Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote:

NO dog would eat tofu... it's just not done.

Isn't that what I said?

A cat would eat it, then go yak it up in your favorite shoes or
whatever else will be the most annoying to you, and probably throw in
a couple of partially digested stinkbugs for good measure. Cats don't
get mad, they get even.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:
Cats don't
get mad, they get even.

Cats are one of the best reasons the 12GA shotgun was invented.

Where I grew up, any cat more than 1/4 mile from a barn was shot, no
exceptions.

It was obviously was a wild animal.

No self respecting cat would leave warm milk morning and night and all
the mice it could catch.

Lew
..

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:
Cats don't
get mad, they get even.

Cats are one of the best reasons the 12GA shotgun was invented.

Where I grew up, any cat more than 1/4 mile from a barn was shot, no
exceptions.

It was obviously was a wild animal.

No self respecting cat would leave warm milk morning and night and
all
the mice it could catch.

Geez, all those poor cats that you shot while they were off making a
booty call. Cats do not live by warm milk and mice alone.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Robatoy wrote in
:


Absolutely interesting, to say the least.
Are you planning to do any traditional (mortise, wood peg) type
joints?
What about fire code?

I'm still messing with a plan to build something functional and nice
as a wood shop, but won't consider building anything without Morris'
solar panels. I'm even thinking of taking down some shutters on each
side of the South facing windows of our house, and replacing them with
some sort of stylish solar panel. I really like my current shop and
its location, but the multiple thousands of dollars it took last year
to heat and cool the joint (mostly heating) is wearing thin real
quick.... AND it is well insulated.

There are always 'purists' to the point of making me ill. The ones
that talk about 'fresh' tofu... wtf is 'fresh' tofu?... but I
digress..

r


That solar panel idea is a good one! Sometimes the best place to hide
something is in plain sight.

And, if the electronics guys get really fancy, they could add servos and
things to the slats in the shutters and follow the sun. (REALLY fancy
and the shutters close themselves when NWS* issues a severe thunderstorm
warning.)

* or Canada's equivalent agency

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

True, my test was NOT controlled, but a M&T joint would not be broken by
hand. The parts were 15 inches, my error. The first initial movement of
the joint is to pull the fibers apart, not to bend them. Tyr pulling a 1/8
dowel apart.

I don't see an answer to difference between Lamello and PC biscuits.

In article eY2nk.465$_H1.417@trnddc05,
Lew Hodgett wrote:
...snipped...
Where I grew up, any cat more than 1/4 mile from a barn was shot, no
exceptions.
...snipped...


Shortage of push sticks in that area?


--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 13:44:24 -0500, "Leon" wrote:

;~), boy that Domino saved me lot's of time on my last job. I think I put
in about 28 loose tennons on just the legs on the walnut desk. Throw in
probably 54 for the top and shelves for aligning the pieces of wood and
another 28 for the shelf skirts. Biscuits would have worked on the top and
shelf panels but it would have been over 100 mortises done on the mortiser
for the shelf and leg skirts. On this job alone the Domino probably saved
me 1 full day of work and that is about 1/3 the cost of the Domino.

Well, Leon, I've never done a mortise in my life and I'm still having to remind
myself that a "loose" tenon is a GOOD thing...
I hear that expression and think "chair doctor needed here"..

Then again, I'm a turner and haven't even MET Jack..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Leon" wrote in message
for the shelf and leg skirts. On this job alone the Domino probably saved
me 1 full day of work and that is about 1/3 the cost of the Domino.

Leon, just out of interest's sake have you tested the strength in a Domino
connection by purposely trying to break a stile connection off a rail? I'm
wondering what kind of strength is inherent in those Domino biscuits or what
kind of resistance was encountered before the stile split off the Domino
biscuit?

"Upscale" wrote

wondering what kind of strength is inherent in those Domino biscuits or
what
kind of resistance was encountered before the stile split off the Domino
biscuit?

Although the machine itself is a spin-off of the plate joiner design, I
would be hard pressed to classsify the Domino "loose tenons" as "biscuits".

Here is the supposed results of a relatively recent (07) "Wood" magazine
"joint strength" test of various "loose tenon" methods:

Shear Test

Mortise and tenon 1,017 pounds (461 kg)
Dowelmax 609 pounds (276 kg)
Beadlock 541 pounds (245 kg)
Domino 464 pounds (210 kg)
Biscuits 187 pounds (85 kg)

Pull-apart Test

Mortise and tenon 2,525 pounds (1,145 kg)
Dowelmax 1,866 pounds (846 kg)
Domino 1,486 pounds (674 kg)
Beadlock 1,170 pounds (530 kg)
Biscuits 766 pounds (347 kg)

That said, while it's interesting, I don't know that I'd trust this
particular rag to be the final word on anythng ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"mac davis" wrote in message
...


Well, Leon, I've never done a mortise in my life and I'm still having to
remind
myself that a "loose" tenon is a GOOD thing...

LOL, They tighten up.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
for the shelf and leg skirts. On this job alone the Domino probably
saved
me 1 full day of work and that is about 1/3 the cost of the Domino.

Leon, just out of interest's sake have you tested the strength in a Domino
connection by purposely trying to break a stile connection off a rail? I'm
wondering what kind of strength is inherent in those Domino biscuits or
what
kind of resistance was encountered before the stile split off the Domino
biscuit?



No I have not tested them however, the smallest Domino is 5mm thick, 18mm
wide, and 30 mm long. There are 4 larger sizes up to 10mm thick, 23 mm
wide, and 50 mm long. All are made of solid Beech wood.
Additionally and unlike the single thin thickness biscuits the Domino
machine can be set so that the slot is a perfect fit, thick and width wise.
This is great for indexing alignment as the machine has multiple ways to
index the location of the mortice. The following mortises can be set to be
cut a bit wider than the Domino, to ease assembly.

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:03:22 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

Although the machine itself is a spin-off of the plate joiner design, I
would be hard pressed to classsify the Domino "loose tenons" as "biscuits".

Gotta go along with that... from what I've seen, they're more like an
oval-shaped dowel than a biscuit..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:03:22 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

Although the machine itself is a spin-off of the plate joiner design, I
would be hard pressed to classsify the Domino "loose tenons" as
"biscuits".

Gotta go along with that... from what I've seen, they're more like an
oval-shaped dowel than a biscuit..

Actually a Domino is flat on both ends and on top and bottom only the side
edges are round with a radius half the thickness, so the round edges are
perfect half circles.

On Aug 10, 1:34 pm, "Leon" wrote:
I'm
wondering what kind of strength is inherent in those Domino biscuits or
what
kind of resistance was encountered before the stile split off the Domino
biscuit?

No I have not tested them

Don't know how you can keep from getting out there and in Dr.
Frankenstein's lab and come up with some kind of home built test.
With the Domino testing so well against everything we know to use
these days in quick joining, I would have to know how it stacks up in
my little end of the world in my hands.

I would be thinking, "OK, looks good in the books, looks good on
paper. BUT, how does it really stack up in the Leon Field Trials of
Death?"

That's the kind of stuff I actually enjoy doing.

Robert

On Aug 10, 10:03 am, "Swingman" wrote:

Although the machine itself is a spin-off of the plate joiner design, I
would be hard pressed to classsify the Domino "loose tenons" as "biscuits".

I don't see how they could at all. I am surprised they didn't put the
Krieg system in there and call it a "metal rod biscuit" or some other
baloney.

Here is the supposed results of a relatively recent (07) "Wood"
magazine
"joint strength" test of various "loose tenon" methods:

SNIP

That said, while it's interesting, I don't know that I'd trust this
particular rag to be the final word on anythng ...

I think it is important to realize that in some cases these magazines
buy these tests, contract these tests, and in other situations
probably just buy the copy outright. Mssr. Self would know the
protocols on that.

But what gets me, is the way they test the machines. Once again, we
are looking for the end all, do all type machine. Where is that
machine? With a tip of the hat to the shop bound fellas that do this,
I don't really care how well it works in the quiet confines of my shop
with all the proper room, clamping equipment, and time I need to get
the machine squared away.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if you tried out those tools again
in the hands of someone that drives up the the job to trim an house
and build a couple of laundry cabs or a built in clothes hamper, he
will take the Domino first, and the biscuit machine second.

As for strength of joints... great for those who want to exert several
hundred pounds of pressure on wood working efforts. How many magazine/
casual/professionals have seen enough failures of any of those systems
to be of concern.

I think too for the lowly biscuit, it is important to remember that
they only test with one biscuit in the joint. Two biscuits give a
tremendous gain in a joint, and unless it is 3/4" material, everyone I
know uses two now.

I am not a big proponent of biscuits, but until I can justify the cost
of the Domino (quit taking those damn roof repairs, Robert....) the
biscuit joiner will stay with me. I will try to remember that I have
NEVER had a joint that was joined with biscuits fail.

Who knows - since my joints don't come apart... there may NEVER be a
Domino in the future for me. I actually be more interested in the
Rotex Super MF 1000 Platinum Stealth Wood Transformer and Satellite
Tracking tool. They sell it as a "sander" (yeah - right!) down at
WoodCraft.

One day...

Robert

wrote in message
...

Don't know how you can keep from getting out there and in Dr.
Frankenstein's lab and come up with some kind of home built test.
With the Domino testing so well against everything we know to use
these days in quick joining, I would have to know how it stacks up in
my little end of the world in my hands.

LOL, For me the Domono had the advantage of using tennons with up to 4-5
times the mass of a biscuit and cuts the mortises in a lot smaller spot
with no extra slot required as each biscuit slot does. Try using a FF
biscuit on the end of a 1" wide piece of wood. ;~)



I would be thinking, "OK, looks good in the books, looks good on
paper. BUT, how does it really stack up in the Leon Field Trials of
Death?"

Actually I did sorta do a small experiment when I first got the Domino. I
glued 2 pieces of 3/4" MDF to gether with 2 small 5mm Domino's. The pieces
were orientated lake a rail and stile glued side edge to end edge The
mortises were side by side a couple of inches apart, not stacked. The
surface alignment was perfect and the joint was strong enough that the joint
did not fail when trying to seperate the pieces by hand. I suspect with no
tennons the 2 pieces would have seperated pretty easily if only glued edge
to edge. Biscuits no doubt would have added strength too.
IMHO biscuits are still goint to be hard to beat when joining 45 degree
mitered corners when you want to have the extra reinforcement near the outer
corner.


That's the kind of stuff I actually enjoy doing.

Robert

" writes:
On Aug 7, 8:38 pm, Tom Watson wrote:

How often have you wondered at how a piece can fail one month after
the warranty is over. It is perfect engineering, according to its
lights.

Honestly, I have never, ever wondered how to cut things that close.
Never had any interest in that kind of horsecrap, and don't want to
learn. I am not interested in cutting "that fine line" of cost v.
utility.

I don't like any kind of warranty work, and I am ****ed off if I get a
warranty call on any aspect of our work.

If it is for work I personally did, I am in disbelief. I have a great
track record because I take the extra steps, and if I need to spend a
little more time and effort to get the job I want for the client, I
will spend it out of my own pocket if I have to. Not my first
preference to pay extras myself, but I just hate sub par work. I hate
warranty calls (embarrassing and costly) more than just about any
aspect of business, just behind my taxes.

I am known to tell my clients "well.... I know what you are saying,
but I am find this hard to believe. Why don't I slip by a little
later and I'll look at the XXXX together?" I am better than I used to
be (mellowed?) and don't get indignant right off the bat.

I know for many here this is something they have heard as much as I
did when I was starting out: Do it right the first time and forget
about it. Go on to the next project.

This hits on Swing's point. Why not? Why not take the extra few
minutes to be dead bang 110% sure of your work? It makes me proud and
confident to know that I did a good job.

It is good to be the guy on the phone with a little disbelief in your
voice when someone tells you there is a problem with your work. It's
better to be able to back up your disbelief when you see what the
"problem" is when you see it.

Before anyone starts in here, I am not saying I am perfect and not
every single job gets my undying effort. But my goal is to make my
work is as good as I can make it (within reason) before I turn it
over. I make sure my client gets 110% of what they pay for.

Belt and suspenders? Yup, that's me.

Robert

So where do you live and can I hire u?
I would love to find somebody with that work effort and fair prices.

Tom Watson writes:
I keep my unused plates in a container with several SilicaGel bags
that help keep the moisture content down to less than 4%. I also
throw in a cheap hygrometer ($6.00) to make sure that moisture is not
an issue.

Your friend is right about tapping the plates in; they are no good if
they need more than a gentle push to insert them.

Lamello used to have standards on their website to let you know if the
biscuits had gone out of spec.


Although I keep my PC biscuits in a zip-locked bag, I'm concerned that
over the years they may have absorbed some moisture.

Is there any fast/easy/cheap way of drying them out such as baking in
an overn or microwave?

Thanks

Tom Watson writes:
I keep my unused plates in a container with several SilicaGel bags
that help keep the moisture content down to less than 4%. I also
throw in a cheap hygrometer ($6.00) to make sure that moisture is not
an issue.

Your friend is right about tapping the plates in; they are no good if
they need more than a gentle push to insert them.

Lamello used to have standards on their website to let you know if the
biscuits had gone out of spec.


Although I keep my PC biscuits in a zip-locked bag, I'm concerned that
over the years they may have absorbed some moisture.

Is there any fast/easy/cheap way of drying them out such as baking in
an overn or microwave?

Thanks

"blueman" wrote in message

Although I keep my PC biscuits in a zip-locked bag, I'm concerned that
over the years they may have absorbed some moisture.

Is there any fast/easy/cheap way of drying them out such as baking in
an overn or microwave?

Thanks

Do they still fit into the slot? If so, they are OK, if not try putting
them in a 200 degree oven for a time.

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:11:59 -0400, blueman wrote:

Tom Watson writes:
I keep my unused plates in a container with several SilicaGel bags
that help keep the moisture content down to less than 4%. I also
throw in a cheap hygrometer ($6.00) to make sure that moisture is not
an issue.

Your friend is right about tapping the plates in; they are no good if
they need more than a gentle push to insert them.

Lamello used to have standards on their website to let you know if the
biscuits had gone out of spec.


Although I keep my PC biscuits in a zip-locked bag, I'm concerned that
over the years they may have absorbed some moisture.

Is there any fast/easy/cheap way of drying them out such as baking in
an overn or microwave?

Thanks

I live with a lot of humidity, so when I'm using biscuits, I put them in the
microwave on "thaw" for a few minutes.. they get noticeably thinner..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing