I am working on my foot/head board rails. If I don't have the two sides
exactly parallel to each other than the slats will not fit at a constant
length from left to right.

Question #1: If I am off a little in parallel is their a trick to fix the
slats so they all fit ? I was going to attach them to the rails with
biscuits.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

Here is the bed:
http://www.garagewoodworks.com/Ellis_Mission_Bed.htm

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

"If I don't have the two sides exactly parallel to each other than the slats
will not fit at a constant length from left to right."

I am referring to the two sides of the same rail.

Dam it. The two edges of the same rail. I knew I would get it right.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

Stoutman .@. wrote:
: Question #1: If I am off a little in parallel is their a trick to fix the
: slats so they all fit ? I was going to attach them to the rails with
: biscuits.

Make them a bit short. make sure the surface they rest on (the
relevant part of the external sides) is wide enough.


: Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for the
: slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
: thinking biscuits would work.

Forget biscuits. Two common means of doing this are to use a screw in the
middle of each slate (to allow for expansion) down into the side of the
bed, or join the slats together with a ribbon of canvas, then screw a few
of them in place (the canvas prevents to rest from sliding too much).

I would personally also forgoe the box spring, and just use more slats, and
lay the mattress on top of them directly. The box spring is pointless.


-- Andy Barss

Stoutman wrote:

I am working on my foot/head board rails. If I don't have the two sides
exactly parallel to each other than the slats will not fit at a constant
length from left to right.

Question #1: If I am off a little in parallel is their a trick to fix the
slats so they all fit ? I was going to attach them to the rails with
biscuits.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

Here is the bed:
http://www.garagewoodworks.com/Ellis_Mission_Bed.htm

I simply glue/screw a cleat on the lower part of each rail and lay the
slats on the cleats. Never had a problem with the slats falling down
although it does require that the rails be fairly parallel.
mahalo,
jo4hn

What I did with the two beds I made in regard the slats. I made a 1/4" wide
slots in the middle of the slats about an inch long X half of the thickness
deep of the slats.
I installed ¼ wooden dowels equally spaced into the supporting rails to
match the amount of slats.
I made sure that the mattress (size configurations) was fitting good, Then
I adjusted and numbered the slats accordingly to their best fit.
When I arrived at my daughter with the beds (not the mattress) flat packed
in my car every thing fitted very well.
Then she dropped the mattress and she had enough space to fold the sheets
and blankets under.
The lumber used to make the beds came from her land and was milled and air
dried on the side of her house.


"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
I am working on my foot/head board rails. If I don't have the two sides
exactly parallel to each other than the slats will not fit at a constant
length from left to right.

Question #1: If I am off a little in parallel is their a trick to fix the
slats so they all fit ? I was going to attach them to the rails with
biscuits.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

Here is the bed:
http://www.garagewoodworks.com/Ellis_Mission_Bed.htm

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

Andrew Barss wrote:

Forget biscuits. Two common means of doing this are to use a screw in the
middle of each slate (to allow for expansion) down into the side of the
bed, or join the slats together with a ribbon of canvas, then screw a few
of them in place (the canvas prevents to rest from sliding too much).

I would personally also forgoe the box spring, and just use more slats, and
lay the mattress on top of them directly. The box spring is pointless.

I second both of these. I've been using an Ikea slat bed for a number
of years now. No boxspring, just slats. The slats are joined by nylon
webbing stapled to each slat. The slats are not fastened to the bed at all.

Hasn't given any trouble.

Chris

On Feb 6, 1:22 pm, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:
I am working on my foot/head board rails. If I don't have the two sides
exactly parallel to each other than the slats will not fit at a constant
length from left to right.

Question #1: If I am off a little in parallel is their a trick to fix the
slats so they all fit ? I was going to attach them to the rails with
biscuits.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

Here is the bed:http://www.garagewoodworks.com/Ellis_Mission_Bed.htm

--
Stoutmanwww.garagewoodworks.com


I don't care for metal fasteners, so I dovetailed my slats in. They
are easy to remove with a tap, but I must admit, it took a bit of
fitting to get them all in.

OK I guess I didn't state my question clearly enough.

Let me try again.

I am not referring to the slats that support the mattress, I am referring to
the slats that are in the head board and foot board. In the cad drawing
there are 9 of them in the headboard and 9 in the foot board.

|---------rail edge--------|
|----------rail edge-------|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (SLATS)
|-------------------------|
|---------rail-------------|
| |
| | Bed Posts

If the two edges of the rails are not exactly parallel than the slats will
not fit from left to right.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
I am working on my foot/head board rails. If I don't have the two sides
exactly parallel to each other than the slats will not fit at a constant
length from left to right.

Question #1: If I am off a little in parallel is their a trick to fix the
slats so they all fit ? I was going to attach them to the rails with
biscuits.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

Here is the bed:
http://www.garagewoodworks.com/Ellis_Mission_Bed.htm

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

Stoutman wrote:

Let me try again.

I am not referring to the slats that support the mattress, I am referring to
the slats that are in the head board and foot board. In the cad drawing
there are 9 of them in the headboard and 9 in the foot board.

Ah...

If the gap between the top and bottom rails isn't uniform, then you'll
have to cut each of the "slats" slightly differerent lengths to fit them
perfectly. Real pain.

Probably better/easier to rework the joints between the rails and the
bed posts to ensure a uniform gap.

As for the actual join, as you say they're not structural. However, I
could see them being leaned on by someone in the bed. I'd probably go
with mortise and tenons. (Course, I don't actually own a biscuit
joiner, so I have no experience with how strong a joint it produces)

Chris

"Stoutman" wrote in message
OK I guess I didn't state my question clearly enough.

Let me try again.

I am not referring to the slats that support the mattress, I am referring
to
the slats that are in the head board and foot board. In the cad drawing
there are 9 of them in the headboard and 9 in the foot board.

|---------rail edge--------|
|----------rail edge-------|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (SLATS)
|-------------------------|
|---------rail-------------|
| |
| | Bed Posts

If the two edges of the rails are not exactly parallel than the slats will
not fit from left to right.

That's what I thought you meant.

Question #1: If I am off a little in parallel is their a trick to fix the
slats so they all fit ?

The trick is two fold: Batch cut the slats, with a stop on a table saw sled
or miter saw; and assemble the rails and slats as a sub-assembly before you
attach them to the legs, insuring they are parallel before doing so.

Sometime leaving a little vertical wiggle room in the mortise _length_ can
help you do that.

That said:

Slats/spindles are usually held in place with mortise and tenons. The
shoulders of the tenons, with the tenons sitting in a mortise a little
deeper than the length of the tenon, is what normally governs whether the
two rails are parallel.

You are obviously not doing this.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

I've never heard of using biscuits to hold slats/spindles in place, but, and
since strength is not an issue, and if the slats are thick and wide enough,
why not?

I often don't even glue slats/spindles into place when using M&T joints.

There is another way to do this ... with the slats housed in grooves that
run the length of both rails, with spacers the same thickness as the depth
of the groove between the slats as spacers.

I've never liked to do that and you still have to get the slat length
perfect to keep the rails parallel.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/02/07

Slats/spindles are usually held in place with mortise and tenons. The
shoulders of the tenons, with the tenons sitting in a mortise a little
deeper than the length of the tenon, is what normally governs whether the
two rails are parallel.

You are obviously not doing this.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for
the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

I've never heard of using biscuits to hold slats/spindles in place, but,
and
since strength is not an issue, and if the slats are thick and wide
enough,
why not?

The slats are 5/8" thick X 5 7/8" wide.

I might switch my plans back to M&T's. I thought that 18 biscuit joints
would be easier to do than 18 M&T's. But if I am sacrificing a lot of
strength than maybe I should suck it up and do the M&T's.



I often don't even glue slats/spindles into place when using M&T joints.

There is another way to do this ... with the slats housed in grooves that
run the length of both rails, with spacers the same thickness as the depth
of the groove between the slats as spacers.

I've never liked to do that and you still have to get the slat length
perfect to keep the rails parallel.

Good food for thought! Thank you.

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message

I might switch my plans back to M&T's. I thought that 18 biscuit joints
would be easier to do than 18 M&T's. But if I am sacrificing a lot of
strength than maybe I should suck it up and do the M&T's.

I don't think that you're sacrificing any strength, but I do prefer the M &
T for this particular application ... it is usually worth it to know that
you've done it in a traditional way, and that there is usually is a reason
why it has become "traditional".

The key to getting the rails parallel with the M&T joints is, obviously, to
cut the shoulders so that each slat is identical in length _between the
shoulders_ on each end.

I do this by first batch cutting the slats, then using a miter gage and the
table saw fence on the table saw as a reference to cut the tenons. This
insures the above.

Once that's done, you can shorten the tenons a bit so that they are not as
long as the mortises are deep, and the slat's shoulders, resting on the
rails and being the same length between shoulders, insures that the rails
are parallel.

Piece o' cake!


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/02/07

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
I am working on my foot/head board rails. If I don't have the two sides
exactly parallel to each other than the slats will not fit at a constant
length from left to right.

Question #1: If I am off a little in parallel is their a trick to fix the
slats so they all fit ? I was going to attach them to the rails with
biscuits.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

Here is the bed:
http://www.garagewoodworks.com/Ellis_Mission_Bed.htm

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com



Typically the side rail is "L" shaped with the bottom horizontal piece
facing towards the middle of the bed. The slats set on that horizontal
piece and typically are only laying on the rail and not attached.

Ah...

If the gap between the top and bottom rails isn't uniform, then you'll
have to cut each of the "slats" slightly differerent lengths to fit them
perfectly. Real pain.

Yep. I hope I don't have to do that.

Probably better/easier to rework the joints between the rails and the bed
posts to ensure a uniform gap.

Good point.

As for the actual join, as you say they're not structural. However, I
could see them being leaned on by someone in the bed. I'd probably go
with mortise and tenons. (Course, I don't actually own a biscuit joiner,
so I have no experience with how strong a joint it produces)

Chris

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:11:19 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:

OK I guess I didn't state my question clearly enough.

Let me try again.

I am not referring to the slats that support the mattress, I am referring to
the slats that are in the head board and foot board. In the cad drawing
there are 9 of them in the headboard and 9 in the foot board.

|---------rail edge--------|
|----------rail edge-------|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (SLATS)
|-------------------------|
|---------rail-------------|
| |
| | Bed Posts

If the two edges of the rails are not exactly parallel than the slats will
not fit from left to right.

I'm still missing something here. Are you concerned that the rail
itself is tapered? If that's the case, and it really is the best you
can do with what you've got, then you can probably sand the spindles
down so that they at least appear to be flush.

If it's a matter of the ends of the rails not lining up, there is an
easy way to make sure they do- Mark one rail first, then line up the
other with it, clamp them together so they don't slide around and
transfer your marks across to the other rail with a square. Assemble
that first, and then attach the finished head/foot board to the legs,
scribing and cutting the rails to fit if needed.

So long as you're careful when cutting the slats to length, and while
cutting your biscut slots, it should be self-aligning.

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:04:41 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:

Slats/spindles are usually held in place with mortise and tenons. The
shoulders of the tenons, with the tenons sitting in a mortise a little
deeper than the length of the tenon, is what normally governs whether the
two rails are parallel.

You are obviously not doing this.

Question #2: Do you think bscuits will be a strong of enough joint for
the
slats? There is no up and down forces pulling on the joint so I was
thinking biscuits would work.

I've never heard of using biscuits to hold slats/spindles in place, but,
and
since strength is not an issue, and if the slats are thick and wide
enough,
why not?

The slats are 5/8" thick X 5 7/8" wide.

I might switch my plans back to M&T's. I thought that 18 biscuit joints
would be easier to do than 18 M&T's. But if I am sacrificing a lot of
strength than maybe I should suck it up and do the M&T's.

They are easier, but you are sacrificing a *lot* of strength- think
about what you're doing here. Basicially, you're making simple butt
joints with biscuts for alignment. You'll get a little extra strength
from the biscuts, but the glue will still be sucked up by the end
grain in the spindles, starving the joint- and the biscuts just aren't
very strong.

When I do this, I usually use a dado in the rails. It's really pretty
easy, and not much weaker than a M&T joint- but you do need to be more
careful when sizing the "mortise" dado, as you won't have shoulders on
the slats to cover up any mistakes or gaps.

I'm still missing something here. Are you concerned that the rail
itself is tapered?

Yes. The slightest taper will throw off the slat alignment. This is a
king bed, so my rails are 76 3/4" long which makes any taper error more
exagerated due to the length.


If that's the case, and it really is the best you
can do with what you've got, then you can probably sand the spindles
down so that they at least appear to be flush.

If it's a matter of the ends of the rails not lining up, there is an
easy way to make sure they do- Mark one rail first, then line up the
other with it, clamp them together so they don't slide around and
transfer your marks across to the other rail with a square. Assemble
that first, and then attach the finished head/foot board to the legs,
scribing and cutting the rails to fit if needed.

So long as you're careful when cutting the slats to length, and while
cutting your biscut slots, it should be self-aligning.

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
I'm still missing something here. Are you concerned that the rail
itself is tapered?

Yes. The slightest taper will throw off the slat alignment. This is a
king bed, so my rails are 76 3/4" long which makes any taper error more
exagerated due to the length.

If you use M & T joints to join the slats to the rails, this will only pose
a problem when attaching the rail/slat subassembly to the posts.

That's why I said earlier to leave yourself some _vertical_ wiggle room in
the mortises on the post (those mortises for the rail tenons attaching the
rails to the post) to allow for any "taper error" on the rails.

Taper of one or both rails should pose NO problem whatsoever with making the
inside edges of the rails parallel, as long as you've properly batch cut
slats, and batch cut tenons, as previously described.

If you have a bow in one or both rails, then you've got a problem ... but
one generally easily solved with edge joining the opposing edges which abut
the slats.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

Hello Harvey:

Could I have a copy of your cad drawing of your bed?

TIA


Tom Buckley
tbuckley^canada.com

^=@

***


On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:28:02 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:


"If I don't have the two sides exactly parallel to each other than the slats
will not fit at a constant length from left to right."

I am referring to the two sides of the same rail.

If you use M & T joints to join the slats to the rails, this will only
pose
a problem when attaching the rail/slat subassembly to the posts.

I'm definitely gonna go with M&T's now.

That's why I said earlier to leave yourself some _vertical_ wiggle room in
the mortises on the post (those mortises for the rail tenons attaching the
rails to the post) to allow for any "taper error" on the rails.

Got ya. Ok. But if one of the rails has to move up a tad on one end to
make up for any taper error, than the joint for that rail to post will not
be 90 degrees. Correct?

This is all worst case scenario for me. I'm not sure if taper will be a
problem at all. I didn't start thinking about this potential problem until
recently (after starting).


Taper of one or both rails should pose NO problem whatsoever with making
the
inside edges of the rails parallel, as long as you've properly batch cut
slats, and batch cut tenons, as previously described.

If you have a bow in one or both rails, then you've got a problem ... but
one generally easily solved with edge joining the opposing edges which
abut
the slats.

Yep. I don't think I have a bow. All edges have been jointed.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

Tue, Feb 6, 2007, 4:22pm @. (Stoutman) doth need to get back to sleep:
I am working on my foot/head board rails.snip

I've read the other posts too. Check this. A pichoor is worth a
bunch o' words. http://www.medievalwood.org/charles/bed.html



JOAT
Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly will
acquire the skill to do difficult things easily.
- Johann Von Schiller

Did you want the CAD file or the JPEG rendering?

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

wrote in message
...
Hello Harvey:

Could I have a copy of your cad drawing of your bed?

TIA


Tom Buckley
tbuckley^canada.com

^=@

***


On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:28:02 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:


"If I don't have the two sides exactly parallel to each other than the
slats
will not fit at a constant length from left to right."

I am referring to the two sides of the same rail.

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:20:29 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:

Did you want the CAD file or the JPEG rendering?

Either/both would be nice. :)

A couple JPEGS are on my webpage. If you want a different angle let me
know.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com