I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?


tom


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

T,

An 8 year old recently shot his father and his room mate to death here in
AZ. Please keep it locked up.

I'd hate to lose one of the guys I love to hate. ;-)

cm = gun owner


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?


tom


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 00:51:12 +0000, Tom Watson wrote
(in article ):

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

which looks absolutely correct to me unless it's bespoke to a single user's
exact arm measurement when there'll be less variation in forearm positioning
for the next _n_ years. (nice looking piece, btw)

DNFWI.

What do I know? I live in a country where they don't even allow guns to be
kept locked up in gun club ranges anymore..

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?

Generally a checkering cutter, held in a checkering tool handle is used for
this work. Various cutters are made for different lines per inch and
coarseness and for cutting single or multiple rows at one time. I suggest
matching the lines per inch and general checkering style on the grip least
you end up with something less attractive than you started with... The tools
are cheap, it's the skill that's expensive. ;~)

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...CKERING%20TOOL
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...EMENT%20CUTTER
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...&ps=10&si=True

They've got a basic book too...
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...K%20CHECKERING

John

John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?

Generally a checkering cutter, held in a checkering tool handle is used
for this work. Various cutters are made for different lines per inch and
coarseness and for cutting single or multiple rows at one time. I
suggest matching the lines per inch and general checkering style on the
grip least you end up with something less attractive than you started
with... The tools are cheap, it's the skill that's expensive. ;~)

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...CKERING%20TOOL

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...EMENT%20CUTTER

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...&ps=10&si=True


They've got a basic book too...
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...K%20CHECKERING


John

Practice on scrap first, second and third. Then take a deep breath and
repeat until confident in what you are doing.

Generally I'm pretty okay on doing firearm metal work for myself but
never had any luck with woods especially checkering. I completed a few
handgun grips that were alright for me but would never sell such a job
to any individual, besides they were inexpensive grips from a guys
catch-all box I bought at a show. The problem I see here, even for a
pro is getting your checking to match identically to the checking done
on the grip. Personally speaking that particular firearm mentioned in
the OP is an excellent piece, I've owned CZ products for years and
hold their long guns in high regard however if I wanted the forearm
checkered and planned on using a gold-ring scope (aging eyes) I would
upgrade to the American model 452. I've seen some of CZ's work and on
that Turkish walnut their checking is excellent and not to be confused
with a production run job that resembles a cheese grater.



Ray,

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?


tom


Nice looking gun Tom. Although the stock looks like walnut, did you notice
that the stock is Beachwood? You will likely have to also match the stain,
something to consider.

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 04:55:16 -0800 (PST), "R.M.R"
wrote:

Generally I'm pretty okay on doing firearm metal work for myself but
never had any luck with woods especially checkering. I completed a few
handgun grips that were alright for me but would never sell such a job
to any individual, besides they were inexpensive grips from a guys
catch-all box I bought at a show. The problem I see here, even for a
pro is getting your checking to match identically to the checking done
on the grip. Personally speaking that particular firearm mentioned in
the OP is an excellent piece, I've owned CZ products for years and
hold their long guns in high regard however if I wanted the forearm
checkered and planned on using a gold-ring scope (aging eyes) I would
upgrade to the American model 452. I've seen some of CZ's work and on
that Turkish walnut their checking is excellent and not to be confused
with a production run job that resembles a cheese grater.



Ray,

A general query he does the company make *any* models with a
checkered forearm? If so, would it be kosher to call the company and,
well you know, see if you can get *them* to do it? Heh...


cg

Charlie Groh wrote:#A general query he does the company make *any*
models with a checkered forearm? #If so, would it be kosher to call
the company and,
well you know, see if you can get *them* to do it?

~~~~~
Yes sir they do but I'm inclined to believe it would be a substantial
fee almost as close as getting what they call The American model, but
they are a good group that have a reputation for excellent PR so who
knows. Maybe they are in the holiday spirit frame of mind... Ray,

Just about the age when I was allowed to buy my first .22 rifle, a Mossberg
bolt action. I eventually refinished the stock with a hand rubbed oil
finish that came out beautifully; didn't attempt checkering, though bought a
checkering tool and was working up the nerve to attempt it. Ended up
employed as a research engineer for Winchester for 26 years starting in 1964
(the year of the production press checkering). During my initial
orientation I got to spend a day with Nick Kusmit one of the last of the
Winchester Custom Shop engravers (and an exceptional person). During the
late 1960's, early 1970's one of my co-workers collaborated on the
development of a production cut checkering process sufficiently economical
to finally eliminate the press checkering, to the considerable relief to all
who appreciated fine firearms.

John G has given you the keys to the mechanics of the process. It's not
magic. My advice is that checkering should be approached with love and
patience (and a well planned and tasteful paper pattern). I'd suggest first
presenting your fine gift to your son as its makers crafted it. After a
period of ownership that concentrates on the appreciation of fine wood/metal
craftsmanship, safe gun handling and the pure joy of sport shooting, then
see if the boy feels any desire to checker or otherwise customize it. Be
guided by his desires.

A little light reading:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ering&aq=f&oq=

David Merrill

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?


tom


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In reference to David Merrill response:

~~~~~
That was an extremely enjoyable post and throughout the firearm
community the name, Nick Kusmit is considered the master of engraving
and his brother John was also top quality. You don't have to like
firearms to be bewildered by the work some of these masters have done
on metal. I can stand and look at them for hours, not mere firearms
but beautiful works of art and Mr. Kusmit was one of the best. I can
only imagine actually meeting him. Well maybe in another world. Thanks
for sharing you experience, Those type of stories from people like you
I can hear for days. It was well appreciated... Ray,

Thanks to everyone for their responses..

I'm going to go with the idea of seeing how the boy shoots with it and
then think about monkeying with the gingerbread.



tom





On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?


tom


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"David Merrill" wrote in message
news:yNC%k.473166$yE1.395246@attbi_s21...
Just about the age when I was allowed to buy my first .22 rifle, a
Mossberg
bolt action. I eventually refinished the stock with a hand rubbed oil
finish that came out beautifully; didn't attempt checkering, though bought
a
checkering tool and was working up the nerve to attempt it. Ended up
employed as a research engineer for Winchester for 26 years starting in
1964
(the year of the production press checkering). During my initial
orientation I got to spend a day with Nick Kusmit one of the last of the
Winchester Custom Shop engravers (and an exceptional person). During the
late 1960's, early 1970's one of my co-workers collaborated on the
development of a production cut checkering process sufficiently economical
to finally eliminate the press checkering, to the considerable relief to
all
who appreciated fine firearms.

John G has given you the keys to the mechanics of the process. It's not
magic. My advice is that checkering should be approached with love and
patience (and a well planned and tasteful paper pattern). I'd suggest
first
presenting your fine gift to your son as its makers crafted it. After a
period of ownership that concentrates on the appreciation of fine
wood/metal
craftsmanship, safe gun handling and the pure joy of sport shooting, then
see if the boy feels any desire to checker or otherwise customize it. Be
guided by his desires.


I've got a couple of CZ Ringneck model SxS shotguns. They were reasonably
priced and they handle nicely... That said, I'm a fan of their guns and
personally find the Lux attractive. I second David's suggestion to let him
use the gun as-is for now.

BTW, I took a look around the CZ site and noticed they have added models to
their .22 line up... I think I just found my next gun. ;~)

RE engravers, I had the opportunity to meet and spend some time with Lynton
McKenzie when I worked in Colonial Williamsburg's Gunsmith Shop. Absolutely
amazing work that makes my empire dovetails look like child's play. ;~) The
closest I ever got to Kusmit is photos in books and magazines... more
amazing work!

John

T,

I grew up in Michigan and we had 22's and pellet guns from the time we were
12. We could walk to the woods and do our shooting/hunting. There were also
several places we could walk or bike to fish. What a great place to grow up.
I called one of my childhood friends today to chat about the old days. Never
worried about locking the guns up back then, no stranger danger either. Hell
I was so brave I drank water right from the garden hose!!!! Your son is a
lucky kid. Enjoy your kids as the time zips by.

Be safe,

cm


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?


tom


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Several respondents would probably enjoy this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...r ch&aq=f&oq=

As well as this:
http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Canvas-A.../dp/078581891X

David Merrill

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
...

snip...

RE engravers, I had the opportunity to meet and spend some time with
Lynton
McKenzie when I worked in Colonial Williamsburg's Gunsmith Shop.
Absolutely
amazing work that makes my empire dovetails look like child's play. ;~)
The
closest I ever got to Kusmit is photos in books and magazines... more
amazing work!

John

Tom Watson wrote:
Thanks to everyone for their responses..

I'm going to go with the idea of seeing how the boy shoots with it and
then think about monkeying with the gingerbread.



tom





On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

The specs and the reportage on this piece are excellent but it has one
funny elision. It is checkered on the grip but not on the forearm.

Well, you know, that just won't do.

I think that I have a decent read on how to go about this with the
carving tools that I have in hand but - I'm not a gunsmith. Does this
way madness lie?

I figured to lay it out and cut to the bevel on the layout lines - but
what do I know?

Do you guys have a clue as to how this is usually done?


tom


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/


Tom ,
Looking at the picture of that firearm ,it has the traditional European
Schnabel fore end/arm .I'm pretty certain that checkering was not done
on this type of fore end/arm.
Nice rifle BTW ,I have a Brno Model 2 ,which IIRC is the previous name
or owner of CZ .
I've had it for many years and is a great little rifle and very accurate
with the right ammunition fed to it.

Your son is a very lucky fellow, that his Dad would buy him such a rifle
, that he lives in a country where firearm owner ship is viewed as not
politically correct.

--
Kevin (Bluey)
"I'm not young enough to know everything."

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.



--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.

With sufficient training and appropriate supervision, I'm sure an 11 year
old could, safely. Which was rather the point elsewhere.

I keep a box of bandaids in the shop for visitors who, almost without
exception, eventually grab a carving gouge off the bench to take a test cut
or two. Adults need close supervision also.

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.

At what age to you guys over there "grow up" enough to handle a weapon?

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.

Ahhhh...., you are an advocate of keeping the kids ignorant and stupid.
There was a time whenit was considered a rite of passage that all 12 year
old boys got a single shot .22 to learn basic firearm safety and skills.
The safety and skills are the key.

You can't keep the kids locked up forever. And the skills learned will serve
him for the rest of his life.

"Lee Michaels" wrote:

There was a time whenit was considered a rite of passage that all 12
year old boys got a single shot .22 to learn basic firearm safety
and skills.

There was also a time when learning to handle a team of horses behind
a plow was a necessary skill, but times have changed.

Today, interpersonal skills are at a premium.

I still have that single shot .22 my dad used to hunt squirrels. (He
could "bark" a squirrel until he started wearing glasses.)

I shot my first rabbit with it, but that was over 60 years ago.

This summer went back to see where I grew up.

The pasture out my back door where I learned to hunt is now a housing
development.

Back then, there were 250 million people in the US, today it is 300+
million and growing.

It's nice to dream about the good old days, but as my mother used to
say, "times change, and we must change with them."

My children and grand children have absolutely no interest in learning
to use firearms, but then they have acquired skills that do not
interest me.

That's life.

Lew

Leon wrote:


"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.

At what age to you guys over there "grow up" enough to handle a weapon?

According to their nanny government: never.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

I recently read of an 11 year old boy who shot two home invaders that
made entry while home with his mother and grandmother. One died on the
lawn and the other the police picked up at a nearby hospital. You make
the call on that one, but my sorry goes out to the boy that was put in
that predicament by two low life's while protecting his family. He's
nothing short of a hero in my eyes but it will take him years to get
over that event... Ray,

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:30:02 GMT, Aardvark cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.

What is wrong with that? For many people, especially those of the boomer
generation, getting a first gun at this age was commonplace. It went hand
in hand with gun and safety training and respect. It developed responsible
shooters.

On the other hand, you have today's version of it - ignore teaching
responsibility, pretend that if you make guns go away, you'll make problems
go away, lock everything up instead of investing time in your kids. Yup -
that sure works.

--

-Mike-

On Dec 11, 12:30*pm, Aardvark wrote:
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3*for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.


You know, it's funny how cultural differences really pile up. I'm a
liberal, born and raised just outside NYC, but I also enjoy guns,
though I no longer shoot. I know for a fact Tom Watson is a careful
and loving parent, who has already helped his son through Pinewood
Derby competitions and taught him to fish, among many other things.
His children's accomplishments, and what he wants to teach them,
sometimes dominate our conversations, but always pleasantly.

The fact is, any gun, even a single shot .22 like the CZ Tom bought,
is a deadly weapon.

So are kitchen knives.

The only real difference is the range.

Careful handling instructions result in careful handling.

Aardvark, you obviously don't understand the kicks kids, and a lot of
adults, get in seeing precisely placed shots hit a target, whether
that target is on a range, or is just a tin can in a back yard
(probably not advisable in most of the east any more).

Oh. Car keys. I was taught to drive when I was about 12, a year older
than Tom's son. To date, 58 years later, I've managed to miss
everything around me. Today, kids are not likely to learn to drive
without a formal high school course at the age of 16, in most states.
And they do kills themselves (mostly) and others (occasionally). Maybe
we should rescind the driving privilige until they turn 25 when the
stats drop a bit.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:45:55 -0600, Leon wrote:

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys
to your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at
it.

At what age to you guys over there "grow up" enough to handle a weapon?

Generally when old enough to join the armed forces, but even then you're
not allowed to bring any weapons home with you. :-)

In the case of ownership of air weapons the minimum age is 17 but when
and where they can be used is subject to restrictions.

Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
individuals, the UK is 'grown up' enough to realise that this is a bad
idea. A private individual may apply for a firearms certificate at the
age of 18, but has to jump through quite a number of legal and
psychological hoops successfully before it may be issued. If it IS
issued. You have to have an extremely good verifiable reason to keep a
firearm at home.

Nevertheless I have been a big firearm fan all my life.



--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com

Charlie Self wrote:

On Dec 11, 12:30Â*pm, Aardvark wrote:
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:
I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3Â*for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

.... snip
Oh. Car keys. I was taught to drive when I was about 12, a year older
than Tom's son. To date, 58 years later, I've managed to miss
everything around me. Today, kids are not likely to learn to drive
without a formal high school course at the age of 16, in most states.
And they do kills themselves (mostly) and others (occasionally). Maybe
we should rescind the driving privilige until they turn 25 when the
stats drop a bit.

I kind of wonder if that would even help. You would just have older
inexperienced drivers making those mistakes. On the plus side, maybe some
of that young and immortal attitude would have worn off some (but I'm
thinking that doesn't really take hold until the late to mid-30's). On the
negative side, those older inexperienced drivers will have lost some of the
quick reaction times possessed during youth. My guess is that very little
gain would be obtained.

... and I'm pretty sure that parents aren't going to want to be carting
their 24 year-old kid to the kid's job. :-)



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Aardvark wrote:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:45:55 -0600, Leon wrote:

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys
to your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at
it.

At what age to you guys over there "grow up" enough to handle a weapon?

Generally when old enough to join the armed forces, but even then you're
not allowed to bring any weapons home with you. :-)

In the case of ownership of air weapons the minimum age is 17 but when
and where they can be used is subject to restrictions.

Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
individuals, the UK is

subjugated

enough to realise that this is a bad
idea.

Fixed that for ya. Especially since you have no way of justifying that
you have a peaceful society. You have a society in which the thugs run
free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves. No
thanks.



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Charlie Self wrote in
:

*snip*
Oh. Car keys. I was taught to drive when I was about 12, a year older
than Tom's son. To date, 58 years later, I've managed to miss
everything around me. Today, kids are not likely to learn to drive
without a formal high school course at the age of 16, in most states.
And they do kills themselves (mostly) and others (occasionally). Maybe
we should rescind the driving privilige until they turn 25 when the
stats drop a bit.


When I went through HS driver's ed and was qualified to get my license, my
parents weren't ready. How many kids have that kind of "problem" at home?

Hit a deer once, got rear ended once, and that's it. That basically
mirrors my parent's record.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as some
writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Aardvark wrote:

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.

I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every competent
adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:

Safely shoot and handle firearms.
Change a tire.
Change a diaper.
Change the oil in a car.
Cook a meal.
Feed a baby.
Do laundry
Sew on a button.
A wide variety of simple home repairs.

Others?

-- Doug

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
individuals, the UK is


'grown up' and civilised


enough to realise that this is a bad
idea.

Fixed that for ya.

Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.

Especially since you have no way of justifying
that
you have a peaceful society.

Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first place?

You have a society in which the thugs run
free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves.

Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?

Facts & figures

* The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
2006/07 compared to the previous year.
* Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07,
compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
* The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3%
* There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
crimes in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
15% in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in
2006/07 over 2005/06.

(taken from http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-v...educing-crime/
gun-crime/)

I suggest you compare that with US government figures:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.

No
thanks.

What did I offer you?



--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com

Douglas Johnson wrote:

I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every competent
adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:

Safely shoot and handle firearms.
Change a tire.
Change a diaper.
Change the oil in a car.
Cook a meal.
Feed a baby.
Do laundry
Sew on a button.
A wide variety of simple home repairs.

Robert A. Heinlein had this list:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."

I'm pretty sure that is from "Time Enough for Love." I've always liked
the tag line.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:21:22 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:

I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every competent
adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:

Safely shoot and handle firearms.
Change a tire.
Change a diaper.
Change the oil in a car.
Cook a meal.
Feed a baby.
Do laundry
Sew on a button.
A wide variety of simple home repairs.

Robert A. Heinlein had this list:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."

I'm pretty sure that is from "Time Enough for Love." I've always liked
the tag line.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

....well, crap, where do I find a ship to conn!? ;O)

(grew up on Edgar Rice Burroughs and Robert Heinlein..."Tarzan" to
"Starship Troopers" with some "Thuvia Maid of Mars" thrown in there
somewhere...).

cg

Read a tape rule.

Basilisk
"Douglas Johnson" wrote in message
...
Aardvark wrote:

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:51:12 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

I've ordered a CZ Lux bolt action .22
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=3 for my eleven year old
for Christmas.

Very clever. Buying a child a lethal weapon. Why not give him the keys to
your car and tell him to go for a drive through town while you're at it.

I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every
competent
adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:

Safely shoot and handle firearms.
Change a tire.
Change a diaper.
Change the oil in a car.
Cook a meal.
Feed a baby.
Do laundry
Sew on a button.
A wide variety of simple home repairs.

Others?

-- Doug

Aardvark wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
individuals, the UK is

'grown up' and civilised

enough to realise that this is a bad
idea.
Fixed that for ya.

Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.

Especially since you have no way of justifying
that
you have a peaceful society.

Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first place?

You have a society in which the thugs run
free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves.

Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?

Facts & figures

* The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
2006/07 compared to the previous year.
* Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07,
compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
* The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3%
* There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
crimes in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
15% in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in
2006/07 over 2005/06.

(taken from http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-v...educing-crime/
gun-crime/)

I suggest you compare that with US government figures:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.

No
thanks.

What did I offer you?



None of these statistics should be possible in a society that prohibits
the private citizen owning firearms. If no one has buns then no one can
kill someone with one.... Therefore the number of incidents with
firearms can't be reduced one year to the next.


A number of years ago Florida had a problem with gang bangers robbing
and killing residents. They passed a concealed carry law. The number of
incidents with residents went down drastically. The number of incidents
with visitors went up because they couldn't defend themselves. You draw
the conclusions.

Dave

"basilisk" wrote:

Read a tape rule.

I still screw that one up from time to time.
-- Doug

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:41:35 -0600, David G. Nagel wrote:

Aardvark wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
individuals, the UK is

'grown up' and civilised

enough to realise that this is a bad
idea.
Fixed that for ya.

Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.

Especially since you have no way of justifying
that
you have a peaceful society.

Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first
place?

You have a society in which the thugs run free and the law abiding
citizens are afraid to defend themselves.

Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?

Facts & figures

* The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
2006/07 compared to the previous year.
* Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in
2006/07,
compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
* The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3% *
There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
crimes in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
15% in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15%
in
2006/07 over 2005/06.

(taken from http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-v...educing-crime/
gun-crime/)

I suggest you compare that with US government figures:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.

No
thanks.

What did I offer you?



None of these statistics should be possible in a society that prohibits
the private citizen owning firearms.

Of course not, but there will always be a (hopefully decreasing according
to Home Office figures) number of illegally held firearms. And there will
always be the occasional crime committed using a legally held one.

The owning of firearms is certainly NOT prohibited in the UK, it's just
difficult to do, I'm glad to say.

If no one has buns then no one can
kill someone with one....

I'll assume you don't mean confectionery :-)

Therefore the number of incidents with
firearms can't be reduced one year to the next.


The figures from the Home office show an annual reduction in firearm
crime over the last few years.


A number of years ago Florida had a problem with gang bangers robbing
and killing residents. They passed a concealed carry law. The number of
incidents with residents went down drastically. The number of incidents
with visitors went up because they couldn't defend themselves. You draw
the conclusions.


Conclusion: the availability of firearms in the US should be drastically
curtailed. The sooner the better.

Dave





--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:41:53 -0600, Douglas Johnson wrote:

"basilisk" wrote:

Read a tape rule.

I still screw that one up from time to time. -- Doug

Don't we all? :-)



--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com

Aardvark wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private
individuals, the UK is


'grown up' and civilised

Mine was closer to the truth. Subjugated applies when:
a) Someone who defends himself and his family in his home is sent to jail
while the thugs go free -- see previous postings in thread for backup
b) It is illegal to sell table saws that are dado-set capable
c) Somebody has to throw away perfectly good produce because it is too small
according to EU rules. He can't even give them away, they must be
destroyed.
d) Selling produce by English units is punishable by fine
e) Numerous other examples of PC run amok regarding interaction with
your "immigrant" population



enough to realise that this is a bad
idea.

Fixed that for ya.

Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.

Especially since you have no way of justifying
that
you have a peaceful society.

Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first place?

You have a society in which the thugs run
free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves.

Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?

Facts & figures

* The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in
2006/07 compared to the previous year.
* Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07,
compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
* The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3%
* There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun
crimes in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by
15% in 2006/07.
* The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in
2006/07 over 2005/06.

(taken from http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-v...educing-crime/
gun-crime/)

I suggest you compare that with US government figures:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm


Nice statistics, but they don't tell the whole story. Overall, what is
your crime rate compared to years past? Things like assaults, home
invasions, burglaries, homicides (with all weapons)? What is the rate of
arrests and convictions? While gun crimes may be down slightly, reading
various reports indicates that overall crime is up, arrests are down, even
those arrested aren't convicted, those convicted serve very short sentences
(would be a hardship on the perps after all), and law abiding citizens have
few rights to protect themselves.

Various folks who have analyzed your crime rates indicate they weren't all
that high to begin with and it is a stretch to think that your gun laws
have really done anything to reduce that.


I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country
doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.

No
thanks.

What did I offer you?




--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Aardvark wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:41:35 -0600, David G. Nagel wrote:

.... snip


A number of years ago Florida had a problem with gang bangers robbing
and killing residents. They passed a concealed carry law. The number of
incidents with residents went down drastically. The number of incidents
with visitors went up because they couldn't defend themselves. You draw
the conclusions.


Conclusion: the availability of firearms in the US should be drastically
curtailed. The sooner the better.


Huh? I guess by having all the potential victims unarmed, it will reduce
the probability of a visitor being the victim of a crime.

Your conclusion betrays an unmoveable mindset. Despite evidence showing
that an armed citizenry has actually reduced crime, and that an unarmed
subgroup (i.e. visitors) were more likely to be victims because the
criminals (you know, those people who break the law and therefore don't
care if firearms were illegal) know they have a target group that can't
defend themselves -- your conclusion is to disarm the group that can defend
itself. Nice.


Dave






--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough