My dear friend who was also a manufacturing superintendent for me
called last night to let me know that the new Unisaw will be unveiled
today at IWF and will have the "Made in America" badging.

"How can that be?" I asked. Well, it seems that all those decisions I
(we) fought against have been reversed. The Brazilian motor will be
gone in favor of a Marathon. Those chinese castings will be replaced
with castings from, in my opinion, the best all around foundry in the
country, Waupaca. So, with fabrication and assembly in Jackson, TN,
the content will meet the requirement for "Made in America".

I expect it could be pricey. The cost benefit of a very efficient and
nearly fully depreciated facility will not be there and I expect that
all important overhead absorption volume will be down due to those
disastrous decisions of the past. But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Wish I could be there to see it. I passed on IWF this year, it
conflicting with a fishing/scalloping trip planned some time ago and
it looks like TS Fay is going to wipe out that alternative.

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote


My dear friend who was also a manufacturing superintendent for me
called last night to let me know that the new Unisaw will be unveiled
today at IWF and will have the "Made in America" badging.

I expect it could be pricey. The cost benefit of a very efficient and
nearly fully depreciated facility will not be there and I expect that
all important overhead absorption volume will be down due to those
disastrous decisions of the past. But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

That's heartening sign! Thanks for sharing.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news

My dear friend who was also a manufacturing superintendent for me
called last night to let me know that the new Unisaw will be unveiled
today at IWF and will have the "Made in America" badging.

"How can that be?" I asked. Well, it seems that all those decisions I
(we) fought against have been reversed. The Brazilian motor will be
gone in favor of a Marathon. Those chinese castings will be replaced
with castings from, in my opinion, the best all around foundry in the
country, Waupaca. So, with fabrication and assembly in Jackson, TN,
the content will meet the requirement for "Made in America".

I expect it could be pricey. The cost benefit of a very efficient and
nearly fully depreciated facility will not be there and I expect that
all important overhead absorption volume will be down due to those
disastrous decisions of the past. But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

That seems surreal in an environment that worships sending off all our jobs
to China.

If in fact it would be a lot more expensive to manufacture it in the USA,
why did they choose to do it? Any reliable gossip on that?

And how about their recent policy shift on stocking parts for their old
tools. Any change there?

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news

My dear friend who was also a manufacturing superintendent for me
called last night to let me know that the new Unisaw will be unveiled
today at IWF and will have the "Made in America" badging.

"How can that be?" I asked. Well, it seems that all those decisions I
(we) fought against have been reversed. The Brazilian motor will be
gone in favor of a Marathon. Those chinese castings will be replaced
with castings from, in my opinion, the best all around foundry in the
country, Waupaca. So, with fabrication and assembly in Jackson, TN,
the content will meet the requirement for "Made in America".

I expect it could be pricey. The cost benefit of a very efficient and
nearly fully depreciated facility will not be there and I expect that
all important overhead absorption volume will be down due to those
disastrous decisions of the past. But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Wish I could be there to see it. I passed on IWF this year, it
conflicting with a fishing/scalloping trip planned some time ago and
it looks like TS Fay is going to wipe out that alternative.

Frank

Sounds like a Harley come back story revisited. Let's hope that they are as
successful.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:45:08 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news

My dear friend who was also a manufacturing superintendent for me
called last night to let me know that the new Unisaw will be unveiled
today at IWF and will have the "Made in America" badging.

"How can that be?" I asked. Well, it seems that all those decisions I
(we) fought against have been reversed. The Brazilian motor will be
gone in favor of a Marathon. Those chinese castings will be replaced
with castings from, in my opinion, the best all around foundry in the
country, Waupaca. So, with fabrication and assembly in Jackson, TN,
the content will meet the requirement for "Made in America".

I expect it could be pricey. The cost benefit of a very efficient and
nearly fully depreciated facility will not be there and I expect that
all important overhead absorption volume will be down due to those
disastrous decisions of the past. But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

That seems surreal in an environment that worships sending off all our jobs
to China.

If in fact it would be a lot more expensive to manufacture it in the USA,
why did they choose to do it? Any reliable gossip on that?

The price prediction more or less conjecture on my part, neither
gossip nor hard facts to support. However, there was a pricing spread
when the unit was made in Tupelo, but despite that fact, sales were
growing. I've always believed that there is a part of the market that
is willing to pay the premium for a higher level of quality.
Certainly, those that make their living with a tool are not as
sensitive to price as they are to accuracy, long standing reliability
and serviceablity.

And how about their recent policy shift on stocking parts for their old
tools. Any change there?

Don't know about that. Conjecture once again, but B & D may be making
parts discontinuance decisions based on the status of the tooling.
Prior to their obtaining the tool group, a lot of tooling, both
supplier and in-house, was lost in the shuffle. Puts them between a
rock and a hard place as replacing tools for very low volume parts
sales is extraordinarily expensive.

Frank

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news

My dear friend who was also a manufacturing superintendent for me
called last night to let me know that the new Unisaw will be unveiled
today at IWF and will have the "Made in America" badging.

"How can that be?" I asked. Well, it seems that all those decisions I
(we) fought against have been reversed. The Brazilian motor will be
gone in favor of a Marathon. Those chinese castings will be replaced
with castings from, in my opinion, the best all around foundry in the
country, Waupaca. So, with fabrication and assembly in Jackson, TN,
the content will meet the requirement for "Made in America".

I expect it could be pricey. The cost benefit of a very efficient and
nearly fully depreciated facility will not be there and I expect that
all important overhead absorption volume will be down due to those
disastrous decisions of the past. But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Wish I could be there to see it. I passed on IWF this year, it
conflicting with a fishing/scalloping trip planned some time ago and
it looks like TS Fay is going to wipe out that alternative.

Frank

Sounds like a Harley come back story revisited. Let's hope that they are
as successful.

Interesting story on NBC news last night. Seems that Chinese manufacturing
is in trouble. They estimate that 30 percent of the factories in one
province will shutter their doors in the next year. As one Chinese
interviewee stated "There's no cheap labor, anymore". Labor laws in China
have doubled the minimum wage in the last year or so. Many companies are
moving their manufacturing sites to Vietnam and Indonesia as a result.

Tom G.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
. ..

That seems surreal in an environment that worships sending off all our
jobs to China.

If in fact it would be a lot more expensive to manufacture it in the USA,
why did they choose to do it? Any reliable gossip on that?



If quality is better sales should be OK. Festool is expensive and doing
well. Consumers are willing to pay extra for quality but not extra and
lower quality.

"Tom G" wrote in message
news:fGWqk.358$lf2.77@trnddc07...

Interesting story on NBC news last night. Seems that Chinese
manufacturing is in trouble. They estimate that 30 percent of the
factories in one province will shutter their doors in the next year. As
one Chinese interviewee stated "There's no cheap labor, anymore". Labor
laws in China have doubled the minimum wage in the last year or so. Many
companies are moving their manufacturing sites to Vietnam and Indonesia as
a result.


I have heard the same, plus the Chinese have been hoarding oil and gasoline
to prepare for the Olympics.

http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blo...blog&entry=291


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blo...blog&entry=291


Did you note the comment that the only thing the new saw has in common
with the classic Unisaw is its name.

Nevertheless I thought some of the new features were quite interesting.
Both the height and angle wheels are on the front. The demonstrater
claimed that the new angle guage was accurate to 1/2 degree. Built in
riving knife easily adjusted for non-through cuts or completely removable.
John

Tom G wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
My dear friend who was also a manufacturing superintendent for me
called last night to let me know that the new Unisaw will be unveiled
today at IWF and will have the "Made in America" badging.

"How can that be?" I asked. Well, it seems that all those decisions I
(we) fought against have been reversed. The Brazilian motor will be
gone in favor of a Marathon. Those chinese castings will be replaced
with castings from, in my opinion, the best all around foundry in the
country, Waupaca. So, with fabrication and assembly in Jackson, TN,
the content will meet the requirement for "Made in America".

I expect it could be pricey. The cost benefit of a very efficient and
nearly fully depreciated facility will not be there and I expect that
all important overhead absorption volume will be down due to those
disastrous decisions of the past. But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Wish I could be there to see it. I passed on IWF this year, it
conflicting with a fishing/scalloping trip planned some time ago and
it looks like TS Fay is going to wipe out that alternative.

Frank
Sounds like a Harley come back story revisited. Let's hope that they are
as successful.

Interesting story on NBC news last night. Seems that Chinese manufacturing
is in trouble. They estimate that 30 percent of the factories in one
province will shutter their doors in the next year. As one Chinese
interviewee stated "There's no cheap labor, anymore". Labor laws in China
have doubled the minimum wage in the last year or so. Many companies are
moving their manufacturing sites to Vietnam and Indonesia as a result.

Tom G.



Wow, what a shock, free markets actually work??? The anti-globalist,
anti-trade sentiment one frequently hears (especially here) is
foolish. The Chinese/Indian/Sri Lankan/Taiwanese... "cheap" labor
advantage was/is temporary. As these nations continue to participate
in global markets and thereby become more wealthy, their average
salaries will - in currency adjusted terms - start to converge to be
around the same as everyone else's. Sooner or later, people working in
market economies want the same things the wealthy Westerners do - a
nice car, a house, air conditioning, an education, etc. Wage inflation
has already hit Indian IT outsourcing and it is inevitable in China's
manufacturing sector. The only thing that can stop it is violent
suppression by their government (possible) or an invasion by a foreign
power (unlikely).

Trade not only benefits these people, it also makes nations more
interdependent and thus less likely to go to war or otherwise behave
in naughty and violent ways. Yet somehow, it is Westerners - the very
biggest beneficiaries of trade - that lead the whining chorus in
opposition to globalism and markets. Astonishing (and depressing).

One common example of this whining is the insistence that you only
"Buy American" regardless of how good a value an offshore product
might be. I prefer to buy *quality and value*. Sometimes that's an
American product, but not always. Sometimes even the better American
product has so much protectionist goo around it that buying it may be
a mistake. For instance, GM and the execrable UAW are discovering just
how bad the pain can be when you cease participating in fair markets
and hide behind union restraint-of-trade. This makes me disinclined
to buy another Chevy truck when I wonder if the company can even
survive as its unions bleed it to death. As always, Reality trumps
collectivist fantasy...

If you want more peace, slower population growth, better environmental
conditions, better work conditions, fewer poor people, and more good
things for more people, become a market Capitalist. If you hate your
fellow man, subscribe to limited trade, central government control,
tariffs, and "managed" economies.



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"John Siegel" wrote in message
...


Swingman wrote:
http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blo...blog&entry=291


Did you note the comment that the only thing the new saw has in common
with the classic Unisaw is its name.


I did, I wonder if the Beismeyer and or Unifence is gone.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it
where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Near as I can tell, about the only thing Pentair didn't totally screw
up was Hoffman electrical enclosures.

Lew

"Leon" wrote:

If quality is better sales should be OK. Festool is expensive and
doing well. Consumers are willing to pay extra for quality but not
extra and lower quality.


There was a time, before automobiles, when that market segment was
known as the "Carriage Trade".

Lew

"Tom G" wrote:


As one Chinese interviewee stated "There's no cheap labor, anymore".
Labor laws in China have doubled the minimum wage in the last year
or so. Many companies are moving their manufacturing sites to
Vietnam and Indonesia as a result.


Years ago, Jack Welch, CEO of GE, made a rather tongue in cheek remark
about the world wide pursuit of low cost labor, something to the
effect that if you truly want the lowest labor cost, build the factory
on a barge, then tow it to the lowest cost labor pool.

When the pool moves, move the factory.

Using contract manufacturers pretty much accomplishes the same
objective.

Lew

I doubt it.. There isn't a lot design changes you
could make to a fence.

Since Delta owns both, why change such a successful product ?


Leon wrote:
"John Siegel" wrote in message
...

Swingman wrote:
http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blo...blog&entry=291


Did you note the comment that the only thing the new saw has in common
with the classic Unisaw is its name.


I did, I wonder if the Beismeyer and or Unifence is gone.

Pat Barber wrote:
I doubt it.. There isn't a lot design changes you
could make to a fence.

Since Delta owns both, why change such a successful product ?


Leon wrote:
"John Siegel" wrote in message
...

Swingman wrote:
http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blo...blog&entry=291


Did you note the comment that the only thing the new saw has in
common with the classic Unisaw is its name.


I did, I wonder if the Beismeyer and or Unifence is gone.

The one on the saw in the video looks a lot like a Bies.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:24:45 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it
where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Near as I can tell, about the only thing Pentair didn't totally screw
up was Hoffman electrical enclosures.

Lew

Lew, Pentair is doing much better in the business they chose to remain
in that is the water business and the enclosure business. These fit
their business model a little better. Consolidation and globalization
work a lot better when globalization does not just mean send
everything to China, but, actually develop markets outside the U. S.
Those two groups are also more industrial and infrastructure related
and less retail in nature, unlike the tool group and the vehicle
service equipment group, both of which they ruined trying to apply a
business model that had no chance of working.

They went away from the original business model which was to acquire
underperforming companies with great names, leave them autonomous and
give local management the support to do what needed to be done. The
current management wants, it seems, to turn it into a G. E. on a
smaller scale. Not surprised at this, the current CEO is both ex G.
E. and ex McKinsey.

I think they will do well in the future, with most of the growth from
markets in Europe and Aisa, although one component of the business is
pool and spa which has been really negatively affected by the housing
downturn. If you can anticipate the timing of that turning around, it
would be a good stock to buy at that point. (disclosure, I own it).

But they get an F for their management of the tool group.

Frank

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:58:13 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:

Tom G wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news My dear friend who was also a manufacturing superintendent for me
called last night to let me know that the new Unisaw will be unveiled
today at IWF and will have the "Made in America" badging.

"How can that be?" I asked. Well, it seems that all those decisions I
(we) fought against have been reversed. The Brazilian motor will be
gone in favor of a Marathon. Those chinese castings will be replaced
with castings from, in my opinion, the best all around foundry in the
country, Waupaca. So, with fabrication and assembly in Jackson, TN,
the content will meet the requirement for "Made in America".

I expect it could be pricey. The cost benefit of a very efficient and
nearly fully depreciated facility will not be there and I expect that
all important overhead absorption volume will be down due to those
disastrous decisions of the past. But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Wish I could be there to see it. I passed on IWF this year, it
conflicting with a fishing/scalloping trip planned some time ago and
it looks like TS Fay is going to wipe out that alternative.

Frank
Sounds like a Harley come back story revisited. Let's hope that they are
as successful.

Interesting story on NBC news last night. Seems that Chinese manufacturing
is in trouble. They estimate that 30 percent of the factories in one
province will shutter their doors in the next year. As one Chinese
interviewee stated "There's no cheap labor, anymore". Labor laws in China
have doubled the minimum wage in the last year or so. Many companies are
moving their manufacturing sites to Vietnam and Indonesia as a result.

Tom G.



Wow, what a shock, free markets actually work??? The anti-globalist,
anti-trade sentiment one frequently hears (especially here) is
foolish. The Chinese/Indian/Sri Lankan/Taiwanese... "cheap" labor
advantage was/is temporary. As these nations continue to participate
in global markets and thereby become more wealthy, their average
salaries will - in currency adjusted terms - start to converge to be
around the same as everyone else's. Sooner or later, people working in
market economies want the same things the wealthy Westerners do - a
nice car, a house, air conditioning, an education, etc. Wage inflation
has already hit Indian IT outsourcing and it is inevitable in China's
manufacturing sector. The only thing that can stop it is violent
suppression by their government (possible) or an invasion by a foreign
power (unlikely).

Tim, I agree in principle but the reality is it is very difficult to
bring anything back. When a successful and efficient manufacturing
facility is closed in favor of moving offshore, many times the state
of depreciation expense amortization and the present value of the
tooling is such that, if lost, it is rare to be able of afford to come
back, at least within a generation.

I was successful for many reasons. Well trained and efficient work
force, reasonable labor costs, good supply chain management, great
imbedded product knowledge, and a very reasonable depreciation expense
component of the overhead. If closed and all lost or made obselete,
the cost of retooling and equiping would cause depreciation expense to
be about four times what it was. That alone would put me out of the
running not to mention the impact of the lost imbedded knowledge.

So maybe in another generation that equilibrium you describe will be a
reality. In the meantime, I hope this Delta initiative will be a
success.

And I agree with your statement below about buying quality and value.
Quality is a component of value.


Trade not only benefits these people, it also makes nations more
interdependent and thus less likely to go to war or otherwise behave
in naughty and violent ways. Yet somehow, it is Westerners - the very
biggest beneficiaries of trade - that lead the whining chorus in
opposition to globalism and markets. Astonishing (and depressing).

One common example of this whining is the insistence that you only
"Buy American" regardless of how good a value an offshore product
might be. I prefer to buy *quality and value*. Sometimes that's an
American product, but not always. Sometimes even the better American
product has so much protectionist goo around it that buying it may be
a mistake. For instance, GM and the execrable UAW are discovering just
how bad the pain can be when you cease participating in fair markets
and hide behind union restraint-of-trade. This makes me disinclined
to buy another Chevy truck when I wonder if the company can even
survive as its unions bleed it to death. As always, Reality trumps
collectivist fantasy...

If you want more peace, slower population growth, better environmental
conditions, better work conditions, fewer poor people, and more good
things for more people, become a market Capitalist. If you hate your
fellow man, subscribe to limited trade, central government control,
tariffs, and "managed" economies.

"Tom G" wrote

Interesting story on NBC news last night. Seems that Chinese
manufacturing is in trouble. They estimate that 30 percent of the
factories in one province will shutter their doors in the next year.
As one Chinese interviewee stated "There's no cheap labor, anymore".
Labor laws in China have doubled the minimum wage in the last year or
so. Many companies are moving their manufacturing sites to Vietnam
and Indonesia as a result.

Tom G.

Another factor in any decision to manufacture here or overseas is the
increasing cost of shipping.
Especially "heavy iron". G

Max

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

They went away from the original business model which was to acquire
underperforming companies with great names, leave them autonomous
and
give local management the support to do what needed to be done.

Back in the early 60s, a guy named Tinkham Veal, a Clevelander, formed
Alco Standard, basically a holding company.

Aimed at the sole proprietor of a $3-$5Meg business..

The idea was that Alco would provide all of the overhead services such
as human services, legal, etc, thus freeing up time to concentrate on
growing the business.

In return, the sole proprietor would exchange their stock for Alco
stock

Was successful back then, have no idea where things stand today.

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:58:13 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:
SNIP


Wow, what a shock, free markets actually work??? The anti-globalist,
anti-trade sentiment one frequently hears (especially here) is
foolish. The Chinese/Indian/Sri Lankan/Taiwanese... "cheap" labor
advantage was/is temporary. As these nations continue to participate
in global markets and thereby become more wealthy, their average
salaries will - in currency adjusted terms - start to converge to be
around the same as everyone else's. Sooner or later, people working in
market economies want the same things the wealthy Westerners do - a
nice car, a house, air conditioning, an education, etc. Wage inflation
has already hit Indian IT outsourcing and it is inevitable in China's
manufacturing sector. The only thing that can stop it is violent
suppression by their government (possible) or an invasion by a foreign
power (unlikely).

Tim, I agree in principle but the reality is it is very difficult to
bring anything back. When a successful and efficient manufacturing
facility is closed in favor of moving offshore, many times the state
of depreciation expense amortization and the present value of the
tooling is such that, if lost, it is rare to be able of afford to come
back, at least within a generation.

I was successful for many reasons. Well trained and efficient work
force, reasonable labor costs, good supply chain management, great
imbedded product knowledge, and a very reasonable depreciation expense
component of the overhead. If closed and all lost or made obselete,
the cost of retooling and equiping would cause depreciation expense to
be about four times what it was. That alone would put me out of the
running not to mention the impact of the lost imbedded knowledge.

That's clearly true. But I'd suggest - at least at the Big Picture level -
that there will always be a demand for high value/quality goods and
people will pay a premium for it. For example, my first passion in
life is not woodworking but traditional B&W silver chemical photography.
My field camera is a hand made wooden box (Honduran quarter sawn mahogany and
shiny brass) that I paid a *lot* for. Why? Because it is a superbly
executed instrument that nothing else can touch in its class. It does
thing that *no* digital camera, at any price can do (including the
$40K Hasselblad H-39). The manufacturer, Wisner, has a nice little
high end business, building the "best" of something for people who
know the difference. So, while mass manufacturing will migrate to
the lowest cost producer (in a commodity market, the lowest cost
producer always win), I believe there will always be room for crafstmen
to make Ferraris, Steinways, and so on.


So maybe in another generation that equilibrium you describe will be a
reality. In the meantime, I hope this Delta initiative will be a
success.

I think it is happening already and a lot faster than many people
realize. Indian IT outsourcing is taking a real hit because of
wage inflation. Europeans are starting to build factories
here in the US. For the moment this is because of the Dollar/Euro
ratio. But in the not so distant future I think all this new
technology and the success of global trade and markets is going
to drive work to be done by whoever does it *best* at a fairly
constant (currency adjusted) price. I too hope that Delta succeeds
here, but not because "The flag is back" but because I love seeing
high quality anything being made ... no matter where and by whom.



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

They went away from the original business model which was to
acquire
underperforming companies with great names, leave them autonomous
and
give local management the support to do what needed to be done.

Back in the early 60s, a guy named Tinkham Veal, a Clevelander,
formed
Alco Standard, basically a holding company.

Aimed at the sole proprietor of a $3-$5Meg business..

The idea was that Alco would provide all of the overhead services
such
as human services, legal, etc, thus freeing up time to concentrate
on
growing the business.

In return, the sole proprietor would exchange their stock for Alco
stock

Was successful back then, have no idea where things stand today.

It turned into IKON Office Solutions. 8 of the subsidiaries bought
themselves out and formed Alco Industries, based in Norristown, PA.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
I doubt it.. There isn't a lot design changes you
could make to a fence.

Since Delta owns both, why change such a successful product ?



I think a track for a feather board would be a nice improvement and or a way
to keep the far end of the fence down to make a feather board applying
downward pressure more effective.

On Aug 20, 5:26 pm, "Leon" wrote:
"Pat Barber" wrote in message

...

I doubt it.. There isn't a lot design changes you
could make to a fence.

Since Delta owns both, why change such a successful product ?

I think a track for a feather board would be a nice improvement and or a way
to keep the far end of the fence down to make a feather board applying
downward pressure more effective.

Quick change for the faces is nice, too. Check the HTC.

On Aug 20, 3:24 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
Pat Barber wrote:
I doubt it.. There isn't a lot design changes you
could make to a fence.

Since Delta owns both, why change such a successful product ?

Leon wrote:
"John Siegel" wrote in message
...

Swingman wrote:
http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blo...tag=fw-editors...

Did you note the comment that the only thing the new saw has in
common with the classic Unisaw is its name.

I did, I wonder if the Beismeyer and or Unifence is gone.

The one on the saw in the video looks a lot like a Bies.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Love to get one of these. Years ago, I did an endurance report on what
might have been one of the last USA made Unisaws, for WWJ. It would be
fun to do a back-up with this one, see how it compares, and how many
problems crop up over a year. What improvements are real; what
improvements are marketing. Take the lid off and check the trunnions
for size and machining and the complexity--and size and quality--of
any lift and tilt gearing that differs from the original Unisaw. Check
how difficult the saw could be to adjust in 10-15-20 years, not that
I'll be checking tablesaws at those times, but others will. Check
prices. Yeah, this has to be for what Lew calls the "carriage trade"
for a series of reasons. Chinese labor costs may have risen
considerably, but they are nowhere near most U.S.labor costs.
Pollution controls in the U.S. add to costs, as do other environmental
regs. Insurance costs are higher here. U.S. cast iron probably still
draws a premium. Add to that the simple fact that they're apparently
pushing this saw as a complete item. Will they offer the basic saw and
let the woodworker build his/her own tables, drawers, etc.? At the
moment, it doesn't sound like that is going to happen. I'd also like
to see if there are plans to follow the Steel City example and make a
solid granite top available.

I wish it a solid success.

But I also wonder if they'll offer the basic Unisaw as, say, Unisaw
Classic.

Alas, Tim, the world is not quite so black and white as you see it.
Everything doesn't have to be either ultra high end or cheap crap.

And, when you're buying something that's supposed to have some fairly
decent level of quality that no longer does (e.g. Delta, made in
China), but they still want their premium price (though not the $ of
the ultra high end stuff, but not cheap), it's problematic.

GMs problems, even from a cursory look-see appear to go well beyond
those #^%*$ unions.

We're not living inside a computer w/it's limitations to 1 and 0.

Renata


On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:11:38 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:58:13 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:
SNIP


Wow, what a shock, free markets actually work??? The anti-globalist,
anti-trade sentiment one frequently hears (especially here) is
foolish. The Chinese/Indian/Sri Lankan/Taiwanese... "cheap" labor
advantage was/is temporary. As these nations continue to participate
in global markets and thereby become more wealthy, their average
salaries will - in currency adjusted terms - start to converge to be
around the same as everyone else's. Sooner or later, people working in
market economies want the same things the wealthy Westerners do - a
nice car, a house, air conditioning, an education, etc. Wage inflation
has already hit Indian IT outsourcing and it is inevitable in China's
manufacturing sector. The only thing that can stop it is violent
suppression by their government (possible) or an invasion by a foreign
power (unlikely).

Tim, I agree in principle but the reality is it is very difficult to
bring anything back. When a successful and efficient manufacturing
facility is closed in favor of moving offshore, many times the state
of depreciation expense amortization and the present value of the
tooling is such that, if lost, it is rare to be able of afford to come
back, at least within a generation.

I was successful for many reasons. Well trained and efficient work
force, reasonable labor costs, good supply chain management, great
imbedded product knowledge, and a very reasonable depreciation expense
component of the overhead. If closed and all lost or made obselete,
the cost of retooling and equiping would cause depreciation expense to
be about four times what it was. That alone would put me out of the
running not to mention the impact of the lost imbedded knowledge.

That's clearly true. But I'd suggest - at least at the Big Picture level -
that there will always be a demand for high value/quality goods and
people will pay a premium for it. For example, my first passion in
life is not woodworking but traditional B&W silver chemical photography.
My field camera is a hand made wooden box (Honduran quarter sawn mahogany and
shiny brass) that I paid a *lot* for. Why? Because it is a superbly
executed instrument that nothing else can touch in its class. It does
thing that *no* digital camera, at any price can do (including the
$40K Hasselblad H-39). The manufacturer, Wisner, has a nice little
high end business, building the "best" of something for people who
know the difference. So, while mass manufacturing will migrate to
the lowest cost producer (in a commodity market, the lowest cost
producer always win), I believe there will always be room for crafstmen
to make Ferraris, Steinways, and so on.


So maybe in another generation that equilibrium you describe will be a
reality. In the meantime, I hope this Delta initiative will be a
success.

I think it is happening already and a lot faster than many people
realize. Indian IT outsourcing is taking a real hit because of
wage inflation. Europeans are starting to build factories
here in the US. For the moment this is because of the Dollar/Euro
ratio. But in the not so distant future I think all this new
technology and the success of global trade and markets is going
to drive work to be done by whoever does it *best* at a fairly
constant (currency adjusted) price. I too hope that Delta succeeds
here, but not because "The flag is back" but because I love seeing
high quality anything being made ... no matter where and by whom.

On Aug 21, 11:15 am, Renata wrote:
Alas, Tim, the world is not quite so black and white as you see it.
...
.... For example, my first passion in
life is not woodworking but traditional B&W silver chemical photography.
My field camera is a hand made wooden box (Honduran quarter sawn mahogany and
shiny brass) that I paid a *lot* for. Why? Because it is a superbly
executed instrument that nothing else can touch in its class. It does
thing that *no* digital camera, at any price can do (including the
$40K Hasselblad H-39). The manufacturer, Wisner, has a nice little
high end business, building the "best" of something for people who
know the difference. ...

He didn't say he SEES it that way.

He said he PHOTOGRAPHS it that way...

--

FF

Frank Boettcher wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:24:45 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it
where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Near as I can tell, about the only thing Pentair didn't totally screw
up was Hoffman electrical enclosures.

Lew

Lew, Pentair is doing much better in the business they chose to remain
in that is the water business and the enclosure business. These fit
their business model a little better. Consolidation and globalization
work a lot better when globalization does not just mean send
everything to China, but, actually develop markets outside the U. S.
Those two groups are also more industrial and infrastructure related
and less retail in nature, unlike the tool group and the vehicle
service equipment group, both of which they ruined trying to apply a
business model that had no chance of working.

They went away from the original business model which was to acquire
underperforming companies with great names, leave them autonomous and
give local management the support to do what needed to be done. The
current management wants, it seems, to turn it into a G. E. on a
smaller scale. Not surprised at this, the current CEO is both ex G.
E. and ex McKinsey.

I think they will do well in the future, with most of the growth from
markets in Europe and Aisa, although one component of the business is
pool and spa which has been really negatively affected by the housing
downturn. If you can anticipate the timing of that turning around, it
would be a good stock to buy at that point. (disclosure, I own it).


Their stock prices haven't done well for quite some time. They were going
pretty well when they had Delta, afterwards, they lost a significant amount
of value and have been hovering in the $34 to $37 range, off from highs in
the low 40's.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Renata wrote:
Alas, Tim, the world is not quite so black and white as you see it.
Everything doesn't have to be either ultra high end or cheap crap.

And, when you're buying something that's supposed to have some fairly
decent level of quality that no longer does (e.g. Delta, made in
China), but they still want their premium price (though not the $ of
the ultra high end stuff, but not cheap), it's problematic.

The market will solve this problem - in the not so long run
people will not pay premium prices for junk.


GMs problems, even from a cursory look-see appear to go well beyond
those #^%*$ unions.


No - their executives are morons too - but the unions are the
primary problem. Do the math. Look at what the eeeeeeevil
execs have taken out of the company and then the insane payments
the unions have extorted. The exec compensation is rounding error
by comparison.

We're not living inside a computer w/it's limitations to 1 and 0.


I don't claim the world is that binary. But markets have a funny
way of punishing stupidity and sloth. I am currently in the market
to replace my old Chevy truck. Chevy is begging for my business
with unbelievable rebates. The problem? I don't know if they
can survive long enough to support the warranty period, let along
the very long run I tend to own a vehicle. I think I am buying
a Japanese product. This is the market doing its job. Perhaps
someday, the UAW worker who is getting full wages and benefits without
having worked for years may get clued in their that their avarice
destroyed a national institution. Then again... perhaps not.


Renata


On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:11:38 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:58:13 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:
SNIP

Wow, what a shock, free markets actually work??? The anti-globalist,
anti-trade sentiment one frequently hears (especially here) is
foolish. The Chinese/Indian/Sri Lankan/Taiwanese... "cheap" labor
advantage was/is temporary. As these nations continue to participate
in global markets and thereby become more wealthy, their average
salaries will - in currency adjusted terms - start to converge to be
around the same as everyone else's. Sooner or later, people working in
market economies want the same things the wealthy Westerners do - a
nice car, a house, air conditioning, an education, etc. Wage inflation
has already hit Indian IT outsourcing and it is inevitable in China's
manufacturing sector. The only thing that can stop it is violent
suppression by their government (possible) or an invasion by a foreign
power (unlikely).
Tim, I agree in principle but the reality is it is very difficult to
bring anything back. When a successful and efficient manufacturing
facility is closed in favor of moving offshore, many times the state
of depreciation expense amortization and the present value of the
tooling is such that, if lost, it is rare to be able of afford to come
back, at least within a generation.

I was successful for many reasons. Well trained and efficient work
force, reasonable labor costs, good supply chain management, great
imbedded product knowledge, and a very reasonable depreciation expense
component of the overhead. If closed and all lost or made obselete,
the cost of retooling and equiping would cause depreciation expense to
be about four times what it was. That alone would put me out of the
running not to mention the impact of the lost imbedded knowledge.
That's clearly true. But I'd suggest - at least at the Big Picture level -
that there will always be a demand for high value/quality goods and
people will pay a premium for it. For example, my first passion in
life is not woodworking but traditional B&W silver chemical photography.
My field camera is a hand made wooden box (Honduran quarter sawn mahogany and
shiny brass) that I paid a *lot* for. Why? Because it is a superbly
executed instrument that nothing else can touch in its class. It does
thing that *no* digital camera, at any price can do (including the
$40K Hasselblad H-39). The manufacturer, Wisner, has a nice little
high end business, building the "best" of something for people who
know the difference. So, while mass manufacturing will migrate to
the lowest cost producer (in a commodity market, the lowest cost
producer always win), I believe there will always be room for crafstmen
to make Ferraris, Steinways, and so on.

So maybe in another generation that equilibrium you describe will be a
reality. In the meantime, I hope this Delta initiative will be a
success.
I think it is happening already and a lot faster than many people
realize. Indian IT outsourcing is taking a real hit because of
wage inflation. Europeans are starting to build factories
here in the US. For the moment this is because of the Dollar/Euro
ratio. But in the not so distant future I think all this new
technology and the success of global trade and markets is going
to drive work to be done by whoever does it *best* at a fairly
constant (currency adjusted) price. I too hope that Delta succeeds
here, but not because "The flag is back" but because I love seeing
high quality anything being made ... no matter where and by whom.



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
On Aug 21, 11:15 am, Renata wrote:
Alas, Tim, the world is not quite so black and white as you see it.
...
.... For example, my first passion in
life is not woodworking but traditional B&W silver chemical photography.
My field camera is a hand made wooden box (Honduran quarter sawn mahogany and
shiny brass) that I paid a *lot* for. Why? Because it is a superbly
executed instrument that nothing else can touch in its class. It does
thing that *no* digital camera, at any price can do (including the
$40K Hasselblad H-39). The manufacturer, Wisner, has a nice little
high end business, building the "best" of something for people who
know the difference. ...

He didn't say he SEES it that way.

He said he PHOTOGRAPHS it that way...

--

FF



More precisely, my nice B&W film and paper see it that way

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:47:42 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:24:45 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

But it makes me feel good to see
this happen, and I'm happy to see that B & D may actually get it
where
Pentair, didn't have a clue.

Near as I can tell, about the only thing Pentair didn't totally screw
up was Hoffman electrical enclosures.

Lew

Lew, Pentair is doing much better in the business they chose to remain
in that is the water business and the enclosure business. These fit
their business model a little better. Consolidation and globalization
work a lot better when globalization does not just mean send
everything to China, but, actually develop markets outside the U. S.
Those two groups are also more industrial and infrastructure related
and less retail in nature, unlike the tool group and the vehicle
service equipment group, both of which they ruined trying to apply a
business model that had no chance of working.

They went away from the original business model which was to acquire
underperforming companies with great names, leave them autonomous and
give local management the support to do what needed to be done. The
current management wants, it seems, to turn it into a G. E. on a
smaller scale. Not surprised at this, the current CEO is both ex G.
E. and ex McKinsey.

I think they will do well in the future, with most of the growth from
markets in Europe and Aisa, although one component of the business is
pool and spa which has been really negatively affected by the housing
downturn. If you can anticipate the timing of that turning around, it
would be a good stock to buy at that point. (disclosure, I own it).


Their stock prices haven't done well for quite some time. They were going
pretty well when they had Delta, afterwards, they lost a significant amount
of value and have been hovering in the $34 to $37 range, off from highs in
the low 40's.


The tool group was the top performing business that they owned until
they embarked on the disasterous consolidation strategy in 2000.
Measuring the key components ROS, ROIC, cash flow, organic growth, the
tool group was an extremely high performing business.

Then they decided to kill the goose to look for the gold.......

The present value of the equity loss will never be recovered, but I
believe there have been and will be entry points that will be
attractive going forward. Additionally, there is always that "teaser"
thrown out by analysts that they are a prime candidate to be bought by
someone bigger. The recent joint venture with G. E. rekindled that
dream.

Dividend is steady at just about 2% and most analyst have them at a
hold or better.

Frank

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
news
Renata wrote:
Snip


I don't claim the world is that binary. But markets have a funny
way of punishing stupidity and sloth. I am currently in the market
to replace my old Chevy truck. Chevy is begging for my business
with unbelievable rebates. The problem? I don't know if they
can survive long enough to support the warranty period, let along
the very long run I tend to own a vehicle. I think I am buying
a Japanese product. This is the market doing its job. Perhaps
someday, the UAW worker who is getting full wages and benefits without
having worked for years may get clued in their that their avarice
destroyed a national institution. Then again... perhaps not.

I worked for GM dealerships, and sold wholesale GM parts for many years. I
have owned 2 GM trucks and my 3rd truck is an 07 Toyota Tundra. I started
out with appointments to drive GMC, Chev, and Toyota. I was so disappointed
in the GM products ride quality and feel that I almost said I'll wait a few
more years. The local GMC dealer called me at home after my first visit and
offered me an "extremely" good deal on the truck I wanted and a good trade
in price on my 97 Chevy PU. IIRC $18,000 drive out. I drove the GMC
trucks again and went to the Toyota dealer and drove the Tundra. The Tundra
was $5,000 more than the GMC and I had no problem with paying the
difference. The Toyota ride and feel was that much better.

Do yourself a favor and at least test drive the Tundra.

Leon wrote:
"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
news
Renata wrote:
Snip


I don't claim the world is that binary. But markets have a funny
way of punishing stupidity and sloth. I am currently in the market
to replace my old Chevy truck. Chevy is begging for my business
with unbelievable rebates. The problem? I don't know if they
can survive long enough to support the warranty period, let along
the very long run I tend to own a vehicle. I think I am buying
a Japanese product. This is the market doing its job. Perhaps
someday, the UAW worker who is getting full wages and benefits without
having worked for years may get clued in their that their avarice
destroyed a national institution. Then again... perhaps not.

I worked for GM dealerships, and sold wholesale GM parts for many years. I
have owned 2 GM trucks and my 3rd truck is an 07 Toyota Tundra. I started
out with appointments to drive GMC, Chev, and Toyota. I was so disappointed
in the GM products ride quality and feel that I almost said I'll wait a few
more years. The local GMC dealer called me at home after my first visit and
offered me an "extremely" good deal on the truck I wanted and a good trade
in price on my 97 Chevy PU. IIRC $18,000 drive out. I drove the GMC
trucks again and went to the Toyota dealer and drove the Tundra. The Tundra
was $5,000 more than the GMC and I had no problem with paying the
difference. The Toyota ride and feel was that much better.

Do yourself a favor and at least test drive the Tundra.



When I said "truck", I really meant "SUV". I have driven a Tundra, and I
agree that they are really well screwed together machines. Alas, an SUV
serves my day-to-day purposes better than a pick-em-up truck. So, I think
I am going to retire my '95 Tahoe (with which I was 98% happy) with a
a new Nissan Pathfinder - which is much more to my liking than the
new Tahoes with their endless list of useless "features" designed to
grab the soccer mom crowd and of no value at all when hauling wood, skis,
scuba tanks, and so forth. What's really astonishing is that when I
ask the Chevy dealers to get me a base model vehicle with only a
few options, their almost universal response is "we don't bring them
in that way." OK, and I don't buy them any other way. Still ... they
are knocking $10K off the price these days which means the Tahoe - even
pimped out some - is monetarily attractive.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:




When I said "truck", I really meant "SUV". I have driven a Tundra, and I
agree that they are really well screwed together machines. Alas, an SUV
serves my day-to-day purposes better than a pick-em-up truck. So, I think
I am going to retire my '95 Tahoe (with which I was 98% happy) with a
a new Nissan Pathfinder - which is much more to my liking than the
new Tahoes with their endless list of useless "features" designed to
grab the soccer mom crowd and of no value at all when hauling wood, skis,
scuba tanks, and so forth. What's really astonishing is that when I
ask the Chevy dealers to get me a base model vehicle with only a
few options, their almost universal response is "we don't bring them
in that way." OK, and I don't buy them any other way. Still ... they
are knocking $10K off the price these days which means the Tahoe - even
pimped out some - is monetarily attractive.

Toyota now has the Tundra looking SUV but if you want smaller the Pathfinder
should fill the bill.

A little insight in to how the great pricing rebates work now days. Right
now production on new 08 vehicles have pretty much stopped. Incentives are
aimed at relieving dealer inventory. Even in the Spring when vehicles are
still in production the incentives will be better if you pick something off
of the dealers lot. Dealers to trade, but dealers usually do not want to
trade a vehicle that is more likely to sell for one that is less likely to
sell. Especially now with gas prices being inflated a stripped down unit
will be more desirable than a more expensive one with lots of options.
Dealerships typically do not own their vehicle inventory and pay a hefty
floor plan interest on a monthly basis to the manufacturers. I recall a 400
unit inventory of Oldsmobile's in the mid 80's typically cost the dealership
about $1.2 million per year just to have them sitting on the lot. With
today's prices that figure is probably 2 to 3 times higher, so the dealers
really want to turn their inventory rather than trade or order a new unit.
I "was" going to order my Tundra and put the order together with the dealer
but buying off the lot I got an additional $3,000 off of the already $4,000
incentive price reduction in July of last year. I would imagine most all
dealerships are offering better deals these days.

A cautionary word about American Nissan, their sales have been pretty poor
in the last few years and they have been partnered up with Renault IIRC.
Their financial situation is not great either although probably better than
the old big 3. Have you noticed how many times their flag ship car the
Maxima has been redesigned in the last 4 or 5 years?

One more hint that works well in a big city, use an online service like
kbb.com or autobytel.com to set up an appointment with a local dealership to
test drive a car. Typically the dealership will contact you with a price
that is based off of dealer invoice. This will afford you the opportunity
to buy any model on the lot without having to worry about different mark ups
on different models.

Leon wrote:


Toyota now has the Tundra looking SUV but if you want smaller the Pathfinder
should fill the bill.

They also make the 4Runner, based on the Tacoma.

Leon wrote:
....
... The Tundra
was $5,000 more than the GMC and I had no problem with paying the
difference. The Toyota ride and feel was that much better.

Do yourself a favor and at least test drive the Tundra.
....

For a truck to use as a real truck I see no advantage whatsoever in the
Tundra. AFAIK still no diesel available(?), higher price, lower
payload, and at least here the resale value is, if not terrible, not
good (worse than Ford, even)...

Dodge is by far top farm truck locally, followed by Chevy. Ford is tops
in the oil patch fleets by a (relatively slim) margin over Chevy. Dodge
hasn't made inroads there for some reason in the fleet sales.

I've stayed w/ Chevy simply because everything we've ever had has been a
Chevy going back to the '28 I learned to drive in (and which we used
daily as a feed wagon until the late '50s) and consequently know the
dealership so thoroughly there's no reason to switch. I'm sure could
get by w/ the Tundra (the same dealership also has Toyota but they
outsell the Tundra by 10:1 w/ Chevy for work-oriented trucks according
to Pete). Their Toyota auto says are about even w/ GM products, however.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
...
... The Tundra was $5,000 more than the GMC and I had no problem with
paying the difference. The Toyota ride and feel was that much better.

Do yourself a favor and at least test drive the Tundra.
...

For a truck to use as a real truck I see no advantage whatsoever in the
Tundra. AFAIK still no diesel available(?), higher price, lower payload,
and at least here the resale value is, if not terrible, not good (worse
than Ford, even)...

From what I understand, Toyota will be offering the Tundra in a diesel dualy
soon.


Dodge is by far top farm truck locally, followed by Chevy. Ford is tops
in the oil patch fleets by a (relatively slim) margin over Chevy. Dodge
hasn't made inroads there for some reason in the fleet sales.

I've stayed w/ Chevy simply because everything we've ever had has been a
Chevy going back to the '28 I learned to drive in (and which we used daily
as a feed wagon until the late '50s) and consequently know the dealership
so thoroughly there's no reason to switch. I'm sure could get by w/ the
Tundra (the same dealership also has Toyota but they outsell the Tundra by
10:1 w/ Chevy for work-oriented trucks according to Pete). Their Toyota
auto says are about even w/ GM products, however.

I guess it all depends on what the local economy can afford. In Houston the
ratio appears to be much greater, you see lots more new Tundra's than you
see new Ford, GM and Dodge combined.

Leon wrote:
....
I guess it all depends on what the local economy can afford. In Houston the
ratio appears to be much greater, you see lots more new Tundra's than you
see new Ford, GM and Dodge combined.

I doubt a tenth of them are "real work" work trucks...

--

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:


Toyota now has the Tundra looking SUV but if you want smaller the
Pathfinder should fill the bill.

They also make the 4Runner, based on the Tacoma.

i have a 90 4runner, purchased new in 89. 160k miles. i can fit 4x8 plywood
in it flat, with about 2' hanging over the downed tailgate. i've spent
(maybe) $2k for repairs on it besides routine maintenance. it is truly a
rock.