"Larry C in Auburn, WA" wrote in message news:97GQb.145656$na.236306@attbi_s04...
FWIW, they ranked the Marples Blue Chip as coming in 16th out of the 17
chisels tested, IOW almost dead last. Craftsman came in 9th. The chisels
that tested best for toughness were White Steel ($32 for a 1/2" chisel)
first, then Blue Steel ($38 for a 1/2" chisel), and in third was Iyori ($156
for a set of 4 chisels).

Double FWIW, the Craftsman rated better for toughness than Japan Woodworker
(10th), Garrett Wade (11th), Robert Sorby Gilt-Edge (12th), Lee Valley
(13th), Robert Sorby Octagonal (14th), Stanley 5002 (15th), Marples Blue
Chip (16th), and Pfeil (17th).

Interesting that Pfeil would come in last. I have a set, they take an
edge and hold up just fine. Anyone else used these and think they're
the worst?

Scott Wilson

Charlie could not be more correct in his description of Jim Wilson & Jim's
work. I was able to sneak an order in earlier this year, and the chisels
Jim made for me are outstanding. Jim was also a pleasure to work with in
his handling of my order and the delays due to back orders and some other
glitches. The chisels Jim makes are well worth the money IMO.

Mike Dembroge


"charlie b" wrote in message
...
Bay Area Dave wrote:

I'd send it to you, but I've gotten a refund on it already.

Nice try, Jim!

dave


In the event that anyone's unaware of who Jim Wilson is and
why Dave missed a great opportunity - Jim made the mortising
chisels Steve Knight carried. He's a tool maker and knows
his stuff. I recall that he's gotten back into making his
mortising chisels again after a hiatus. Can't find the new
url but here's his old one. Perhaps he'll provide his new
url

www.paragoncode.com/toolmaking/

I'm certain that when you got your chisel back it'd be
sharper than you could make it and the back would be
dead flat.

As for his mortising chisels - well you can try one out
when the lock miter joints are done

charlie b

I've the chisels you mention, but have not tried them. Japanese are
like any other tool when it comes to value. You usually get what you
pay for. I wouldn't doubt that the chisels offered by Grizzly are
okay, but they were probably made by lesser craftsmen. It takes an
apprentice years to learn just how to work the metals so that the
chisel has all the right working qualities. You might want to take a
look at the Mastumura chisels offered by JapanWoodworker.com. You'll
get a handcrafted Japanese chisel made by a bonafide master
chiselmaker. They're a great value. Then you can drool over the other
chisels like those made by Tasai. When you get to that level you're
not just buying a tool you're buying a work of art.

Layne
ps, usual disclaimers apply.

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:01:13 GMT, "Wm Gardner"
wrote:

While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried that
set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they look
and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
anyone out there taken the chance?

Thanks in advance,
Bill

Not necessarily unless you include marketing & hype as part of what you pay
for. This is a really long thread, but in one of my answers I mentioned a
FWW chisel test from issue #139 Dec/99. They measured hardness and
toughness of 17 chisels. A couple of comparisons that might be interesting:

The most expensive chisels ("you get what you pay for", right?) were ones
from Barr Specialty Tools at about $75 per chisel. These had a Rockwell
hardness of 61C and ranked 5th in toughness. Pretty disappointing for the
most expensive tool tested. However, the article also pointed out the feel
of it is a "delight to hold and behold".

A $20 chisel from Hirsch was even harder (59C) and ranked higher at 4th in
toughness. So for $55 less per chisel you could get a harder and tougher
chisel.

The least expensive chisel was from Sears at $6/chisel and ranked 9th in
toughness with a hardness of 60C which wasn't too bad compared to the
others.

In the test the top three spots went to Japanese chisels, but then down
below the cheap Craftsman came another Japanese chisel so it wasn't a give
that a Japanese chisel would outperform all others. I guess the bottom line
is that you can't be sure the Grizzly chisel is good just because it's a
Japanese chisel. OTOH, you can't be sure that it isn't good just because it
costs less than expected.

I should point out that the article also came to the conclusion that none of
the 17 chisels tested were "junk". They also came to the conclusion that
it's probably more important how the chisel feels in your hand than it's
toughness because the quality of the metal really just dictates how often
you have to sharpen it. As the FWW article says "What's the point of buying
a chisel made of super-tough steel if it feels lousy in your hand?" Seems
like good advice.

--
Larry C in Auburn, WA



Layne wrote in message ...
I've the chisels you mention, but have not tried them. Japanese are
like any other tool when it comes to value. You usually get what you
pay for. I wouldn't doubt that the chisels offered by Grizzly are
okay, but they were probably made by lesser craftsmen. It takes an
apprentice years to learn just how to work the metals so that the
chisel has all the right working qualities. You might want to take a
look at the Mastumura chisels offered by JapanWoodworker.com. You'll
get a handcrafted Japanese chisel made by a bonafide master
chiselmaker. They're a great value. Then you can drool over the other
chisels like those made by Tasai. When you get to that level you're
not just buying a tool you're buying a work of art.

Layne
ps, usual disclaimers apply.

Larry C in Auburn, WA wrote...

The most expensive chisels ("you get what you pay for", right?) were ones
from Barr Specialty Tools at about $75 per chisel. These had a Rockwell
hardness of 61C and ranked 5th in toughness. Pretty disappointing for the
most expensive tool tested. However, the article also pointed out the feel
of it is a "delight to hold and behold".

A $20 chisel from Hirsch was even harder (59C) and ranked higher at 4th in
toughness. So for $55 less per chisel you could get a harder and tougher
chisel.

The least expensive chisel was from Sears at $6/chisel and ranked 9th in
toughness with a hardness of 60C which wasn't too bad compared to the
others.

I'm a tad confused by your numbers. A material which measures 61 on the
Rockwell "C" scale is harder than one that measures HRC59. In steels,
hardness and toughness tend to work against each other (though good
compromises can be achieved), so it makes sense that a HRC61 blade might
not be as tough as a HRC59 blade.

I should point out that the article also came to the conclusion that none of
the 17 chisels tested were "junk". They also came to the conclusion that
it's probably more important how the chisel feels in your hand than it's
toughness because the quality of the metal really just dictates how often
you have to sharpen it. As the FWW article says "What's the point of buying
a chisel made of super-tough steel if it feels lousy in your hand?" Seems
like good advice.

Yes, it does. Did they by any chance detail the metrics they used to rank
the chisels? From your description above, it sounds like they ranked
toughness pretty highly, but that seems contrary to this last bit of
advice.

Also, did they attempt to identify the types of steel used in the tested
chisels?

Thanks,

Jim

Dang, I hate it when that happens. Yeah, I should have remembered the way
the Rockwell hardness test goes. I was relying on my old memory... The
numbers were all generally close though.

They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty
straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the RC
number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this is
where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17. They ran the chisels through
a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1
micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data they
rated the toughness of the edge.

No mention of the chisel composition.

As I mentioned in another post, this review is now 4 years old and they only
tested 17 chisels out of hundreds (thousands?) available so it all has to be
taken with a grain of salt. I couldn't figure out any hard-and-fast rules
based on brand (e.g. Sears was tougher than many others), country of origin
(e.g. not all Japanese chisels rated high), or cost (e.g. several lower cost
chisels beat out higher cost chisels). Seemed to be something of a crap
shoot to find the "right" chisel.

--
Larry C in Auburn, WA

"Jim Wilson" pointed out Larry's confusion plus
more...

"Larry C in Auburn, WA" wrote in message news:bN%Rb.133018$Rc4.1037752@attbi_s54...

They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty
straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the RC
number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this is
where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17. They ran the chisels through
a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1
micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data they
rated the toughness of the edge.

I remember reading this article and wondering exactly what it hoped
to "prove". To me it seemed to be close to worthless unless you
consider a chisel to be an implement of destruction (or you just use
them to open paint cans or chop through rusty nails).

I'll leave it to the metallurgists to debate this sort of thing,
but isn't the true worth of a chisel found in the fact that it can
hold a decent edge but still be sharpened in a reasonable time?
(Isn't it a compromise?) Doesn't this mean that the "best" chisel in
that test would have a medium/high Rockwell, but a high "toughness"
rating?


Chuck Vance

Larry C in Auburn, WA wrote...

They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty
straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the RC
number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this is
where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17.

Wow. By that measure, a CSO (chisel-shaped-object) made of mild steel
would have rated highly, as it is extremely tough, although not at all
hard, being typically HRC35 or below. Of course, the edge would fail by
bending despite the toughness, so I am being a little facetious.

They ran the chisels through
a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1
micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data they
rated the toughness of the edge.

Wow, again. Those are some mighty big microns! (G) They're even bigger
than tenths! Most microns, properly "micrometers," are about 0.00003937";
25,400 of 'em fit in an inch.

Seemed to be something of a crap shoot to find the "right" chisel.

IME, that's exactly how it is "in real life." Thanks for the information
on the article, Larry. I haven't seen it and wondered how they would
compare the tools quantitatively. Please forgive me for picking on it a
little bit. I don't mean to be giving you a hard time at all.

Cheers!

Jim

Jim Wilson wrote...

By that measure, a CSO (chisel-shaped-object) made of mild steel
would have rated highly

A good quality screwdriver would have rated even better!

Jim

I don't mind you questioning what I wrote, getting accurate info is more
important. Besides, I question people all the time so it's about time I get
questioned back. g

I don't think I said what I wanted to say very clearly. Let me try again.
They didn't come up with an overall rating of the chisels. What they did
was measure two things. Hardness and toughness. Hardness is an objective
measurement so they just provided the RC number. Toughness is more
subjective so after testing the tools they measured the roughness of the
edge and then provided a ranking of the chisels by roughness (i.e. their
definition of toughness). It was left to the reader to balance the two
measurements (actual harness measurement and the roughness ranking). They
made 9,500 (9 thousand 5 hundred, not 9 point 5) measurements across a 1/2"
chisel so I think that works out to about 1.3 microns. I earlier said it
was 9,500 measurements across a 1" chisel, but it was actually across a 1/2"
chisel.

Most of the chisels were close in hardness so that wasn't a determining
factor in my opinion. Ignoring the ergonomics of the various brands for a
minute leaves us with these two measurements to evaluate. Given a
particular hardness number (over 1/2 the chisels had an RC number between 59
and 61) then the FWW hardness factor would seem to be the determining
measurement. I understand your point that the two factors (hardness &
toughness) fight against each other. A kitchen spatula would rank very high
on the FWW toughness scale, but still couldn't cut anything, OTOH a ceramic
chisel might be hard but wouldn't be very tough. This is why they gave both
numbers. However, since the chisels scored roughly in the same hardness
band we're talking about similar materials.

As a point of interest (maybe?), the softest chisel only ranked 8th for
toughness rather than 1st as might be expected and the hardest chisel scored
second for toughness rather than last.

Now factor in cost, ease of sharpening and I give up, I'm just going to stic
k to the coolest looking chisels... At least THAT I can figure out.
--
Larry C in Auburn, WA

"Jim Wilson" wrote in message
k.net...
Larry C in Auburn, WA wrote...

They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty
straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the
RC
number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this
is
where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17.

Wow. By that measure, a CSO (chisel-shaped-object) made of mild steel
would have rated highly, as it is extremely tough, although not at all
hard, being typically HRC35 or below. Of course, the edge would fail by
bending despite the toughness, so I am being a little facetious.

They ran the chisels through
a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1
micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data
they
rated the toughness of the edge.

Wow, again. Those are some mighty big microns! (G) They're even bigger
than tenths! Most microns, properly "micrometers," are about 0.00003937";
25,400 of 'em fit in an inch.

Seemed to be something of a crap shoot to find the "right" chisel.

IME, that's exactly how it is "in real life." Thanks for the information
on the article, Larry. I haven't seen it and wondered how they would
compare the tools quantitatively. Please forgive me for picking on it a
little bit. I don't mean to be giving you a hard time at all.

Cheers!

Jim

Why not try the chisels, and if you don't like them send them back?
Remember to use your American Express if you do this... DAMHIKT

I have used my sets of Craftsman chisels for years now. The oldest
set is over 20 years old! I have three sets: One I take to the job
in a nylon rolling case that lives in my truck. These are pretty
sharp, but are also my "beaters". I hammer, pry, dig and chop with
this set. If I hit an embedded nail or hard knot (like oak), I swear
a lot when I get a nick, but I don't cry.

My second set is treated better, and it goes to the job to install new
door locks, cabinet pieces, and to do fitting of different hardware
and lockets since I do a lot of remodeling. I do not abuse these, and
they stay pretty sharp for a decent amount of time, and are really
easy to put a fine edge on even in the field.

Last set I just got at a Christmas sale, and bought the set of when
they had the 50% off sale with an additional 10% off if purchased
before 11:00am. The set of 5 cost me something like $13.

No, they are not the same as some of really nice, expensive chisels
that I have that stay in the house, in the closet, that I am afraid I
might accidentally drop. In fact, I have found that I don't use my
expensive chisels much at all, since they are out of sight and out of
mind.

Find the chisels you like regardless of where they are made by trying
them out, and sending them back if you don't like them. Inexpensive
doesn't mean bad. My Sears chisels are great.

And as pointed out, they don't have a lot of advertising, promotion,
or laurels to rest on at Grizzly as far as their *chisels* go so that
may account for the lesser price.

Remember at Grizzly or any other big discounter/bulk seller/volume
retailer,
they don't care about the product as much as they do moving it out.
To them, the only one that recognizes "Japanese chisels" is of
significance is their ad writers. To the rest of the company, no
matter their worth to you, they are just products moving through the
system.

Robert

Robert Witte writes:

Remember at Grizzly or any other big discounter/bulk seller/volume
retailer,
they don't care about the product as much as they do moving it out.
To them, the only one that recognizes "Japanese chisels" is of
significance is their ad writers. To the rest of the company, no
matter their worth to you, they are just products moving through the
system.

While that's true in general, the owner of Grizzly is a woodworker--check out
the guitars he builds. They're shown in every catalog. Actually, he started,
IIRC, as a metalworker, and has sort of segued into woodworking as that part of
his business has outgrown all else, by far.

His guitar-building makes one think he must at least care a bit about the
quality of his tools.

Charlie Self
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is
sure."
Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Charlie Self wrote:

His guitar-building makes one think he must at least care a bit about the
quality of his tools.

Yeah man... I sure wish I could play with one of those bee-yootiful guitars
of his. That guy has some serious skill.

Well, serious skill at making them look good. I don't know whether they're
good players or not. One would sure hope so.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

While I agree with you in principle, budgets do eventually come into
play also. For the chisels you mentioned, the 1.5" (alone) is 1/2 the
price of the entire Grizzly set. Frankly this is more than I intended to
spend on chisels.

Don't misunderstand, I am not questioning the quality/price/value of the
higher end Japanese chisels, I was just hoping to get something of
reasonable quality for an affordable price. If these chisels are of low
quality, I will likely purchase the Freud set instead. Though I would
like Japanese chisels, I do not want a poor quality tool just because it
is Japanese.

Thanks for the advice (domo arigato),
Bill

--

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
-Theodore Roosevelt


Layne wrote in message
...
I've the chisels you mention, but have not tried them. Japanese are
like any other tool when it comes to value. You usually get what you
pay for. I wouldn't doubt that the chisels offered by Grizzly are
okay, but they were probably made by lesser craftsmen. It takes an
apprentice years to learn just how to work the metals so that the
chisel has all the right working qualities. You might want to take a
look at the Mastumura chisels offered by JapanWoodworker.com. You'll
get a handcrafted Japanese chisel made by a bonafide master
chiselmaker. They're a great value. Then you can drool over the other
chisels like those made by Tasai. When you get to that level you're
not just buying a tool you're buying a work of art.

Layne
ps, usual disclaimers apply.

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:01:13 GMT, "Wm Gardner"
wrote:

While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried
that
set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they look
and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
anyone out there taken the chance?

Thanks in advance,
Bill

I got a cheap Japanese chisel (the Japan Woodworker brand) and I find
that the edge chips out if I look at it the wrong way. It got
frustrating enough that I relegated it to scraping paint and got
something else to replace it. Hard to say if the Grizzly ones are
good or not, but if they're really cheap I'd be nervous. (Unless you
like sharpening your chisels all the time.)

"Wm Gardner" writes:

While I agree with you in principle, budgets do eventually come into
play also. For the chisels you mentioned, the 1.5" (alone) is 1/2 the
price of the entire Grizzly set. Frankly this is more than I intended to
spend on chisels.

Don't misunderstand, I am not questioning the quality/price/value of the
higher end Japanese chisels, I was just hoping to get something of
reasonable quality for an affordable price. If these chisels are of low
quality, I will likely purchase the Freud set instead. Though I would
like Japanese chisels, I do not want a poor quality tool just because it
is Japanese.

Thanks for the advice (domo arigato),
Bill

--

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
-Theodore Roosevelt


Layne wrote in message
.. .
I've the chisels you mention, but have not tried them. Japanese are
like any other tool when it comes to value. You usually get what you
pay for. I wouldn't doubt that the chisels offered by Grizzly are
okay, but they were probably made by lesser craftsmen. It takes an
apprentice years to learn just how to work the metals so that the
chisel has all the right working qualities. You might want to take a
look at the Mastumura chisels offered by JapanWoodworker.com. You'll
get a handcrafted Japanese chisel made by a bonafide master
chiselmaker. They're a great value. Then you can drool over the other
chisels like those made by Tasai. When you get to that level you're
not just buying a tool you're buying a work of art.

Layne
ps, usual disclaimers apply.

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:01:13 GMT, "Wm Gardner"
wrote:

While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried
that
set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they look
and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
anyone out there taken the chance?

Thanks in advance,
Bill

I know of the chisels you're talking about. Japanese tools are
inherently more expensive (shipping, duties, taxes, etc.). Thus, when
you do buy a "cheap" Japanese tool -- or even English tool -- you are
paying more for it.

The thing with the Japan Woodworker brand is you don't really know who
the maker is. It could be an apprentice or some factory shlep. At
least with the higher end tools that may cost only slightly more...and
sometimes a lot more...you know the individual maker spent years
learning their craft to make the best possible tool for you.

If I'm not mistaken Mastumura, who's chisels aren't exorbitantly
priced, is considered a national "living treasure" by the government
of Japan.

Layne

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 02:09:00 GMT, (Adrian Mariano)
wrote:

I got a cheap Japanese chisel (the Japan Woodworker brand) and I find
that the edge chips out if I look at it the wrong way. It got
frustrating enough that I relegated it to scraping paint and got
something else to replace it. Hard to say if the Grizzly ones are
good or not, but if they're really cheap I'd be nervous. (Unless you
like sharpening your chisels all the time.)