in turning of lights etc
since. The 6kW system so far has produced:

Dec: 736kWh
Jan: 818kWh
Feb: 945kWh
Mar: 1100kWh (projected since it's currently 986+ approx 40kWh for 4
more days)

The June number should be the max and I'm guessing 1200 - 1400 kWh


Ok...that makes more sense to me now... 1100 kw is a pretty impressive
output for solar.

NG for heating and hot water really saves the $$$

Water heater, dryer and heat pumps are the big ticket items for lots of
KW's.

People are anal about the lights, but you could leave ALL the lights on
24X7 and still not burn many kw's.

Say 1000 watts a day for 30 days = 30,000 watts per month / 1000 = 30kw
x .08 = $2.40 per month for the lights. (10 100w bulbs burning 24x7)

PS: Electrical Engineers may now jump in for corrections.



if you own the system, you don't get a check. you get a credit for
future bills in the next year. i don't know what happens if you're
leasing the system.

last year i generated 14200 kwh, which resulted in a $200 credit at the
end of the year. my total charges for 2011 was $430 (including fees),
about $1650 under what i estimate i would have paid without solar. i
have a 2800 sqft house with 2 ac units, and run a couple of electric
kilns a lot, so my typical usage is higher than yours.

so far this year i've generated 2890kwh, more than i've used so i've
been generating more credits. since my bills haven't totaled 200 yet, my
1st 3 bills this year so far are $0.

you can upload your data and plot your generation at http://pvoutput.org
to compare your generation with others. my system is
http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=1569&sid=1200

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az


Charlie,

Are you a Solar City customer or did you purchase from some other solar
company?

How do you upload to pvout.org (automatically?) your stats?

I'm leasing my system as I couldn't afford the purchase and as well the
lease includes any maintenance and a purchase didn't.

On the lease, any annual credits are paid to me rather than carrying over.

Thanks,

- Doug


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 03/28/2012 05:33 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:29:59 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 03/28/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:50:38 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

There's always the Honda 2000W generator in emergencies and
to annoy any neighbors.

An EU model, or some really -loud- beeyatch?

EU 59db

Those are -considerably- less annoying than most on the market.
Ever heard a 3,600rpm model? Ye gods!

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

I've been temped on this one except for the noise, but it would run the
AC...

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/champion-4000-watt-portable-generator-49-state-model/54135

It would probably drive away any neighbors :-)


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

In article , says...

On 3/28/2012 7:53 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
1850 sq ft. Heating and hot water is NG. We averaged about 1100
kWh/month for the two years before installing solar - about 500 kWh min
and 1800 kWh max. We are somewhat more careful in turning of lights etc
since. The 6kW system so far has produced:

Dec: 736kWh
Jan: 818kWh
Feb: 945kWh
Mar: 1100kWh (projected since it's currently 986+ approx 40kWh for 4
more days)

The June number should be the max and I'm guessing 1200 - 1400 kWh


Ok...that makes more sense to me now... 1100 kw is a pretty impressive
output for solar.

NG for heating and hot water really saves the $$$

Water heater, dryer and heat pumps are the big ticket items for lots of
KW's.

People are anal about the lights, but you could leave ALL the lights on
24X7 and still not burn many kw's.

Say 1000 watts a day for 30 days = 30,000 watts per month / 1000 = 30kw
x .08 = $2.40 per month for the lights. (10 100w bulbs burning 24x7)

????

You don't pay for electricity by the watt-day, you pay by the watt-hour.
Multiply your number by 24.

PS: Electrical Engineers may now jump in for corrections.

In article om,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

Why do you need to produce this constant high power? Power here was out
for more than a week last year. Not just in my house, in most of the
state and the neighboring state. Would have been nice to be able to run
the heat and the refrigerator for a few hours a day so the pipes didn't
freeze and the food didn't spoil. Why would you need all these
batteries you talk about to do that?

And your wallet was big enough to buy this solar system you're bragging
about so why would batteries be an issue?

You would also have to get approval from the power utility, city and
Solar equipment provider.

You needed all those "approvals" to install the thing in the first place
so why is this an issue all of a sudden?

On 03/28/2012 07:42 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In raweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

Why do you need to produce this constant high power? Power here was out
for more than a week last year. Not just in my house, in most of the
state and the neighboring state. Would have been nice to be able to run
the heat and the refrigerator for a few hours a day so the pipes didn't
freeze and the food didn't spoil. Why would you need all these
batteries you talk about to do that?

And your wallet was big enough to buy this solar system you're bragging
about so why would batteries be an issue?

You would also have to get approval from the power utility, city and
Solar equipment provider.

You needed all those "approvals" to install the thing in the first place
so why is this an issue all of a sudden?

Well, J

I didn't spend any big bucks for the system, it was installed for zero.
All I pay is a monthly lease.

Also, unless a solar system can produce somewhat of a constant power
(which it can't without some storage system), your power level will be
totally variable depending on light level, cloud cover, etc. Do you
currently live with constant brownouts and power losses?

And I also inquired about a transfer switch and was educated as to why
it would be a fools errand without a storage system. After some
thought, I determined the experts were correct. You might want to think
about it before you espouse yourself as an expert. The best storage
system is the grid or batteries. The grid costs only taxes and fees -
about $19/month. A battery storage system for 40 kWh/day costs are
prohibitive for costs, space and maintenance.

The powers that be did allow the installation of a system that works,
not one that you would like to believe that works.

Take up your suggestions with someone who knows WTF their talking about.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

In article ,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:42 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In raweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

Why do you need to produce this constant high power? Power here was out
for more than a week last year. Not just in my house, in most of the
state and the neighboring state. Would have been nice to be able to run
the heat and the refrigerator for a few hours a day so the pipes didn't
freeze and the food didn't spoil. Why would you need all these
batteries you talk about to do that?

And your wallet was big enough to buy this solar system you're bragging
about so why would batteries be an issue?

You would also have to get approval from the power utility, city and
Solar equipment provider.

You needed all those "approvals" to install the thing in the first place
so why is this an issue all of a sudden?

Well, J

I didn't spend any big bucks for the system, it was installed for zero.
All I pay is a monthly lease.

Oh, I see, you got something for nothing. Sounds to me like you got
what you paid for.

Also, unless a solar system can produce somewhat of a constant power
(which it can't without some storage system), your power level will be
totally variable depending on light level, cloud cover, etc. Do you
currently live with constant brownouts and power losses?

Grok the concept. The scenario is that the grid is DOWN. When the grid
is DOWN, "constant brownouts" is better than nothing, and there's been a
power loss already.

And I also inquired about a transfer switch and was educated as to why
it would be a fools errand without a storage system. After some
thought, I determined the experts were correct. You might want to think
about it before you espouse yourself as an expert. The best storage
system is the grid or batteries.

That's fine when the grid is up. But the scenario is that it is not up.
Did you ask your experts why it was "a fool's errand" to want to run the
refrigerator and the heat when the grid was down? Sounds to me like
they didn't know how to set that up and talked gullible you into
believing that it was a good idea to just freeze to death in the dark
with all this fancy solar power equipment doing absolutely nothing
useful in the event that the grid goes down.

The grid costs only taxes and fees -
about $19/month.

It doesn't matter if it costs 19 dollars a month or pays you a trillion
dollars a second, if it's not up it does you no good at all. And you
have all this fancy expensive solar crap and your food still spoils and
your pipes still freeze.

The objective here is not to live off-grid, the objective here is to
provide a minimal level of power when the grid fails.

A battery storage system for 40 kWh/day costs are
prohibitive for costs, space and maintenance.

Why do you need 40 kWh/day to run the refrigerator and the heat?

The powers that be did allow the installation of a system that works,
not one that you would like to believe that works.

By your own admission it doesn't work when the grid goes down, so they
did not "allow the installation of a system that works" when the grid is
down.

Take up your suggestions with someone who knows WTF their talking about.

Ask your so-called experts what good your fancy system does when the
grid is down for a week.

On 03/28/2012 10:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In web.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:42 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In raweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

Why do you need to produce this constant high power? Power here was out
for more than a week last year. Not just in my house, in most of the
state and the neighboring state. Would have been nice to be able to run
the heat and the refrigerator for a few hours a day so the pipes didn't
freeze and the food didn't spoil. Why would you need all these
batteries you talk about to do that?

And your wallet was big enough to buy this solar system you're bragging
about so why would batteries be an issue?

You would also have to get approval from the power utility, city and
Solar equipment provider.

You needed all those "approvals" to install the thing in the first place
so why is this an issue all of a sudden?

Well, J

I didn't spend any big bucks for the system, it was installed for zero.
All I pay is a monthly lease.

Oh, I see, you got something for nothing. Sounds to me like you got
what you paid for.

Also, unless a solar system can produce somewhat of a constant power
(which it can't without some storage system), your power level will be
totally variable depending on light level, cloud cover, etc. Do you
currently live with constant brownouts and power losses?

Grok the concept. The scenario is that the grid is DOWN. When the grid
is DOWN, "constant brownouts" is better than nothing, and there's been a
power loss already.

And I also inquired about a transfer switch and was educated as to why
it would be a fools errand without a storage system. After some
thought, I determined the experts were correct. You might want to think
about it before you espouse yourself as an expert. The best storage
system is the grid or batteries.

That's fine when the grid is up. But the scenario is that it is not up.
Did you ask your experts why it was "a fool's errand" to want to run the
refrigerator and the heat when the grid was down? Sounds to me like
they didn't know how to set that up and talked gullible you into
believing that it was a good idea to just freeze to death in the dark
with all this fancy solar power equipment doing absolutely nothing
useful in the event that the grid goes down.

The grid costs only taxes and fees -
about $19/month.

It doesn't matter if it costs 19 dollars a month or pays you a trillion
dollars a second, if it's not up it does you no good at all. And you
have all this fancy expensive solar crap and your food still spoils and
your pipes still freeze.

The objective here is not to live off-grid, the objective here is to
provide a minimal level of power when the grid fails.

A battery storage system for 40 kWh/day costs are
prohibitive for costs, space and maintenance.

Why do you need 40 kWh/day to run the refrigerator and the heat?

The powers that be did allow the installation of a system that works,
not one that you would like to believe that works.

By your own admission it doesn't work when the grid goes down, so they
did not "allow the installation of a system that works" when the grid is
down.

Take up your suggestions with someone who knows WTF their talking about.

Ask your so-called experts what good your fancy system does when the
grid is down for a week.


In the 20 years I've lived in the AZ desert, the grid has never been
down for more than 20 minutes. I can live with that.

The purpose of the system is to save money, which it has every month
since it's been installed. It will only save more as time goes on and
the utility rates increase since it has provided more power than I take
from the grid. So yes, I am getting something for nothing - well not
nothing, I'm getting it from the sun.

I'm sure it wouldn't do you any good though as your knowledge in these
matters far exceeds that of the so called experts.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 3/28/2012 5:37 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 03/28/2012 09:49 AM, chaniarts wrote:
On 3/28/2012 8:15 AM, Pat Barber wrote:
On 3/28/2012 7:53 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
1850 sq ft. Heating and hot water is NG. We averaged about 1100
kWh/month for the two years before installing solar - about 500 kWh min
and 1800 kWh max. We are somewhat more careful in turning of lights etc
since. The 6kW system so far has produced:

Dec: 736kWh
Jan: 818kWh
Feb: 945kWh
Mar: 1100kWh (projected since it's currently 986+ approx 40kWh for 4
more days)

The June number should be the max and I'm guessing 1200 - 1400 kWh


Ok...that makes more sense to me now... 1100 kw is a pretty impressive
output for solar.

NG for heating and hot water really saves the $$$

Water heater, dryer and heat pumps are the big ticket items for lots of
KW's.

People are anal about the lights, but you could leave ALL the lights on
24X7 and still not burn many kw's.

Say 1000 watts a day for 30 days = 30,000 watts per month / 1000 = 30kw
x .08 = $2.40 per month for the lights. (10 100w bulbs burning 24x7)

PS: Electrical Engineers may now jump in for corrections.



if you own the system, you don't get a check. you get a credit for
future bills in the next year. i don't know what happens if you're
leasing the system.

last year i generated 14200 kwh, which resulted in a $200 credit at the
end of the year. my total charges for 2011 was $430 (including fees),
about $1650 under what i estimate i would have paid without solar. i
have a 2800 sqft house with 2 ac units, and run a couple of electric
kilns a lot, so my typical usage is higher than yours.

so far this year i've generated 2890kwh, more than i've used so i've
been generating more credits. since my bills haven't totaled 200 yet, my
1st 3 bills this year so far are $0.

you can upload your data and plot your generation at http://pvoutput.org
to compare your generation with others. my system is
http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=1569&sid=1200

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az


Charlie,

Are you a Solar City customer or did you purchase from some other solar
company?

How do you upload to pvout.org (automatically?) your stats?

I'm leasing my system as I couldn't afford the purchase and as well the
lease includes any maintenance and a purchase didn't.

On the lease, any annual credits are paid to me rather than carrying over.

Thanks,

- Doug



i bought my system.

if you have a login to pvoutput, you can add either 1 day at a time, or
if you have a .csv, you can bulk upload 3 months at a time.

once you're logged in, you can use this
http://pvoutput.org/addoutput.jsp to upload a day. at the bottom are
links for different multiple uploaders.

On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:11:10 -0700, Doug Winterburn
I'm sure it wouldn't do you any good though as your knowledge in these
matters far exceeds that of the so called experts.

Doug, look who you're replying to. Several grains of salt are
mandatory before even considering what he has to say.

J. Clarke wrote:

In article , says...

On 3/28/2012 7:53 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:

1850 sq ft. Heating and hot water is NG. We averaged about 1100
kWh/month for the two years before installing solar - about 500 kWh min
and 1800 kWh max. We are somewhat more careful in turning of lights etc
since. The 6kW system so far has produced:

Dec: 736kWh
Jan: 818kWh
Feb: 945kWh
Mar: 1100kWh (projected since it's currently 986+ approx 40kWh for 4
more days)

The June number should be the max and I'm guessing 1200 - 1400 kWh



Ok...that makes more sense to me now... 1100 kw is a pretty impressive
output for solar.

NG for heating and hot water really saves the $$$

Water heater, dryer and heat pumps are the big ticket items for lots of
KW's.

People are anal about the lights, but you could leave ALL the lights on
24X7 and still not burn many kw's.

Say 1000 watts a day for 30 days = 30,000 watts per month / 1000 = 30kw
x .08 = $2.40 per month for the lights. (10 100w bulbs burning 24x7)


????

You don't pay for electricity by the watt-day, you pay by the watt-hour.
Multiply your number by 24.


PS: Electrical Engineers may now jump in for corrections.




10 bulbs X 100w = 1000w (or 1kw)
1000w X 24hr = 24000w (24kw)
24kw X 30 days = 720000w (or 720kw)

a Kilowatt hour is 1000 watts.
So 720000w / 1000 = 720kwh

If you are stuck on a Co-Op electric system you are paying about twice
that of the average person ($0.18) - otherwise about $0.09 a kwh)
720kwh @ $0.18 = $129.60
720kwh @ $0.09 = $64.80



--

Michael Joel



For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,
His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made,
so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God,
they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became
futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
- Romans 1:20-21 (NASB)




parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols

In article
Michael Joel writes:

PS: Electrical Engineers may now jump in for corrections.

10 bulbs X 100w = 1000w (or 1kw)
1000w X 24hr = 24000w (24kw)

watts x hours is watt-hours, not watts
24 kwh

24kw X 30 days = 720000w (or 720kw)

72000 wh (72 kwh)

(Actually, 24 kw for 30 days would be about 17 Mwh, and probably melt your wiring).

a Kilowatt hour is 1000 watts.

1000 watt hours

So 720000w / 1000 = 720kwh

(I assume you get it by now)

If your units don't make sense, don't expect anyone to believe your numbers.


I'm not an EE, and I assume neither are you.

--
Drew Lawson So risk all or don't risk anything
You can lose all the same

Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
Michael Joel writes:


SNIP


I think my math made enough sense.
I don't want to quibble over terms but I think if you understand what I
said you wouldn't say that 24kw for 30 days would melt the wires. The
24kw was the days cumulative watts (which my math made clear).

All energy was expressed in watts until a final conversion to kwh...
Kilowatt Hour: noun - :A unit of energy equal to the work done by a
power of 1000 watts operating for one hour
Kilowatt: noun - A unit of power equal to 1000 watts

.... but for someone simply wanting to calc their bill and not planning a
wiring system (as the discussion) dividing watts by 1000 is kwh.



--

Michael Joel



For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,
His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made,
so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God,
they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became
futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
- Romans 1:20-21 (NASB)




parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols

In article m,
says...

On 03/28/2012 10:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In web.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:42 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In raweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

Why do you need to produce this constant high power? Power here was out
for more than a week last year. Not just in my house, in most of the
state and the neighboring state. Would have been nice to be able to run
the heat and the refrigerator for a few hours a day so the pipes didn't
freeze and the food didn't spoil. Why would you need all these
batteries you talk about to do that?

And your wallet was big enough to buy this solar system you're bragging
about so why would batteries be an issue?

You would also have to get approval from the power utility, city and
Solar equipment provider.

You needed all those "approvals" to install the thing in the first place
so why is this an issue all of a sudden?

Well, J

I didn't spend any big bucks for the system, it was installed for zero.
All I pay is a monthly lease.

Oh, I see, you got something for nothing. Sounds to me like you got
what you paid for.

Also, unless a solar system can produce somewhat of a constant power
(which it can't without some storage system), your power level will be
totally variable depending on light level, cloud cover, etc. Do you
currently live with constant brownouts and power losses?

Grok the concept. The scenario is that the grid is DOWN. When the grid
is DOWN, "constant brownouts" is better than nothing, and there's been a
power loss already.

And I also inquired about a transfer switch and was educated as to why
it would be a fools errand without a storage system. After some
thought, I determined the experts were correct. You might want to think
about it before you espouse yourself as an expert. The best storage
system is the grid or batteries.

That's fine when the grid is up. But the scenario is that it is not up.
Did you ask your experts why it was "a fool's errand" to want to run the
refrigerator and the heat when the grid was down? Sounds to me like
they didn't know how to set that up and talked gullible you into
believing that it was a good idea to just freeze to death in the dark
with all this fancy solar power equipment doing absolutely nothing
useful in the event that the grid goes down.

The grid costs only taxes and fees -
about $19/month.

It doesn't matter if it costs 19 dollars a month or pays you a trillion
dollars a second, if it's not up it does you no good at all. And you
have all this fancy expensive solar crap and your food still spoils and
your pipes still freeze.

The objective here is not to live off-grid, the objective here is to
provide a minimal level of power when the grid fails.

A battery storage system for 40 kWh/day costs are
prohibitive for costs, space and maintenance.

Why do you need 40 kWh/day to run the refrigerator and the heat?

The powers that be did allow the installation of a system that works,
not one that you would like to believe that works.

By your own admission it doesn't work when the grid goes down, so they
did not "allow the installation of a system that works" when the grid is
down.

Take up your suggestions with someone who knows WTF their talking about.

Ask your so-called experts what good your fancy system does when the
grid is down for a week.


In the 20 years I've lived in the AZ desert, the grid has never been
down for more than 20 minutes. I can live with that.

If you live somewhere where that is the case it might make sense.
Having gone without power for more than week last year my view is
somewhat different.

The purpose of the system is to save money, which it has every month
since it's been installed. It will only save more as time goes on and
the utility rates increase since it has provided more power than I take
from the grid. So yes, I am getting something for nothing - well not
nothing, I'm getting it from the sun.

I'm sure it wouldn't do you any good though as your knowledge in these
matters far exceeds that of the so called experts.

Sorry, little troll, but I'm not rising to that bait, so you can get
back under your bridge and wait for the next billy goat.

On 03/30/2012 03:40 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 10:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In web.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:42 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In raweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

Why do you need to produce this constant high power? Power here was out
for more than a week last year. Not just in my house, in most of the
state and the neighboring state. Would have been nice to be able to run
the heat and the refrigerator for a few hours a day so the pipes didn't
freeze and the food didn't spoil. Why would you need all these
batteries you talk about to do that?

And your wallet was big enough to buy this solar system you're bragging
about so why would batteries be an issue?

You would also have to get approval from the power utility, city and
Solar equipment provider.

You needed all those "approvals" to install the thing in the first place
so why is this an issue all of a sudden?

Well, J

I didn't spend any big bucks for the system, it was installed for zero.
All I pay is a monthly lease.

Oh, I see, you got something for nothing. Sounds to me like you got
what you paid for.

Also, unless a solar system can produce somewhat of a constant power
(which it can't without some storage system), your power level will be
totally variable depending on light level, cloud cover, etc. Do you
currently live with constant brownouts and power losses?

Grok the concept. The scenario is that the grid is DOWN. When the grid
is DOWN, "constant brownouts" is better than nothing, and there's been a
power loss already.

And I also inquired about a transfer switch and was educated as to why
it would be a fools errand without a storage system. After some
thought, I determined the experts were correct. You might want to think
about it before you espouse yourself as an expert. The best storage
system is the grid or batteries.

That's fine when the grid is up. But the scenario is that it is not up.
Did you ask your experts why it was "a fool's errand" to want to run the
refrigerator and the heat when the grid was down? Sounds to me like
they didn't know how to set that up and talked gullible you into
believing that it was a good idea to just freeze to death in the dark
with all this fancy solar power equipment doing absolutely nothing
useful in the event that the grid goes down.

The grid costs only taxes and fees -
about $19/month.

It doesn't matter if it costs 19 dollars a month or pays you a trillion
dollars a second, if it's not up it does you no good at all. And you
have all this fancy expensive solar crap and your food still spoils and
your pipes still freeze.

The objective here is not to live off-grid, the objective here is to
provide a minimal level of power when the grid fails.

A battery storage system for 40 kWh/day costs are
prohibitive for costs, space and maintenance.

Why do you need 40 kWh/day to run the refrigerator and the heat?

The powers that be did allow the installation of a system that works,
not one that you would like to believe that works.

By your own admission it doesn't work when the grid goes down, so they
did not "allow the installation of a system that works" when the grid is
down.

Take up your suggestions with someone who knows WTF their talking about.

Ask your so-called experts what good your fancy system does when the
grid is down for a week.


In the 20 years I've lived in the AZ desert, the grid has never been
down for more than 20 minutes. I can live with that.

If you live somewhere where that is the case it might make sense.
Having gone without power for more than week last year my view is
somewhat different.

The purpose of the system is to save money, which it has every month
since it's been installed. It will only save more as time goes on and
the utility rates increase since it has provided more power than I take
from the grid. So yes, I am getting something for nothing - well not
nothing, I'm getting it from the sun.

I'm sure it wouldn't do you any good though as your knowledge in these
matters far exceeds that of the so called experts.

Sorry, little troll, but I'm not rising to that bait, so you can get
back under your bridge and wait for the next billy goat.



Sheesh - another one in the bin.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

In article om,
says...

On 03/30/2012 03:40 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 10:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In web.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:42 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In raweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system. Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

Why do you need to produce this constant high power? Power here was out
for more than a week last year. Not just in my house, in most of the
state and the neighboring state. Would have been nice to be able to run
the heat and the refrigerator for a few hours a day so the pipes didn't
freeze and the food didn't spoil. Why would you need all these
batteries you talk about to do that?

And your wallet was big enough to buy this solar system you're bragging
about so why would batteries be an issue?

You would also have to get approval from the power utility, city and
Solar equipment provider.

You needed all those "approvals" to install the thing in the first place
so why is this an issue all of a sudden?

Well, J

I didn't spend any big bucks for the system, it was installed for zero.
All I pay is a monthly lease.

Oh, I see, you got something for nothing. Sounds to me like you got
what you paid for.

Also, unless a solar system can produce somewhat of a constant power
(which it can't without some storage system), your power level will be
totally variable depending on light level, cloud cover, etc. Do you
currently live with constant brownouts and power losses?

Grok the concept. The scenario is that the grid is DOWN. When the grid
is DOWN, "constant brownouts" is better than nothing, and there's been a
power loss already.

And I also inquired about a transfer switch and was educated as to why
it would be a fools errand without a storage system. After some
thought, I determined the experts were correct. You might want to think
about it before you espouse yourself as an expert. The best storage
system is the grid or batteries.

That's fine when the grid is up. But the scenario is that it is not up.
Did you ask your experts why it was "a fool's errand" to want to run the
refrigerator and the heat when the grid was down? Sounds to me like
they didn't know how to set that up and talked gullible you into
believing that it was a good idea to just freeze to death in the dark
with all this fancy solar power equipment doing absolutely nothing
useful in the event that the grid goes down.

The grid costs only taxes and fees -
about $19/month.

It doesn't matter if it costs 19 dollars a month or pays you a trillion
dollars a second, if it's not up it does you no good at all. And you
have all this fancy expensive solar crap and your food still spoils and
your pipes still freeze.

The objective here is not to live off-grid, the objective here is to
provide a minimal level of power when the grid fails.

A battery storage system for 40 kWh/day costs are
prohibitive for costs, space and maintenance.

Why do you need 40 kWh/day to run the refrigerator and the heat?

The powers that be did allow the installation of a system that works,
not one that you would like to believe that works.

By your own admission it doesn't work when the grid goes down, so they
did not "allow the installation of a system that works" when the grid is
down.

Take up your suggestions with someone who knows WTF their talking about.

Ask your so-called experts what good your fancy system does when the
grid is down for a week.


In the 20 years I've lived in the AZ desert, the grid has never been
down for more than 20 minutes. I can live with that.

If you live somewhere where that is the case it might make sense.
Having gone without power for more than week last year my view is
somewhat different.

The purpose of the system is to save money, which it has every month
since it's been installed. It will only save more as time goes on and
the utility rates increase since it has provided more power than I take
from the grid. So yes, I am getting something for nothing - well not
nothing, I'm getting it from the sun.

I'm sure it wouldn't do you any good though as your knowledge in these
matters far exceeds that of the so called experts.

Sorry, little troll, but I'm not rising to that bait, so you can get
back under your bridge and wait for the next billy goat.



Sheesh - another one in the bin.

Well, I was hoping that he'd see the error of his ways and take back the
snotty remark, but since he'd rather use the killfile, the feeling is
mutual.

plonk

Caution -
that is an RV generator - the 220 volt looking plug isn't.


Mine is somewhat like that - my Honda ran to long - over a week and it
was to hard on it.

So I got one like that but with a real 240 that is two 120's 180 degrees
apart.

The 220 is 40 amp per line. The 120v is only 30. So I run 220 and
split it down into two legs. Wish I had two sets of 240 in real time.

Martin

On 3/28/2012 7:58 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 03/28/2012 05:33 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:29:59 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 03/28/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:50:38 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

There's always the Honda 2000W generator in emergencies and
to annoy any neighbors.

An EU model, or some really -loud- beeyatch?

EU 59db

Those are -considerably- less annoying than most on the market.
Ever heard a 3,600rpm model? Ye gods!

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

I've been temped on this one except for the noise, but it would run the
AC...

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/champion-4000-watt-portable-generator-49-state-model/54135


It would probably drive away any neighbors :-)

Do me...do me, too!

Troll city here we come!

-----------
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
.local...

In article om,
says...

On 03/30/2012 03:40 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 10:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In web.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:42 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In
raweb.com,
says...

On 03/28/2012 07:13 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In
aweb.com,
says...

On 03/27/2012 09:17 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Cool, Doug. What's your setup? Got battery backup so you
stay online
when the rest of the block is out?

No, it's a grid tied system - SolarCity. The grid is our
storage
device, in fact when the grid goes down, so does our system.
Wouldn't
want to be pumping juice into the grid while the repair guys
were trying
to get things fixed! Might make their hair look like Guy
Fieri. The
inverter shuts off when the sun or the grid goes down.

So have a transfer switch that disconnects from the grid when
the grid
goes down. I wouldn't pay a dime for a solar system that
still had me
completely dependent on the electric company.

Then you would require a battery system to buffer variable
instaneous
generation from a constant load. There is night and clouds
etc that
keep a non battery system from producing constant power. I
don't think
my gar^H^H^Hshop is big enough to hold the batteries, let
alone my
wallet big enough to buy them.

Why do you need to produce this constant high power? Power
here was out
for more than a week last year. Not just in my house, in most
of the
state and the neighboring state. Would have been nice to be
able to run
the heat and the refrigerator for a few hours a day so the
pipes didn't
freeze and the food didn't spoil. Why would you need all these
batteries you talk about to do that?

And your wallet was big enough to buy this solar system you're
bragging
about so why would batteries be an issue?

You would also have to get approval from the power utility,
city and
Solar equipment provider.

You needed all those "approvals" to install the thing in the
first place
so why is this an issue all of a sudden?

Well, J

I didn't spend any big bucks for the system, it was installed
for zero.
All I pay is a monthly lease.

Oh, I see, you got something for nothing. Sounds to me like you
got
what you paid for.

Also, unless a solar system can produce somewhat of a constant
power
(which it can't without some storage system), your power level
will be
totally variable depending on light level, cloud cover, etc. Do
you
currently live with constant brownouts and power losses?

Grok the concept. The scenario is that the grid is DOWN. When
the grid
is DOWN, "constant brownouts" is better than nothing, and there's
been a
power loss already.

And I also inquired about a transfer switch and was educated as
to why
it would be a fools errand without a storage system. After some
thought, I determined the experts were correct. You might want
to think
about it before you espouse yourself as an expert. The best
storage
system is the grid or batteries.

That's fine when the grid is up. But the scenario is that it is
not up.
Did you ask your experts why it was "a fool's errand" to want to
run the
refrigerator and the heat when the grid was down? Sounds to me
like
they didn't know how to set that up and talked gullible you into
believing that it was a good idea to just freeze to death in the
dark
with all this fancy solar power equipment doing absolutely
nothing
useful in the event that the grid goes down.

The grid costs only taxes and fees -
about $19/month.

It doesn't matter if it costs 19 dollars a month or pays you a
trillion
dollars a second, if it's not up it does you no good at all. And
you
have all this fancy expensive solar crap and your food still
spoils and
your pipes still freeze.

The objective here is not to live off-grid, the objective here is
to
provide a minimal level of power when the grid fails.

A battery storage system for 40 kWh/day costs are
prohibitive for costs, space and maintenance.

Why do you need 40 kWh/day to run the refrigerator and the heat?

The powers that be did allow the installation of a system that
works,
not one that you would like to believe that works.

By your own admission it doesn't work when the grid goes down, so
they
did not "allow the installation of a system that works" when the
grid is
down.

Take up your suggestions with someone who knows WTF their
talking about.

Ask your so-called experts what good your fancy system does when
the
grid is down for a week.


In the 20 years I've lived in the AZ desert, the grid has never
been
down for more than 20 minutes. I can live with that.

If you live somewhere where that is the case it might make sense.
Having gone without power for more than week last year my view is
somewhat different.

The purpose of the system is to save money, which it has every
month
since it's been installed. It will only save more as time goes on
and
the utility rates increase since it has provided more power than I
take
from the grid. So yes, I am getting something for nothing - well
not
nothing, I'm getting it from the sun.

I'm sure it wouldn't do you any good though as your knowledge in
these
matters far exceeds that of the so called experts.

Sorry, little troll, but I'm not rising to that bait, so you can
get
back under your bridge and wait for the next billy goat.



Sheesh - another one in the bin.

Well, I was hoping that he'd see the error of his ways and take back
the
snotty remark, but since he'd rather use the killfile, the feeling is
mutual.

plonk

"Martin Eastburn" wrote:
Caution -
that is an RV generator - the 220 volt looking plug isn't.


Mine is somewhat like that - my Honda ran to long - over a week and
it was to hard on it.
---------------------------------
A tip for running 10HP Max Eng-Gen sets

Run straight SAE 30 oil and change every 40 running hours or
quarterly.

Learned this the hard way from a small engine specialist.

Lew