On Sun, 6 Feb 2011 14:52:00 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , markem618
says...

Or having the customer return it. That is where the QC departments now
reside.

So found your own tool company on the basis of your definition of
"quality control" and see how many you sell.

It seems to sell alot of stuff in the market place today actually.

Like what?

Bought any home video, a radio, small kitchen appliances.


But
I prefered with the stuff work out of the box 100% of the time. That
is not the case you test 13 out of a thousand if they pass send them
to the warehouse.

So what do you, test _all_ the cartridges in the case?


Actually I test nada now, except for what I buy. Use to test
electronics, after I fixed the production that did not work.

But testing at assembly works, sampling works well for electronic
components but still relies upon use in pcb to weed out the bad ones.

Mark

"Max" wrote in message
.com...
Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS? grin
My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
other ROSs.
Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
cost.
What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
I've been looking at the 150:
http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d

I have several ROS sanders but if I become persuaded that the Festool is
worth the money..........I'll spring.
Thanks,

Max


Not sure which you are talking about, Festool uses the 150 to describe the
size of a round pad. They make at least two with a 150 in the description.

If you are talking about the right angle Rotex, about $500 I would say yes
it is worth the difference if you can afford one. They CAN sand 3~4 times
more quickly than the typical ROS and they can sand as finely as perhaps a
finish sander. Coupled with a Festool vac they have SUPERIOR dust
collection. That in itself will save you time and trips to the doctor.
Nothing about them feels compromised or cheap.

I have no experience with the less expensive 150 ROS sanders.

What makes the so much better? Built in Germany, not farmed out to be built
cheaper by a 3rd world country. No risk guarantee, use it for 30 days and
if not satisfied return it, and that is followed by a 3 year warranty.

I do however recommend the smaller 125 if you are going to be using the
sander in confined tight spaces or doing face frame, cabinet door type
sanding. If mostly sanding wide flat areas the 150 will be better. Keep in
mind that because the Rotex sands so much more quickly it does cover a log
of area much faster than a like sized competitor. IMHO the 125 is much
more versatile in usage.

"Max" wrote in message
b.com...
Snip



As I mentioned to Robatoy, I'm dubious about the need for the aggressive
action of the Rotex series. (but I'm holding that option)
As for dust extraction I have two of these:
http://tinyurl.com/63tl88t

I found that I use the agrssive mode more often than the fine mode. So I
would not be concerned about that if you want to save time sanding.
Basically the agressive mode speeds sanding. You can sand with the typical
ROS for 30 minutes or the Rotex in agressive mode for 5~10 minutes, you
simply move the sander more quickly to accomplish the same thing. And of
course if you need to remove more material in certain spots it is very very
capable of keeping up with a belt sander with out having to change sanders.

At the very least give one a work out at your local dealer or give the 30
day try at home a run for its money.





They have a "remote" on/off transmitter. I use one with my Festool TS75.
It works perfectly. I feel confident that it will work with the ROS.
So how well would you say the 150/5 compares to a Bosch 3727DVS? (which I
have)
I don't have a woodworking "business" but I do quite a bit of work "by
request" for family, friends and those who might become aware of my work.
Under that circumstance I'm not under any kind of production deadline but
I have a real appreciation for tools that "do the job right".

Many thanks for your input.

Max

"Han" wrote in message
...
Swingman wrote in
:

The best tools you can buy will save you money in the long run ...

Now what about the new rotex, the 90? Is that just another even smaller
version, or does it have capabilities not in the 125 or 150? I think the
90 is ~3.5", 125 = 5" 150 = 6".
Somewhere I saw a price of ~$650 for it plus a dustextractor, but the
combo
description wasn't clear to me, and it in't available until March, IIRC.


IIRC the 90 will add the feature of osculating to the mix of modes,
basically if becomes a clone Fein Multimaster sander also.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:01:43 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/5/2011 4:27 PM, Max wrote:
Could I interrupt this QC discussion for a question on Festool ROS?
grin
My curiosity has been piqued now as to why the Festool is so superior to
other ROSs.

Is there really a performance advantage sufficient to justify the higher
cost.

What is it that makes a Festool so much better?
I've been looking at the 150:

http://tinyurl.com/4gvcq2d

Festool products are excellently engineered and of high quality, and
that one would be a good one, but it is not the top end of the Festool
sanders.

I would say that you might get a better bang for your buck by shopping
around and checking other reviews, like this one:

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/indus...ticleID=501109

The "Rotex" versions are what I'm most familiar with and ...

I would say yes ... mainly due to having a choice of motions ("rotex",
or aggressive removal, and eccentric, or less aggressive), bolstered by
the hole location and number in the pad, increasing the benefit (longer
sandpaper life) from dust extraction, given you overall a much more
efficient sanding system.

I thought Leon said that both modes of the festers were random orbit,
but the video and descriptions definitely sound like one is a rotary
and the other random orbit. Can you clarify?


Dont recall saying that however I do believe Robatoy indicated something
along the lines of random orbit and a more agressive random orbit but with
an added circular spin with in the random orbit.

Take a look here for the Festool explanation and illustration of the
difference.

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/...e%20sander.pdf




The 9-hole system sure sounds like nice tech.

"Leon" wrote in
:

I do however recommend the smaller 125 if you are going to be using
the sander in confined tight spaces or doing face frame, cabinet door
type sanding. If mostly sanding wide flat areas the 150 will be
better. Keep in mind that because the Rotex sands so much more
quickly it does cover a log of area much faster than a like sized
competitor. IMHO the 125 is much more versatile in usage.


I just might be going for the new rotex 90 (mm), rather than the 125 mm.
Seems like a better deal with more capabilities. Now how do I get a good
deal on a combo with the CT26?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 2/7/2011 7:33 AM, Han wrote:

I just might be going for the new rotex 90 (mm), rather than the 125 mm.
Seems like a better deal with more capabilities. Now how do I get a good
deal on a combo with the CT26?

If I did not already have, besides the RO125, both the RTS and DTS400, I
would definitely do likewise.

IMO, appears to be be an excellent choice, Han.

Might want to look on the FOG forum and see what's being said about them.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Han" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in
:

I do however recommend the smaller 125 if you are going to be using
the sander in confined tight spaces or doing face frame, cabinet door
type sanding. If mostly sanding wide flat areas the 150 will be
better. Keep in mind that because the Rotex sands so much more
quickly it does cover a log of area much faster than a like sized
competitor. IMHO the 125 is much more versatile in usage.


I just might be going for the new rotex 90 (mm), rather than the 125 mm.
Seems like a better deal with more capabilities. Now how do I get a good
deal on a combo with the CT26?


Festool normally has a package deal program going that gets you a discount
if you buy a Vac at the same time you buy a Domino, Sander, or Track Saw.
There may be other deals available. I got my Vac with the Domino.

Also Festool normally has a better introductory price the first few months
on top of the combination deal with the Vac. You might get an even better
deal if you buy the 90 when it first comes out.

When I bought the Domino within the first months of introduction and the Vac
I got a sizeable discount, IIRC $200. YMMV.

Keep in mind that the 150, 125, and 90 indicate pad size in mm's.

The 150 is approximately 6" in diameter, the 125 is approximately 5" in
diameter, the 90 will be approximately 3 1/2" in diameter.

On Mon, 7 Feb 2011 07:16:47 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

I thought Leon said that both modes of the festers were random orbit,
but the video and descriptions definitely sound like one is a rotary
and the other random orbit. Can you clarify?


Dont recall saying that however I do believe Robatoy indicated something
along the lines of random orbit and a more agressive random orbit but with
an added circular spin with in the random orbit.

Take a look here for the Festool explanation and illustration of the
difference.

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/...e%20sander.pdf

Thanks. That slow-rotation rotary mode sounds much less damaging than
a grinder while the random orbital motion polishes it out. Cool tool.

Now to wait for HF to release one. snort

--
If the American people ever allow private banks to control
the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by
deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up
around them will deprive the people of all property until
their children wake up homeless on the continent their
Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions
are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...
The issuing power should be taken from the banks and
restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
--Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Feb 2011 07:16:47 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..

I thought Leon said that both modes of the festers were random orbit,
but the video and descriptions definitely sound like one is a rotary
and the other random orbit. Can you clarify?


Dont recall saying that however I do believe Robatoy indicated something
along the lines of random orbit and a more agressive random orbit but with
an added circular spin with in the random orbit.

Take a look here for the Festool explanation and illustration of the
difference.

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/...e%20sander.pdf

Thanks. That slow-rotation rotary mode sounds much less damaging than
a grinder while the random orbital motion polishes it out. Cool tool.

Yeah, my old right angle PC ROS if lifted from the work would spin up to an
incredable speed and if you sat it down it could do some damage, I would
have to turn it off and wait for the pad to stop and begin again. With the
Rotex in any mode you can lift and set it back down with out worry. Now it
can do some damage because it removes stock quickly but if you are paying
attention there should be no issues.

Now to wait for HF to release one. snort

good luck. '~)

"Leon" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in
:

I do however recommend the smaller 125 if you are going to be using
the sander in confined tight spaces or doing face frame, cabinet
door type sanding. If mostly sanding wide flat areas the 150 will
be better. Keep in mind that because the Rotex sands so much more
quickly it does cover a log of area much faster than a like sized
competitor. IMHO the 125 is much more versatile in usage.


I just might be going for the new rotex 90 (mm), rather than the 125
mm. Seems like a better deal with more capabilities. Now how do I
get a good deal on a combo with the CT26?


Festool normally has a package deal program going that gets you a
discount if you buy a Vac at the same time you buy a Domino, Sander,
or Track Saw. There may be other deals available. I got my Vac with
the Domino.

Also Festool normally has a better introductory price the first few
months on top of the combination deal with the Vac. You might get an
even better deal if you buy the 90 when it first comes out.

When I bought the Domino within the first months of introduction and
the Vac I got a sizeable discount, IIRC $200. YMMV.

Keep in mind that the 150, 125, and 90 indicate pad size in mm's.

The 150 is approximately 6" in diameter, the 125 is approximately 5"
in diameter, the 90 will be approximately 3 1/2" in diameter.

Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you live
or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon wrote:
....
Yeah, my old right angle PC ROS if lifted from the work would spin up to an
incredable speed...

More recent PC's (and I presume others as well) have a "brake" to
prevent that. Of course, all it is is an o-ring around the shaft and a
solid spindle. When used in continuous or nearly continuous fashion the
generated head gets the lower case so hot can't touch it and promotes
early lower bearing failures. First thing I do w/ a new one is remove
the o-ring (altho for more normal use and finish work I'd leave it since
under those conditions one generally doesn't keep on running almost
continuously for hours at a time as I'm used to doing on the barn...

--

My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
Leon.
I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special (proprietary)
sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.

Max

Leon wrote:
....

... QC is now better defined as a
level of acceptable incompetence or inferiority. It is a shame that "most"
businesses today don't know that any thing less than 100% satisfaction of
its product is not a good thing, but then we live in an immediate
gratification society. So you can continue to explain how your QC does not
stand for perfection rather a level of tolerable acceptance and you can
continue to wonder why that ain't working.

....

Again, misconception and mistaken understanding of what am saying...

"Quality control: The observation techniques and activities used to
fulfill requirements for quality."

http://asq.org/learn-about-quality/quality-assurance-quality-control/overview/overview.html

--

On 2/7/2011 9:53 AM, Max wrote:

My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
Leon.
I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
(proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.

Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of
different types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool
sanders ... this was for special purposes where there was no comparable
Festool abrasive available, so it can be done.

I don't know whether any other sander manufacturer's abrasives will fit
Festool sanders because of the hole pattern (there is center hole), but
they are hook and loop so I certainly don't why see someone wanting to
cut out some paper dolls couldn't have had it.

Haven't found the Festool paper to be out of line with other high
quality abrasives, particularly since you get a lot more mileage out of
the paper when using the dust extraction system, and get a lot more work
done with fewer sheet of abrasives.

That's about the best I can do ... check out the FOG forum, ask the
question, and there is little doubt your will get much more informative
answers.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote:

Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of
different types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool
sanders ... this was for special purposes where there was no
comparable Festool abrasive available, so it can be done.
snip

SFWIW, Klingspor has punched specials for me at competitive levels.

Since Festool and Klingspor both call the fatherland home, should be
doable.

Lew

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 2/7/2011 9:53 AM, Max wrote:

My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
Leon.
I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
(proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.

Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of different
types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool sanders ...
this was for special purposes where there was no comparable Festool
abrasive available, so it can be done.

I don't know whether any other sander manufacturer's abrasives will fit
Festool sanders because of the hole pattern (there is center hole), but
they are hook and loop so I certainly don't why see someone wanting to cut
out some paper dolls couldn't have had it.

Haven't found the Festool paper to be out of line with other high quality
abrasives, particularly since you get a lot more mileage out of the paper
when using the dust extraction system, and get a lot more work done with
fewer sheet of abrasives.

That's about the best I can do ... check out the FOG forum, ask the
question, and there is little doubt your will get much more informative
answers.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Many thanks.
I did post the question at the FOG forum and got essentially the same info
as you provided.
I also checked some prices and, as you say, the Festool prices aren't out of
line.
I'll be ordering my sander and abrasives tomorrow.

Max

On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 18:41:36 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/7/2011 9:53 AM, Max wrote:

My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
Leon.
I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
(proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.

Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of
different types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool
sanders ... this was for special purposes where there was no comparable
Festool abrasive available, so it can be done.

I don't know whether any other sander manufacturer's abrasives will fit
Festool sanders because of the hole pattern (there is center hole), but
they are hook and loop so I certainly don't why see someone wanting to
cut out some paper dolls couldn't have had it.

I wouldn't want to quad-fold my sandpaper disc before use, would you?
HF sells inexpensive hollow punches if you can't find a piece of
tubing to handle it. Everyone should aready have one, IMHO.
http://tinyurl.com/4vxmep8 $6.49 for 9pc set.


Haven't found the Festool paper to be out of line with other high
quality abrasives, particularly since you get a lot more mileage out of
the paper when using the dust extraction system, and get a lot more work
done with fewer sheet of abrasives.

$37 and change for 50 discs at Amazon. Not too bad.

--
If the American people ever allow private banks to control
the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by
deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up
around them will deprive the people of all property until
their children wake up homeless on the continent their
Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions
are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...
The issuing power should be taken from the banks and
restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
--Thomas Jefferson

On Feb 7, 7:41*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 2/7/2011 9:53 AM, Max wrote:



My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
Leon.
I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
(proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.

Max ... I've seen videos of guys punching holes out of sheets of
different types of hook and loop abrasives and using them on Festool
sanders ... this was for special purposes where there was no comparable
Festool abrasive available, so it can be done.

I don't know whether any other sander manufacturer's abrasives will fit
Festool sanders because of the hole pattern (there is center hole), but
they are hook and loop so I certainly don't why see someone wanting to
cut out some paper dolls couldn't have had it.

Haven't found the Festool paper to be out of line with other high
quality abrasives, particularly since you get a lot more mileage out of
the paper when using the dust extraction system, and get a lot more work
done with fewer sheet of abrasives.

That's about the best I can do ... check out the FOG forum, ask the
question, and there is little doubt your will get much more informative
answers.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

That centre hole is a crucial part in the way the dust collection
works... very clever.

"Han" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in
:
Snip


Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you live
or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?


I would absolutely buy locally if they had what I wanted. There is no
advantage to buying from any other location, online or otherwise other than
availability.

While some don't like the idea of Festool dictating pricing I prefer that
every one charges the same price so that you know that you are not paying
more than somewhere else.

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...

My thanks to all who contributed to the discussion; especially Karl and
Leon.
I still would like to know if the Festool *requires* a special
(proprietary) sanding disc or can I use other brands of abrasives.

Max



The disk is special, however whether it is proprietaty or not I do not know.
I found the pricing of the Festool paper to be quite reasonable and it is
top quality. So far I have only used the Ruben grade papers in the 120,
150, and 180 grits.

If you use this paper and equipment with a vacuum, let me warn you that
knowing when to change out worn out paper is something new to learn. In the
past I relied on the dust not building as fast, there is no longer any of
that to see. In the past I would look at the sand paper to see how clogged
it was getting, new and worn out sand paper usually look the same now.

My first indicator that the paper is shot is the one that always worked, is
it still cutting like a new sheet. Have a new piece close by, drag you
finger across the new and then the old. If the old does not grab at your
finger like the new it is time to replace it. You will find however that
this paper tends to last longer because it usually stays clean and
unclogged.

On Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:02:21 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:


"Han" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in
:
Snip


Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you live
or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?


I would absolutely buy locally if they had what I wanted. There is no
advantage to buying from any other location, online or otherwise other than
availability.

I love buying locally--when they don't insist on retail pricing. But
when they are merely an outlet, with no additional consultation or
support, that makes no sense at all. Some local outlets sell but do NO
warranty at all, even replacement of obvious mfgr defects. I'm sure
that with the prices Festool gets, they demand more and better of
their dealers than that.


While some don't like the idea of Festool dictating pricing I prefer that
every one charges the same price so that you know that you are not paying
more than somewhere else.

I'd rather pay wholesale ANY DAY, than to be forced to pay retail
(twice the price) on anything. Makita's SP6000K, the improved clone
of the Festool TS55, retails for $614 but Amazon has it for $360
delivered. I prefer a non-dictated price for obvious reasons. I know
how to shop and I shop for value, not just price. I'll spend a little
more to a known dealer and easier warranty system.

The Bosch and Makita impact drivers were definitely worth the hundreds
I spent on each as I use them ruggedly, daily, year after year. For
other things, I can get away with Chiwanese stuff. It all works out.

--
Education should provide the tools for a widening and deepening
of life, for increased appreciation of all one sees or experiences.
It should equip a person to live life well, to understand what is
happening around him, for to live life well one must live life with
awareness. -- Louis L'Amour

"Leon" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in
:
Snip


Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you
live or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?


I would absolutely buy locally if they had what I wanted. There is no
advantage to buying from any other location, online or otherwise other
than availability.

While some don't like the idea of Festool dictating pricing I prefer
that every one charges the same price so that you know that you are
not paying more than somewhere else.

That's what I would prefer to, Leon. I went to see a "local" hardware
store that has an upper floor with all kinds of demo stuff, including
lots of Festool. Salespeople at Godwin Hardware were very nice and
helpful. It's almost 6 miles away, but we do have roads here in Bergen
county :-)}, and they're even cleared by now. I just have to get over
the stratospheric prices. I'm just a beginning amateur after all ...

(And, Larry, I agree with your statements, but one can make an argument
that at times, the quest for lower prices has lowered all qulaity as
well.)

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Han" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in
:

(And, Larry, I agree with your statements, but one can make an argument
that at times, the quest for lower prices has lowered all qulaity as
well.)


One of the problems with not supporting local business even if they don't
offer more to you than the internet is that they help support your
community. If they go out of business or leave your area you no longer get
their tax support and typically a Doller General takes their place and that
is followed by people that think Dollar General is high priced. And those
people typically bring the value of the neighbor hood down. It becomes a
downward spiral and not a great place to live.

"Leon" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in
:

(And, Larry, I agree with your statements, but one can make an
argument that at times, the quest for lower prices has lowered all
qulaity as well.)


One of the problems with not supporting local business even if they
don't offer more to you than the internet is that they help support
your community. If they go out of business or leave your area you no
longer get their tax support and typically a Doller General takes
their place and that is followed by people that think Dollar General
is high priced. And those people typically bring the value of the
neighbor hood down. It becomes a downward spiral and not a great
place to live.

Absolutely right Leon. We had a nice local hardware store. Not as fancy
as Godwin's, but within walking distance. It's gone now. First the
owner was "forced" (I don't know the details) to switch to a larger store
50 or so feet away in the same strip mall, so his old store could become
a Panera's. I am not sure the amount of business warranted the store,
but I went there as often as I could. The owner also had cancer, and
recently died, upon which the store was permanently closed, reinforcing
the impression it was no longer viable.

So now I have to go 6 miles rather than 550 yards ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 08 Feb 2011 14:13:51 GMT, Han wrote:

"Leon" wrote in
m:


"Han" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in
:
Snip


Would you buy from the closest store (brick and mortar) to where you
live or an on-line store more dedicated to Festool?


I would absolutely buy locally if they had what I wanted. There is no
advantage to buying from any other location, online or otherwise other
than availability.

While some don't like the idea of Festool dictating pricing I prefer
that every one charges the same price so that you know that you are
not paying more than somewhere else.

That's what I would prefer to, Leon. I went to see a "local" hardware
store that has an upper floor with all kinds of demo stuff, including
lots of Festool. Salespeople at Godwin Hardware were very nice and
helpful. It's almost 6 miles away, but we do have roads here in Bergen
county :-)}, and they're even cleared by now. I just have to get over
the stratospheric prices. I'm just a beginning amateur after all ...

You meant thermospheric, didn't you?


(And, Larry, I agree with your statements, but one can make an argument
that at times, the quest for lower prices has lowered all qulaity as
well.)

Are you saying that Festools aren't what they used to be, Han?

I disagree, thinking instead that mass acceptance of ****ty,
quality-free items has lowered the overall quality levels because the
mfgrs know they can get away with it. Had people NOT bought the crap,
it wouldn't now exist, or would be much diminished.

--
Education should provide the tools for a widening and deepening
of life, for increased appreciation of all one sees or experiences.
It should equip a person to live life well, to understand what is
happening around him, for to live life well one must live life with
awareness. -- Louis L'Amour