Howdy,

I have some vague recollection that the addition of vinegar
will retard the setup of white glue.

Is that correct? Is there another, or better way?

This is, by the way, for a very low strength application,
but I would love to be able to extend the setup time if I
could.

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...

Howdy,

I have some vague recollection that the addition of vinegar
will retard the setup of white glue.

Is that correct? Is there another, or better way?


I don't know about retard but it will make white glue fail.

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:20:46 -0500, "C & E"
wrote:


"Kenneth" wrote in message
.. .

Howdy,

I have some vague recollection that the addition of vinegar
will retard the setup of white glue.

Is that correct? Is there another, or better way?

This is, by the way, for a very low strength application,
but I would love to be able to extend the setup time if I
could.

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Why not switch to a glue made for extended working time? I believe Titebond
II fills that description. If not someone will let us know.


Well be careful because it is easy to confuse things.
TiteBond II has a short open time of 5min
TiteBond III has an open time of 10min

Those are both from the Standard Line

They have a Shop Line and that includes the *Extend* products and
these have open times of 12-15min.....IIRC

BTW- Vinegar will act as a solvent for these glues and we've used it
to loosen up cured glue. I've heard of others using it to thin out
overly thick glue but I would not do this for any case where strength
was an issue.

You can also extend the open time of any wood glue by following a few
simple steps. It may be a bit messy but will work to give you an
additional 4-5min.

Apply a very generous coat of glue to both surfaces. and wait 2-3 min.
If possible go about some of your tasks. Then apply another generous
coat over the previous.
Because the first coat gets sucked into the wood, the second coat has
a tendency to cure slower than normal. The bond will be OK because the
first coat bonds well to the second coat and the first coat gets into
the woods pores.......I think...
I have tested the results of this several time and always get wood
failure.

Good Luck,
J

"Joe Bemier" wrote in message

TiteBond III has an open time of 10min

I'm of the opinion that their marketing department got a bit carried away on
this particular claim. I've found the open time to be much closer to 7
minutes, or less, no matter the ambient temperature.

A bit disturbing because it's not a claim that generates a lot of confidence
in a substance that holds together the woodworking world ... and makes you
wonder what else in the product doesn't live up to claims/expectations?

(... and I sincerely hope I am just exercising a bit of age based cynicism.)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Joe Bemier" wrote in message

TiteBond III has an open time of 10min

I'm of the opinion that their marketing department got a bit carried away
on
this particular claim. I've found the open time to be much closer to 7
minutes, or less, no matter the ambient temperature.

A bit disturbing because it's not a claim that generates a lot of
confidence
in a substance that holds together the woodworking world ... and makes you
wonder what else in the product doesn't live up to claims/expectations?



Well for starters TB III is not truly water proof as indicated by the tests
it passes. IIRC the tests never mention water proof, only water resistant.
This is not to say that TB III is not a very high quality glue. I prefer TB
III as it dries to a more natural wood color.

Swingman wrote:
"Joe Bemier" wrote in message

TiteBond III has an open time of 10min

I'm of the opinion that their marketing department got a bit carried away on
this particular claim. I've found the open time to be much closer to 7
minutes, or less, no matter the ambient temperature.

A bit disturbing because it's not a claim that generates a lot of confidence
in a substance that holds together the woodworking world ... and makes you
wonder what else in the product doesn't live up to claims/expectations?

(... and I sincerely hope I am just exercising a bit of age based cynicism.)


Coming from the boat building world, the only observation I can make
about wood working glues is that they are very useful as long as you
don't need long open times or a waterproof glue, because they provide
neither.

Epoxy is about your only real choice if you require long open times
and/or a waterproof adhesive, especially since Aerolite 306 is basically
no longer available.

Lew


Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
. net...
since Aerolite 306 is basically
no longer available.

On what planet?

CW wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
. net...
since Aerolite 306 is basically
no longer available.

On what planet?

When is the last time you tried to buy some?

Even Aircraft Spruce & Specialty quit selling it.

Lew

There are still a number of places that sell it though none in the US as far
as I could find. Due to the recent buyout, it's likely to be this way for a
while but should straiten out eventually.
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
.net...
CW wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
. net...
since Aerolite 306 is basically
no longer available.

On what planet?

When is the last time you tried to buy some?

Even Aircraft Spruce & Specialty quit selling it.

Lew

Well for starters TB III is not truly water proof as indicated by the tests
it passes. IIRC the tests never mention water proof, only water resistant.

Dunno about the tests, but I have a bottle right in front of me, and it
says "Waterproof" TWICE right on the front label.
Haven't tested the waterproofness or even pushed the open time limits,
but I'm happy with it as a normal wood glue.
Andy

Andy wrote:

Dunno about the tests, but I have a bottle right in front of me, and it
says "Waterproof" TWICE right on the front label.

snip

If you want waterproof, it's called epoxy, not TiteBond.

Lew

"Andy" wrote in message

Dunno about the tests, but I have a bottle right in front of me, and it
says "Waterproof" TWICE right on the front label.
Haven't tested the waterproofness or even pushed the open time limits,
but I'm happy with it as a normal wood glue.

It's a good PVA glue, and the first bottle I usually reach for ... but shame
on the wooddorker who blindly believes their marketing twaddle on both
counts.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/16/06

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well for starters TB III is not truly water proof as indicated by the
tests
it passes. IIRC the tests never mention water proof, only water
resistant.

Dunno about the tests, but I have a bottle right in front of me, and it
says "Waterproof" TWICE right on the front label.
Haven't tested the waterproofness or even pushed the open time limits,
but I'm happy with it as a normal wood glue.
Andy


I think the bottle is water proof, not the contents.

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 06:17:24 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

If you want waterproof, it's called epoxy, not TiteBond.

Lew

Hi Lew,

Even that is not as simple as it might appear...

Not all epoxy resins are waterproof.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

Even that is not as simple as it might appear...

Not all epoxy resins are waterproof.

I don't know about your epoxy, but my epoxy is waterproof.

Kind of works best for marine applicationsG.

Lew

Got to agree with you here Lew, I've never seen an epoxy that wasn't
waterproof.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
nk.net...
Kenneth wrote:

Even that is not as simple as it might appear...

Not all epoxy resins are waterproof.

I don't know about your epoxy, but my epoxy is waterproof.

Kind of works best for marine applicationsG.

Lew

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:26:58 GMT, "CW"
wrote:

Got to agree with you here Lew, I've never seen an epoxy that wasn't
waterproof.

Hello again,

You might want to look into that further, particularly if
you are using epoxy for boat building...

No, not all epoxies are waterproof to a level acceptable for
marine applications.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

You might want to look into that further, particularly if
you are using epoxy for boat building...

No, not all epoxies are waterproof to a level acceptable for
marine applications.

Let's cut to the chase.

What epoxies aren't waterproof?

Lew

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:26:03 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Let's cut to the chase.

What epoxies aren't waterproof?

Lew

Hi Lew,

If you do some reading on any of the boatbuilding groups, or
at the sites of many of the manufacturers of epoxies you
will learn more.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

If you do some reading on any of the boatbuilding groups, or
at the sites of many of the manufacturers of epoxies you
will learn more.

Having built a 55 ft boat with about 25,000 lbs of epoxy, not sure
what a boat building group is going to give me the formulators such as
Gougeon, S3, Jeffco, etc haven't already provided.

What epoxy isn't waterproof?

Cut the bull ****, fish or cut bait.

Lew

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...

Howdy,

I have some vague recollection that the addition of vinegar
will retard the setup of white glue.

Is that correct? Is there another, or better way?

This is, by the way, for a very low strength application,
but I would love to be able to extend the setup time if I
could.

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Why not switch to a glue made for extended working time? I believe Titebond
II fills that description. If not someone will let us know.

In other words, you don't know. O.K.

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:26:03 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Let's cut to the chase.

What epoxies aren't waterproof?

Lew

Hi Lew,

If you do some reading on any of the boatbuilding groups, or
at the sites of many of the manufacturers of epoxies you
will learn more.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 03:36:25 GMT, "CW"
wrote:

In other words, you don't know. O.K.

"Kenneth" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:26:03 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Let's cut to the chase.

What epoxies aren't waterproof?

Lew

Hi Lew,

If you do some reading on any of the boatbuilding groups, or
at the sites of many of the manufacturers of epoxies you
will learn more.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


Hi Lew & CW,

Let's separate this in to its two components (no pun
intended):

First you win. I am wrong, and you are right.

Now, with that out of the way, let's take a look at the
other component, epoxy.

You might want to check he http://www.westsystem.com/

Click on "additives" and you will see this:

422 Barrier Coat Additive

A proprietary blend designed to improve cured epoxy's
moisture-exclusion effectiveness. 422 is used as a barrier
coating additive to help prevent gelcoat blistering. 422
also increases the epoxy's abrasion resistance. Cures to a
light gray color. Add to mixed resin/hardener at the rate of
15 to 20% by weight-3 tablespoons per 8 fl. oz. epoxy
(approximately 32 oz. per B group).

So, were I to follow your lead, I would ask that you find a
similar product sold to improve the "moisture-exclusion
effectiveness" of something that we would all agree is
waterproof such as "glass."

Might either of you want to "quit the bull****" and "cut to
the chase" on that effort?

But seriously, it may be that we just understand the meaning
of the word "waterproof" differently.

I was certainly not trying to suggest that cured epoxy would
melt like a sugar cube when exposed to water.

But, it is my understanding that it is not completely
impervious to water damage either. The fact that West
Systems sells an additive to improve the moisture-exclusion
effectiveness of its own (highly regarded) epoxy would seem
to support my understanding.

Might I be wrong? Of course...

All the best,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

422 Barrier Coat Additive

A proprietary blend designed to improve cured epoxy's
moisture-exclusion effectiveness. 422 is used as a barrier
coating additive to help prevent gelcoat blistering. 422
also increases the epoxy's abrasion resistance. Cures to a
light gray color. Add to mixed resin/hardener at the rate of
15 to 20% by weight-3 tablespoons per 8 fl. oz. epoxy
(approximately 32 oz. per B group).

Aluminum powder (422), as described above, is used as an additive
specifically to provide a barrier coat (About 5 mils per coat max)
over a pock marked (blistered) polyester surface on a fiberglass boat.

It is strictly a repair process.

Definitely not an adhesive application.

But, it is my understanding that it is not completely
impervious to water damage either. The fact that West
Systems sells an additive to improve the moisture-exclusion
effectiveness of its own (highly regarded) epoxy would seem
to support my understanding.

Might I be wrong? Of course...

It is a matter of molecule size.

There are only about 4-5 manufacturers of base resin (part A)in the world.

Ciba, Dow & Shell come to mind.

There are litterly thousands of formulators such as Gougeon (West)who
provide epoxy systems for final application.

Basic epoxy for wood working applications can be considered waterproof.

You can improve the "waterproofness" by reducing the permeability
(reject smaller molecules) of that surface by applying epoxy coatings
specifically engineered for that task.

It is strictly a matter of chemistry.

The fact remains that general purpose epoxy is basically waterproof.


Lew