On Jan 9, 5:30 pm, "Joe" wrote:
"Stewart Schooley" wrote in message

.. .





"Joe" wrote in message
.net...

There are too many schools in this country where 1/3 of the students
show up to be students,1/3 shows up to hang out and 1/3 doesn't show up.

It's time to separate students into different schools according to their
motivation and to give up the idea that if we spend enough money we can
save everybody.

Stewart

I don't have the solution, but that has to be the biggest bunch of hooey
I've ever read.

jc

jc,

I have 33 years experience in education. How about you?

I don't need 33 years to have an opinion.

I may have used a pretty broad brush for purposes of brevity,

Damn straight.

but I am right

on target in stating the major problem in education today.

Attendance? Maybe.



I would find it difficult to measure 'motivation'. Opens the doors to way
too much confilct (lawsuits when you segregate based on subjective
measure?), which Iguess could be mitigated with lots of time and money which
would be better poured into educators than more bureacracy, which is what
the conflict mitigation would be.



It is sad, but never the less we can't allow those who don't want to learn
to disrupt those who do.

Agreed.

One of the longstanding bitches about public education has been the
superiority of private educaton: I submit that if private schools had
to take the students that cannot be kept out of public schools, they
would be no better. It's a little like cherry picking in a wood pile,
getting the best knot free wood with the prettiest grain, leaving the
knottyd ebris for the next guy, and then complaining because the
second guy doesn't produce as fine furniture as the first.

On Jan 8, 11:20 am, "Swingman" wrote:
"John E." wrote

As the father of a child saddled with both a learning disability and an
extremely high IQ, I'm naturally curious about your parameters.

I'm the father of one young lady with a severe learning disability and a
respectably above average IQ (and with a helluva lot of fortitude and
character), who is now a senior in college.

It would boggle most minds to observe the volumes of paperwork, hard drive
files, e-mail, letters, minutes of IEP meetings, faxes, documentation of
threats/praise/encouragement to teachers/educrats (for doing/not doing what
they were paid to do), and the constant vigilance and involvement that was
necessary during the "public school K-12" part of the above educational
experience.

IMNSH(and very experienced)O ... the "What" we need in today's crippled
public education system can be inarguably be summed up in one word ... the
only word that is the basis of ALL solutions:

"parents"

You nailed it. Of far greater importance than fancy schools and highly
paid teachers, parents who spend time with their kids, and have an
interest in what the kids are learning, IMO. My mother started school
in what was effectively a one room school house, but her parents
helped her get and keep an interest in learning. The local high school
was larger and more modern, but kids back then got away with zilch in
school. She went on to locate a nursing school that paid a small
stipend ($15 a month) plus room and board, and got her RN. This was in
1928, and her studies contined on for three years, culminating in a
job with the Feds that paid $1,100 a year, which was pretty decent
money in 1931. Parental involvement.

That RN license allowed her to keep our family afloat when my father
was unable to work: all of it traces back to my lightly educated
grandparents wanting their kids to better themselves. Out of 12 kids
who lived to be adults, there were athree RNs, one high school Latin
teacher, a contractor (probably made the most money of the lot), an
exec for, IIRC, Hechinger lumberyards (granddad had a farm and
sawmill--shades of the Waltons and same area, but a whole lot sweatier
lifestyle), one was an auto mechanic (taught by my father) who ended
up as a teacher of auto mechanics at a local junior college, one guy
who worked in a machine shop, an assistant postmaster in
Charlottesville, VA, and on. All got away from the farm, or mostly
away. My auto mechanic uncle always raised a huge truck garden,
filling his own family's needs, and giving the rest (about 70% most
years) to local elderly or disabled people. One aunt married a farmer--
he died last year at 92, but she's still going, as is the former Latin
teacher and the assistant postmaster.

On Jan 8, 11:40 am, "Stewart Schooley" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

. net...



There are too many schools in this country where 1/3 of the students show
up to be students,1/3 shows up to hang out and 1/3 doesn't show up.

It's time to separate students into different schools according to their
motivation and to give up the idea that if we spend enough money we can
save everybody.

I don't have the solution, but that has to be the biggest bunch of hooey
I've ever read.

jc

jc,

I have 33 years experience in education. How about you?

I may have used a pretty broad brush for purposes of brevity, but I am right
on target in stating the major problem in education today.

Can't you see that Swingman has it right? The sad truth is that too many
parents have relegated their children into being "hewers of wood and drawers
of water" and their isn't enough money or knowledge of what to do that will
correct this.

It is sad, but never the less we can't allow those who don't want to learn
to disrupt those who do.


True, but today's kids, "hewers of wood,..." ain't exactly accurate.
Maybe if these kids had some meaningful chores as was the case 100
years ago and earlier, they wouldn't be so hard to teach. They'd
already have some self-esteem, and deservedly so because they earned
it.

Today's kids are too often handed money and ignored. Too many parents
that I've seen confuse discipline with punishment, too, so never
discipline their kids. Parenting is in the toilet today in far too
many cases.

"George" wrote

What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A History
of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.

'Rookwood' - William Harrison Ainsworth. Written in 1834, considered by
literati to be the last "Gothic" novel. Half way through 'The Lancashire
Witches', by same, written in 1845 ... Being the cheap ******* I am, I get
all my recreational reading from Project Gutenberg.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"LRod" wrote

By the way, I am not at all unfamiliar with the concept that there may
be more to that story than was presented or published. But on the face
of it, there's a lesson which ties into this thread.

How about, "You reap what you sow"?


Bingo!

On Jan 9, 6:31 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message

For decades, we've been accommodating the tender sensibilities of
the *students* in K-12, we've failed to hold parents accountable
for their end of the education process, and we've let the NEA
mafia hijack the process to serve their political ends. We now
reap what we've sown. The only fix is to go back to local/private
schools and make the connection much more clear between those
who pay for education, those who conduct education, and the
results they produce.

I thought the solution was more money. All we ever hear is how we don't
spend enough on education and how we need new buildings and new computers.

Education sure went to hell when the draft dodgers became teachers to avoid
Viet Nam, later became administrators, and the politically correct factions
came in. We really have to get back to basics and demand an education and
don't push kids ahead that have not learned in the grade they were in.

I'll buy your last premise, but the draft dodger bit is pure nonsense.
First, there were not all that many draft dodgers. Second, it is
difficult to figure which ones could become school teachers; for the
most part, they had to run like hell away from the law for most of
their college years, so they weren't licensed to teach or do much
else. You may be confusing draft evaders with draft dodgers--draft
evasion, such as mine (I enlisted in the Marines) is legal, as is
coming up with specious excuses for not enlisting or being drafted:
just ask Dick "Five Deferments" Cheney ("I've got better things to
do").

"Charlie Self" wrote

One of the longstanding bitches about public education has been the
superiority of private educaton: I submit that if private schools had
to take the students that cannot be kept out of public schools, they
would be no better. It's a little like cherry picking in a wood pile,
getting the best knot free wood with the prettiest grain, leaving the
knottyd ebris for the next guy, and then complaining because the
second guy doesn't produce as fine furniture as the first.

Along with paying school taxes for public education, suppose I, as a
taxpayer, was allowed to draw on those same school tax dollars and send my
child to any school, public or private, which had proven itself superior at
"educating", instead of being forced, economically speaking, to attend a
subpar school run by the current educrat bureaucracy, which we all agree is
not doing its job?

IOW, if the money from school tax revenue currently allocated for the actual
'teaching', not infrastructure, were allowed to 'follow the child, instead
of the school', you would arguably put the educrats out of business in short
order, with a resultant increase in the quality of education.

Worth a shot, IMO ... goodness knows the current system is a miserable
failure.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 8, 12:59 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"John E." wrote in message
I noticed you sidestepped my main question, who gets to decide who's
"motivated" and who's just a lil *******?

How about "the student" ... through aptitude testing/testing, much the same
as is done currently to decide who goes to college, only at an earlier age.

England moved away from such a "Tripartite" system, that observably worked
extremely well, through an "Eleven plus exam", and now, after trotting off
down a less sucessful path, appears to be moving back in that direction.

Once again, see:

http://www.summitsat.co.uk/about-11-plus-exam.php

And once more, in a past post of mine:

"8th grade is a good 'fork in the road' ...

Those who have the desire to continue with
a classic education and go on to college can
continue on a different track without being drug
down by the shenanigans of those who have no
desire to ever go to college.

Those who want to go into a trade or technical
field don't have to sit through the crap and can
immediately get down to the business of learning
the skills that will eventually get them though life."

A much better solution for all concerned, including the country, IMO.


In some ways, it certainly is better. I'm not sure how well it handles
the occasional misfit like me, though. By 9th grade, I was ready to do
something else, though I was still doing well in school. The next year
saw me totally inactive as a student, a feature that continued
throughout high school, with the exception of American history classes
and English. I passed and was seldom disruptive, but I sure didn't
learn much--to my later regret. I also enjoyed woodworking and machine
shop, but had no idea of a career direction--that didn't really come
until I was most of the way through college, and 29 years old. I was
30 when I finally quit working my way through college, and sometimes
wonder why I bothered. A degree in English lit is not exactly a career
opening key, and wasn't intended to be. Part of it was to get my
mother off my ass, and part was to see what I could find out about
writing in other ages. Those worked pretty well. I still prefer
potboilers for recreational reading, but do a lot of reading in
various areas of history, archaelogy, and similar subjects. I like to
think I have a modest understanding of what has made people tick over
the ages, though I'm sure I'm wrong in some areas. The degree was
actually more of a start to a true education than it was the end of an
education. Too many people today seem to consider any college degree
as a ticket to big bucks; mine couldn't even get me a job--which is
why I ended up doing what I'm doing. A couple years as a substitute
teacher was enough to convince me that wasn't my field.

It may not be generally important to allow a bit more flexibility than
the Brits were noted for having, but I think there is some importance,
though I would imagine something along the lines of the GED as it is
in use today might work. And, hell, I might have enjoyed standing at a
lathe or milling machine day after day just as much as I enjoy sitting
behind a computer. Or more. Roads never taken...at least not for long
enough to make a solid determination. One of my old high school
friends combined careers: he was a model making machinist and also
road raced motorcycles in the AFM. Today, he teaches sail planing.
Gene never finished high school but owns land parecels all over the
western U.S.as a retirement package.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:57:27 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Charlie Self" wrote

One of the longstanding bitches about public education has been the
superiority of private educaton: I submit that if private schools had
to take the students that cannot be kept out of public schools, they
would be no better. It's a little like cherry picking in a wood pile,
getting the best knot free wood with the prettiest grain, leaving the
knottyd ebris for the next guy, and then complaining because the
second guy doesn't produce as fine furniture as the first.

Along with paying school taxes for public education, suppose I, as a
taxpayer, was allowed to draw on those same school tax dollars and send my
child to any school, public or private, which had proven itself superior at
"educating", instead of being forced, economically speaking, to attend a
subpar school run by the current educrat bureaucracy, which we all agree is
not doing its job?

IOW, if the money from school tax revenue currently allocated for the actual
'teaching', not infrastructure, were allowed to 'follow the child, instead
of the school', you would arguably put the educrats out of business in short
order, with a resultant increase in the quality of education.

Worth a shot, IMO ... goodness knows the current system is a miserable
failure.

You mean like..."vouchers?"


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote

You mean like..."vouchers?"

Although that word/concept has been thoroughly tainted by the idiocracy,
whatever it takes to get the money to go with the kid ... tax
incentives/credits/whatever.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Charlie Self wrote:
On Jan 9, 6:31 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message

For decades, we've been accommodating the tender sensibilities of
the *students* in K-12, we've failed to hold parents accountable
for their end of the education process, and we've let the NEA
mafia hijack the process to serve their political ends. We now
reap what we've sown. The only fix is to go back to local/private
schools and make the connection much more clear between those
who pay for education, those who conduct education, and the
results they produce.
I thought the solution was more money. All we ever hear is how we don't
spend enough on education and how we need new buildings and new computers.

Education sure went to hell when the draft dodgers became teachers to avoid
Viet Nam, later became administrators, and the politically correct factions
came in. We really have to get back to basics and demand an education and
don't push kids ahead that have not learned in the grade they were in.

I'll buy your last premise, but the draft dodger bit is pure nonsense.
First, there were not all that many draft dodgers. Second, it is

No, but there were a lot of anti-establishment "poor little rich
kid" radicals who avoided the draft serially by getting student
deferments or their equivalent. I recall fairly vividly that
one strategy for staying out of 'Nam was graduate school. So
we produced a generation of "educators" who were radical in their
politics, suspicious of Western intellectual tradition, and
not honestly interested in teaching particularly. The results
speak for themselves. Go peek under the covers of pretty
much any state or secular private university and see what
is being taught in the schools of Liberal Arts and it
will make you want to puke.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:
On Jan 9, 6:31 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message

For decades, we've been accommodating the tender sensibilities of
the *students* in K-12, we've failed to hold parents accountable
for their end of the education process, and we've let the NEA
mafia hijack the process to serve their political ends. We now
reap what we've sown. The only fix is to go back to local/private
schools and make the connection much more clear between those
who pay for education, those who conduct education, and the
results they produce.
I thought the solution was more money. All we ever hear is how we don't
spend enough on education and how we need new buildings and new
computers.

Education sure went to hell when the draft dodgers became teachers to
avoid
Viet Nam, later became administrators, and the politically correct
factions
came in. We really have to get back to basics and demand an
education and
don't push kids ahead that have not learned in the grade they were in.

I'll buy your last premise, but the draft dodger bit is pure nonsense.
First, there were not all that many draft dodgers. Second, it is

No, but there were a lot of anti-establishment "poor little rich
kid" radicals who avoided the draft serially by getting student
deferments or their equivalent. I recall fairly vividly that
one strategy for staying out of 'Nam was graduate school. So
we produced a generation of "educators" who were radical in their
politics, suspicious of Western intellectual tradition, and
not honestly interested in teaching particularly. The results
speak for themselves. Go peek under the covers of pretty
much any state or secular private university and see what
is being taught in the schools of Liberal Arts and it
will make you want to puke.



Here are some fine examples: http://www.reason.com/news/show/124072.html

Money Quote from the U. Of Delaware (since rescinded, I believe):

"[A] racist is one who is both privileged and socialized on the basis
of race by a white supremacist (racist) system. The term applies to
all white people (i.e., people of European descent) living in the
United States, regardless of class, gender, religion,
culture or sexuality."

We can trace this kind of intellectual sewage directly to its 1960s
counterculture roots. These people have infested our education system
and turned it into a madrasah for their radical lunacy. And we
wonder why Johnny can't read, write, or think? He was "educated"
by people who studied under fools.

Broad brush? Yes. True? Mostly.



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...




One of the longstanding bitches about public education has been the
superiority of private educaton: I submit that if private schools had
to take the students that cannot be kept out of public schools, they
would be no better.

Well, the way it has played out for me, our son went to both private and
probably some of the worse and best public schools in the Houston area.
Private schools have one distince advangate over public schools. The
private shcools don't baby sit for the parents, they disipline the child
when that is needed and they are not restricted like public schools are.
Additionally, kids that go to private schools probably have a larger
percentage of parents that are more involved than those going to the public
schools. I can assure you that the small private school that my son went to
also had the less desirable kids but those kids were not allowed to act like
wild indians. My son was friends with one of the less desirable ones in
private school and both went to the same public high school. In the public
school the other boy was expelled often and graduated literally last in his
class. He did well when in the private school. Both of his parents were
much more well to do than we were, so money was not an issue. Both had full
time professional careers and I'd say that their son did not receive the "at
home" attention that he needed.

Leon wrote:
....

....

Additionally, kids that go to private schools probably have a larger
percentage of parents that are more involved than those going to the public
schools.

Bingo 1...

....
also had the less desirable kids but those kids were not allowed to act like
wild indians. My son was friends with one of the less desirable ones in ...
....
much more well to do than we were, so money was not an issue. ...

Bingo 2...

Take inner-city kids, make them 80% of the student body and see how the
same school fares over time...

--

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:54:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

Leon wrote:
...

...

Additionally, kids that go to private schools probably have a larger
percentage of parents that are more involved than those going to the public
schools.

Bingo 1...

...
also had the less desirable kids but those kids were not allowed to act like
wild indians. My son was friends with one of the less desirable ones in ...
...
much more well to do than we were, so money was not an issue. ...

Bingo 2...

Take inner-city kids, make them 80% of the student body and see how the
same school fares over time...

Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private
schools.

And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by
issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their
child out of the "undesireables' " schools.

Now, when we take money from Peter (the public schools) to help Paul
(the parents who don't want their kids to go to the "undesireables' "
schools) how does that improve the already underfunded public
education system?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote

What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A
History of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.

'Rookwood' - William Harrison Ainsworth. Written in 1834, considered by
literati to be the last "Gothic" novel. Half way through 'The Lancashire
Witches', by same, written in 1845 ... Being the cheap ******* I am, I get
all my recreational reading from Project Gutenberg.

Legacy of Ashes; The History of the CIA, Tom Weiner

I've started Tom Brokaw's BOOM about the baby-boomer generation.
--
NuWave Dave in Houston

George wrote:
....

What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A
History of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.

Sherman's _Memoirs_ succeeding Grant's (the latter of which I stumbled
into on a recommendation found in reading Ike, the relatively new
biography)...now I'm ready to try to find Jos. Johnstone's, Sheridan and
wherever that may lead...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
...

...

Additionally, kids that go to private schools probably have a larger
percentage of parents that are more involved than those going to the
public schools.

Bingo 1...

...

Amen to that. Along those same lines, my sister teaches an advanced science
course (8th grade level) as well as the 'normal' level for the same course.
On parent night, 100% of the advanced students' class came to talk to her.
Only one parent of the 'normal' level class showed up. Hmmmm....... Maybe
there is something to this whole parent-involvement thing.


jc

"George" wrote in message
. net...

"Roger Woehl" wrote in message
. ..
Greetings,
For all responders to this topic, in which generation would you place
yourself? Traditionalist (born pre1945), Boomer, GenX, Millennial (GenY)


A more appropriate question would be "when did you stop learning?" Think
you'd find the end of the alphabet quit before the "traditionalist."

What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A History
of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.


The Soul of a Tree
A Woodworker's Reflections
George Nakashima

jc

"LRod" wrote

Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private
schools.

And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by
issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their
child out of the "undesireables' " schools.

IIRC, it is taxpayer money that pays for everything government spends.

Our schools are not "underfunded" around here by a long shot, they're
"misfunded".

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman said:

"LRod" wrote

Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private
schools.

And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by
issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their
child out of the "undesireables' " schools.

IIRC, it is taxpayer money that pays for everything government spends.

Well it sure isn't the interest from savings. The government at this
point is akin to a crack head nephew with your charge card and PIN.

Our schools are not "underfunded" around here by a long shot, they're
"misfunded".

Correct again. One major factor - bloated, bureaucracies stuffed with
favor passing cronies - at least around here. Many weak contenders
who can not make it through elections consider it an alternate
stepping stone to public service. Even when failing to reach that
goal, you should see some of the ridiculous salaries - many of which
the pubic is unaware of. School superintendent - $238,000 a year.
Not a major city, just an outlying country. School board attorney -
$420,000 + "bond referral fees" which add up to hundreds of thousands
more in some high growth areas. And yep, it's all your money. Wasted.


Greg G.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:05:20 -0600, dpb wrote:

George wrote:
...

What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A
History of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.

Sherman's _Memoirs_ succeeding Grant's (the latter of which I stumbled
into on a recommendation found in reading Ike, the relatively new
biography)...now I'm ready to try to find Jos. Johnstone's, Sheridan and
wherever that may lead...

Try to find John McAllister Schofield's "46 years in the Army." He was
in the same class at the Point as Sheridan, succeeded him as
Commanding General of the Army, served as Secretary of War, was an
envoy to France, called the Hero of Franklin (TN, Battle of...) won
the Medal of Honor, Schofield Barracks, HI, is named for him. His
brother developed the Schofield revolver.

A shirttail relative, he was born 7 miles (and 115 years) from where I
was.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Snip



Correct again. One major factor - bloated, bureaucracies stuffed with
favor passing cronies - at least around here. Many weak contenders
who can not make it through elections consider it an alternate
stepping stone to public service. Even when failing to reach that
goal, you should see some of the ridiculous salaries - many of which
the pubic is unaware of. School superintendent - $238,000 a year.
Not a major city, just an outlying country. School board attorney -
$420,000 + "bond referral fees" which add up to hundreds of thousands
more in some high growth areas. And yep, it's all your money. Wasted.


And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools, and
making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky
beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last
superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.

Leon said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .
Snip

Correct again. One major factor - bloated, bureaucracies stuffed with
favor passing cronies - at least around here. Many weak contenders
who can not make it through elections consider it an alternate
stepping stone to public service. Even when failing to reach that
goal, you should see some of the ridiculous salaries - many of which
the pubic is unaware of. School superintendent - $238,000 a year.
Not a major city, just an outlying country. School board attorney -
$420,000 + "bond referral fees" which add up to hundreds of thousands
more in some high growth areas. And yep, it's all your money. Wasted.


And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools, and
making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky
beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last
superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.

Forgot to mention that the salaries I mentioned are from 15 years ago.
They've gotten worse. Apparently GA wasn't much better than Houston
last time I noticed. I moved to Florida and ironically enough, the
same clown they ran out of GA ended up in the Pinellas County school
system - along with his perv son who tormented the locals with
helicopters and such over property tax foreclosures on "postage stamp"
properties near housing developments. I wonder if they are related to
the Detroit Mob Toccos? Nevertheless, he is another Rove/Bush tool. I
wonder how these folks rationalize these behaviors with their rolls in
public service?

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...ges/ATocco.jpg
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/16/ne..._buyer_m.shtml

Lucky you, he is now in Fort Worth, Texas.
2004 salary - $314,212. His daily pay rate for 2004 was $1,309.20.

Nice!


Greg G.

Leon said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .
Snip

Correct again. One major factor - bloated, bureaucracies stuffed with
favor passing cronies - at least around here. Many weak contenders
who can not make it through elections consider it an alternate
stepping stone to public service. Even when failing to reach that
goal, you should see some of the ridiculous salaries - many of which
the pubic is unaware of. School superintendent - $238,000 a year.
Not a major city, just an outlying country. School board attorney -
$420,000 + "bond referral fees" which add up to hundreds of thousands
more in some high growth areas. And yep, it's all your money. Wasted.


And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools, and
making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky
beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last
superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.

I forgot to include one of my favorite Mark Twain truisms:

First, God created idiots. That was for practice.
Then he created school boards.


Greg G.

Greg G. said:

Leon said:
And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools, and
making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky
beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last
superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.

Lucky you, he is now in Fort Worth, Texas.
2004 salary - $314,212. His daily pay rate for 2004 was $1,309.20.

Errata:
No longer the superintendent of Ft. Worth. No forwarding address.
2005 salary was $376,000.

Gads, if we all got raises like that the economy would be booming - if
it weren't taxpayer money, that is. Not to mention the outstanding
lifetime health care and retirement programs - at your expense. If the
average American knew what these guys and their pals in the judiciary,
house.and senate voted for themselves, there would be pitchforks
aplenty headed towards DC and severed heads lining K-street.

Screw the tea in Boston Harbor.


Greg G.

Now is as good a time as any to ask why so many school districts are funded
thru property taxes. This of course results in smaller, wealthier cities
getting far more of their share of state funding than they need per student.

A good example is here in Los Angeles county CA. There's a small
incorporated city named San Marino that has one of the highest per capita
incomes in the state that borders the city of Pasadena. The San Marino
school district spends far more per student than does the Pasadena Unified
District yet they're held to the same testing standards by the state. Is
spending more necessarily better? Maybe, maybe not but giving students in a
publically funded school more of the means to succeed than others merely
because they get more money from the state is simply wrong.

To my mind, public schools should be funded as needed on a per student
basis, not on what the value of the homes are which surround the school.

John E.



"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:54:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

Leon wrote:
...

...

Additionally, kids that go to private schools probably have a larger
percentage of parents that are more involved than those going to the
public
schools.

Bingo 1...

...
also had the less desirable kids but those kids were not allowed to act
like
wild indians. My son was friends with one of the less desirable ones
in ...
...
much more well to do than we were, so money was not an issue. ...

Bingo 2...

Take inner-city kids, make them 80% of the student body and see how the
same school fares over time...

Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private
schools.

And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by
issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their
child out of the "undesireables' " schools.

Now, when we take money from Peter (the public schools) to help Paul
(the parents who don't want their kids to go to the "undesireables' "
schools) how does that improve the already underfunded public
education system?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

"John E." wrote

To my mind, public schools should be funded as needed on a per student
basis, not on what the value of the homes are which surround the school.

You get that passed, Bubba and I'll kiss your ass anywhere/time/place you
want and give you time draw a crowd.

Don't get me started on property taxes ... I'm ready to f*&^$$ murder over
that issue ... I'm going to cough up in excess of $14K in three weeks (75%
of that going to "school taxes), while my neighbor across the street will
pay 1/4 of that for the same SERVICES!!

Gimme a f(*&^ break!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Leon" wrote

And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools,
and making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky
beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last
superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.

In this case, an absolute perfect example of "being educated beyond your
intelligence..."!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman said:

"John E." wrote

To my mind, public schools should be funded as needed on a per student
basis, not on what the value of the homes are which surround the school.

You get that passed, Bubba and I'll kiss your ass anywhere/time/place you
want and give you time draw a crowd.

Don't get me started on property taxes ... I'm ready to f*&^$$ murder over
that issue ... I'm going to cough up in excess of $14K in three weeks (75%
of that going to "school taxes), while my neighbor across the street will
pay 1/4 of that for the same SERVICES!!

Gimme a f(*&^ break!

My condolences. Not that this helps any with your situation, but what
is interesting is that while I lived within the county of crony school
board and judicial asshats partially documented above, I lived within
the city of Marietta. The city ran their own school system, fire,
police, electrical, garbage, and water services. All of which
resulted in property taxes which were considerably less than the more
sparsely populated county at large, yet all of the mentioned services
were included. No additional charge. If you sat a refrigerator in the
street they would pick it up. They maintained the roads, sewers,
street lights, and even swept the streets on a regular basis. And
still managed to keep the taxes lower than the county at large. It was
an example of fiscally conservative policies that worked in the
public's favor. The county, however, hired half mil lawyers, quarter
mil superintendents, bought into *TAD's and generally mismanaged the
taxpayers money in general. You additionally had to pay private
enterprise for electrical, water, sewage, street lights, and garbage.

Has Houston hired the remaining runoff that fled GA, by chance, or did
they simply all go to the same f'd up business college? Got room for
a couple of judges who will be out of a job later this year?

(*TAD's)
http://gonelikethewind.blogspot.com/...-politics.html



Greg G.

Geez you guys! I thought this woodworking thread was to learn "how" to build
a soapbox... not climb up on it!

And what's with all those book titles you bandy about?!? I don't think I've
seen any one of them on Oprah's book list!

(snicker)

--
Message posted via CraftKB.com
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.as...rking/200801/1

Charlie Self wrote:

I'll buy your last premise, but the draft dodger bit is pure nonsense.
First, there were not all that many draft dodgers. Second, it is

Maybe you just hung out at a different school. There were enough of them
going to college only for the deferment. My 1962-63 high school Civics
teacher told us not only how to avoid the draft, but how to work summers and
collect unemployment the rest of the year. I can give a list of names if
you need it.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:34:50 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


Charlie Self wrote:

I'll buy your last premise, but the draft dodger bit is pure nonsense.
First, there were not all that many draft dodgers. Second, it is

Maybe you just hung out at a different school. There were enough of them
going to college only for the deferment. My 1962-63 high school Civics
teacher told us not only how to avoid the draft, but how to work summers and
collect unemployment the rest of the year. I can give a list of names if
you need it.

Wait a minute...wasn't a deferment a legitimate program available to
any otherwise draft eligible youth? How can you criticize or
characterize someone as less than honoroble who took advantage of such
an opportunity? I had a student deferment until I got hired by the
FAA. If you want to call me a draft dodger you'd better be prepared to
come here and do it to my face. You may not like the result.

As it turned out, the ankle injury I incurred years before made me
ineligible. Not 4F, but not healthy enough for the level at which they
were inducting at the time.

Later, when the lottery started, my number was three digits and
started with a three. Does that make me a draft dodger?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

LRod wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:05:20 -0600, dpb wrote:

George wrote:
...

What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A
History of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.
Sherman's _Memoirs_ succeeding Grant's (the latter of which I stumbled
into on a recommendation found in reading Ike, the relatively new
biography)...now I'm ready to try to find Jos. Johnstone's, Sheridan and
wherever that may lead...

Try to find John McAllister Schofield's "46 years in the Army." He was
in the same class at the Point as Sheridan, succeeded him as
Commanding General of the Army, served as Secretary of War, was an
envoy to France, called the Hero of Franklin (TN, Battle of...) won
the Medal of Honor, Schofield Barracks, HI, is named for him. His
brother developed the Schofield revolver.

A shirttail relative, he was born 7 miles (and 115 years) from where I
was.

Schofield was well represented by both Grant and Sherman but Johnstone
for his role as antagonist on the campaign to Atlanta (during which J
Davis had him removed) and then later when he was reinstated struck me
I'd like to read more of his side of the story--then, of course,
Sheridan for his derring-do, so to speak as unattached cavalry to see
what he thought of how it went as opposed to what Sherman thought and
expected. Methinks there were a lot more "aw-sh__" moments than one
might think from this point. Then, of course, that hasn't yet
touched Lee...I've already got Schofield on the list, but it'll probably
be another year or two before I get there--there's only about another
month or so of real winter and then farming picks up again in earnest
(assuming it rains some more this year than last, anyway)...

--

dpb wrote:
....

Sheridan for his derring-do, so to speak as unattached cavalry to see
what he thought of how it went as opposed to what Sherman thought and
expected. ...

Grant, not Sherman intended there, of course...

All these guys are pretty doggone impressive when you look at their
lifelong body of work not just the Civil War era. Makes most of the
folks we hear of today seem pretty small ime(stimation) in comparison.

I'm also constantly reminded of what "tough" really meant--the 12-yr old
regimental drummer boys, for example. Where are 12-yr olds today?

--

"LRod" wrote in message

Wait a minute...wasn't a deferment a legitimate program available to
any otherwise draft eligible youth?

Yes, when used as intended. The only reason some people went to college and
in certain occupations was strictly for that deferrment. They would be
considered draft dodgers.



How can you criticize or
characterize someone as less than honoroble who took advantage of such
an opportunity?

See above.

I had a student deferment until I got hired by the
FAA. If you want to call me a draft dodger you'd better be prepared to
come here and do it to my face. You may not like the result.

Why are you making an ass of yourself with the tough talk? Did you used to
be the schoolyard bully? Or just a big mouth?


As it turned out, the ankle injury I incurred years before made me
ineligible. Not 4F, but not healthy enough for the level at which they
were inducting at the time.

So who gives a crap?

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:25:28 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message

Wait a minute...wasn't a deferment a legitimate program available to
any otherwise draft eligible youth?

Yes, when used as intended. The only reason some people went to college and
in certain occupations was strictly for that deferrment. They would be
considered draft dodgers.

How do you read motive in someone's heart?

How can you criticize or
characterize someone as less than honoroble who took advantage of such
an opportunity?

See above.

Must be some magic goggles.

I had a student deferment until I got hired by the
FAA. If you want to call me a draft dodger you'd better be prepared to
come here and do it to my face. You may not like the result.

Why are you making an ass of yourself with the tough talk? Did you used to
be the schoolyard bully? Or just a big mouth?

I'm sensitive on the subject. I went to college with a student
deferment from 1964 through 1967. I was never in the military. There
are some people who try to create a nexus between those two
circumstances which doesn't reflect favorably on me in their eyes.
They verbalize that at their peril. No bully, no big mouth, but I
won't stand by to be labeled as something I wasn't. Would you?

As it turned out, the ankle injury I incurred years before made me
ineligible. Not 4F, but not healthy enough for the level at which they
were inducting at the time.

So who gives a crap?

I see. Never mind.



--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote in message

How do you read motive in someone's heart?


When they say "I'm in school to avoid the draft" you sort of get a hint.



Must be some magic goggles.

Nothing magical, you just listen to what they say. Such as "I'm not going
in the f---n army." Some of these were in my school, neighbors, etc.



I'm sensitive on the subject. I went to college with a student
deferment from 1964 through 1967. I was never in the military. There
are some people who try to create a nexus between those two
circumstances which doesn't reflect favorably on me in their eyes.
They verbalize that at their peril. No bully, no big mouth, but I
won't stand by to be labeled as something I wasn't. Would you?

I did not label you at all, but your making what appears to be a physical
threat just makes you look like the big bully. Quite laughable, really.
Generally comes from lack of self confidence, I'm told.

"John E." wrote in message
...


To my mind, public schools should be funded as needed on a per student
basis, not on what the value of the homes are which surround the school.


That doesn't work either. Took all of two contracts to eat up a doubling of
per student funding in our district when they went to your system.

The property tax still comes up for anything but "operating expenses," so
there's no running from that, either.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
dpb wrote:
...

Sheridan for his derring-do, so to speak as unattached cavalry to see
what he thought of how it went as opposed to what Sherman thought and
expected. ...

Grant, not Sherman intended there, of course...

All these guys are pretty doggone impressive when you look at their
lifelong body of work not just the Civil War era. Makes most of the
folks we hear of today seem pretty small ime(stimation) in comparison.

I'm also constantly reminded of what "tough" really meant--the 12-yr old
regimental drummer boys, for example. Where are 12-yr olds today?

--

Knifing each other on the playground to protect dope-selling turf....