Charlie Self wrote:

Drop the tailgate and gain about 1/2 MPG.

Didn't see Mythbusters? G

http://www.scangauge.com/support/tailgate.shtml
http://www.dailyfueleconomytip.com/aerodynamics/fuel-economy-tip-keep-your-tailgate-up/
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_lowering_the_tailgate_on_a_pickup_truck_incre ase_mpg

Maybe your net was simply much lighter than the steel gate?

The gate up and latched also improves pickup box crash performance. I
would also imagine a lowered gate becoming a projectile in a crash.

I'll bet your web gate trapped enough air to create almost the same
cushion as the steel gate.

Leon wrote:

By any chance did you drive through the mountains? Oddly I have always
gotten better gas mileage when going through the mountains. Thinner air
does not require as high of octane from the fuel to prevent valve clatter
and if you are burning regular elevation fuel 87 or better your mileage
could increase also. Typically gas octane in high elevation regions has an
85 or lower rating.

Thinner air requires a leaner mixture, but overall horsepower is reduced.

This is demonstrated to me every time I fly. G

B A R R Y wrote:
Leon wrote:

By any chance did you drive through the mountains? Oddly I have
always gotten better gas mileage when going through the mountains.
Thinner air does not require as high of octane from the fuel to
prevent valve clatter and if you are burning regular elevation fuel 87
or better your mileage could increase also. Typically gas octane in
high elevation regions has an 85 or lower rating.

Thinner air requires a leaner mixture, but overall horsepower is reduced.

This is demonstrated to me every time I fly. G
I can't speak to milage in this situation but I was always taught that
increasing Octane reduced knock caused by preignition of low octane gas.
This has nothing to do with valve chatter.

Dave

"Leon" writes:

"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message
. ..
krw writes:
In article 3873a9ac-db26-4f79-b3c6-
,
says...
On Aug 23, 7:42 pm, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message


Normally empty but with about 125 bf of walnut 3 people and luggage
from
Arkansas to Houston, about 19.5 mpg.

Wow... can't beat that! Empty, with the motor off, rolling downhill
the whole way with no one in it my F150 won't touch that.

My Ranger gets about that, on a good day. I got about 15MPG from
Ohio to Alabama pulling a 5x9 Uhaul (and about the same from Vermont
to Ohio last year) loaded with 8 maple 2x10s and about 250bf of Ash.
My Ranger only gets about 12-13MPG in the winter though. ...good
thing I left those back in Ohio. ;-)

My ranger averages 23.2mpg lifetime (92,000 miles). I got close to
25mpg with a full load (higher than cab) from Vegas to Bay Area once
which I attributed to better aerodynamics due to the covered load.

('99 2.5l 4-cyl manual shortbed, no a/c)

scot

By any chance did you drive through the mountains? Oddly I have always
gotten better gas mileage when going through the mountains. Thinner air
does not require as high of octane from the fuel to prevent valve clatter
and if you are burning regular elevation fuel 87 or better your mileage
could increase also. Typically gas octane in high elevation regions has an
85 or lower rating.

Over the tehachapi, and the pacheco pass, but the bulk of the route is flat
san joaquin and coyote valley driving.

scott

David G. Nagel wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Leon wrote:

By any chance did you drive through the mountains? Oddly I have
always gotten better gas mileage when going through the mountains.
Thinner air does not require as high of octane from the fuel to
prevent valve clatter and if you are burning regular elevation fuel
87 or better your mileage could increase also. Typically gas octane
in high elevation regions has an 85 or lower rating.

Thinner air requires a leaner mixture, but overall horsepower is reduced.

This is demonstrated to me every time I fly. G
I can't speak to milage in this situation but I was always taught that
increasing Octane reduced knock caused by preignition of low octane gas.
This has nothing to do with valve chatter.

Dave

Please quote carefully.

Leon said that, not me.

I think you're absolutely right about the valves, and can't figure out
why octane would have anything to do with valve noise.

On the other hand, in ground school I learned that detonation is caused
by too low of an octane, with the compression burning the fuel
explosively before the plug fires. Pre-ignition is caused by cylinder
hot spots and burning carbon deposits. The carbon deposits are usually
artifacts from too rich of a mixture resulting in too low cylinder head
temperatures.

Leon wrote:
[snip]


BTY I have al my gas receipts and a calculator in the truck for the specific
purpose of checking gas mileage with every tank. Are we NERDS? ;~)


Well, let's check. Whose ad is on your pocket protector?

geeksville,
jo4hn

p.s. member is good standing of the LAPOOGAN
(loyal and protective order of geeks and nerds)

"Leon" wrote in message
...

By any chance did you drive through the mountains? Oddly I have always
gotten better gas mileage when going through the mountains. Thinner air
does not require as high of octane from the fuel to prevent valve clatter
and if you are burning regular elevation fuel 87 or better your mileage
could increase also. Typically gas octane in high elevation regions has
an 85 or lower rating.

Just back from a week through Colorado and SE Utah in the wife's '06
LandCrusier. I have noticed the same phenomenon this trip and in previous
trips in my '01F250 Power Stroke. Mountain driving seems to improve fuel
mileage by as much as two mpg. I theorize that much of it is due to
decreased speeds, often 45 to 55 mph vs. 75 to 80 on the Colorado, Utah, and
New Mexico interstates. The LandCruiser's trip computer fuel mileage drops
down under 12 mpg out in West Texas where the interstate speed limit is now
80.

If you're not already running synthetic oil, DO. You'll not only
increase your fuel mileage (one mpg, maybe more) but you'll change oil less
often and reduce wear on bearings, rings, valve train and the like.

Dave in Houston

"David G. Nagel" wrote in message
...
B A R R Y wrote:
Leon wrote:

By any chance did you drive through the mountains? Oddly I have always
gotten better gas mileage when going through the mountains. Thinner air
does not require as high of octane from the fuel to prevent valve
clatter and if you are burning regular elevation fuel 87 or better your
mileage could increase also. Typically gas octane in high elevation
regions has an 85 or lower rating.

Thinner air requires a leaner mixture, but overall horsepower is reduced.

This is demonstrated to me every time I fly. G
I can't speak to milage in this situation but I was always taught that
increasing Octane reduced knock caused by preignition of low octane gas.
This has nothing to do with valve chatter.

Yeah, I misspoke there.

jo4hn wrote:
Leon wrote:
[snip]

BTY I have al my gas receipts and a calculator in the truck for the
specific purpose of checking gas mileage with every tank. Are we
NERDS? ;~)

Well, let's check. Whose ad is on your pocket protector?

geeksville,
jo4hn

p.s. member is good standing of the LAPOOGAN
(loyal and protective order of geeks and nerds)

Hmm. I have a /leather/ pocket protector loaded up with a five-piece
Rotring set - it matches the leather case for my nice yellow log-log
Pickett N600-ES. I suppose now I hafta go find some masking tape to put
on my s/s glasses frames. ;-)

What? I don't see any nerds...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"jo4hn" wrote in message
m...
Leon wrote:
[snip]


BTY I have al my gas receipts and a calculator in the truck for the
specific purpose of checking gas mileage with every tank. Are we NERDS?
;~)


Well, let's check. Whose ad is on your pocket protector?



Piggley Wiggley! Wanna make something of it???? LOL

"Dave in Houston" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message


If you're not already running synthetic oil, DO. You'll not only
increase your fuel mileage (one mpg, maybe more) but you'll change oil
less often and reduce wear on bearings, rings, valve train and the like.

Dave in Houston


Yeah, I'm running synthetic, firggen 0W-20 as per Toyota's strong
recommendation over 5W-20. If it were not synthetic I'd be skerd as heck.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Dave in Houston" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message


If you're not already running synthetic oil, DO. You'll not only
increase your fuel mileage (one mpg, maybe more) but you'll change oil
less often and reduce wear on bearings, rings, valve train and the like.

Dave in Houston


Yeah, I'm running synthetic, firggen 0W-20 as per Toyota's strong
recommendation over 5W-20. If it were not synthetic I'd be skerd as heck.


I heard that. When I went to Amsoil's Signature Series 5W30 I watched
the oil pressure gauge drop from just above the half-way mark to about two
needle widths above the quarter mark.

Dave in Houston

Leon wrote:
"Dave in Houston" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message


If you're not already running synthetic oil, DO. You'll not only
increase your fuel mileage (one mpg, maybe more) but you'll change oil
less often and reduce wear on bearings, rings, valve train and the like.

Dave in Houston



Yeah, I'm running synthetic, firggen 0W-20 as per Toyota's strong
recommendation over 5W-20. If it were not synthetic I'd be skerd as heck.



See:

http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm

"The main reason 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil was specified for your engine is to
increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the
Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of
a vehicle manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified
by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to
continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have
poor fuel mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet
mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller
cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel
economy ratings of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change
to a 5W-20 oil will allow Honda and Ford's overall CAFE to increase by a
very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range.
5W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has
less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft,
pistons and valve train, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy.
This increased fuel economy is virtually undetectable to the average
motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing
equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to
a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil. "

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

In article ,
says...
krw writes:
In article 3873a9ac-db26-4f79-b3c6-
,
says...
On Aug 23, 7:42 pm, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message


Normally empty but with about 125 bf of walnut 3 people and luggage from
Arkansas to Houston, about 19.5 mpg.

Wow... can't beat that! Empty, with the motor off, rolling downhill
the whole way with no one in it my F150 won't touch that.

My Ranger gets about that, on a good day. I got about 15MPG from
Ohio to Alabama pulling a 5x9 Uhaul (and about the same from Vermont
to Ohio last year) loaded with 8 maple 2x10s and about 250bf of Ash.
My Ranger only gets about 12-13MPG in the winter though. ...good
thing I left those back in Ohio. ;-)

My ranger averages 23.2mpg lifetime (92,000 miles). I got close to
25mpg with a full load (higher than cab) from Vegas to Bay Area once
which I attributed to better aerodynamics due to the covered load.

('99 2.5l 4-cyl manual shortbed, no a/c)

('01 4.0l 6-cyl, auto, super cab, 4WD, AC) 65K miles. Apparently it
was in an accident before I bought it (*NEW*) because the pait is
all cracking and there is evidence of replaced parts. :-(

--
Keith

In article ,
says...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Dave in Houston" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message


If you're not already running synthetic oil, DO. You'll not only
increase your fuel mileage (one mpg, maybe more) but you'll change oil
less often and reduce wear on bearings, rings, valve train and the like.

Dave in Houston


Yeah, I'm running synthetic, firggen 0W-20 as per Toyota's strong
recommendation over 5W-20. If it were not synthetic I'd be skerd as heck.


I heard that. When I went to Amsoil's Signature Series 5W30 I watched
the oil pressure gauge drop from just above the half-way mark to about two
needle widths above the quarter mark.

I know an Amsoil franchisee who claims the same thing, even after he
seized an engine on the stuff. ;-)

--
Keith

Morris Dovey wrote:
jo4hn wrote:
Leon wrote:
[snip]

BTY I have al my gas receipts and a calculator in the truck for
the
specific purpose of checking gas mileage with every tank. Are we
NERDS? ;~)

Well, let's check. Whose ad is on your pocket protector?

geeksville,
jo4hn

p.s. member is good standing of the LAPOOGAN
(loyal and protective order of geeks and nerds)

Hmm. I have a /leather/ pocket protector loaded up with a five-piece
Rotring set - it matches the leather case for my nice yellow log-log
Pickett N600-ES.

Mine doesn't really advertise anything, it just has a "United
Technologies Hamilton-Standard" logo on it.

I suppose now I hafta go find some masking tape to
put on my s/s glasses frames. ;-)

Flashing on conversation in the dentist's office the other day. The
lovely Doc Irina and her assistant were laughing about the guy who had
come in to fix their computer, who had his glasses held together with
masking tape. They're both Russian--I had to explain the concept of
"nerd" to them.

What? I don't see any nerds...



--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Nova" wrote in message
news:2L%sk.887$w51.156@trnddc01...

See:

http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm

"The main reason 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil was specified for your engine is to
increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal
Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle
manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the
Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue
selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel
mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE
requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have
much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings
of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil
will allow Honda and Ford's overall CAFE to increase by a very small
amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a
lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine
frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valve
train, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel
economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use
of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly
controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30
viscosity motor oil. "


Oops, I lied; the Amsoil Signature Series is 0W30, NOT 5W30. I actually
run the Series 3000 HD Diesel in my Power Stroke which is 5W30. The F250
has in excess of 180k miles all but the first 8k on Amsoil. I put 183k
miles on a '91 Checvy 1500 Silverado 305 gas rig, all but the first 4k miles
on Amsoil and the Land Cruiser is approaching 60k. A friend has gone over
the 300k mile mark on his '96 Dodge Cummins. We both run the oil 24,000
miles between changes with filter changes at 6,000 though I've gone to 8,000
between filters since Amsoil came out with their EA line of filters (they
guarantee them 12,000 miles).

Dave in Houston

"J. Clarke" wrote

Flashing on conversation in the dentist's office the other day. The
lovely Doc Irina and her assistant were laughing about the guy who had
come in to fix their computer, who had his glasses held together with
masking tape. They're both Russian--I had to explain the concept of
"nerd" to them.

The lovely Doc Irina, eh?

What did you tell her who you were?

Lee Michaels wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote

Flashing on conversation in the dentist's office the other day.
The
lovely Doc Irina and her assistant were laughing about the guy who
had come in to fix their computer, who had his glasses held
together
with masking tape. They're both Russian--I had to explain the
concept of "nerd" to them.

The lovely Doc Irina, eh?

What did you tell her who you were?

I think she's figured out that I'm just plain daft.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"krw" wrote in message
t...

('01 4.0l 6-cyl, auto, super cab, 4WD, AC) 65K miles. Apparently it
was in an accident before I bought it (*NEW*) because the pait is
all cracking and there is evidence of replaced parts. :-(


It is not uncommon for "new" vehicles to be delivered to the dealership
damaged and that does not mean that they were in an accident.
Way back in January of 1978, the first year that I worked for an Oldsmobile
dealer our body shop and the Oldsmobile rep were inspecting the roof on a
new Cutlass. Setting on top of the roof panel was a huge hunk of ice that
apparently had some road debris mixed in. The hunk of ice had been sliding
around and literally "sanded?" a hole in the roof of the car. You had to
see it to believe it. The transport driver brought it to our attention that
the seats were wet and the headliner was soaking wet.

We also saw a quarter panel that had been ground down so thin that you could
push it in with your finger. This vehicle was also straight off the trans
port truck with factory paint.

Both the above mentioned vehicles required major panel replacements.

Then there is the very common damaged caused by hail storms that will damage
hundreds of new vehicles setting on the dealers lot. While minor dents can
be repaired that type of repair soon becomes more expensive that replacing a
bolt on panel or fender.

In article ,
says...

"krw" wrote in message
t...

('01 4.0l 6-cyl, auto, super cab, 4WD, AC) 65K miles. Apparently it
was in an accident before I bought it (*NEW*) because the pait is
all cracking and there is evidence of replaced parts. :-(


It is not uncommon for "new" vehicles to be delivered to the dealership
damaged and that does not mean that they were in an accident.

True, but it cannot (legally) be sold as new after. The best I can
find is that it was delivered fine but it was severely damaged at
the dealership, who covered it up. The whole truck was repainted.
Poorly.

Way back in January of 1978, the first year that I worked for an Oldsmobile
dealer our body shop and the Oldsmobile rep were inspecting the roof on a
new Cutlass. Setting on top of the roof panel was a huge hunk of ice that
apparently had some road debris mixed in. The hunk of ice had been sliding
around and literally "sanded?" a hole in the roof of the car. You had to
see it to believe it. The transport driver brought it to our attention that
the seats were wet and the headliner was soaking wet.

Amazing.

We also saw a quarter panel that had been ground down so thin that you could
push it in with your finger. This vehicle was also straight off the trans
port truck with factory paint.

Both the above mentioned vehicles required major panel replacements.

I guess!

Then there is the very common damaged caused by hail storms that will damage
hundreds of new vehicles setting on the dealers lot. While minor dents can
be repaired that type of repair soon becomes more expensive that replacing a
bolt on panel or fender.

Yes, and such damage must be disclosed. The vehicles can't be sold
as new.


--
Keith

Wording is everything, isn't it? I took this question and answer from the
site link you provided.

Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil
in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?

Answer: Absolutely not. Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor
oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute
service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30,
10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for
example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil
will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal
Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the
oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause
of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states
that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket
product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues
to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of
5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is
inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.*



Was I the only one to notice that above is stated,

The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures
it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements
and specifications and was not the cause of failure.

Key words here, "and was not the cause of failure".

So as I read this the manufacturer can indeed refuse to repair an engine
that was not running the specified oil even though the oil met "API service
requirements and specifications". If the oil was the cause of the failure
you are left holding the bag.

That said however the question was asked in such a way as to confuse the
issue. True, if you use a different oil than the manufacturer asks you to
use they still have to warrant the AC system, or paint, or electrical
switches but not an engine failure caused by an non specified oil.

















"Nova" wrote in message
news:2L%sk.887$w51.156@trnddc01...
See:

http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm

"The main reason 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil was specified for your engine is to
increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal
Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle
manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the
Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue
selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel
mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE
requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have
much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings
of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil
will allow Honda and Ford's overall CAFE to increase by a very small
amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a
lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine
frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valve
train, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel
economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use
of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly
controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30
viscosity motor oil. "

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"krw" wrote in message
t...

True, but it cannot (legally) be sold as new after. The best I can
find is that it was delivered fine but it was severely damaged at
the dealership, who covered it up. The whole truck was repainted.
Poorly.

Actually they can legally sell the vehicle as new. The only way they
cannot sell the vehicle as new is if you are not the first owner ov the
vehicle. If you bought the vehicle, never took it off the lot, got it
licensed in your name, and traded it back in for another vehicle it would
then have to be sold ad a used vehicle. The dealer is however required to
disclose any information concerning any major damage repairs done to the
vehicle.

Very often however if the damage is severe enough the insurance company will
total or purchase the new vehicle. They realize that a new car with a lot
of repaired damage is not going to sell.

Vehicles are damaged on the lot on a daily basis, nothing new there.


Way back in January of 1978, the first year that I worked for an
Oldsmobile
dealer our body shop and the Oldsmobile rep were inspecting the roof on a
new Cutlass. Setting on top of the roof panel was a huge hunk of ice
that
apparently had some road debris mixed in. The hunk of ice had been
sliding
around and literally "sanded?" a hole in the roof of the car. You had to
see it to believe it. The transport driver brought it to our attention
that
the seats were wet and the headliner was soaking wet.

Amazing.

We also saw a quarter panel that had been ground down so thin that you
could
push it in with your finger. This vehicle was also straight off the
trans
port truck with factory paint.

Both the above mentioned vehicles required major panel replacements.

I guess!

Then there is the very common damaged caused by hail storms that will
damage
hundreds of new vehicles setting on the dealers lot. While minor dents
can
be repaired that type of repair soon becomes more expensive that
replacing a
bolt on panel or fender.

Yes, and such damage must be disclosed. The vehicles can't be sold
as new.

Yes the damage has to be disclosed but they can be sold as new, at least in
Texas.

In article ,
says...

"krw" wrote in message
t...

True, but it cannot (legally) be sold as new after. The best I can
find is that it was delivered fine but it was severely damaged at
the dealership, who covered it up. The whole truck was repainted.
Poorly.

Actually they can legally sell the vehicle as new. The only way they
cannot sell the vehicle as new is if you are not the first owner ov the
vehicle. If you bought the vehicle, never took it off the lot, got it
licensed in your name, and traded it back in for another vehicle it would
then have to be sold ad a used vehicle. The dealer is however required to
disclose any information concerning any major damage repairs done to the
vehicle.

Not true. If it has been damaged more than some percentage of its
value (depends on state, but is ueuslly quite low 5% where I was at
the time, IIRC), it cannot be sold as new. It must be sold as
rebuilt.

Very often however if the damage is severe enough the insurance company will
total or purchase the new vehicle. They realize that a new car with a lot
of repaired damage is not going to sell.

If it's not disclosed, it may. :-(

Vehicles are damaged on the lot on a daily basis, nothing new there.

Not to that extent, and *not* covered up.

Way back in January of 1978, the first year that I worked for an
Oldsmobile
dealer our body shop and the Oldsmobile rep were inspecting the roof on a
new Cutlass. Setting on top of the roof panel was a huge hunk of ice
that
apparently had some road debris mixed in. The hunk of ice had been
sliding
around and literally "sanded?" a hole in the roof of the car. You had to
see it to believe it. The transport driver brought it to our attention
that
the seats were wet and the headliner was soaking wet.

Amazing.

We also saw a quarter panel that had been ground down so thin that you
could
push it in with your finger. This vehicle was also straight off the
trans
port truck with factory paint.

Both the above mentioned vehicles required major panel replacements.

I guess!

Then there is the very common damaged caused by hail storms that will
damage
hundreds of new vehicles setting on the dealers lot. While minor dents
can
be repaired that type of repair soon becomes more expensive that
replacing a
bolt on panel or fender.

Yes, and such damage must be disclosed. The vehicles can't be sold
as new.

Yes the damage has to be disclosed but they can be sold as new, at least in
Texas.

It sure can't in most states.


--
Keith

"krw" wrote in message
t...

Not true. If it has been damaged more than some percentage of its
value (depends on state, but is ueuslly quite low 5% where I was at
the time, IIRC), it cannot be sold as new. It must be sold as
rebuilt.

Very often however if the damage is severe enough the insurance company
will
total or purchase the new vehicle. They realize that a new car with a
lot
of repaired damage is not going to sell.

If it's not disclosed, it may. :-(

If the dealer wants to get paid for the repair it would be disclosed.


Vehicles are damaged on the lot on a daily basis, nothing new there.


Yes the damage has to be disclosed but they can be sold as new, at least
in
Texas.

It sure can't in most states.

I am sure you are right as I recall the there are often warnings on the
local news after a flood in other states to be leery of new cars being sold
as new. Vehicles involved in floods with water over the bottom of the dash
will forever be problematic.

Typically if the vehicle was a factory damaged problem or one where the
transportation company was liable the factory would arrange to buy back the
vehicle and donate it to a local trade school. Other than that in Texas, an
issued title is all that makes a vehicle used.

In article ,
says...

"krw" wrote in message
t...

Not true. If it has been damaged more than some percentage of its
value (depends on state, but is ueuslly quite low 5% where I was at
the time, IIRC), it cannot be sold as new. It must be sold as
rebuilt.

Very often however if the damage is severe enough the insurance company
will
total or purchase the new vehicle. They realize that a new car with a
lot
of repaired damage is not going to sell.

If it's not disclosed, it may. :-(

If the dealer wants to get paid for the repair it would be disclosed.

*IF*. The fact is that the dealer doesn't get paid.

Vehicles are damaged on the lot on a daily basis, nothing new there.


Yes the damage has to be disclosed but they can be sold as new, at least
in
Texas.

It sure can't in most states.

I am sure you are right as I recall the there are often warnings on the
local news after a flood in other states to be leery of new cars being sold
as new. Vehicles involved in floods with water over the bottom of the dash
will forever be problematic.

You bet! It's not only new cars either. Anything recent can be a
problem.

Typically if the vehicle was a factory damaged problem or one where the
transportation company was liable the factory would arrange to buy back the
vehicle and donate it to a local trade school. Other than that in Texas, an
issued title is all that makes a vehicle used.

Best I can tell, it was delivered OK.

--
Keith

"krw" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...

"krw" wrote in message
t...

Not true. If it has been damaged more than some percentage of its
value (depends on state, but is ueuslly quite low 5% where I was at
the time, IIRC), it cannot be sold as new. It must be sold as
rebuilt.

Very often however if the damage is severe enough the insurance
company
will
total or purchase the new vehicle. They realize that a new car with a
lot
of repaired damage is not going to sell.

If it's not disclosed, it may. :-(

If the dealer wants to get paid for the repair it would be disclosed.

*IF*. The fact is that the dealer doesn't get paid.

Uh, yeah, the dealer gets paid, it was one of my responsibilities that he
did. Being in management in the body shop no work was performed until the
insurance company approved the cost to repair. Now minor scratches or
molding digs were typically absorbed by the dealer as it cost more in time
to have the unit setting and not being available for sale.

In article ,
says...

"krw" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...

"krw" wrote in message
t...

Not true. If it has been damaged more than some percentage of its
value (depends on state, but is ueuslly quite low 5% where I was at
the time, IIRC), it cannot be sold as new. It must be sold as
rebuilt.

Very often however if the damage is severe enough the insurance
company
will
total or purchase the new vehicle. They realize that a new car with a
lot
of repaired damage is not going to sell.

If it's not disclosed, it may. :-(

If the dealer wants to get paid for the repair it would be disclosed.

*IF*. The fact is that the dealer doesn't get paid.

Uh, yeah, the dealer gets paid, it was one of my responsibilities that he
did. Being in management in the body shop no work was performed until the
insurance company approved the cost to repair. Now minor scratches or
molding digs were typically absorbed by the dealer as it cost more in time
to have the unit setting and not being available for sale.

He didn't get paid because he slid it under the rug. He *HAD* to,
or he would have been stuck with a "rebuilt" vehicle with zero miles
on it. They usually don't have insurance against such things either
(thou$and$ in deductibles).

--
Keith

"krw" wrote in message
t...

He didn't get paid because he slid it under the rug. He *HAD* to,
or he would have been stuck with a "rebuilt" vehicle with zero miles
on it. They usually don't have insurance against such things either
(thou$and$ in deductibles).


He got paid. I got paid. The used vehicle status does not apply in Texas
simply because you replace a part.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"krw" wrote in message
t...

He didn't get paid because he slid it under the rug. He *HAD* to,
or he would have been stuck with a "rebuilt" vehicle with zero miles
on it. They usually don't have insurance against such things either
(thou$and$ in deductibles).


He got paid. I got paid. The used vehicle status does not apply in Texas
simply because you replace a part.


Just to take this a bit further, deductibles are not that big of a concern
to dealer after a certain point. Insurance pays full price for repair less
their little discount. This price is still most often more than the dealer
cost even after the deductible is taken out. Because the price that the
dealer collects less the deductible from the insurance company, he still
shows a profit. For example, the deductible is $1,000. Lets say the lot
lizard is parking the vehicle in a row of tightly arranged vehicles. His
front bumper hit the car nest to his parking spot very lightly and put a
crease across the front of the quarter panel, rear door skin, front door
skin and the back of the fender. All of those pieces can be repaired more
cheaply than replacement except for the fender. Seriously the damage is
mostly cosmetic but the repair bill is going to be $2500, less the typical
10% "on parts" for the insurance company less a $1000 deductible. The
fender is the only part being replaced at retail price of $600.. The
insurance company pays $2500 less $60 discount on the parts, less $1000 for
the deductible. The dealer collects $1440. The fender cost is $300, the
dealer internal labor cost is 22 hours at $20 per hour paid to his body men
and painters, the body repair and paint materials cost is $300. This all
comes to a total of $1040. The dealer makes $400.
You have to remember that insurance companies pay retail less the typical
discount of 10% on parts. The dealer has the advantage of doing the repair
at his cost and not paying retail pricing. Body work is a high percentage
profit, money making business. The dealer discloses that there was cosmetic
damage on the car and typically says that he will stand behind the repair as
long as the customer owns the vehicle.