I have made a solemn oath: I can buy blades and "wear related" items,
jig supplies, fastening hardware and wood for the shop, but nothing
else. Even planes are out (that is a toughie, though if I stumble across
a bunch of excellent quality cheap molding planes I WILL sin). OK, I am
not 100% successful at keeping it (and man does those HVLP threads make
me tempted) but I am working hard to keeping it.

But, I really would like to try a little veneering and -- if that works
-- start making my own veneer (for my own uses, not commercially). I
don't own a veneer press, don't own a vacuum press. Reading a very old
article by Tage Frid, he makes hammer veneering sound pretty doable.
However, a later article by Ian Kirby says it is pretty hard to do.

Has anyone had any experience doing this that they would be willing to
share? Particularly on success rate, number of tries to "get it right"
and success with thick veneers of the sort you tend to get off of a
bandsaw/planer set-up.

Paul K

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:07:49 GMT, Paul Kierstead
wrote:

I have made a solemn oath: I can buy blades and "wear related" items,
jig supplies, fastening hardware and wood for the shop, but nothing
else.


loophole:

you can *make* yourself a veneer press.....

G





Even planes are out (that is a toughie, though if I stumble across
a bunch of excellent quality cheap molding planes I WILL sin). OK, I am
not 100% successful at keeping it (and man does those HVLP threads make
me tempted) but I am working hard to keeping it.

But, I really would like to try a little veneering and -- if that works
-- start making my own veneer (for my own uses, not commercially). I
don't own a veneer press, don't own a vacuum press. Reading a very old
article by Tage Frid, he makes hammer veneering sound pretty doable.
However, a later article by Ian Kirby says it is pretty hard to do.

Has anyone had any experience doing this that they would be willing to
share? Particularly on success rate, number of tries to "get it right"
and success with thick veneers of the sort you tend to get off of a
bandsaw/planer set-up.

Paul K

Tried this, very tricky. Requires a real good touch, heat-press-move,
heat-press-move, give up. Get a piece of veneer, real veneer, not the
stuff from Woodcraft, its too flat. Flatten it, takes several days,
instructions on net. Spread glue, let dry, set iron on pretty warm,
lay down veneer, heat-press-move, watch veneer buckle,
heat-press-move, cuss, give up.
Plan B. Flatten 2 pieces veneer, one for each side. Get oversize MDF
at the Big Orange store. Put yellow glue on both sides. Put veneer on
both sides about an inch form one edge. Put garbage bag over veneer.
put MDF over garbage bag. Clamp well. come back tomorrow. Unclamp,
trim to suit. Works for me.

Be sure finish is water resistant or the drool will leave spots.

Paul Kierstead wrote in message rs.com...
I have made a solemn oath: I can buy blades and "wear related" items,
jig supplies, fastening hardware and wood for the shop, but nothing
else. Even planes are out (that is a toughie, though if I stumble across
a bunch of excellent quality cheap molding planes I WILL sin). OK, I am
not 100% successful at keeping it (and man does those HVLP threads make
me tempted) but I am working hard to keeping it.

But, I really would like to try a little veneering and -- if that works
-- start making my own veneer (for my own uses, not commercially). I
don't own a veneer press, don't own a vacuum press. Reading a very old
article by Tage Frid, he makes hammer veneering sound pretty doable.
However, a later article by Ian Kirby says it is pretty hard to do.

Has anyone had any experience doing this that they would be willing to
share? Particularly on success rate, number of tries to "get it right"
and success with thick veneers of the sort you tend to get off of a
bandsaw/planer set-up.

Paul K

In article pmkierst-079689.02080109032004
@nntp.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com,
says...
Has anyone had any experience doing this that they would be willing to
share? Particularly on success rate, number of tries to "get it right"
and success with thick veneers of the sort you tend to get off of a
bandsaw/planer set-up.


Nope! But let me suggest "Making Classic English Furniture," by Paul
Richardson, Guild of MasterCraftsman Publishers. He has an excellent
section of the technique of veneering: demystifies it very well. He uses
hide glue, which eliminates most of the problems relating to finishing
the project.

Kim

In article ,
Bridger wrote:

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:07:49 GMT, Paul Kierstead
wrote:

I have made a solemn oath: I can buy blades and "wear related" items,
jig supplies, fastening hardware and wood for the shop, but nothing
else.


loophole:

you can *make* yourself a veneer press.....


A very intentional loophole. After making some rudimentry jigs and other
things instead of buying them, I realized it was great experience and
that they worked the way *I* wanted them to. And were cheaper on top of
that. So making a veneer press is very much in the picture. *However* my
longer range intention is to veneer large surfaces; with a press I am
limited and my shop can only accomodate so large of a press. With hammer
veneering, Tage Frid claims you can "veneer the world". Although I have
have a wood threader, so I could make a veneer press with very minimal
investment...

Interesting you should ask. I read the Frid article and it seemed so easy.
I was making a dining room table.....My wife agreed to help me with my first
hammer veneering project. That was 25 years ago. It became known as our
first "divorce". Talk about mess...hot (burned) hide glue, burned fingers,
wrinkled veneer, terrible seams and lots of yelling. We are still together
but....I have taken a solemn pledge....no more hammer veneering. The table
is still in daily use; with its cherry plywood top. Anyone want a slightly
used veneer hammer?
Dave
"Kim Whitmyre" wrote in message
...
In article pmkierst-079689.02080109032004
@nntp.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com,
says...
Has anyone had any experience doing this that they would be willing to
share? Particularly on success rate, number of tries to "get it right"
and success with thick veneers of the sort you tend to get off of a
bandsaw/planer set-up.


Nope! But let me suggest "Making Classic English Furniture," by Paul
Richardson, Guild of MasterCraftsman Publishers. He has an excellent
section of the technique of veneering: demystifies it very well. He uses
hide glue, which eliminates most of the problems relating to finishing
the project.

Kim

In article ,
"Dave W" wrote:

Interesting you should ask. I read the Frid article and it seemed so easy.
I was making a dining room table.....My wife agreed to help me with my first
hammer veneering project. That was 25 years ago. It became known as our
first "divorce". Talk about mess...hot (burned) hide glue, burned fingers,
wrinkled veneer, terrible seams and lots of yelling.

Ouch. Nothing that I read seems to get around to mentioning that the
hide glue is quite *HOT*. Ran up some water to that temp, and it is
pretty hot.

Anyone want a slightly
used veneer hammer?


Naw, I am gonna make my own

Paul K

I'm taking a one day course on the 20th. If your interested I could let y
ou know what I learned.

"Paul Kierstead" wrote in message
news
I have made a solemn oath: I can buy blades and "wear related" items,
jig supplies, fastening hardware and wood for the shop, but nothing
else. Even planes are out (that is a toughie, though if I stumble across
a bunch of excellent quality cheap molding planes I WILL sin). OK, I am
not 100% successful at keeping it (and man does those HVLP threads make
me tempted) but I am working hard to keeping it.

But, I really would like to try a little veneering and -- if that works
-- start making my own veneer (for my own uses, not commercially). I
don't own a veneer press, don't own a vacuum press. Reading a very old
article by Tage Frid, he makes hammer veneering sound pretty doable.
However, a later article by Ian Kirby says it is pretty hard to do.

Has anyone had any experience doing this that they would be willing to
share? Particularly on success rate, number of tries to "get it right"
and success with thick veneers of the sort you tend to get off of a
bandsaw/planer set-up.

Paul K

In article ,
"RBK" wrote:

I'm taking a one day course on the 20th. If your interested I could let y
ou know what I learned.


Sure would love to hear it! Particularly any "tricks and tips" you
picked up. I actually gave it a swing yesterday....piece of wood for the
hammer, hot-pot for the glue pot. First one was awful. Second one was
better. Will be posting more on all that I guess. But would to hear your
experiences.

Paul Kierstead wrote in message rs.com...
In article ,
"RBK" wrote:

I'm taking a one day course on the 20th. If your interested I could let y
ou know what I learned.


Sure would love to hear it! Particularly any "tricks and tips" you
picked up. I actually gave it a swing yesterday....piece of wood for the
hammer, hot-pot for the glue pot. First one was awful. Second one was
better. Will be posting more on all that I guess. But would to hear your
experiences.

Well I took the class. I am going to give a very short description of
what I found out because the instructor will be giving the details in
a Fine Woodworking Master Class to be published in the next issue or
so.

We spent some time discussing the various options for materials while
we waited for the glue to heat up. We used hide glue on mahogany
veneer applied to MDF. We practiced cutting the veneer and then
joining pieces using a couple of different methods. The following is a
summary of the major points

Hide Glue - You want to use this if your project will allow. It gives
you a reasonable working time and is reversible and repairable. The
are several different kinds of hide glue. The stuff sold in many
stores is a pearl type which takes forever to dissolve and heat and
probably has unknown characteristics. The characteristics of the hide
can be controlled when they make it. Get a 192 type ground hide glue
if you can find it. Places that specialize in materials for making
guitars will be your best source.

Veneer Saw - Used to trim the veneer. They cost about $20 - $30 and
will probably need a little tuning up before use. Remove any burrs on
the base ect. When you cut with the saw you will probably use some
kind of straightedge. A 2X4 with a jointed edge will give you a large
flat surface that the back of the
veneer saw can index on to give you a good straight 90 degree cut.

Veneer Hammer - Look like a window squeegee. Used to press and scrap
the veneer to get the glue flat, air bubbles out and the veneer edges
tightly joined (if you are matching seams). You can buy one or you can
look at a picture of one get yourself a piece of hardwood a large
dowel for the handle(sometime omitted) and a small piece of 1/8 - 1/4
inch brass to inlay and epoxy on the edge to a grove cut in the
hardwood edge.

Glue pot - Heats the hide glue and keeps it a proper temperature. You
can use double boilers or any thing else you can dream up to
accomplish the same but it's not a good idea to have the glue overheat
(or not be hot enough) so use a thermometer if you don't use a glue
pot, be careful.

Hand plane with a serrated blade or rough sandpaper - Used to prepare
the base material before gluing. They make a specialty hand plane if
you can find one but sandpaper will work fine. Rough up the surface
and clean the sandpaper dust off.

Masking tape and veneer tape - Use to tape together any joined pieces
prior to applying the veneer to the base. This should be covered in
the FWW article

Card Scraper - Used to scrape clean the veneer top after the glue has
set.

Common house iron - Not a good idea to use your spouse's good one. Get
a used one. Used with a wet rag between the iron and veneer to reheat
and loosen veneer to correct any voids, glue pocket etc. In fact to
whole piece of veneer can be removed if necessary. Good idea to
practice this before you really do it to a good piece.

Basic rules

1. Remember to apply glue to the base and to both side of the veneer.
The top will have the glue "Squeezed" off when using the veneer
hammer. By applying to both side of the veneer you will minimize any
curling effect caused if you applied glue to one side only.

2. Be sure to keep working the veneer hammer to flatten any glue
pocket and air bubbles. You will know when the glue starts to set up
as the veneer piece will stop moving on the base and the glue on top
will start to ball up and look like it came out of your nose.

3. The edges are the hardest part. Make sure all the edges are
"squeezed" flat and are completely glued all around. Be careful as it
is easy to crack the edge of any vaneer overlaping the base.

In article ,
(RBK) wrote:

Well I took the class. I am going to give a very short description of
what I found out because the instructor will be giving the details in
a Fine Woodworking Master Class to be published in the next issue or
so.

Really appreciate the report. Quite helpful and will be looking towards
the article. Nice to work with someone "respected".

Veneer Saw - Used to trim the veneer. They cost about $20 - $30 and
will probably need a little tuning up before use. Remove any burrs on
the base ect. When you cut with the saw you will probably use some
kind of straightedge. A 2X4 with a jointed edge will give you a large
flat surface that the back of the
veneer saw can index on to give you a good straight 90 degree cut.

I bought one for C$13. I got about that much worth of saw; needed quite
a bit of work, and needs a little more, but does the trick OK now.


Veneer Hammer - Look like a window squeegee. Used to press and scrap
the veneer to get the glue flat, air bubbles out and the veneer edges
tightly joined (if you are matching seams). You can buy one or you can
look at a picture of one get yourself a piece of hardwood a large
dowel for the handle(sometime omitted) and a small piece of 1/8 - 1/4
inch brass to inlay and epoxy on the edge to a grove cut in the
hardwood edge.

Heh, in the meantime I went off and made one. I used 1/8" aluminum.
Pretty rough, but should do the job:
http://homepage.mac.com/paulkierstea...eer_hammer.jpg

Glue pot - Heats the hide glue and keeps it a proper temperature. You
can use double boilers or any thing else you can dream up to
accomplish the same but it's not a good idea to have the glue overheat
(or not be hot enough) so use a thermometer if you don't use a glue
pot, be careful.


I have been using a "Hot Pot" (C$20 at WalMart) with a candy
thermometer. Seems to work well, so long as you get the water in it hot
_first_, otherwise I think the heating element in the bottom would
overheat the glue. I just have the glue in a mason jar.


Hand plane with a serrated blade or rough sandpaper - Used to prepare
the base material before gluing. They make a specialty hand plane if
you can find one but sandpaper will work fine. Rough up the surface
and clean the sandpaper dust off.

Good tip. On my couple of trial runs, I didn't rough it up. I think this
might be especially important on something like MDF which is so smooth
to start.

Common house iron - Not a good idea to use your spouse's good one. Get
a used one. Used with a wet rag between the iron and veneer to reheat
and loosen veneer to correct any voids, glue pocket etc. In fact to
whole piece of veneer can be removed if necessary. Good idea to
practice this before you really do it to a good piece.

I am using the one I use to wax my skis...

3. The edges are the hardest part. Make sure all the edges are
"squeezed" flat and are completely glued all around. Be careful as it
is easy to crack the edge of any vaneer overlaping the base.

I'll say. In my two trial runs, I had the hardest time with the edges.

How well did the MDF work? Did it suck up glue like crazy? My first two
tries varied...first one was one some very crappy softwood plywood. It
telegraphed through. The second was on a scrap of baltic birch ply; no
telegraphing in that case. But I have been eyeing some MDF...

Thanks for the update, much appreciated.

"Paul Kierstead" wrote in message
news

How well did the MDF work? Did it suck up glue like crazy? My first two
tries varied...first one was one some very crappy softwood plywood. It
telegraphed through. The second was on a scrap of baltic birch ply; no
telegraphing in that case. But I have been eyeing some MDF...

Thanks for the update, much appreciated.


The edges of the MDF can suck up a lot of glue. So here's what you can do to
help that situation.
Depending on your brand of Hide Glue mix up a batch with twice as much
water.
Normal - 1 cup Ground Hide glue - 2 Cups water
Wash Coat - 1 cup Ground Hide Glue - 4 Cups Water
Apply this wash coat to the MDF and let it dry. If you are doing the edges
you may have to try this more then once. Using "real" wood as an edging
material on MDF is highly recommended over veneering the edges.

Veneer is thin so defects will telegraph through. You could try applying
multiple layers of Veneer. If you do treat it like you were making normal
plywood and alternate your "grain" direction. If the base is really bad it
will eventually telegraph through so use a good stable base.

ER doc posted about the Rival Hot Pot Express a few years ago that has
a dial for maintaining heat at less than max. Mine was at a drug
store for $15.00USD.

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 00:59:06 GMT, Paul Kierstead
wrote:


I have been using a "Hot Pot" (C$20 at WalMart) with a candy
thermometer. Seems to work well, so long as you get the water in it hot
_first_, otherwise I think the heating element in the bottom would
overheat the glue. I just have the glue in a mason jar.

In article ,
" wrote:

ER doc posted about the Rival Hot Pot Express a few years ago that has
a dial for maintaining heat at less than max. Mine was at a drug
store for $15.00USD.

That is pretty much what I am using. However, the elemen is on the
bottom; this means until the water bath gets up to temp, the bottom
element will be quite hot, running the risk of overheating the bottom of
the glue container. So I just let the water get to temp first and then
the element runs in very short cycles.

In article ,
"RBK" wrote:

The edges of the MDF can suck up a lot of glue. So here's what you can do to
help that situation.
Depending on your brand of Hide Glue mix up a batch with twice as much
water.
Normal - 1 cup Ground Hide glue - 2 Cups water
Wash Coat - 1 cup Ground Hide Glue - 4 Cups Water
Apply this wash coat to the MDF and let it dry. If you are doing the edges
you may have to try this more then once. Using "real" wood as an edging
material on MDF is highly recommended over veneering the edges.

Thanks for the very valuable tip; filed away. I would generally always
lean towards solid wood edging anyway, but just-in-case that is pretty
handy to know.