Today we had a small job to do for a local suburban school district.
The job was to build a desk around three sides of a 14' x14' room. Not
too difficult but since it was 9 degrees this morning and we had no
place at the site to work, the school board let us use the former
industrial arts building (a couple of blocks away) to set up our
equipment.
The building brought back 35 year old memories of shop class. This
was a big old building, I'm guessing 60' x200' with the old dust
collection system hanging in pieces everywhere. About half the lights
were on which gave it an eerie haunted feeling. There was a narrow
balcony with old wood racks now filled with cob webs over about a
third of the length of the place. Most of the floor space was covered
with assorted school crap like folding chairs stage risers and about
anything else that would go in the place. Not many machines left, a
huge drill press, and old metal lathe, an 18" Rockwell planer, and an
old green Powermatic table saw with no fence system or motor. A 25'
finishing bench was still there with the skeletons of exhaust ports
hanging from the tall ceiling every 4' or so. You could just imagine
a line of kids standing there sanding on the same shop project.

The sad part about it was that although this was once one hell of a
shop, there is no longer an industrial arts curriculum at the school
district. As with many school districts, I guess costs, insurance
and policies that lean more toward college prep, have rendered the
building (as well as the classes it once housed) obsolete.
While I never thought my three fingered shop teacher ever taught me
much that applied to the real world, I always enjoyed the classes and
it just seems to me to be something else that kids today will miss out
on.
Another sign of the times.......


Mike O.

Mike O. wrote:

Today we had a small job to do for a local suburban school district.
The job was to build a desk around three sides of a 14' x14' room. Not
too difficult but since it was 9 degrees this morning and we had no
place at the site to work, the school board let us use the former
industrial arts building (a couple of blocks away) to set up our
equipment.
The building brought back 35 year old memories of shop class. This
was a big old building, I'm guessing 60' x200' with the old dust
collection system hanging in pieces everywhere. About half the lights
were on which gave it an eerie haunted feeling. There was a narrow
balcony with old wood racks now filled with cob webs over about a
third of the length of the place. Most of the floor space was covered
with assorted school crap like folding chairs stage risers and about
anything else that would go in the place. Not many machines left, a
huge drill press, and old metal lathe, an 18" Rockwell planer, and an
old green Powermatic table saw with no fence system or motor. A 25'
finishing bench was still there with the skeletons of exhaust ports
hanging from the tall ceiling every 4' or so. You could just imagine
a line of kids standing there sanding on the same shop project.

The sad part about it was that although this was once one hell of a
shop, there is no longer an industrial arts curriculum at the school
district. As with many school districts, I guess costs, insurance
and policies that lean more toward college prep, have rendered the
building (as well as the classes it once housed) obsolete.
While I never thought my three fingered shop teacher ever taught me
much that applied to the real world, I always enjoyed the classes and
it just seems to me to be something else that kids today will miss out
on.
Another sign of the times.......

That's really a shame. I will admit that when I went to High School, I
concentrated mostly upon college prep courses because I knew I wanted to be
an Engineer. However, I did get to take welding and auto shop classes.
When I got to college, I really wished I had the chance to take drafting as
well. That said, college is not for everyone and the shop classes served
as great a function of preparing students for the real world as college
prep classes served to prepare those bound for college. Trying to fit
everyone into the college track mold does no one any favors.

Are the classes that used to be taught in high school shops now being
taught in community and vocational tech schools?




--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:32:57 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

Are the classes that used to be taught in high school shops now being
taught in community and vocational tech schools?

In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

Mike O. wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:32:57 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

Are the classes that used to be taught in high school shops now being
taught in community and vocational tech schools?

In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until that late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time, students are
pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go. The advantage to
teaching at the high school and junior high level is that it gives all
students and opportunity to get some familiarity with equipment and tools.
That can develop into a life-long appreciation for the manual arts, even if
one is not making a living in that field.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Mark & Juanita wrote in
m:

Mike O. wrote:


In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until that
late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go.
The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level is
that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a living
in that field.


I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is home
ec, the other half is shop.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Dec 23, 3:38*am, Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
Mark & Juanita wrote innews:MfOdnXCpzbDf4M3UnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@supernews. com:



Mike O. wrote:

In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. * With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

* That is a good thing partially. *One downside to waiting until that
* late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go.
The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level is
that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a living
in that field.

I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. *This might be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. *Half the year is home
ec, the other half is shop.

Puckdropper

Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
girls! OHMIGAWD!

But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
home ec.

Around here, the woodworking courses in HS were the big thing. They're
now like Ivory soap, 99 44/100% pure--pure gone, that is, with the
tools sold, and shop space converted to other uses. There simply are
far fewer furniture makers around here now. Last week, one of the two
remaining nearby announced it was laying off 90 of its 130 staff,
permanently.

Puckdropper wrote:
Mark & Juanita wrote in
m:

Mike O. wrote:


In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related
to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until
that
late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to
go.
The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level
is
that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a
living
in that field.


I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might
be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety
and preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is
home ec, the other half is shop.

Beats the Hell out of most of my time in school. What bugs me is that
people who escape from those torture chambers send their kids right
back and act like it's a good idea.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Charlie Self wrote in
:


Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
girls! OHMIGAWD!

It still seems like a 95/5 split for the classes that aren't required.

But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
home ec.

The fiscal end is taught in many schools. It's called something like
Consumers Education and teaches you things like balancing checkbooks
(equal weight on both sides?) and how to fill out tax forms. Best thing
about that class was a certain blonde...

Around here, the woodworking courses in HS were the big thing. They're
now like Ivory soap, 99 44/100% pure--pure gone, that is, with the
tools sold, and shop space converted to other uses. There simply are
far fewer furniture makers around here now. Last week, one of the two
remaining nearby announced it was laying off 90 of its 130 staff,
permanently.


Shop and band were the two classes I felt were best for my mental state.
They were the only places that were fun on a regular basis.

I've got to wonder how the next generation's going to turn out without
these "unnecessary" classes.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:39:34 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:

Puckdropper wrote:
Mark & Juanita wrote in
m:

Mike O. wrote:


In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related
to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until
that
late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to
go.
The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level
is
that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a
living
in that field.


I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might
be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety
and preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is
home ec, the other half is shop.

Beats the Hell out of most of my time in school. What bugs me is that
people who escape from those torture chambers send their kids right
back and act like it's a good idea.

--

In most all cases the parents have no choice about sending their kids to
the schools, as the law requires it. They can not even send them to a
trade school instead of regular school. You may call them torture
chambers, but how many would be unable to read to write if they did not
attend the schools. Even now there is many who drop out of school that can
not fill out a job application.

Paul T.

--
The only dumb question, is the one not asked

Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote in
m:

Mike O. wrote:


In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until that
late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go.
The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level is
that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a living
in that field.


I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is home
ec, the other half is shop.


Not a bad idea actually. When I was in high school, it was half a year
of "Single Survival" (the course on basic home economics for guys, but even
then they could no longer call it "Bachelor Survival") and the other half
was Driver's Ed.




Puckdropper

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This might be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is home
ec, the other half is shop.

Puckdropper


In jr. high, we had two semesters of shop/home ec. The first semester,
they put the guys in shop and the girls in home ec. The second semester,
it was each student's choice.

Near the end of the first semester, when it was time to sign up for the
next, I walked down the hall and peered into the classrooms of each. One
classroom was filled with cute girls..... the other wasn't. I showed
that disparity to a couple friends, and we all three singed up for home
ec for the next semester. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Dec 23, 12:55 am, Mark & Juanita wrote:

That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until that late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time, students are
pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go. The advantage to
teaching at the high school and junior high level is that it gives all
students and opportunity to get some familiarity with equipment and tools.
That can develop into a life-long appreciation for the manual arts, even if
one is not making a living in that field.

I had shop classes all through middle school and the power tools
scared the hell out of me. It wasn't until after college that I
really got going with woodworking. It had more to do with having
access to Dad's tools than anything I got in school. So you never
know.

-Kevin

On Dec 23, 4:25*am, Charlie Self wrote:
On Dec 23, 3:38*am, Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:





Mark & Juanita wrote innews:MfOdnXCpzbDf4M3UnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@supernews. com:

Mike O. wrote:

In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. * With the
support of both the community and local business there is a pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

* That is a good thing partially. *One downside to waiting until that
* late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to go.
The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high level is
that it gives all students and opportunity to get some familiarity
with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a living
in that field.

I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. *This might be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food safety and
preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. *Half the year is home
ec, the other half is shop.

Puckdropper

Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
girls! OHMIGAWD!

But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
home ec.

Around here, the woodworking courses in HS were the big thing. They're
now like Ivory soap, 99 44/100% pure--pure gone, that is, with the
tools sold, and shop space converted to other uses. There simply are
far fewer furniture makers around here now. Last week, one of the two
remaining nearby announced it was laying off 90 of its 130 staff,
permanently.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chalie, etal,
Jamestown, NY used to be almost all furniture plants, but they've gone
the way of all things. Crawford Furniture is probably the biggest one
left, unless you count Bush Industries(kit furniture) I think Fancher
Chair is still opeating too, but the "giants" that built the city also
stagnated it, and they're all gone now.
Norm

PHT wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:39:34 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:

Puckdropper wrote:
Mark & Juanita wrote in
m:

Mike O. wrote:


In this area we have a lot of aircraft manufacturing. With the
support of both the community and local business there is a
pretty
serious effort made toward improving vocational training related
to
that type of manufacturing.

Mike O.

That is a good thing partially. One downside to waiting until
that
late
to introduce students to shop principles is that by that time,
students are pretty well embarked on the direction they intend to
go.
The advantage to teaching at the high school and junior high
level
is
that it gives all students and opportunity to get some
familiarity
with equipment and tools. That can develop into a life-long
appreciation for the manual arts, even if one is not making a
living
in that field.


I believe every person who goes through school should have a basic
introduction to the use and safety of basic hand tools. This
might
be
basic hand-held power tools such as circular saws and drills.

They also need a basic introduction to cooking, such as food
safety
and preparation of easy things like hamburgers, eggs, and the
like.

Sounds like a decent way to spend a school year. Half the year is
home ec, the other half is shop.

Beats the Hell out of most of my time in school. What bugs me is
that people who escape from those torture chambers send their kids
right back and act like it's a good idea.

--

In most all cases the parents have no choice about sending their
kids
to the schools, as the law requires it.

The law requires it but that doesn't mean that the parents have to
like it.

They can not even send them
to a trade school instead of regular school.

They have the option of private schools if they can afford them or
home schooling if either parent has the time. If parents didn't like
sending their kids to those miserable schools the law would have been
changed long since.

You may call them torture
chambers, but how many would be unable to read to write if they did
not attend the schools. Even now there is many who drop out of
school
that can not fill out a job application.

There are many who finished school who cannot fill out a job
application too.

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre results.
The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't wash. What did
you personally learn in the public schools school other than to read
and write and do sums that was of any real value in later life?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:10:49 -0600, Mike O. wrote:

While I never thought my three fingered shop teacher ever taught me
much that applied to the real world, I always enjoyed the classes and
it just seems to me to be something else that kids today will miss out
on.

I took metal shop, woodworking shop, and print shop. Even today, I retain
some of the ability to read mirror images :-).

In WW, I was all thumbs. Thank goodness I haven't retained that :-).

And all I can remember about metal shop was heating the
(non-electric) soldering irons in a little oven.

Larry Blanchard wrote:
Even today, I retain
some of the ability to read mirror images :-).


There was a girl in school who could write cursive in mirror image,
almost as quickly as one could write normally.
She would sign all the yearbooks like that. It was funny to see people
in the bathroom, holding their yearbooks up to the mirror in order to
read them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Charlie Self wrote:



Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
girls! OHMIGAWD!

But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
home ec.

In 9th grade (ca. 1965), all the shop boys (including me) spent 6 weeks in Home
Ec and the Home Ec girls spent 6 weeks in shop. We all thought it was silly at
the time. Shows what we knew. -- Doug

Charlie Self wrote:

Home Ec for guys used to be the thing we all giggled at. Shop for
girls! OHMIGAWD!

But, yeah, you're right, They both should be offered, and at least a
basic course in each should be mandatory, as should the fiscal end of
home ec.

As long as they actually *teach* some economics and budgeting. I took
a Home Ec course in my high school in 1968 or '69 I think. Their idea
of teaching economics was to play the board game "Life." When I pointed
out that the game *required* me and my partner to purchase a car for
our teenager with a budget that would not really support it, the
instructor didn't seem to care. Sigh.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

"J. Clarke" wrote:

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre results.
The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't wash. What did
you personally learn in the public schools school other than to read
and write and do sums that was of any real value in later life?

Touch typing. Driver's Ed. Drafting. History and Government. Wood shop.
Chemistry and Physics. Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus. (If you'd like
to include those in "sums", that's fine.) -- Doug

Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
in later life?

Touch typing.

Ok, I admit, that was useful.

Driver's Ed.

Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a whole
semester of that crap.

Drafting.

Lucky you. I got one mechanical drawing course. Learned vastly more
from my mother's college drafting text.

History and Government.

What did you learn about history and government that was (a) useful
and (b) true? I'm _still_ unlearning that crap.

Wood shop.

Again, lucky you.

Chemistry and Physics.

When have you actually used it?

Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.

Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found mathematical
proofs to be particularly useful. Trig, OK, I'll grant you that one.

(If you'd like to include those in "sums", that's fine.) -- Doug

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Chemistry and Physics.

When have you actually used it?

Electricity; magnetism; optics; basic kinetics; surface tension of polar
fluids; combustion products; oxidation and reduction reactions; acids and
bases; metallurgy of tool steels...


Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.

Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found mathematical
proofs to be particularly useful. Trig, OK, I'll grant you that one.

These are all fundamentals, the role of primary and secondary education,
useful of themselves and necessary foundations for the other basic sciences
of fluid and thermodynamics, statics, ... Not a day goes by that my
technical education isn't put to use. Anytime a number is involved, even
telling the time, I'm drawing on knowledge grounded in my early education.
Y'all also overlooked basic grammar and language, formal logic, foreign
language, art appreciation, towel flicking, ... which led to, among other
things, persuasive and other forms of writing.

In article , "J. Clarke" wrote:
Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
in later life?

Touch typing.

Ok, I admit, that was useful.

"Useful" is IMO something of an understatement. It is a never-ending source of
wonder to me to see how very few computer programmers -- who spend our
freaking *lives* at keyboards -- can touch-type.

Driver's Ed.

Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a whole
semester of that crap.

Amen to that.

One thing Dad taught me that they never even mentioned in Driver's Ed: if you
see a ball bounce out into the road, hit the brakes NOW, because there WILL be
a child behind it.

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
in later life?

Driver's Ed.

Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a whole
semester of that crap.

If my Dad had tried to teach me to drive, one of us would have been in the
hospital, the other in jail. Not that I didn't learn a lot from him, just more
by example than instruction. Besides, in my state you could get your license
two years earlier with Driver's Ed. It was also good for an insurance discount
into my 20's.


History and Government.

What did you learn about history and government that was (a) useful
and (b) true? I'm _still_ unlearning that crap.

A history teacher gave me a love of history. Maybe half my recreational reading
is history. As for government, understanding of the structure and powers of the
Federal government is useful almost every day.


Chemistry and Physics.

When have you actually used it?

It lets you call "bull****" on someone or something that claims to violate basic
principles.

Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.

Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found mathematical
proofs to be particularly useful.

I have a patent which has a formal proof as a key component.

-- Doug

Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real
value
in later life?

Driver's Ed.

Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a
whole semester of that crap.

If my Dad had tried to teach me to drive, one of us would have been
in the hospital, the other in jail. Not that I didn't learn a lot
from him, just more by example than instruction. Besides, in my
state you could get your license two years earlier with Driver's Ed.
It was also good for an insurance discount into my 20's.

I don't recall any insurance discount, yes, it let me drive two years
earlier, but that's politics and not skills. Was a waste of time.

History and Government.

What did you learn about history and government that was (a) useful
and (b) true? I'm _still_ unlearning that crap.

A history teacher gave me a love of history. Maybe half my
recreational reading is history. As for government, understanding
of
the structure and powers of the Federal government is useful almost
every day.

Lucky you. The main thing I learned from history teachers was that
history sucks.

As to understanding the structure and powers of the Federal
government, yes, that's useful, but I didn't learn anything about it
in school. I learned a bunch of feel-good bull**** though.

Chemistry and Physics.

When have you actually used it?

It lets you call "bull****" on someone or something that claims to
violate basic principles.

Calling bull**** based on high school physics and chemistry is a good
way to make a fool of yourself.

Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.

Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found
mathematical
proofs to be particularly useful.

I have a patent which has a formal proof as a key component.

A patent for _what_ and is it making money for you?

Sounds to me like you went to an unusual school. The most important
thing I got out of high school was _me_.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:

What did you personally learn in the public schools school other than
to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
life?

I learned that language was important - that while a thing said one way
might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the door to
friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I couldn't get across
to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't any better than no
idea at all. I learned that language was an essential part of problem
statement and problem solving, and that it could be variously used to
produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or cooperation.

I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
perspective twists that my native English does not, and that poetry and
precise thoughts do not always translate well from one language to another.

I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I learned that
there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is the lens
through which we see the world - and that different cultural lenses
reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and events.

I read and discussed the statements of ideals and principles of my own
culture, and somewhat of others. I learned a bit about how what might be
good manners at home might not be so elsewhere.

I learned that history was more than names and dates and places - that
it's actually a compendium of cause and effect for different groups of
people in different contexts - that it's a record of what has already
been tried and under what circumstances and with what consequences over
the long haul. I learned that there are a lot more ways to get things
wrong than there are to get them right, and that it might be really
important to not repeat some of the mistakes.

I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had come
before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap into the
world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns' and
'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to solve a
problem.

I learned that matter consisted of atoms, and that different elements
have different properties, and that those properties matter - that lead
isn't good for bridge beams, nor plutonium for eyeglass frames, and that
aluminum and copper are good conductors of heat. I learned that 'more'
isn't necessarily better, and not to throw scraps of sodium metal into
the waste crock.

I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and that
nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of energy and
the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension that must
be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite reactions.
I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad farewell to
fantasies of perpetual motion machines.

I've gone on past midnight and need to stop for sleep, but there's more
- a /lot/ more - and it's all been useful.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
than
to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
life?

I learned that language was important - that while a thing said one
way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
couldn't
get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't any
better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an essential
part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could be
variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
cooperation.

And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have learned
them anyway as part of growing up?

I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
perspective twists that my native English does not, and that poetry
and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one language
to another.

In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
taught?

I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I learned
that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
the lens through which we see the world - and that different
cultural
lenses
reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and events.

That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible American
public school is located.

I read and discussed the statements of ideals and principles of my
own
culture, and somewhat of others. I learned a bit about how what
might
be good manners at home might not be so elsewhere.

You discussed? In an American public school?

I learned that history was more than names and dates and places -
that
it's actually a compendium of cause and effect for different groups
of
people in different contexts - that it's a record of what has
already
been tried and under what circumstances and with what consequences
over the long haul. I learned that there are a lot more ways to get
things wrong than there are to get them right, and that it might be
really important to not repeat some of the mistakes.

In an American public school you learned this?

I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had come
before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap into
the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns' and
'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
solve
a problem.

Algebra in the sixth grade?

I learned that matter consisted of atoms, and that different
elements
have different properties, and that those properties matter - that
lead isn't good for bridge beams, nor plutonium for eyeglass frames,
and that aluminum and copper are good conductors of heat. I learned
that 'more' isn't necessarily better, and not to throw scraps of
sodium metal into
the waste crock.

Always useful, not throwing sodium into the waste crock. In what
public school in the US did you learn strength of materials?

I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and that
nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of energy
and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
that must
be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
reactions.
I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
farewell
to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.

And how have you used that knowledge since?

I've gone on past midnight and need to stop for sleep, but there's
more - a /lot/ more - and it's all been useful.

It sounds to me like you have had a far, far different education from
most Americans.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:

What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
than
to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
life?

Troll.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
than
to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
life?

Troll.

They teach trolling in the public schools now?

That explains much.

Seriously, I fully understand kids going postal.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Douglas Johnson wrote in
:


Touch typing.

Already doing it in my own way before I took the class.

Driver's Ed.

Useless. We studied the "Rules of the Road" book by writing out the
questions and answers verbatum, and took the drivers test to get our
permit.

Drafting.

Optional, but very very useful class. I think this one had one of the
largest lasting effects on me, as it gave me a way to draw out my ideas.
I'm no artist, but via drafting I can get the point across.

History and Government.

We studied the various wars, the founding of the US, and the Amendments
to the Constitution. In 7th grade I had an amazing history teacher who
used motivations more than events. Learned more from him than I did in
any future history class.

Wood shop.

Optional, but extremely useful. (Naturally, I'd say that posting this
message on a _Woodworking_ newsgroup.)

Chemistry and Physics.

I had a touch of Chemistry, and no Physics.

After college, I got a 27' chemistry set, also known as a swimming pool.
Glad I had Chemistry in college.

Geometry

I use this off and on as a part of woodworking. The whole proofs part,
though, not so useful in daily life.

Trig, and Intro to Calculus.

Scheduled at the wrong time for me to take. Wish I had trig, though, as
it would have allowed me to take the 11:00 Calculus classes in college
rather than the &:$% ones (oops... Did I hold the shift key down too
long?).

(If you'd like to include those in "sums", that's fine.) -- Doug

Funny, it seems the optional classes were the most useful ones.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
in later life?

Driver's Ed.
Really worthless. Learned more from my Dad in an hour than in a whole
semester of that crap.

If my Dad had tried to teach me to drive, one of us would have been in the
hospital, the other in jail. Not that I didn't learn a lot from him, just more
by example than instruction. Besides, in my state you could get your license
two years earlier with Driver's Ed. It was also good for an insurance discount
into my 20's.


History and Government.
What did you learn about history and government that was (a) useful
and (b) true? I'm _still_ unlearning that crap.

A history teacher gave me a love of history. Maybe half my recreational reading
is history. As for government, understanding of the structure and powers of the
Federal government is useful almost every day.


Chemistry and Physics.
When have you actually used it?

It lets you call "bull****" on someone or something that claims to violate basic
principles.

Geometry, Trig, and Intro to Calculus.
Lucky you with the intro to calculus. I've never found mathematical
proofs to be particularly useful.

I have a patent which has a formal proof as a key component.

-- Doug
This post explains a lot. Chemistry and Physics are the basis for life
in the 21st century. If you don't have a basic understanding of
chemistry you will accept the fact that you can capture all of the CO2
from burning coal. That computer that you are using is based on
physics and math, from it basic operation to the user interface.

As for history, if you don't understand the past you will keep repeating
it with the same results. A good example is the policies of the
thirties. They failed and it took a world war to fix the economy, yet to
day we are getting ready to retry those policies.

If you don't understand government you will accept Biden statement that
the White House should not be involved in the Senate. The Constitution
defines the Vice President's responsibilities as being the Speaker of
the Senate with no voting responsibilities except to break tie votes

It frustrates me to read articles about the lack of education in America
today. Education has been a basic part of the government since 1780.
Every child is required to go to school yet the parents do not encourage
the children to learn. Don't complain about be second class citizens if
you don't make most of the schools and library's that are everywhere in
the United States

J. Clarke wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
than
to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
life?
I learned that language was important - that while a thing said one
way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
couldn't
get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't any
better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an essential
part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could be
variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
cooperation.

And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have learned
them anyway as part of growing up?

A lot of this was put into words for me by teachers before I'd have
worked it out for myself or gotten it from peers.

I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
perspective twists that my native English does not, and that poetry
and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one language
to another.

In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
taught?

Not in the US, although the school program was modeled after New York
State's curriculum. Don't kids in at least some NY and NJ public schools
have the opportunity to learn other languages? I'd be astonished if kids
in south FL, TX, AZ, and NM don't have the opportunity to take Spanish.
The teacher for both languages was Lebanese (and the only non-American
teacher in the school).

I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I learned
that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
the lens through which we see the world - and that different
cultural
lenses
reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and events.

That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible American
public school is located.

The US component of that particular experience was at Richwoods
Community High School in Peoria, IL. It's a good public school with good
teachers and probably had better than average course offerings. I took a
really interesting Projective Geometry and a (really difficult for me)
Qualitative Analysis chemistry course there. Hmm - as I recall, they
also offered French, German, and Spanish to fill in on your earlier
question on languages in public schools.

I read and discussed the statements of ideals and principles of my
own
culture, and somewhat of others. I learned a bit about how what
might
be good manners at home might not be so elsewhere.

You discussed? In an American public school?

You bet.

I learned that history was more than names and dates and places -
that
it's actually a compendium of cause and effect for different groups
of
people in different contexts - that it's a record of what has
already
been tried and under what circumstances and with what consequences
over the long haul. I learned that there are a lot more ways to get
things wrong than there are to get them right, and that it might be
really important to not repeat some of the mistakes.

In an American public school you learned this?

An exceptional history teacher, no? IMO, we could use more like him, and
I wish my kids could've taken /any/ course from him.

I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had come
before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap into
the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns' and
'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
solve
a problem.

Algebra in the sixth grade?

I think so - but sixth grade might've been Plane Geometry with Algebra I
in seventh. It's been a long time.

I learned that matter consisted of atoms, and that different
elements
have different properties, and that those properties matter - that
lead isn't good for bridge beams, nor plutonium for eyeglass frames,
and that aluminum and copper are good conductors of heat. I learned
that 'more' isn't necessarily better, and not to throw scraps of
sodium metal into
the waste crock.

Always useful, not throwing sodium into the waste crock. In what
public school in the US did you learn strength of materials?

Didn't - at least not as such, but I do remember talking about "groups"
in the periodic table and discussions about general properties of
elements. I think I'd have enjoyed more specific coursework, but at that
point I probably didn't have enough math to handle it.

I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and that
nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of energy
and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
that must
be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
reactions.
I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
farewell
to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.

And how have you used that knowledge since?

Wow. It was the foundation for almost all that I learned later - and
gave me the confidence to tackle all kinds of problems about which I
started out knowing far too little. That's exactly what's been happening
with the solar stuff recently - and even randite Tim might get a kick
out of my weird engine that runs (limps actually, but it /will/ run) on
sunshine to do direct conversion of radiant energy to mechanical.

I've gone on past midnight and need to stop for sleep, but there's
more - a /lot/ more - and it's all been useful.

It sounds to me like you have had a far, far different education from
most Americans.

I don't know - I think I was just lucky enough to have had a succession
of really good, caring teachers who somehow managed to convince me that
there were real and important connections between what they were
teaching and real life. When the educational process breaks, it's seemed
to me that the lack of that connection has been the fault line.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

In article
"J. Clarke" writes:
Morris Dovey wrote:

I learned that language was important - that while a thing said one
way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
couldn't
get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't any
better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an essential
part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could be
variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
cooperation.

And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have learned
them anyway as part of growing up?

I got a lot of the components of that from teachers, especially the
"how to" part. Depending on context, it goes under various names
-- persuasive writing, debate, etc.


I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
perspective twists that my native English does not, and that poetry
and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one language
to another.

In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
taught?

Dude, French is probably the most taught non-dead foreign language
in US schools. Where *isn't* it taught? I had a year of that in
5th grade, but didn't stick with it. I don't recall if I ever had
Arabic available. But it isn't something that would have interested
me at that time.


I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I learned
that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
the lens through which we see the world - and that different
cultural
lenses
reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and events.

That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible American
public school is located.

It is clear that your schools sucked (assuming that you weren't
just a complete slacker).

My public schools (1967-1980) sound a lot like Morris'.

I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had come
before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap into
the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns' and
'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
solve
a problem.

Algebra in the sixth grade?

I had the intro, along with geometry by other names in 5th grade.
(Cranston-Calvert School, Newport, RI.)


I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and that
nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of energy
and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
that must
be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
reactions.
I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
farewell
to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.

And how have you used that knowledge since?

Your original question was in the form, "What did you learn that
you found useful later?"

It's pretty clear that you really meant, "What did you learn that
I also had available to me and that *I* currently consider to be
useful."


BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.

--
Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
That will alter your social standing

On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 10:29:14 -0600, Morris Dovey wrote:

It sounds to me like you have had a far, far different education from
most Americans.

I don't know - I think I was just lucky enough to have had a succession
of really good, caring teachers who somehow managed to convince me that
there were real and important connections between what they were
teaching and real life. When the educational process breaks, it's seemed
to me that the lack of that connection has been the fault line.

Sounds a lot like the teachers in my day, Morris. Oh, there were some
bad ones, but most of mine were dedicated to teaching me things which I
greatly resisted. My only complaint was that there were no classes for
children with high (or low) intelligence, although the good teachers did
pretty well at reaching both.

And yes, we discussed things as well. Especially in history and social
studies classes, but also in English classes.



--
It's turtles, all the way down

J. Clarke wrote:
Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real value
in later life?
[snip]

It taught me how to characterize a problem and to employ logical thought
processes in formulating a solution.
mahalo,
jo4hn

J. Clarke wrote:
Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

The schools are a miserable experience that produce mediocre
results. The argument that they are better than nothing doesn't
wash. What did you personally learn in the public schools school
other than to read and write and do sums that was of any real
value
in later life?
[snip]
Sounds to me like you went to an unusual school. The most important
thing I got out of high school was _me_.

You are right. School for you was of no real value.
j4

"Drew Lawson" wrote in message ...
In article
"J. Clarke" writes:
Morris Dovey wrote:

SNIP

BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.

--
Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
That will alter your social standing

Must be nice to be so young.

My grade school had no computers - they had not been invented yet.

I saw my first computer in my last year of high school - you could walk inside it.

The first computer I played with was a 360-50 - only needed half a room for it.

Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.

I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.

P D Q

In article
"PDQ" writes:

"Drew Lawson" wrote in message ...
In article
"J. Clarke" writes:
Morris Dovey wrote:

SNIP

BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.

--
Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
That will alter your social standing

Must be nice to be so young.

My grade school had no computers - they had not been invented yet.

I saw my first computer in my last year of high school - you could walk inside it.

The first computer I played with was a 360-50 - only needed half a room for it.

Well, that first computer (a HP 2000) I used was also in my senior
year, and I never set eyes on it. It was somewhere across the
county, being shared by all the high schools. I hate to think what
the connection was, probably 300 baud. But we did have CRT terminals
and keyboards. So it's modern compared to a lot of stories I hear.

Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.

I occasionally reflect on the fact that my 6 year-old cell phone
has more computing power than was used for the Apollo program. Not
entirely sure that says good things about what we do with our current
potential, but that's a long discussion for some other day.

I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.

P D Q


--
Drew Lawson | I'd like to find your inner child
| and kick its little ass

"Drew Lawson" wrote in message ...
In article
"PDQ" writes:

"Drew Lawson" wrote in message ...
In article
"J. Clarke" writes:
Morris Dovey wrote:

SNIP

BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.

--
Drew Lawson For it's not the fall, but landing,
That will alter your social standing

Must be nice to be so young.

My grade school had no computers - they had not been invented yet.

I saw my first computer in my last year of high school - you could walk inside it.

The first computer I played with was a 360-50 - only needed half a room for it.

Well, that first computer (a HP 2000) I used was also in my senior
year, and I never set eyes on it. It was somewhere across the
county, being shared by all the high schools. I hate to think what
the connection was, probably 300 baud. But we did have CRT terminals
and keyboards. So it's modern compared to a lot of stories I hear.


I don't remember the numbers on the computer but it was a burroughs and we had to be careful not to trip over the wires. It was the only "room" in the building that was air conditioned.

I remember 300 baud as "time out for coffee". Once got into a real setto with a know-it-all at work when he said 1600 was blazingly fast while I maintained all it did was allow one to "read the periods". In those days we had a 6400 line to a branch office in Montreal - didn't have to read the periods there.

Now I have a PC with more power than the 50 and it sits on my desk.

I occasionally reflect on the fact that my 6 year-old cell phone
has more computing power than was used for the Apollo program. Not
entirely sure that says good things about what we do with our current
potential, but that's a long discussion for some other day.

I still need a bigger and faster playtoy.

P D Q


--
Drew Lawson | I'd like to find your inner child
| and kick its little ass

Morris Dovey wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

What did you personally learn in the public schools school other
than
to read and write and do sums that was of any real value in later
life?
I learned that language was important - that while a thing said
one
way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
couldn't
get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't
any
better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an
essential
part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could
be
variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
cooperation.

And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have
learned them anyway as part of growing up?

A lot of this was put into words for me by teachers before I'd have
worked it out for myself or gotten it from peers.

I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
perspective twists that my native English does not, and that
poetry
and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one
language
to another.

In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
taught?

Not in the US, although the school program was modeled after New
York
State's curriculum. Don't kids in at least some NY and NJ public
schools have the opportunity to learn other languages? I'd be
astonished if kids in south FL, TX, AZ, and NM don't have the
opportunity to take Spanish. The teacher for both languages was
Lebanese (and the only non-American teacher in the school).

The public schools in Florida, Virginia, Louisiana, and California, at
least when I was there, offered _no_ languages until high school. The
Louisiana Catholic parochial schools taught French from first grade
on, but no Spanish. I do wonder sometimes how my life might have been
different if I had been able to stay in the Catholic schools--note
that I am not Catholic.

In high school the Spanish teachers were not native speakers and were
marginally competent, which, combined with the starting in high
school, meant that most of the students learned "Queiro ir al cuarto
de bano" (should be a tilde on that n") and that was the end of it.

New York and New Jersey might be better. They would have had to work
at it to be much worse.

I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I
learned
that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
the lens through which we see the world - and that different
cultural
lenses
reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and
events.

That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible
American
public school is located.

The US component of that particular experience was at Richwoods
Community High School in Peoria, IL. It's a good public school with
good teachers and probably had better than average course offerings.
I took a really interesting Projective Geometry and a (really
difficult for me) Qualitative Analysis chemistry course there. Hmm -
as I recall, they also offered French, German, and Spanish to fill
in
on your earlier question on languages in public schools.

OK, that is a very, very unusual public school.

I read and discussed the statements of ideals and principles of my
own
culture, and somewhat of others. I learned a bit about how what
might
be good manners at home might not be so elsewhere.

You discussed? In an American public school?

You bet.

We sat quietly and regurgitated whatever the teacher told us, no
matter how stupid it might have been.

I learned that history was more than names and dates and places -
that
it's actually a compendium of cause and effect for different
groups
of
people in different contexts - that it's a record of what has
already
been tried and under what circumstances and with what consequences
over the long haul. I learned that there are a lot more ways to
get
things wrong than there are to get them right, and that it might
be
really important to not repeat some of the mistakes.

In an American public school you learned this?

An exceptional history teacher, no? IMO, we could use more like him,
and I wish my kids could've taken /any/ course from him.

Well, you begin to see the problem. I don't deny that there must be
_some_ decent public schools out there, but I never attended any. The
two good teachers in the ones I attended were constantly battling the
system.

I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had
come
before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap
into
the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns'
and
'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
solve
a problem.

Algebra in the sixth grade?

I think so - but sixth grade might've been Plane Geometry with
Algebra I in seventh. It's been a long time.

Geez, we got geometry in the 9th.

I learned that matter consisted of atoms, and that different
elements
have different properties, and that those properties matter - that
lead isn't good for bridge beams, nor plutonium for eyeglass
frames,
and that aluminum and copper are good conductors of heat. I
learned
that 'more' isn't necessarily better, and not to throw scraps of
sodium metal into
the waste crock.

Always useful, not throwing sodium into the waste crock. In what
public school in the US did you learn strength of materials?

Didn't - at least not as such, but I do remember talking about
"groups" in the periodic table and discussions about general
properties of elements. I think I'd have enjoyed more specific
coursework, but at that point I probably didn't have enough math to
handle it.

Again quite different. The teacher might have said something about
groups but if she did it was one of those
"memorized-regurgitate-forget" deals. Certainly never explained why
anybody should care about those groups.

I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and
that
nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of
energy
and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
that must
be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
reactions.
I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
farewell
to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.

And how have you used that knowledge since?

Wow. It was the foundation for almost all that I learned later - and
gave me the confidence to tackle all kinds of problems about which I
started out knowing far too little. That's exactly what's been
happening with the solar stuff recently - and even randite Tim might
get a kick out of my weird engine that runs (limps actually, but it
/will/ run) on sunshine to do direct conversion of radiant energy to
mechanical.

Good that you managed to hit on a field in which you could apply
_something_. Most people need to know about potics like they need a
hole in the head.

I've gone on past midnight and need to stop for sleep, but there's
more - a /lot/ more - and it's all been useful.

It sounds to me like you have had a far, far different education
from
most Americans.

I don't know - I think I was just lucky enough to have had a
succession of really good, caring teachers who somehow managed to
convince me that there were real and important connections between
what they were teaching and real life.

Which is far, far different from what most of us got.

When the educational process
breaks, it's seemed to me that the lack of that connection has been
the fault line.

Most of the teachers I encountered were career teachers who had never
actually done anything else and housewife wannabees killing time until
they found a victim. The superstars were two ex military who served
in WWII, one as a Marine DI and the other as an AAC instructor pilot.
They both taught you like your life depended on it and knew why you
needed to know what they were teaching. The rest just droned on
regurgitating the book, or some other book, not even recognizing when
they told a whopper.



--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
"J. Clarke" writes:
Morris Dovey wrote:

I learned that language was important - that while a thing said
one
way might get me a fat lip, if said another way it might open the
door to friendship. I learned that a really good idea that I
couldn't
get across to someone else when it seemed important to me wasn't
any
better than no idea at all. I learned that language was an
essential
part of problem statement and problem solving, and that it could
be
variously used to produce tears, laughter, sympathy, animosity, or
cooperation.

And you learned these things from teachers? Or would you have
learned them anyway as part of growing up?

I got a lot of the components of that from teachers, especially the
"how to" part. Depending on context, it goes under various names
-- persuasive writing, debate, etc.

Where was this? Debate? Persuasive writing? Never had any of that
kind of stuff.

I learned that French and Arabic both have nuances and built-in
perspective twists that my native English does not, and that
poetry
and precise thoughts do not always translate well from one
language
to another.

In what public school in the United States are Arabic and French
taught?

Dude, French is probably the most taught non-dead foreign language
in US schools. Where *isn't* it taught?

So where is it taught alongside Arabic in the public schools? And if
French is so widely taught in the US public schools howcum the only
school I ever attended in four states that offered it was a Catholic
school?

I had a year of that in
5th grade, but didn't stick with it. I don't recall if I ever had
Arabic available. But it isn't something that would have interested
me at that time.


I learned that language is closely coupled to culture and I
learned
that there are cultures different from my own, and that culture is
the lens through which we see the world - and that different
cultural
lenses
reveal different realities when viewing the same objects and
events.

That's nice, but again I want to know where this incredible
American
public school is located.

It is clear that your schools sucked (assuming that you weren't
just a complete slacker).

Well, yes, they did, and I have seen no reason to believe that they
were atypical.

My public schools (1967-1980) sound a lot like Morris'.

Where was this?

I learned in sixth grade algebra class that everything that had
come
before was neander and that learning algebra amounted to a leap
into
the world of power tools for the brain. I learned about 'knowns'
and
'unknowns', and how to determine if/when I had enough knowns to
solve
a problem.

Algebra in the sixth grade?

I had the intro, along with geometry by other names in 5th grade.
(Cranston-Calvert School, Newport, RI.)

Perhaps Rhode Island is doing a good job.

I learned that transparent materials have angles of refraction and
critical angles, and I learned that light goes really fast and
that
nothing in our ken goes faster. I learned of the happiness of
energy
and the sadness of entropy, and that time is, indeed, a dimension
that must
be accounted for in all actions and their equal and opposite
reactions.
I was introduced to the laws of thermodynamics and bid a sad
farewell
to fantasies of perpetual motion machines.

And how have you used that knowledge since?

Your original question was in the form, "What did you learn that
you found useful later?"

It's pretty clear that you really meant, "What did you learn that
I also had available to me and that *I* currently consider to be
useful."


BTW, my first computer programming was in a US public school. I'm
still finding that useful, as today's paycheck reminds me.

One presumes that that has changed since I was in school--at the time
"computer" was something that cost millions of dollars and would have
filled the gym handily.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)